Our Most Embarrassing Characteristic in 4119 Words
by Jeff Sullivan on May 27, 2009 10:17 PM PDT
in Seattle Mariners Stats
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Print(What, you thought I was going to focus on the positives?)
I know that Yuni generated a decent outcome out of that at bat, but positive reinforcement of this sort of behavior is the last thing he needs. If he knew how to identify balls and strikes, he could've given himself an opportunity to do something even better.
Meanwhile, when Adrian Beltre sees a shooting star, I imagine he wishes nothing but pain and grave misfortune upon the creator of Enhanced Gameday.
Remember when I said this team is way worse to watch on Gameday than it is on TV? That's because, while they can look bad on TV, Gameday makes them look like a bunch of damn idiots.
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That correctly captures Yuni and Beltre.
You can see it on TV but it’s much more pronounced on Gameday. Why can’t they see it? I can’t imagine that they haven’t. This is their job, their career, this is what pays the rent. Surely they have seen it. Why can’t they make the adjustments that are necessary to improve their at bats? Both look absolutely goofy. They cannot want to look like that. What are they thinking?
Please see my apology in the 5/26 Game Thread (1st one). Thank you to everyone who has already forgiven my mistake.
I can't speak to Beltre
but with Yuni, as long as he makes contact, he considers it a win. He doesn’t care where the ball is thrown. He thinks his goal is to hit it.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 27, 2009 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm a little confused.
We both have real jobs. We want to do the best we can at our jobs. He’s got a job. He and Beltre (I must include Beltre in this) must want to be the best that they can be at their jobs. Contact isn’t good enough if you are a professional baseball player. Even though old fashioned statistics like batting average count contact, newer metrics count things that make much more sense. You have to be productive. The contact only counts if you get on base or move the runner along; the newer metrics count when the batter is actually productive to helping their team win. Why can’t they see that any time they get on base is worth more than any time they merely make contact, and erase the runner currently on base, or just replace him? Maybe I’ll complain about walks next.
Please see my apology in the 5/26 Game Thread (1st one). Thank you to everyone who has already forgiven my mistake.
by Sinking Away on May 27, 2009 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Yuni's been developed in a coaching culture that valued contact over everything else
breaking into the big leagues with the Bavasi Mariners didn’t help anything. At this point Wakamatsu & co. are telling him stuff he’s pretty much never heard before, and that makes it a long shot that anything’s going to change.
Beltre’s just in a slump. He’s always been a bit of a hacker, but he looks to be trying too hard to make something happen.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 27, 2009 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions
That seems to be the general consensus, that Beltre is trying too hard
whether it is coming back from the injuries, the lack of offense from anyone else, the contract year, all of the above …
My unsubstantiated hunch:
A lot of players have coaches throughout their development that teach them these things. For example, when I played in high school, my friend’s dad wasn’t a coach but was an active team booster. He told us that striking out was preferable to walking, because there’s no honor in walking. It was the pussy way out.
Also a hunch: I think this is particularly prevalent in Latin America. As they say, “you can’t walk off the island.”
I can hear both of you. But that doesn't change what I hope the current coaches are saying.
A walk is a good as a run, it will always be a good as a run. Are you guys telling me that Yuni (and I’ll stick with Yuni for this) doesn’t want or feel the need to be the best he can be? He could make millions of dollars. He has the potential to be a very good SS and a very good MLB hitter. Does that not matter to him?
Please see my apology in the 5/26 Game Thread (1st one). Thank you to everyone who has already forgiven my mistake.
by Sinking Away on May 27, 2009 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions
You're talking about Yuni completely changing his approach as a hitter.
That just doesn’t happen with players at this level. They can improve, but Yuni is never going to be anything close to patient. It’s who he is.
A player’s approach at the plate develops fairly early on and is based on a ton of different factors. Coaching and improved pitch recognition are parts of it, but for the most part plate discipline is something you’re born with (so to speak) rather than a skill a hitter can learn.
And really, I think the problem with Yuni is that he thinks he is as good as he can be; if I may be a bit more pessimistic, I think it’s entirely likely that this is as good as he can be. Lots of players with all the physical ability in the world never amount to squat, while other players with more pedestrian (in context) physical abilities become productive players. It’s not 100% physical ability.
by Aaron Campeau on May 27, 2009 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm assuming you mean a walk is as good as a HIT, not a run, right?
That said, it’s not. A hit is more valuable than a walk because it can drive in runners and lead to errors.
To your bigger point, I don’t know. Yuni might know deep down that getting on base is more important than making contact. But I think that when you’re in the box, you do what you’re used to doing. Hitting is a reactionary skill. I’m not sure how much coaching can change that. That’s why I have zero hope for Yuni improving his plate discipline. He is what he is.
Yes, I meant a walk is a good as a hit.
I admit, I’ve never played this game at any upper level and I don’t now how much a coach’s influence can affect performance. It just seems to me, and I may be completely wrong, that when you get to this level you should be looking at your immediate coach for guidance. You aren’t in American Legion League anymore. This is real and they are paying the rent. Your at bats are recorded on Gameday. Don’t swing at ball 2 or 3 or 4. This is where you make your money.
Please see my apology in the 5/26 Game Thread (1st one). Thank you to everyone who has already forgiven my mistake.
by Sinking Away on May 27, 2009 11:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I understand what you're saying, but I just don't think it's true.
Yes, they are the best of the best, but by the time they reach the majors, they’re pretty much set in their ways. There are exceptions, of course, but for the most part, it’s hard to change years and years of ingrained habit.
Thank you.
This is hard to believe, but it makes some sense and you’re having a rough night here, so I’ll go with it.
(But why in world wouldn’t someone adapt to what obviously calls for a change of direction on their part)?
Please see my apology in the 5/26 Game Thread (1st one). Thank you to everyone who has already forgiven my mistake.
by Sinking Away on May 28, 2009 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Because they can't.
Seriously. It’s not possible. Hitting is reaction. A hitter’s plate approach is innate by the time they reach the majors.
by Aaron Campeau on May 28, 2009 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions
I think minute improvements are possible, but a hacker is never going to start drawing walks like crazy.
by Aaron Campeau on May 28, 2009 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Jim Edmonds went from being somewhat of a hacker to being one of the most patient hitters in all of baseball once he reached his 30s
but that’s the only case I can think of.
Jose Cruz Jr. kind of learned a little
by Jeff Sullivan on May 28, 2009 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions
It took A-Rod two or three years in the majors to learn how to draw a walk.
And he never became a league-leadng walker until about year 2000, but that’s a pretty natural development when someone is that great of a threat at the plate. I’m sure there’s a good deal more examples, but ac and teej’s points still hold true for most players.
There's a difference between young players adjusting to the majors and normal aging curves
and hitters that are inherently impatient becoming patient.
by Aaron Campeau on May 28, 2009 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I was agreeing with him, and what ac said
there’s something different when a 24 year old starts to take some walks, and when a player over 30 does.
Ok, that makes sense.
I’m totally inexperienced here, but I believe you and your answer works for me.
Please see my apology in the 5/26 Game Thread (1st one). Thank you to everyone who has already forgiven my mistake.
by Sinking Away on May 28, 2009 12:10 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't know if "can't" is the right word.
But the effort it would take to work on it is not something that most players/teams are willing to commit to, especially since its success is a huge question mark.
...and now I'm here
I'm having a great night.
M’s win, Dexter, MLB 09: The Show, got my laundry done, tomorrow’s payday!
To add one other thought here
it’s all about muscle memory. To change direction requires reprogramming that muscle memory — and the longer you’ve been doing things the same way, the more deeply embedded that muscle memory is, and the harder it is to change.
by The Ancient Mariner on May 28, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Many baseball players are raging idiots.
For many, their talent has nothing to do with intelligence. As a result, you get the Port-O-Let cleaners in the exact same league making the exact same money as players that could have been CEOs, and everything in between. You’re trusting a profoundly stupid person that just happens to have an athletic talent to do the thinking part of the job correctly, or to understand the basic principles required to complete that job, and that is where your error lies. The retarded dog at the dog park doesn’t think it is retarded.
Also, and more accurately, the comments above.
...and now I'm here
Wow! What a complete shame. I guess I am ignorant and wasn't expecting that.
I always thought that since only a select few (relatively speaking) would ever make it to the big leagues, they would be the best of the best. You are probably right that a couple of total slackers would make it and be better in their positions than anyone else in their postions.
Please see my apology in the 5/26 Game Thread (1st one). Thank you to everyone who has already forgiven my mistake.
by Sinking Away on May 27, 2009 11:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Teej and Jeff are more accurate in their explanation.
I am just also pointing out that you can have a sub-70 IQ and possibly still play baseball well. And since they are paid the same as any other player of similar skill, regardless of the other players’ intelligence, they can continue to play without realizing that without baseball they’d be in a home getting spoon-fed bagels.
...and now I'm here
I'm pretty sure a clinically retarded person wouldn't be very good at baseball.
by Aaron Campeau on May 27, 2009 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I've never noticed that Wlad and Felix have the exact same reaction
and I only just now noticed that Felix isn’t the one clapping.
by Aaron Campeau on May 27, 2009 11:45 PM PDT up reply actions
A new day, a new way...
The 09 Mariners make their way to their next series:
"Even the stupidest of men, by some instinct of nature, is convinced on his own that with more observations his risk of failure is diminished."
-Jacques Bernoulli Ars conjectandi 1713
by Bearskin Rugburn on May 28, 2009 6:24 AM PDT up reply actions
It's not really that though.
Some people aren’t that smart, but they have other abilities that allow them to succeed in life. Stupid people can’t help being stupid.
by Aaron Campeau on May 27, 2009 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions
If You Think Adrian Beltre is Bad And/Or Overrated
I’m afraid you might be correct
by lemonverbena on May 28, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Gameday just takes all the guessing out of it
by Jeff Sullivan on May 27, 2009 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions
As inept as this year's offense is.
At least the team isn’t starting Jose Vidro at DH and Miguel Cairo at 1st base this year.
2009 Mariners wOBA*: .311
2008 Mariners wOBA^: .325
The New York Times is a publicly traded company so in a sense you're probably right.
by Aaron Campeau on May 28, 2009 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions
No, not in a sense
Carlos Slim bought a whacking great chunk of the NYT a while back on utterly ridiculous terms (in his favor); they needed a huge cash infusion to stay afloat.
by The Ancient Mariner on May 29, 2009 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions
I am aware of this. He owns something like 6.5% of Times stock.
There is a rumor that he is interested in purchasing the Times outright, but at this point it remains just that. 6.5% does not make him the owner.
by Aaron Campeau on May 29, 2009 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
A Mexican owns a little less than 7% of The New York Times.
A big chunk for sure, but it’s still the Sulzbergers’ paper.
In your defense what the fuck is a caret
by Aaron Campeau on May 27, 2009 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Latin for 'there's something missing here'
"Even the stupidest of men, by some instinct of nature, is convinced on his own that with more observations his risk of failure is diminished."
-Jacques Bernoulli Ars conjectandi 1713
by Bearskin Rugburn on May 28, 2009 6:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Aww man.
So Beltre and Lopez not hitting along with Ibanez being gone really hurts the team. And what hurts even more is that Raul is tied for the league lead in home runs this year.
I realize this.
I know that basically the improved OF defense almost evens things out. Isn’t there a possibility that Ibanez would’ve been DH this year had he stayed?
Had he stayed? Possible.
Ibanez staying would have been stupid though. Incredibly stupid.
Jamie Moyer has a better wOBA than the Seattle Mariners.
...and now I'm here
Nyjer Morgan has a higher UZR than the Mariners
by Mariner John on May 27, 2009 11:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Nyjer Morgan is a good defender.
I find that fact far less impressive. A team UZR of 12.5 would be fantastic.
...and now I'm here
I love you.
Please see my apology in the 5/26 Game Thread (1st one). Thank you to everyone who has already forgiven my mistake.
by Sinking Away on May 27, 2009 11:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Our 2003 team wOBA* was .347 (above average)
and that group of positions players saved about 105 runs on defense.
Had a guy ask me about Aardsma yesterday
Him and Batista could very easily be shipped out of here pretty fast, along with guys like Johnson and Cordero if they ever show up. Just don’t expect much of a return.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 28, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Johnson's basically ready
but I’d imagine his value hasn’t quite recovered from the whole missed-a-year-rehabbing thing.
I’d hope we could get ~ what we got for Arthur Rhodes or Ron Villone (I’d love better results, but that’s the level of return I’d exepct/hope for).
Whatever man
prospects for nothing and chicks for free. If we can keep turning scrap heap rehab project relievers into upper minors starting pitching the organization is going to be in good shape in no time.
"Even the stupidest of men, by some instinct of nature, is convinced on his own that with more observations his risk of failure is diminished."
-Jacques Bernoulli Ars conjectandi 1713
by Bearskin Rugburn on May 28, 2009 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I can see the Mariners as a top 5 system in 2010
by Graham MacAree on May 28, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
It's really up to the player development staff
I’d really love to know more about what they do and how their methods/approach differ from their predecessors.
You can tell someone to swing less, but you can't tell them to recognize strikes from balls better at this point in their career
Yuni might draw a few more walks just by swinging less, and maybe he’ll see some better pitches for a while when pitchers see that he’s not getting himself out on balls as often, but he won’t swing at those either because his pitch recognition is awful and he’s basically just not swinging at anything to try to overcompensate for the massive flaw in his game. Just telling him not to swing at crappy pitches won’t help until he learns to identify what is a crappy pitch and what is a good pitch to hit, which personally I don’t think he will because he is a retarded latin monkey.
Friendly Poster from VEB just asking you guys something
We have a situation in St Louis in need of a 3B, most likely for the rest of the year. What do you think that Mo would have to offer in order to get Beltre, if we paid him the rest of his money?
Allen Craig (3B prospect) and PJ Walters (RHP prospect with great K numbers)?
I don't think the M's would do that
Hey there Friendly Poster. My humble opinion:
According to Baseball America, neither Craig nor Walters is amongst the Cards’ top 10 prospects. Not saying BA is the ultimate authority, but I think it’d take at least one top-5 or 6 prospect in someone’s organization to get Beltre. Absent getting at least one legit prospect, the M’s would be better served keeping Beltre and hoping he got his numbers back to normal by the end of the season and got his Type A status back (which would give them two draft picks far more valuable than Craig and Walters).
The M’s are most likely going to value the “if we paid him the rest of his money” at about zero. The M’s aren’t hurting for money. They aren’t flush with it right now due to a near-empty Safeco, but this isn’t the Nationals or Pirates.
Just my $.02 – I don’t speak for anyone else. Perhaps some of the other folks around here disagree with me.
Ideally, we'd get a lefty infield prospect - GMZ's desperate for those.
Someone along the lines of Nick Noonan or Conor Gillaspie in SF. I think one of those guys (a solid B level prospect) would be a fair core of the deal for Beltre. I don’t know the Cards system as well, so I don’t know if you guys have someone similar.
Actually, in this economy, it's probably worth more
since words aren’t scarce by any means.
by The Ancient Mariner on May 29, 2009 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions
This is an excellent
You are absolutely
...and now I'm here
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