Better Know A Rival: Oakland
Status: Division contender
Projected Offense:
C: Suzuki
1B: Giambi
2B: Ellis
SS: Cabrera
3B: Chavez
LF: Holliday
CF: Sweeney
RF: Buck
DH: Cust
The A's didn't have an easy time scoring runs in 2008, finishing with the worst offense in baseball. They set about addressing this weakness by essentially replacing Daric Barton with Jason Giambi, Frank Thomas with Matt Holliday, and Bobby Crosby with Orlando Cabrera. All of a sudden, a unit that so recently didn't even strike fear in the heart of Steve Trachsel looks pretty solid from top to bottom, with a lineup core that promises to give the 6 and 7 hitters a lot of at bats with men on base.
"But what about injuries?" you ask. It's a valid question - Mark Ellis, Eric Chavez, Ryan Sweeney, and Travis Buck have all had problems staying on the field, while Giambi is 38. Ordinarily it's tough to build a lineup around that much uncertainty and remain optimistic.
But here's the neat thing about the A's. Ellis gets hurt? Up comes Cliff Pennington. Chavez gets hurt? Hello Nomar, or Crosby, or Jack Hannahan. Sweeney? Rajai Davis. Buck? Chris Denorfia or Aaron Cunningham. Giambi? Barton (who, disastrous season aside, projects to be about average). No matter who gets hurt, the A's have a legitimate answer, a guy they can plug into the lineup and expect to hold his own, if not succeed. Not that they could replace Holliday's bat or anything, but still. This is the sort of depth a lot of teams don't have, and you have to give credit to Billy Beane for putting this all together. Beane may not make that many major moves that cause you to stop in your tracks and think "that guy's a genius," but it's little things like this that, when you notice them, make you think "oh yeah, of course he planned for that." He's a thorough man, that Billy. The kind of man who probably could've made a successful career out of robbing banks.
This is a pretty good lineup. Not amazing, but decent, and likely a fair bit above-average if nothing horrible goes wrong. Given all the depth, how it turns out will probably rest on the shoulders of Holiday, Cust, and Giambi in the middle. If Giambi ages or Holliday has a tough transition, that's going to make things hard, but if they don't, then look out. This is no longer an offense to take lightly.
Projected Pitching Staff:
uh
SP: Duchscherer
SP: Braden
SP: Cahill
SP: Eveland
SP: Anderson
RP: Springer
RP: Ziegler
CL: Devine
No, I don't blame you. Trevor Cahill is 21, and has never pitched above AA. Brett Anderson is 21, and has never pitched above AA. And Josh Outman - who's beginning the year in the rotation with Duchscherer unavailable - has but 41 innings of experience above AA. Because of Oakland's tight budget and rebuilding/reloading program, it's a group of relative unknowns that, together, make up probably the most unpredictable pitching staff in the Majors. Without a lot of previous big league experience, we're left having to pick out bits of information from more distant sources.
Duchscherer's probably the best of the starters, with a 3.90 2008 tRA and enough strikes to offset the hittability. He's also the one who just got cut open. That leaves Dallas Braden as the Opening Day starter, which can't possibly be considered good news. Braden's okay and all, but that's kind of like starting your season with Ryan Rowland-Smith. It just doesn't set the best tone. After Braden come the kids and Dana Eveland, the latter of whom isn't the least bit interesting.
As far as those kids are concerned, Outman's got a power fastball and a full repertoire, but also spotty command that saw him throw strikes on just 60% of his pitches over six starts between AAA and the Majors. Anderson's a strike-throwing lefty with the secondary pitches you'd expect from a lefty without a blazing heater, and he's coming off a season that saw him open a lot of eyes. And Cahill has a low-90s fastball, useful curve/change secondaries, and a tendency to keep the ball on the ground (63% GB rate last year), which helps offset his his come-and-go location. All three are inexperienced, but all three have the potential to succeed right now. This is definitely going to test the idea that, while young hitters generally need a lot of experience, young pitchers with good enough stuff can succeed against anyone.
It's an...unfamiliar group, but it's not a group without talent, and it's worth remembering that Sean Gallagher and Gio Gonzalez are also hanging around in case somebody falters or another starter gets hurt. So it's not like the A's need to live and die by the rotation they'll have going next week. Overall, I'm going to project the rotation to be somewhat below-average, since there are bound to be growing pains and nobody stands out as a potential immediate ace, but there is a lot of upside here that may just be realized. Just because you might not know who (m)any of them are doesn't mean they're bad. It just means you could be surprised. (Alternatively they could suck a lot.)
Working in the rotation's favor are two things: (1) the defense, which I'll talk about below, and (2) the bullpen. Russ Springer, Joey Devine, Santiago Casilla, and Michael Wuertz all routinely post swinging strike rates above the reliever league average, and while Brad Ziegler doesn't miss as many bats, he's an extreme groundballer against whom it's difficult to do major damage. Devine's the best of the group, so it's going to be important for Oakland that his elbow checks out. He's going to see Dr. Andrews next week, but until we hear otherwise, I'm going to err on the side of "mostly healthy". Obviously it does them a lot of harm if Devine has to miss significant time, but still, on paper right now, this is a good unit. I know those five guys are all righties, but Jerry Blevins and/or Gio Gonzalez should be perfectly capable of handling the LOOGY role.
Defense:
Get past the whole Jason-Giambi-first-baseman thing and this defense is solid. Mark Ellis and Orlando Cabrera are a middle infield to be envied, at least as far as glovework is concerned. Chavez has a long track record of defensive aptitude, and should be a bit of a plus as long as he's healthy. And the Holliday/Sweeney/Buck outfield is above-average across the board, with Davis serving as an excellent A-level defensive backup. The A's are intending to field a strong defense capable of reducing the strain and stress on their inexperienced pitching staff, and the only potential injury that could really take away from that is one to Ellis, since he's one of the best defenders of his generation. Everywhere else, they're covered. Losing Cabrera would hurt, but it would hurt a lot less than losing Ellis.
Overall:
Right now, the A's are being projected as a ~.500 ballclub. The Diamond-Mind Projection Blowout linked to the other day put them at an average of 81-81, with 768 runs scored and 755 runs against. I think that's fair - the offense is good but not great, and the pitching staff is just littered with question marks, from the health of the top arms to the inexperience of the group as a whole. What should concern fans of other teams in the AL West is that this roster seems to have a lot more upside than downside. Given all the uncertainty surrounding the rotation, it'll only take one or two guys taking a step forward to turn that uncertainty on its head, and with the starting depth, the team's likely to find four or five guys who can pitch a little bit before too long. And that's when it's time to worry, because a 2009 A's team with average to above-average run prevention is a 2009 A's team that's going to push for the playoffs.
We've talked all winter about how the Mariners have a somewhat reasonable chance of surprising everyone and taking the West, but the A's are closer to achieving that goal than we are. They're a better team than us with better depth, and the longer the Angels go without their big three, the greater the opportunity for the A's to sneak by. You can look at their unfamiliar roster and try to ignore them if you like, but odds are they're going to make you notice. It's only a matter of time.
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Why is Sean Gallagher not in their rotation?
He’s pitched 100 big league innings or so and was reasonable when he wasn’t walking the world. Are the younger guys that much higher reward?
Geren said that Gallagher didn’t attack the strike zone as much as the A’s were looking for, and his stuff needs to be sharper. After his last outing, Gallagher was pulled aside for a pep talk from GM Billy Beane and Gallagher told reporters his mechanics were off. He said his legs weren’t under him enough and he was using “all arm.”
If he still needs to hammer out his mechanics, it might be more likely that Gallagher would head to Triple-A Sacramento to work on smoothing things out. Also, he could stay stretched out in the event the A’s need another starter. Their very young rotation is likely to be in flux much of the year.
by Jeff Sullivan on Apr 1, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions
It was a trap, just lulling everyone into a sense of complacency
Weren’t they in the hunt until mid-season, then Beane decided they didn’t have it so he pulled the trigger and made some trades? I don’t follow them very much, but they registered last year when they traded Joe Blanton to the Phillies.
nice write up
no references to chokeland, fremont, and tarps…oops thats another al west board
likes:
depth
upside in pitchers
deep bullpen
plus defense
dislikes:
tons of inexperience
to be honest it could blowup..2 lefty 5th starts pretending to be in the 1/2 slot,two 21 yr olds who should be in AA.
its possible in may they have a whole new rotation around may/june with duchscherer /gallagher/mazzaro/simmons et to replace the current group
Should be in AA my ass
Anderson and Cahill are regarded as some of the best pitching prospects in the game. They were locks to pitch no lower than AAA. Kevin Goldstein of BP said (when they were expect to head to AAA) that he’d take the Oakland AAA rotation over Baltimore’s MLB rotation. This post understates the upside that this rotation has.
I'd rather have inexperienced newbies
than Silva and Washburn.
I'm more like I am now than I've ever been.
Agreed on a lot, but
I’m not sure Cliff Pennington counts as a ‘legitimate answer’ if Ellis gets hurt. To me, this is like replacing the Branyan/Sweeney platoon with Brian LaHair.
Further, calling Dallas Braden their version of RRS is perhaps a bit unkind to RRS. Having seen Braden a number of times (and to be fair, he was pretty sharp when I’ve seen him), the guy is Oakland’s Bobby Livingston. Braden often has trouble breaking 88 with the FB, but he can throw a change and slider to get righties and lefties. Sounds like Livingston. Braden had a better tRA in 2008 than Livingston in 2007, but their GB/FB/LD ratios are quite close. Livingston got more swinging strikes and kS. Anyway, if you ever thought Bobby Livingston would be an opening day starter for the M’s, think of of how A’s fans must feel (and seriously, they’d start Eveland in front of Braden, right?).
On the other hand, I have no idea what happened to Daric Barton last year; I keep fearing some .400 OBP breakout. Maybe this year, maybe next year, maybe 5 years from now… but it’s going to happen.
They should have decent depth at SP in the minors, even after you assume Cahill/Anderson start with Oakland. Which is crazy.
not a big pennington fan
but he had a surprisingly solid spring and has several standout skills which BA rated him the best in their system…strike zone judgment, best defensive infielder, best infield arm. plus he has some speed. he’d be an okay fit as a utility guy. he has NO power, but if he can get consistent hitting i think he an be a ryan theriot type
by Asfan4ever723 on Apr 2, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Ehhh, I don't think Braden and RRS are really that dissimilar
I mean, okay, RRS throws a lot of curves, but aside from that, they’re both left-handed flyballers with underwhelming fastballs, decent but inconsistent command, and a slightly below-average number of missed bats. The greatest difference between the two has to be sex appeal.
by Jeff Sullivan on Apr 2, 2009 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions
I'll take the sex appeal gap as a given.
No, I suppose RRS and Braden aren’t totally dissimilar in the way that Lincecum and Braden are, but there are always levels of similarity/dissimilarity.
I was thinking that RRS has a somewhat better FB, although it’s probably fair to say that we can’t really say that for sure… if RRS is a starter the whole year, does his 89-ish FB start to look more like Braden’s 87.7 FB? With Braden, he’s got one year of 86+ and one year of 87+. I think his FB – purely in velo terms – puts him in a group of pitchers at the far left end of the curve. RRS, for a lefty, is somewhat further towards the middle, but again, you may be right on and we’ll know soon enough.
More generally, I just think pitch mix matters when comparing guys. Braden’s pitch mix pushes him further towards Livingston (or Ryan Feierabend, how about that?) than RRS – I think over time Braden may walk fewer, but he’ll miss fewer bats.
RRS has a slightly better fastball in terms of swinging strike rate
(4.3% to 2.3) (holy shit 2.3?) but the velocities are really close, assuming that RRS drops a little as a full-time starter. Braden’s fastball had the worst swinging strike rate of anyone’s in baseball last year. Damn.
The pitch mix does make them different. Braden throws more fastballs, and RRS throws (more) curves. But in terms of raw results, they’re very similar pitchers, and that’s really what I was going for. It was intended to be a loose comparison anyway. The point is that holy crap I can’t imagine having RRS start on Opening Day.
by Jeff Sullivan on Apr 2, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
braden
he dumped the screwball due to health issues
he throws a ouple different gripped changeups
has added a ccutter w/ the help of russ springer and throws an occasional slider
obviously if duchscherer wasnt injured and gio/gallagher didnt have issues, braden wouldnt be more than a 4th/5th starter
by Asfan4ever723 on Apr 2, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Also, you're right, upon closer inspection it appears I was too high on Pennington
although a point in his favor is that he seems to be a plus defender, which would be able to alleviate some of the pain of losing Cabrera or Ellis for an extended period.
by Jeff Sullivan on Apr 2, 2009 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes, that's true.... I suppose I should've guessed given he's moving from SS to 2B
but I just doubt he’s a major league quality hitter. His performance above AA just screams fluke to me, given how consistently awful he was at AA and below.
He was playing hurt most of 2006-2007
but nevertheless it’s hard to see him ever having a slg higher than .350.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Braden
is supposed to be bringing back a screwball that helped him dominate early in his career(his minor league k/9 is 10 while h/9 is 8). His screwball was well regarded by scouts and was what elevated him to prospect status after being drafted in the 24th round. I am not about to say that he is going to experience a renaissance as a pitcher but there is reason to believe he has not hit his maximum potential yet.
The As also have Gregorio Petit and Chen to help replace Ellis, if Pennington fails or is injured. Brooks Conrad could of helped also but the Braves got a hold of him through FA.
by tdot mariner fan on Apr 2, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
brooks conrad left i believe
their fringe depth consist of:
3b: hannahan/baisley
1b/3b nomar
SS/3b crosby
pennington
petit
chen
wimberly
paterson
by Asfan4ever723 on Apr 2, 2009 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Joe Dillon is still with the org., and he's probably a better bet this year than Baisley/Chen/Wimberly/Patterson,
though that depends on the position they need.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Spot on analysis
I agree with Braden and RRS comparison as far as talent level goes.
Agreed with marc w that Pennington is not a legit replacement for Ellis, although he had a monster spring and crazier things have happened. No doubt that the rotation is totally unpredictable except that we can be pretty certain it won’t be fantastic.
On the hitting side, I would say that beyond Ellis, Cabrera, and Holliday everyone is replaceable without much damage. Even Suzuki could go down with Landon Powell ready to step in.
The critical “step forward” guys are Buck and Sweeney, and they appear to be inclined to do so.
I’d say that it doesnt much matter what Giambi does because if he declines odds are Barton would be a clear upgrade at that point.
I miss Chad God
Yes.
Shouldn’t be too hard. I think it just means Sweeney’s on a really short leash.
Can Sweeney hold his own in center?
UZR thinks he was terrible in CF and stellar in RF, which seems like a sample size issue. I know nothing about him.
Small sample and he's been +9.4 overall anyway
The A’s are set in the outfield. Cunningham/Davis/Denorfia might even be a good enough trio to start.
by Jeff Sullivan on Apr 2, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Crap, forgot about Davis. Yeah, they're set.
I guess the trick would be if Sweeney’s the one who falls, do they go with Davis or slide Buck to CF and slot in Cunningham. All depends on how bad you think Buck would be in CF.
buck has barely played CF, maybe a handful of times
in minors…theyd end up likely going to davis/denorfia
cunningham replaces holliday in LF next yr
by Asfan4ever723 on Apr 2, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Fair enough. The Sacto/Tacoma teams are going to be fun to watch this year.....
(Worth pointing out that the A’s have used Buck in CF occasionally, and it still is the team that used Swisher in CF for long stretches. I think they go with Davis too, but it’s not inconceivable that they move Buck to CF if he’s hitting and if Cunningham is nuking the PCL).
I don't think so
His projections for this season are not good at all. His BB% should be a bit below average, and his power is pretty good, but far from great, so he’ll need to put up a good BA, but he’s had a 21-22% K rate AA and above. Watching him last year, I learned that he has a very hard time catching up to good or even average fastballs. It is very difficult to envision him being a good player at a corner OF spot with a 25% K rate. I don’t think he’s necessarily better than Denorfia at this point, let alone Sweeney or Buck. His defense is also not very good at present.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
He's had a .400ish wOBA at every minor league without being old for the level
If he’s being projected to be terrible, the projections are stupid.
by Graham MacAree on Apr 2, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Also the BA reports I've seen on his defence have him at below average in CF and slightly above in a corner
You’ve seen him field; where’s he going wrong?
by Graham MacAree on Apr 2, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions
He takes bad routes, especially going back
He looked very silly on 3-4 balls over his head in his short stint last year. He has good speed, though, so I would expect him to be somewhat above average in the corners in the medium to long term. And of course he might be above average in a corner now, since I’m largely basing this on watching him in 15-20 games.
As for the offense, yes, he’s done very well at every minor league stop but it is very difficult to imagine him being very much if at all better than league average with a 25% K rate and his patience/power profile. (He won’t be terrible.)
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
The strikeouts really only matter if he's not capable of sustaining a high BABIP
I’d argue that he’s good enough at hitting line drives that the worst of that should be mitigated. Experience will help him too.
by Graham MacAree on Apr 2, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I would imagine that to be projected terrible at the MLB level in 2009
which is quasi-reasonable.
Bill James/Oliver/Marcel all have him as an above average hitter in 2009
Bill James projection is mighty tasty, though they’re all a bit higher, aren’t they….
Honestly I only find comedic value in the Bill James projections at this point.
Although if the Gutierrez projection comes true holy sextown.
by Aaron Campeau on Apr 2, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, your skepticism is well known and well taken.
But hey, the Oliver projection on Cunningham is good too.
What’s the total number of bRAA in the James projections, does anyone know? Did you look into this, ac?
I didn't but I know that the offensive environment in bugfuck insane.
by Aaron Campeau on Apr 2, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Which, hey, he's several orders of magnitude smarter than I could ever be so maybe he's right.
by Aaron Campeau on Apr 2, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Bill James has nothing to do with the Bill James projections
by Jeff Sullivan on Apr 2, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I love Bill James but holy fuck
he seems to be three years behind the times and his projections are nuts
by JI on Apr 2, 2009 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Cliff Pennington
Pennington is a wild card. He won’t hit for any power, that is certain. He could theoretically be a .300/.400/.350 hitter. But, since he has no power, its more likely he ends up as a .250/.330/.300 hitter once pitchers realize that he can’t hit anything past the infield. He can take a walk, but if pitchers arn’t afraid to throw strikes, thats moot.
Pennington has always been lavished for his defense. In the time I have seen him, he’s been average or above average on short stints hopping around the infield. Gregorio Petit looked like a better player to me, but the A’s seem to dislike him for whatever reason.
As for if Ellis went down, and my question in this scenario is: for how long? the A’s have several replacements for him.
Pennington and Petit
Patterson (hah!), Wimberly, and Chen
But in Double A, Adrian Cardenas should be sticking it out (Probably at Shortstop). If Cardenas has a good half year in Double A, and Ellis goes down for the rest of the year, the A’s might be inclined to call up Cardenas, stick him at Second Base, and play him there the rest of the season. If Cardenas holds his own in the Majors, they’d likely then just slip him over to Shortstop, put the newly repaired Ellis back at Second, and put Cunningham in Left Field to replace the departed Matt Holliday.
Chicago. Where the Dead can Vote. Where the Voters of Tomorrow are found in the Obituaries of Today.
Giambi
If Giambi goes down, he could be replaced by Daric Barton. But its also very likely that he could be replaced by Sean Doolittle instead. Doolittle looks better offensivly than Barton right now, and is considered to be a Gold Glove calibre 1st Baseman.
Chicago. Where the Dead can Vote. Where the Voters of Tomorrow are found in the Obituaries of Today.

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