The Miguel Batista Memorial BookcLLub: Pride and Prejudice and Zombies
So, welcome to the first discussion forum for Pride and Prejudice and Zombies! You should have read through chapter 24, so if you haven't read that far, either don't read the thread (yet) or don't complain about spoilers.
Discussion questions/topics
1. First impressions (and second impressions, since we read a third of the novel)
2. Comparisons between Pride and Prejudice vs. Pride and Prejudice and Zombies
3. Characters so far - strengths, weaknesses, who is likable/dislikable, and why?
4. How has the view of marriage changed both relative to time, distance from England and the number of zombies roaming the American countryside?
5. Please pose other discussion questions!
EDIT: Need to discuss what book we should read next so people can get started acquiring it. The leading suggestion right now is The Avenger of Blood by Miguel Batista, but please make suggestions.
The Avenger of Blood - Miguel Batista
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Do you like this story?
Comments
Unfortunately I have been too tired up here to really read anything yet.
I’ll have to catch up on the next installment. I’ll be at home so I’ll have more free time to read.
Fear the NPE
I'll take a crack at this.
It’s been a long time since I’ve read P & P, and there’s no way in hell I’m going back to it for comparisons sake. I do remember the discussions at the time inferred Elizabeth is possibly a lesbian. Probably due to her athleticism, independence, and self confidence, among other things I’m sure. Interestingly (or not) this point was raised in the afterword.
Personally I don’t understand this issue at all. Her father is raising his daughters with the intent of instilling those very qualities, how or why this would make them lesbian mystifies me. Elizabeth and Jane being single and without male partners is more of a statement to the weakness and general lack of acceptable males in the vicinity. Why do so many things have to become an issue of gayness. Weird.
I find Elizabeth and her father by far the most interesting characters, Mr. Darcy at this point has not been developed completely. Her mother needs to be eaten by zombies, the sooner the better. Cousin Collins the fat friar makes a nice comedic foil, also serving to highlight Elizabeths independence, her mothers idiocy, and her fathers supportive yet distant nature. I really enjoy her fathers character, I’m still processing exactly what it is that I enjoy so much.
The zombification of this novel is brilliant, about the time you (meaning me) start losing interest in wading through the convoluted sentence structure, KAPOW! zombie attack.
Also, there are quite a few cock and ball jokes. Much like ‘Love Johjima’, they are rather random and therefore very amusing.
Regarding the question of gayness
The issue comes up all the time, because of how closeted homosexuality had to be in the past. There are whole fascinating documentaries (like The Celluloid Closet) dedicated to dissecting the intricate ways that writers used to insinuate gayness because they couldn’t just be open about it.
People still wonder if Abraham Lincoln was gay (there is actual scholorship about this)… not because they’re paranoid idiots… they wonder because we know there have always been about the same percentage of homosexuals, but in the past it was almost entirely hidden. There’s nothing inherently homophobic or homocentric about pondering the sexual orientation of historical or fictional characters.
"There’s nothing inherently homophobic or homocentric about pondering the sexual orientation of historical or fictional characters."
I think there has to be because otherwise why would anyone care? It’s a pretty boring topic.
by Graham MacAree on May 26, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
The topic I do find most interesting is the stucture of the social classes.
Does anyone else find either novel to be intentional commentary on the stratification of English society in this period?
It's all over the novel.
It’s important to remember that P&P takes place right the generation after the American Revolution and even sooner after the French Revolution (and during the Napoleonic Wars). Plus there’s those strangely Orientalized East India Company men coming back from India with 10,000 + pound fortunes that scare the hell out of the establish British elite. So this is a time of profound worry and bewilderment for the British upper class – particularly the top 400 families who owned almost all the key titles of nobility, the biggest estates, and the entries to Parliament, but also in the more fluid, permeable gentry.
These two chapters I a read a ways back seem very relevant – they’re not required reading, obviously, but there’s some amusing stuff – like the British officers organizing a legit medieval jousting tournement to cheer themselves up after word reached them of the Battle of Saratoga. Ha-hah!
Britons: Forging the Nation 1707-1837 by Linda Colley (start on page 147, Chapter 4: Domination – go to google books and type "linda colley Britons domination")
http://www.amazon.com/Britons-1707-1837-Professor-Linda-Colley/dp/0300059256
And the Modern British State: An Historical Introduction by Philip Harling (start on page 32, go to google books and type "Fiscal-Military State and its Discontents 1715-1815")
I guess I'm saying that the tippy-top upper classes were becoming more stratefied in this period, but the lower gentry was (I believe) becoming more permeable.
Also, there’s that taylor, Sir what’s his face, who got a knighthood after he became a successful local politician. I wonder how typical that was (or if knighthood’s exclusivity and meaning fluctuated from period to period).
"I do remember the discussions at the time inferred Elizabeth is possibly a lesbian."
Really? Must have had a different Lit class than I did ….
The instructor that assigned the book was very focused on the subject of Elizabeths sexual orientation.
To the point it became tedious. The entire discussion and analysis by the class following the book was seriously lacking in any other areas I found personally interesting.
I thought the class structure of the time was much more interesting, as in how much of what is revealed in the book actually true or an exaggeration? Also, the language and style of prose used in the era. Where did that come from and how did it develop? Jumping that far back in literature, it’s a bit jarring when you haven’t read it in awhile.
And that is a much more traditional way at looking at the book.
Elizabeth and her family being part of the ‘new’ middle class, and Mr Darcy being upper class (’tho not nobility, as Lady Catherine is)
I seem to remember that P&P in its true form did have some innuendo
Can anyone else recall this?
by Kirsten Schlewitz on May 26, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
No .... and I have re-read it fairly recently.
“Probably due to her athleticism, independence, and self confidence, among other things I’m sure”
Athleticism? She walks— which middle-class country girls did; another poke at classism, as Mr Bingley’s sisters profess amazement at her walking every where but her peers do not.
The chapters seem really short
Is that how P&P is or did they condense things down?
I really hate the Mother, she’s such a boring bitty. I realize it was a different era but ugh, I would not want her as a mother in law.
I agree with Kermit that I like how every time the book starts to drag a zombie sequence seems to show up. I don’t think I could read this book very far without the added zombies and the irreverence that is there.
The father just seems like such a snarky bastard in this version.
Paris Hilton, Burberry plaid, reality TV, mullets, Zima, Dubya, and the Sonics being sold to Oklahoma City. - Yahoo Answer results for "7 Signs of the Apocalypse"
He's snarky and also rejects the standards of his class. By that I mean his focus isn't on his daughter marrying well,
but their personal happiness with their partners. The rest of the women in the novel seem so vacant and uninteresting, all they seem to care about is the social standing and finances of their suitors. Blech.
I can’t quite put my finger on exactly why I like her father so much, probably isn’t any one thing in particular. Also probably doesn’t matter.
Mr. Bennett is one of the most interesting characters in both books.
He is a man who has ‘married beneath him’— not socially, but in intellect, and is paying for it in later life. Several of the adaptations (the recent one, particularly) have played Mrs Bennett as of a lower class, and she isn’t. In the book, she comes from a solidly middle-class family (her brother is a lawyer), and Mr Bennett evidently married her because she was a pretty, vivacious girl— not realizing that she wasn’t anything more. One of the reasons that Elizabeth & Jane are his favorite daughters, as they have a few thoughts to rub together.
Speaking of the various adaptations, one of my pet peeves? For some reason they always cast the Bennetts with actors who are about 20 years too old for their roles— the Bennetts should be in their 40s, having married in their 20s, with their eldest daughter now about 21. Sutherland, in the most recent film, is in his 70s, for petesake.
Probably won't be a problem with this adaptation, since he's still active in killing zombies
There hasn’t been mention yet of exactly what started the plague of unmentionables, or direct evidence if they are fast or slow. I’m leaning towards fast since the combat skills are so prominent. If they were slow zombies I’d think any idiot with a 2 by 4 could handle them. Unless they are successful by sheer numbers alone.
I haven't seen one yet. It looks like it originated at some point early in Mr. Bennet's life,
which would make it roughly 30-35 years at the time of the narrative.
There were zombies but not the plague of zombies
Like there was the flu but now there is the plague of killer swine flu
by Kirsten Schlewitz on May 27, 2009 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Aren't there a lot of references to lumbering and other such synonyms?
by Kirsten Schlewitz on May 27, 2009 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Some are referred to as fresh, I've been wondering whether they were any faster than the dessicated ones
Not that big of a deal, I was mostly bringing it up since the zombie aspect hadn’t come up much. Awkward segue more than anything.
We can discuss the zombies, there's no problem in that.
You’re right, the freshness does seem to make a difference, at least in how easily the zombies are sliced up. There was a specific mention of how a dagger moved more easily through a more dessicated zombie.
I think it's clear that Jane Austen is commentating on her peers
Unfortunately, I haven’t read a lot of her other works, but I know the plots of Sense and Sensibility, Emma, etc. It’s obvious she wants to critique women who are empty-headed and focused on one thing, and one thing only—landing a man.
by Kirsten Schlewitz on May 26, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
And a society that encouraged that as the be-all and end-all of Womanhood.
For a middle-class woman, if she did not have money of her own, marriage was one of the few ways a woman could survive. One of the reasons Mrs Bennett is so obsessed with marrying her daughters off, as they will lose their home when Mr Bennett dies.
It's first mentioned in the beginning of Chapter 7
and elaborated upon when Mr. Collins is first mentioned in Chapter 13
My knowledge of Jane Austen's work (and I suppose Grahame-Smith's intentions as well) is pretty poor
but I think the zombies actually help get across this critique, especially to modern readers. Contrasting empty-headed women with women who just fought for their lives against a horde of the undead all while being criticized by the first group for being un-womanly is obviously ridiculous on the face of it, but from what it sounds like it’s also pretty true to the spirit of the original.
That's reminds me of the rat-race = zombiedom theme in Shaun of the Dead.
Speaking of which, Simon Pegg and Nick Frost would make an awesome P&P&Z movie.
So what the hell happened to everybody that was so excited about this? Abender? SB? Hello, anyone?
Pick a time and lets do this thing! Post game tonight?
I'm gearing up for my post. Keep your pants on.
I’m digging up relevant some stuff I read about British society for my British Empire class. One thing I appreciate, though, is that I tried twice before to get through P&P and failed, but now that I’m reading Pride and Prejudice and Zombies , I always read the P&P chapter first before I read the P&P&Z – it just bugs me not knowing the original. So thank you, Seth Graem Smith! Anyone else have a similar experience?
How close is it to the original in content? I mentioned before I haven't read the original in quite some time.
As I’m reading this I can’t help but think it would be hilarious if he just tossed in some random paragraphs regarding the ninjas and Katana swords, and the random zombie attack. I could totally see a guy reading along and right when you’re about to pass out, stop and spice it up a bit.
Based on your answer I may be revisiting the original.
It is rather like the Classic Comics version of the original
The bare bones of the original; sometimes he’ll have conversations from the original wih interpolated zombie-related comments.
I'll be around eventually
probably tonight or tomorrow morning
by seattlebruin on May 26, 2009 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Suggestions
I’ll throw out a link to my post from the MBMBC: Genesis.
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2009/5/11/872099/the-miguel-batista-memorial-book#15575648
I had Lonesome Dove, Blood and Thunder, Master and Commander, Memoirs of a Geisha, Girl With a Pearl Earring, and The Picture of Dorian Gray, and some baseball books I haven’t read but am intrigued by.
Also, a sampling of Miguel Batista’s prose may be found here:
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2009/5/11/872099/the-miguel-batista-memorial-book#15575648
To make this truly the Miguel Batista Memorial Book Club, Miggy needs to be dragged away by an Unmentionable.
"Discussion questions/topics 1. First impressions"
by the way, the original title of P&P was “First impressions”
Interesting.
When I was in middle school, I always assumed “Pride and Prejudice” was about the Civil Rights struggle, or anyway at least something more black than Regency England.
We need more controversy in this thread
by Kirsten Schlewitz on May 28, 2009 11:48 AM PDT reply actions
So I was bored and read ahead, this book is really funny. (Actually I finished it)
Catch up already.
Project Gutenberg copies of Pride and Prejudice, for those who don't have P&P.
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/1342
I prefer the PDF one, although I’ve been reading an old-fashioned book version alongside P&P&Z.
"We have tried two or three subjects already without success, and what we are to talk of next I cannot imagine." "What do you think of Orientals?"
I wrote this yesterday, but decided to sleep on it. So here goes. I’ve got some thoughts and questions about the state of Britain during the Regency that I’ll type up a little later, but here’s what’s been on my mind. First, I’ve really enjoyed reading PPZ. I never could get through the first four or five chapters of P&P until I started reading PPZ – I read a few chapters of Austen, then the same chapters in PPZ, rinse and repeat. But as I kept reading I began enjoying the Austen more and the PPZ less – although I’m still enjoying both. Here’s why I think this might be.
I PPZ’s biggest weakness is that Seth Graeme-Smith just doesn’t know much about Regency-era England – its customs, its conventions of dialogue, you name it. That means Graeme-Smith doesn’t write his new material in convincing Regency-era style prose. I’d love to see what, say, The Onion’s writers, who can perfectly mimic almost any literary voice imaginable, would do with a concept like P&P&Z (see Our Dumb Century – especially the 1765 "Mercantile Onion" broadsheet and the early 1900s section). It’s rather jarring to jump from Austen’s prose to Graeme-Smith’s; it feels like you jump back and forth between several centuries with each chapter you read.
DIALOGUE
Some of the time, Graeme-Smith is great. I especially like page 80-82, when the zombies kill the kitchen staff. Mr. Bingley announcing, "Mr. Darcy, if I may have the pleasure of your company in the kitchen" captures that era’s English sensibility perfectly, as it does when he "politely vomited into his hands." I also loved this part: "Mr. Bingley observed the desserts his poor servants had been attending to at the time of their demise – a delightful array of tarts, exotic fruits, and pies, sadly soiled by blood and brains, and thus unusable" (80).
But beyond this and a few other passages, there’s almost no wry or polite understatement in his writing (especially from the Bennets). PPZ needs way more of this to create more convincing dialogue. This would make the shocking bluntness Graeme-Smith likes to give the characters much more funny and effective.
Another weird thing: Mr. Bennet asks his wife to "spare me the expense of having your lips sewn shut" (88). Dude, WTF? That’s totally over the line – no gentleman would speak to his wife like that in front of others. I know Mrs. Bennet is annoying, but still. The joke, I guess, is in Mr. Bennet being shockingly blunt, but it makes no sense in the context of the story and just gives it even less internal consistency.
An amazon.com reviewer wrote "1) the Regency-era uber-polite Bennetts try to avoid talking about zombies so they call them “unmentionables” – but then they talk about them non-stop and 75% of the time call them zombies. It’s like the author didn’t quite have the writing discipline to enforce the kind of conversational discipline rife in the era." I think I agree with that.
GENDER ROLES
Another thing makes no sense. Carrying muskets and kitana swords is so un-ladylike that the Bennet sisters felt compelled to make the journey from Longbourn to Netherfield armed only with their ankle-daggers (27). So how on earth do they feel they can get away with killing anyone, male or female, who insults them – e.g. Darcy (13) or Mr. Collins (52). In real life, the only situation where violence was acceptable in polite society, dueling, had to take place between male social equals – and that rarely result in death.
Elizabeth tells Darcy: "I too live by the warrior code, and would gladly kill if my honour demanded it" (46). But I don’t think this warrior code and the cult of femininity can co-exist, even in a parody. It completely kills the internal consistency of the story’s world.
CHARACTERS
Also, the characters Seth Graeme-Smith writes are pretty strange, I think.
I think the warrior Elizabeth in P&P&Z seems to have very little in common with Austen’s Elizabeth. Collins sees in Elizabeth’s eyes "a darkness, a kind of absence – as if her soul had taken leave, so that compassion and warmth could not interfere" (58) – but that almost psychopathic quality persists in all the Elizabeth material Graeme-Smith writes, not just when the parts where she’s in combat. It’s funny sometimes, but it’s also pretty bizarre.
"I PPZ’s biggest weakness is that Seth Graeme-Smith just doesn’t know much about Regency-era England – its customs, its conventions of dialogue, you name it."
I can deal with poor dialogue (I have read enough faux-Regency novels in my day to gloss over the dialogue); for me it is his inconsistency. For every clever period conceit like the modesty string or an offhand note about the girls arranging their muskets ‘modestly in their laps’ as they sit in the carriage, he then goes for the joke at the expense of his characters, such as the sewn lips gag.
So here's my question
I haven’t read very far into PPZ yet (I’m only on about page 100), and I wonder – does the joke ever wear out? Because I can see myself getting reeeeeeeally tired of the zombie thing by the end of this book. It’s already starting to feel somewhat forced. It seems like a great idea that would have worked better in a short story format – like Dubliners with zombies, or something.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
It's the juxtaposition of style that I find amusing, it basically amounts to high brow fart jokes.
They pop up at such a random moment in the dialogue it just catches me from left field. “Your balls Mr. Darcy?” “They belong to you Miss Bennet.” Potty humor. For me, msb nailed it with her Classic Comics comment above, it has about as much to do with the original as ‘300’ has to do with King Leonidas and the 300.
I loved the ball jokes.
Mainly because Austen just walks right into them, but otherwise I think you’re pretty close to the mark.
How about some character discussion?
Somewhere in the page 90 area, the girls come across a group of unmentionables in the woods and dispatch them via musket. They then find an unmentionable mother and her unmentionable baby, sparing them out of mercy. I found this interesting, as the girls had, up to that point, been portrayed as nothing short of merciless. They were even tempted to draw weapons on the living, and yet spare a zombie over semantics. Thoughts?
That was an odd section
I couldn’t decide if he wrote it just to raise the idea of a zombie baby, or what. Up to that point he didn’t seem terribly interested in character development, especially as that is what usually gets trimmed to add extra zombie excitement.
I'd say the whole warrior code thing would qualify as character development, but it's not very developed, I guess.
And mercy for a zombie is stupid, even if it’s a child – it’s gone, dude. I don’t get why they would feel it. And of course there can be “honor in mercy” – they’re still living in an overtly Christian society, not a crazy ninja one. It’s silly that the thought that mercy can be valuable never crosses her mind until then – and even more silly that the mercy is felt for a zombie child. She should show some mercy to real, living people, instead of deciding to kill every person that crosses her. /endrant
Also, I perused zombiepedia to read up on the Zombie Survival Guide, although the PPZ zombies are different in that long dead corpses reanimate (much more of an explicitly supernatural thing than the viral zombiedom of Brooks’ works). Brooks has the bit-to-reanimation cycle taking 24 hours, it seems to take several weeks to several months (see Charlotte Lucas) in PPZ.
I couldn't see the humanity in this.
It seems like he must be setting up a plot point, and that this zombie baby will come up again, or that something along these lines will reappear. But I saw nothing in the description that would have compelled Eliza to lower the musket
by Kirsten Schlewitz on May 29, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
What if... Zombies are a symbol for various despised lower classes that were seen
as less than human by aristocracy? And the mercy for the mother/baby zombie was meant to echo the kind of mercy some colonialists may have felt in sparing a cute baby native person… after slaughtering all the “dangerous” men and women in the village. The way that people think and live when they honestly believe they are surrounded by lessors is pretty disgusting and worthy of parody. (No offense Graham.)
Of course, I haven’t read a single page of PPZ, so I have no idea.
I think that would be attributing too much depth to Seth Seth Graeme-Smith ...
by msb on Jun 2, 2009 7:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Well I don't think the zombies are just there randomly
Sure they add a touch of male humor to a story that scares many male readers off. But there’s a long history of using zombies to parody certain kinds of human behavior. See George Romero’s classic work… as well as zombie reboot: 28 Days Later… for different examples of how zombies have been used to make comments about society and human nature.
Good point, it crossed my my mind a few times as I was reading. After some contemplation I just couldn't reconcile the zombies with an ulterior metaphor.
This is more like Japanese Manga
If I can make the tennis thing, I'll give you mine
The kids keep asking what’s wrong with the womans face, the humor in explaining zombies to 3 year old kids wore off pretty quick.
You seem like a good dad if you're talking to your kids about zombies.
by .Taylor on Jun 3, 2009 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions
At some point they have to learn to fend for themselves.
The postman was slightly perplexed being called the ’ zombie postman’, the cat doesn’t seem to care

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