The Situation at Catcher
by Graham on Apr 17, 2009 12:02 PM PDT
in Ranting
89 comments
The Mariners currently have two major-league starting catcher-capable players in the organisation. One is currently on the disabled list after hurting his hamstring on Wednesday, and the other is playing terribly so far in Tacoma after a poor spring. Clement's struggles with the bat this year are only adding to the questions about his ability to adequately play catcher, but the solution to this problem is not to roll with two buckup catchers on the 25 man roster when the team is in pole position in the AL West.
Rob Johnson and Jamie Burke are not the answers for this team, and neither matters to the franchise in the long run. Johjima's injury was the perfect excuse to let Clement sink or swim in the bigs rather than languishing in Tacoma and impacting Adam Moore's development. It was also a great excuse to get what is potentially an impact leftie bat into a lineup full of righthanded hackers. Calling up Burke rather than Clement seems to send a message that the organisation thinks pretty poorly of Jeff, especially in that they're willing to make Rob Johnson (whose defensive reputation appears to be pretty unjustified) the starting catcher for two weeks.
I know that I'm biased towards Clement, but I recognise that at this point, he's a long shot to ever making his mark at the major league level. But long shots should at least be given a shot, and the way he's been handled so far this year seems completely unfair.
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Could it be that they actually think higher of Rob Johnson than we would think?
by waldo rojas on Apr 17, 2009 12:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
With the way Johjima has started, he’ll be the starting catcher all year as long as he’s healthy. Clement has a lot to work on and hopefully that’s what he’s doing down in Tacoma. Over a two-week period, he would be a marginal improvement at best over Johnson and Burke when you factor in defense and handling the pitchers. Also, Clement doesn’t have any spot at designated hitter or first base with Griffey and Branyan firmly entrenched and Chavez hitting, giving them no reason to put Griffey out there. If Clement has developments to make, Tacoma is the only place to do so.
And as far as Moore goes, it might not be presently fair to him, but his track to the majors is pretty well set. The Mariners seem plenty committed to him as their long-term solution at catcher. So, if a few weeks are going to further define Clement’s value to either of the Mariners or a potential trade partner at the expense of Moore seeing the full amount of playing time this year, I’m ok with that. Heck, it will probably save on the wear and tear on Moore
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Apr 17, 2009 12:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Also: Estimate of Clement's glove vs. Johnson's
Assuming Clement is the worst defensive catcher ever, and Johnson is the best (he’s not, or even average), it’s around 0.25 runs over two weeks.
Also also: Johjima has started terribly. Catcher has been our second-worst batting position (behind Beltre at third)
by Graham on Apr 17, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting...
not that I disagree with your point, but where are you finding accurate run values for catcher defense?
by PissedMick on Apr 17, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frankly, I'm shocked.
Graham wrote something.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on Apr 17, 2009 12:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's about Clement. Don't be too shocked.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Apr 17, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was biased towards Clement, too.
But I got over it.
How long will they let Clement struggle before they cut him loose?
the offseason sucks
by section331 on Apr 17, 2009 12:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Define "cut loose"
Waivers? Probably won’t ever happen, because he’ll be traded before he ends up being a minor-league free agent (which is something like 6 years).
Traded? My bet is by July 30. He becomes the Jesse Foppert (busted prospect) to some other team’s Randy Winn (stretch drive veteran acquisition), as it were.
by eponymous_coward on Apr 17, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It appears the FO assessment is ...
that Clement’s defensive skills are sufficiently below acceptable that they are not going to have him on the MLB club in that position. Thus the decision that it is more important to have continue to work on his catching at Tacoma than to have him try to polish his game at the MLB level. We may quibble with that assessment, but I think clearly what the Mariners have decided.
I doubt that they’ve given up on him as a catcher, or else they would be working him at another position. But for now it appears they’ve decided the overall good of the organization is that he continue to work on his catching at Tacoma.
by Steve Nelson on Apr 17, 2009 12:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, this is how I see it.
Clement doesn’t want to be a 1B/DH type, and if you think the M’s roster is clogged at C, 1B/DH isn’t a picnic, either. I also think that given his injury history, he’s going to end up getting moved off of C anyway, if not for his defensive problems, then by injury.
This is just a mess, especially since I think Clement is ~ league average hitter, even at 1B (which makes him a clearly superior hitter at C), and the M’s need ~league average LH bats in their offense very, very badly (I’d say it’s a tossup between LH hitting and the bullpen as to which is their biggest hole right now)- but Clement is blocked by Branyan and Griffey at the other positions he could realistically play outside of C.
All this makes me conclude that Clement’s not long in this organization, because there’s huge, gaping holes he could fill today, and they won’t use him to fill them.
by eponymous_coward on Apr 17, 2009 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clement is done.
It’s about time we admitted it. If Johjima isn’t healthy, then we go with Rob Johnson or Jamie Burke. Clement has shown nothing, proven nothing, and shown absolutely no indication of doing so in the future. The fact that he can hit AAA pitching is, at this point, no longer even close to dispositive.
Our best option would be to dump him as soon as possible for the best we can get. If giving him playing time in the majors would help to increase his trade value, then that’s worth doing, but GMZ’s goal should be to sell him off as soon as possible.
Bias towards Clement at this point is the triumph of hope over experience.
Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism
by esoteric on Apr 17, 2009 12:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Also: Burke gives us an extra option out of the bullpen!
Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism
by esoteric on Apr 17, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I personally would prefer not to see that happen again
Now if we got Swisher, that’s a different story. He didn’t do too poorly against the Rays
by Fuzz on Apr 17, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This comment is completely fucking retarded
Clement has been given half a season of MLB ball with not much playing time. His defence sucks but catcher defence isn’t that important anyway.
In the last two years at Tacoma he’s posted wOBAs of .379 and .481 and you’re letting a shitty spring training and 30 plate appearances tell you he’s questionable as a AAA bat?
That’s idiocy.
by Graham on Apr 17, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
See below. I was being completely tongue-in-cheek.
And yeah, I acknowledge that, reading it back a bit later, I didn’t signal that enough. My bad, not yours.
Although “fucking retarded?” C’mon Graham, I heard rumours you were mellowing out in your old age!
Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism
by esoteric on Apr 17, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was being completely tongue-in-cheek.
And yeah, I acknowledge that, reading it back a bit later, I didn’t signal that enough. My bad, not yours.
by Graham on Apr 17, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Well-played!
Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism
by esoteric on Apr 17, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
[adds golf claps]
Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism
by esoteric on Apr 17, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It keeps things fresh around here.
Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism
by esoteric on Apr 17, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clement's 2008 > Alex Rodriguez's 1995
Was A-Rod done?
by Rollo Tomasi on Apr 17, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok...
Edgar Martinez in 1989, then.
by Rollo Tomasi on Apr 17, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would have taken PT from Presley.
by waldo rojas on Apr 17, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a non sequitur.
We’re not debating the merits of Woody Woodward’s roster decisions. The point is that the same line of reasoning which concludes that Jeff Clement has no future would also conclude that, after his 1989 season, Edgar Martinez had no future.
by Rollo Tomasi on Apr 17, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a remarkably pessimistic opinion.
by Matthew on Apr 17, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it was satire.
I realize now, looking back, that it doesn’t come off. Fuck, I’m usually better at this sort of thing.
Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism
by esoteric on Apr 17, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm definitely in a pretty dry mood.
Lemon-sour pucker sort of mood.
Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism
by esoteric on Apr 17, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like your feelings about the Nationals
are infecting your thoughts about the Mariners.
by Jed MC on Apr 17, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What? That's not true.
"The dark secret of LL is that it only exists so I can one day moderate Graham" ---Robert
by Taylor H on Apr 17, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh. Whoops. Sorry eso.
"The dark secret of LL is that it only exists so I can one day moderate Graham" ---Robert
by Taylor H on Apr 17, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did Clement do something to piss off the new management team?
I am very confused by all of this with regards to his handling. If I was Jeff I would be begging to be sent out to a different org.
by Sec 108 on Apr 17, 2009 1:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I can't think of a better explanation than Steve Nelson's up the thread a bit.
I don’t agree with it, but I rea;;y can’t think of any other thought process that would lead them to the decisions they’ve made.
by acblue on Apr 17, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It does seem like the plausible explanation.
However, like Graham said, Johnson is no whiz behind the dish. I think he has a plus arm but his receiving skills are not impressing me at all.
by Sec 108 on Apr 17, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has he actually had any passed balls resulting in runners advancing yet?
It seems like he’s losing pitches all the time, but I can’t seem to remember any actual consequences. Of course I have a tendency to tune this sort of thing out, so there you go.
Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism
by esoteric on Apr 17, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He had a flubbed pop-out yesterday as well.
by waldo rojas on Apr 17, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The pop-up was right at the rail,
I’ll give him a tiny break on that one.
"Fights begin, finger prints are took, days is lost, bail is made, court dates are ignored, cycle is repeated."
by Thingray on Apr 17, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In-and-out of his glove, looked like he was afraid of the rail.
No-hit catcher’s gotta make that one.
by waldo rojas on Apr 17, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What Graham said.
He blew a strikeout by Batista, adding a baserunner and losing an out in a high-leverage situation.
by Teej on Apr 17, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get the impression that Johnson's defense is pretty bad.
I guess maybe they know he doesn’t have a real future with the team and don’t want to screw with Clement’s head? I don’t know. I disagree with their decision, but I’m trying to figure out their rationale.
by acblue on Apr 17, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm starting to think Nichols Law of Inverse Catcher Defense applies here.
by JI on Apr 17, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Long shot theory, but it's only a theory.
Perhaps it’s a question of his ability to handle the pitching staff. Especially in light of the bullpen and it’s tendency to walk the world.
by Kermit. on Apr 17, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty easy to handle the bullpen.
Put down one finger and wave it wildly around your crotchal area. That’ll suffice.
by abender20 on Apr 17, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah, calling endless fastballs seems to be key. Maybe Clement can't stick one finger out.
I’ve known people that can’t wink one eye at a time.
by Kermit. on Apr 17, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That certainly makes it harder to express subtlety to the dense.
by abender20 on Apr 17, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Makes it a real pain in the ass to shoot something accurately as well.
by Kermit. on Apr 17, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crap, that's getting too off topic, my apologies to the author.
And I was being serious floating the initial theory, GMZ and Wakamatsu both seem to lean towards the ‘make-up’ type intangibles in some of their choices (if Wak has any input at all). Something is going on with Clement and his progression.
by Kermit. on Apr 17, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The weird thing is they've had nothing but praise for his work ethic
Maybe Clement’s just an idiot or something
by Graham on Apr 17, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There has to be something we don't know about.
He is, at his absolute worst case, similar to Rob Johnson offensively. We have seen glimpses that this organization doesn’t favor upside-based moves within the standing roster. Sweeney over Shelton and any other catcher combo that doesn’t involve Clement.
by abender20 on Apr 17, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could it be the whole "he's paid his dues" thing?
I thought we had moved past that with GMZ, but maybe not.
by waldo rojas on Apr 17, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
Johnson has seemed to be getting along really well with the staff (with good results!)
"The dark secret of LL is that it only exists so I can one day moderate Graham" ---Robert
by Taylor H on Apr 17, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beggars can't be choosers
"The dark secret of LL is that it only exists so I can one day moderate Graham" ---Robert
by Taylor H on Apr 17, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Johnson is expendable
Continuing the logic I started upthread, it would not serve the club’s long term interest to put Clement into a situation on the MLB roster where his chances of failing are too high, in their assessment. On the other hand, Johnson isn’t a real prospect, so if he washes out that isn’t nearly as great a loss.
Folks, this is a sharp departure from Bavasi’s rapid promotion, “let them flail so we can find out who the true competitors, failures be damned” philosophy. Bavasi was I believe rightly condemned for that approach. I think we should appreciate that the current team is taking a different approach, even if we do quibble about the details.
by Steve Nelson on Apr 17, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's different in this case
Clement’s been about 2 years in AAA, and has shown he destroys pitching there. His glove sucks, but it’s always sucked and probably always will… and in any case that’s not really an important factor. Clement can survive being worth -1.5 wins with the glove if he can be more than 1.5 wins better than the average catcher with the bat (not hard).
The aggressive promotion was bad, yes, but Clement (unlike many of our other prospects) earned his and now he isn’t getting it because the effect of his bad defence on the team is being exaggerated by the front office.
by Graham on Apr 17, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is, the organization either believes or really wants to believe catching defense is vital to a team's success
This is essentially the entire logical reason why they’d be holding up Clement in AAA.
Unfortunately, to us, that really isn’t a logical reason because it’s becoming increasingly understood that catching defense is largely irrelevant in a catcher’s actual long-term value.
This whole situation just blows.
by cwel87 on Apr 17, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, we know that the running game/pb/WPs is "largely irrelevant"
but no one’s quantified the whole ‘calling a good game’ or other intangibles that are precisely the things that the org loves about Johnson. It may be that they’re irrelevant too, but that’s not what was quantified a year or so ago, and what WAS quantified has nothing to do with this decision.
This is decidedly not about the org thinking that Johnson can better prevent stolen bases than Clement. Hell, they’re probably aware that Johnson’s passed ball problems are the equal of Clement’s.
by marc w on Apr 17, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't the cERA experiments show that gamecalling etc. wasn't really that impactful?
I’m pretty sure that if it was, we’d have found it by now.
by Graham on Apr 17, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think cERA was particularly well put-together, but yeah, even
Tango or Woolner’s stuff doesn’t seem to find a huge impact.
I’m still not 100% convinced that it’s just irrelevant, or that it’s irrelevant for all pitchers, but it may not be huge deal. Still, I think it’s a mistake to think that the Mariners have Clement in the minors because they’re REALLY concerned with things like PBs or CS% or something.
by marc w on Apr 17, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clement's older than Jose Lopez.
Clement be 26 in August, so he’s not even young for the league. This is basically Edgar Martinez Mk II- someone who’s being sent to AAA to work on his spelling or whatever. At this point, the organization needs to fish or cut bait, because I don’t think Clement is going to get better.
by eponymous_coward on Apr 17, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would be willing to pay for a scoreboard message that says "Free Clement!"
by Fin on Apr 17, 2009 1:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's all about faith
“I’ve known Jamie from three different organizations,” Wakamatsu said. “I trust his ability to call a game and his relationship with the pitching staff.” – PI
Wak knows and trusts Jamie, not Jeff. Jeff has flailed under the new organization and until he at least does something at the AAA level, what would justify bringing him up, in Wak’s mind? I know it sucks for Jeff, but first impressions and perceptions are huge.
I'm more like I am now than I've ever been.
by ralphie81 on Apr 17, 2009 2:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
re: "two buckup catchers"
I think the org has always loved the way Johnson tells pitchers to buck up when they’re scuffling.
Seriously, Rob Johnson is a good defensive catcher, who’s only real weakness is… catching. Great arm, mostly accurate, etc., but what the org loves is that basically every pitcher loves throwing to him. I think it says something that both the Bavasi/Fontaine group and the Zduriencik/Grifol folks have absolutely loved what Johnson does. Yes, Graham’s totally right, that doesn’t make them right, but it’s interesting.
Also, I think Steve’s right that they want to make sure Clement’s in a position to succeed. He can’t succeed anywhere right now, because I think he’s got a confidence problem. I can’t imagine that essentially telling him that he’s the 4th catcher in the org (“but we LOOOOVE Adam Moore, by the way”) is a way to solve a confidence problem, but they apparently want him crushing AAA pitching again. They may also want him to have some positional flexibility when he comes back, though of course he’s yet to see any action at 1b.
by marc w on Apr 17, 2009 2:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe this is the M's attempt to showcase Rob Johnson
so they can trade his ass and make room for Adam Moore to advance and Jeffy to get right with his bat and get promoted back to the bigs.
by johnbai on Apr 17, 2009 3:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This type of theory gets presented a lot.
Has the team ever actually employed the “showcase sucky player so that some sucker trades for him” strategy? I hope not, because it’s a pretty terrible strategy.
by Rollo Tomasi on Apr 17, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The premise that Rob Johnson is a sucky player is questionable.
by Matthew on Apr 17, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps
but is he really going to wow people into suddenly become interested in a trade?
by Rollo Tomasi on Apr 17, 2009 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...
I left in the 5th, but Clement had already HR’d, doubled, and launched one to the warning track in CF…
Also:
This signature space for rent.
by PositivePaul on Apr 18, 2009 12:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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