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It's Science!

A few days after reading about platelet-rich plasma therapy at The Book Blog, we get this bit on Gary Matthews Jr.:

When the Angels' outfielder underwent surgery to repair a partially torn patella tendon in his left knee Oct. 28, he also underwent a simultaneous procedure that included re-injecting a small quantity of his own blood into the surgical site. Four months after the surgery, Matthews is ahead of schedule in his recovery and talking about being ready to play Opening Day.

Matthews Jr. isn't the only baseball player to undergo this procedure, but I think he's the latest, and it seems to have worked pretty well. By having some of his own blood concentrated down and injected directly into the injured tendon, Matthews Jr. was able to introduce blood-based healing promoters and agents into a poorly vascularized region of his body, thereby seemingly speeding up his recovery time. 

In other words, the performance of Matthews Jr.'s body may have been improved by a process the body is by and large unable to perform on its own.

Before we go all crazy chasing after Alex Rodriguez and Barry Bonds and trying to erase their numbers from the record books, it might be a good idea to stop and ask ourselves, "why?"

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Between this and Maddux's success last year after Lasik....

I wonder what line they’ll draw?

I mean Bonds was the last one to have that giant hard shell on his arm, right?

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Mar 1, 2009 5:55 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Lasik is actually the big one to me

It makes absolutely zero sense for that to be permitted and for steroids to be banned.

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 1, 2009 5:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why?

Doesn’t it seem unfair that some players naturally have 20/20 vision, and others don’t?

me so cool

by Humongo on Mar 1, 2009 6:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Are you suggesting

that athletes shouldn’t be allowed to wear glasses or contacts to improve their vision? Or to go to an extreme, perhaps they shouldn’t be able to wear sunglasses because the body doesn’t naturally filter sunlight to that degree.

by HitKing69 on Mar 1, 2009 6:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with your stance ...

.. in part. I have this debate all the time (strangely) with my wife, who is obsessed with ethics in sport. It’s just so hard to figure out where to draw the line in maintaining the purity of sport. Can anything in life be pure?

by HitKing69 on Mar 1, 2009 6:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lasik doesn't artificially improve anything

it repairs faulty components.

There is a difference. There was nothing wrong with Bonds or his game. As A-Roid has said, he never felt overmatched on the diamond and therefore the juice wasn’t worth the risk anymore.

If I was facing guys who were trying to throw a hardball past me at 90-100 mph everyday, I would certainly want to be able to see them as well as I could.

by Jo-Jo on Mar 1, 2009 6:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Incorrect.
Since then, scores of pro athletes have had laser eye surgery, known as LASIK (Laser-Assisted In Situ Keratomileusis). Many, like Woods, have upgraded their vision to 20/15 or better. Golfers Scott Hoch, Hale Irwin, Tom Kite, and Mike Weir have hit the 20/15 mark. So have baseball players Jeff Bagwell, Jeff Cirillo, Jeff Conine, Jose Cruz Jr., Wally Joyner, Greg Maddux, Mark Redman, and Larry Walker.

http://www.slate.com/id/2116858/

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Mar 1, 2009 6:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm voting against Lasik then

A player needs all parts of their body to be successful. Upgrading any part of it artificially should be against the rules in my book, as it constitutes an unfair advantage.

Speeding up a healing process is not an upgrade, however. It’s an attempt to get things back to where they were.

by Ezzra on Mar 1, 2009 6:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nerf AL batters.

Hard work never killed nobody, but I won't take my chances.

by JAH on Mar 1, 2009 10:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

QQ n00b.

l2 play before you whine. If you knew how the game worked at all, you would know how AL batters aren’t even all that great. NL batters have utility that AL batters don’t have. Try rolling an AL batter and playing. They’re just balanced fine.
NL tards are all trying to ruin balance and want everything to be easy mode.

There are no good individual basketball statistics.
54!

by joof on Mar 2, 2009 12:16 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

So if I'm getting this right

you personally draw the line between restoration and enhancement.

I like the idea – it might be my favorite of anti-steroid positions – but it still allows one hell of a slippery slope. Do we then allow athletes to use whatever means necessary to get back to normal?

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 1, 2009 6:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

In conclusion

rather than drawing arbitrary lines, we should probably allow athletes to take whatever they want and just make sure their intake is monitored, and that they have a proper understanding of what they’re putting into their body.

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 1, 2009 6:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is the point I always come to

It’s funny how, after every discussion I have on this topic, I always come to the conclusion that maybe there isn’t anything wrong with any sort of enhancement. It is normally a fleeting thought, but I always come end up here. Maybe if I had taken steroids and had my eyes fixed when I was 16, Coach Webber would have promoted me from JV and I would be a millionaire now.

by HitKing69 on Mar 1, 2009 6:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I pray for the day when fans can say:

“Ichiro LITERALLY has a cannon for an arm.”

by csiems on Mar 2, 2009 12:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Like steroids!

Lance Armstrong used steroids when recovering from cancer. Why can’t Beltre and his shoulder injury!

by Wilder. on Mar 1, 2009 6:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

there is a difference between the kind of steroid used for cancer patients

or that get misted into athsmatic lungs, then the kinds you inject into your ass cheeks as an athlete.

The kind of steroids that are used as performance enhancers are designed for performance inhancing, not medical recovery.

by Jo-Jo on Mar 1, 2009 6:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right, there are many different types of steroids.

But the main reason why a lot of athletes take steroids is to recovery from an injury, not necessarily enhance their performance.

by Wilder. on Mar 1, 2009 6:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

and if a doctor prescribes them as a part of medical recovery, that is one thing, because they would do the same for you and me. But the stuff that gets passed around the locker rooms are not the same thing.

by Jo-Jo on Mar 1, 2009 6:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

wasn't a question

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Mar 2, 2009 6:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But it is in my mind!

but frankly, I just read it as “Is it” rather than “It is”.
The lack of a question mark also apparently meant nothing to me.

 i guess i just dont care about grammar n stuff

by johnbai on Mar 2, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My guess would be it's possible, but only to a certain extent

Because again, we are talking about a subjectively defined notion of “enhancement” here, so take this with a grain of salt…

But if we know that steroids enhance performance, and the degree to which they can enhance performance is dependent on the amount taken, I think we can assume that if everyone is taking steroids to get better at a sport the nature of competition will drive people to try to take more than anyone else, to be better than everyone else, on and on until the amounts being consumed to stay “competitive” do become destructive and harm the mental and physical health of the people using them.

by OlSalty on Mar 1, 2009 10:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with this statement.

by Wilder. on Mar 1, 2009 10:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm suggesting it is up to a doctor to decide on the recovery

Not a medical member of a baseball organization, but someone who is arbitrary to the concerns of the team and is looking to heal the player in the fastest,safest, least detrimental way possible, both short term and long term.

If a small amount of steroids is used correctly to heal, it can be incredibly safe and practical. I don’t have a problem with that. It’s after the injury when they are used to build muscle mass (or the like) that irks me.

by Ezzra on Mar 1, 2009 7:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I can get behind this

Restoration = good (up to and not exceeding the best approximation of physical state prior to injury).

So now we just need to figure out which upgrades are okay and which ones are not. If any.

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 1, 2009 7:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm really not for any upgrades

I’d completely understand if MLB voted to not allow glasses, either for eye improvement or sunglare.

by Ezzra on Mar 1, 2009 7:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Unfair advantage

Only the best athletes would be playing, and it’d be completely even in terms of abilities.

Those with bad eyesight don’t deserve to be on the field anymore than those with bad agility, or those with bad balance. How are they different?

by Ezzra on Mar 1, 2009 7:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's outlaw surgery while we're at it.

No one would ever make it past HS baseball.

by acblue on Mar 1, 2009 7:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're not making a distinction

between restoration and enhancement

by Ezzra on Mar 1, 2009 7:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Tommy John is a reconstructive surgery

I don’t believe a lot of enhancing goes on

by Ezzra on Mar 1, 2009 7:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What about preventative medicines and procedures?

They’re not really restorative because nothing is damaged yet, but they’re preventing future injuries the player would normally have to suffer through.

by OlSalty on Mar 1, 2009 7:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Makes sense.

It replaces a ligament with a tendon. That’s not restorative.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Mar 2, 2009 3:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Foppert?

I’m pretty sure if I thought about it I could come up with a handful of guys who could never get it back.

“Ruined” is a little of an overstatement. Its not like its guaranteed to make you as good or better than before.

by Edgar for Pres on Mar 2, 2009 11:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He never fully recovered from the injury, but it wasn't the surgery that ruined him.

Also:

Its not like its guaranteed to make you as good or better than before.

You could say the same thing about PEDs.

by acblue on Mar 2, 2009 11:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Under these conditions

I think you’d have to set some sort of point – like 20/30 or 20/25 or something – up to which you allow athletes with bad eyes to have their vision corrected. You can’t just exclude anyone with bad eyes, since that’s crazy, but to me it seems like you should still allow the people born with awesome vision to have some kind of advantage.

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 1, 2009 8:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's probably more realistic

Most people would freak to eliminating those with glasses. I guess it’s a culture thing.

by Ezzra on Mar 1, 2009 8:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So the person born with 20/20 gets to have an advantage

over the person born with 20/30 vision, but the person born with 20/30 vision doesn’t get to have an advantage over the person born with 20/40 vision?

by Matthew on Mar 2, 2009 9:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You can't be perfect everywhere

and preventing any sort of eye correction at all simply isn’t realistic. You have to make a concession.

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 2, 2009 11:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm going to enhance my performance by maiming Pavel Kubina.

(How many people thought I was going to do a gay joke here?)

by Matthew on Mar 2, 2009 12:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You didn't?

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Mar 2, 2009 12:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why not.

We exclude people with small frames, bad balance, bad coordination, and lower densities of fast twitch muscles.

Why not bad eyesight?

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Mar 2, 2009 3:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know

But I suppose you could make the argument that, while people can live full, happy lives with small frames, bad balance, bad coordination, and lower densities of fast twitch muscles, it is much more difficult to live a full, happy life with unaddressed shitty vision, and so it’s a different issue. People need their eyes for reasons wholly unrelated to athletic competition.

I’m just brainstorming here, though. Maybe we should select against poor vision. If we want the purest sport possible, anyway. (Which I don’t.)

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 2, 2009 3:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know

Do you really think short people are happy or do they just not realize how great it is to be tall?

by Edgar for Pres on Mar 2, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The latter.

Tall = Awesome

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Mar 2, 2009 4:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We can correct small muscles, too.

With steroids.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Mar 2, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

As an optometry student...

And employee of an optometrist for about three years, I’m going to say based on experience that LASIK is basically wearing a contact lense. They both do precisely the same thing, and change the power or vergence of light at the cornea, the most powerful refractive surface of the eye.

Also, those people who say all LASIK patients see 20/15 are full of crap, and I’d say about 85% contact lens patients see better, and about 100% of glasses wearers see better. If you’re going to outlaw LASIK, you have to outlaw glasses and contact lenses too.

Steroids are illegal and completely detrimental to the body, they should be banned. LASIK, glasses, and contacts cause minor issues if any, and 88% of the population do need them to see clearly.

by dkulich on Mar 1, 2009 6:50 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

---
Steroids are illegal and completely detrimental to the body

You’re half right.

by acblue on Mar 1, 2009 6:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not even half.

A prescription can make them legal. And athletes have good friends who are doctors (but they don’t write prescriptions because that leaves a paper trail).

by Wilder. on Mar 1, 2009 6:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A legal prescription makes them legal.

Just like a legal prescription makes medicinal marajuana legal. If a doctor prescribes steroids to Barry Bonds, that’s on his ethical conscience and his legal problem too.

And don’t make me look up research on the detrimental effects of steroids. I’m on spring break and do NOT feel like going to PubMed.

by dkulich on Mar 1, 2009 6:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There is a difference between the type of steroids that a doctor prescribes for surgury recovery

and the stuff players use for the intention of performance enhancement. They are not the same.

That is like saying that Advil and Vicatin are the same because they can both give you relief from pain. But there is a reason you don’t see Vicatin on the shelf at Safeway.

by Jo-Jo on Mar 1, 2009 7:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That doesn't make them legal
And athletes have good friends who are doctors (but they don’t write prescriptions because that leaves a paper trail).

Not seeing the legality here

by Ezzra on Mar 1, 2009 6:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I am making a point of where we would be if steroids were acceptable in sports.

They would still be illegal, but a prescription would remedy that. But since steroids are looked down upon, any athlete would be stupid to fill out a prescription because it would be evidence of their use.

In fact, I think this is why a few players were caught a few years ago. They had prescriptions written-up and they were therefore caught.

by Wilder. on Mar 1, 2009 6:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lasik makes somebody's eyes better than they are naturally.

Steroids make somebody’s muscles better than they are naturally.

(These are obviously simplified explanations.)

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 1, 2009 6:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay,

then nobody should ever repair any part of the body that is less than perfect.

by Jo-Jo on Mar 1, 2009 6:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Like their muscles, in comparison to other athletes.

But I think Jeff said it best.

I’m suggesting that both Lasik and steroids artificially improve the performance of the body

So why get worked up and talk about asterisks and banning and all this other crap for either one?

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Mar 1, 2009 6:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not necessarily

Contact lenses don’t physically alter the body. But yes, that is just another gray area. If you have poor vision, maybe you aren’t supposed to be a competitive athlete.

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 1, 2009 6:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that statement is a bit sticky, Jeff.

Either way you look at it there is discrimination there.

Lasik was designed to improve a person’s quality of life through their vision. So you are either saying that a pro athlete shouldn’t have the right to a procedure that will help the see in all aspects of their life, or that if you don’t have good vision you should just play in the Special Olympics.

I respect, and understand what you are saying, but I think you’re a better communicator than that.

by Jo-Jo on Mar 1, 2009 6:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the discrimination Jeff was alluding to is exactly the point he is trying to make.

Jeff’s communication’s skills are superb and it is up to the reader to get it right.

by Wilder. on Mar 1, 2009 7:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

How good should a player's vision be allowed to get?

Player A has 20/25 vision. Player B has 20/20. Player A gets Lasik or contacts that take him up to 20/15.

Question 1: Is that fair?
Question 2: Why is that fair?

I’m not saying that athletes or people in general should never get eye correction, because people need to be able to see clearly to live. But how clear is clear? When does eye correction exceed correction and turn into enhancement?

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 1, 2009 7:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A perfect eye would see 20/15

75% of the population can see 20/15 if corrected by glasses. I see about 20/200 without glasses. With them I see 20/15. I have pretty decent uncorrected vision, but I’d be pretty much unable to function without correction and so would roughly 88% of the population.

20/20 would be considered perfect, for all intents and purposes. Most human eyes can’t really discriminate the change in power to go from 20/20 to 20/15, it’s so minute. But in the case of professional athletes, this kind of goes out the window.

Nike even had a contact lens line aimed at these type of people. Custom fit and polarized as well as slightly tinted, it increased resolution. That brand didn’t take off, and it no longer exists. Obviously the players or whoever did not feel much of a difference.

If the correction is available with ease to the general population, then these guys should definitely be able to take advantage of the services too.

by dkulich on Mar 1, 2009 7:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, since you know quite a bit about this stuff...

Do you remember hearing about a brand of contacts that were designed to make the white color of a baseball stand out against all other colors/shades? It was supposed to make the ball more visible at all times to the competitive athlete. What ever happened to those?

by johnbai on Mar 1, 2009 10:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I used those once.

I got them free at an eye doctor’s appointment.

I’m just not a huge fan of contact lenses in general (I actually wear my glasses for baseball), and these were no exception. They did definitely make white jump out though.

---
Juuuust a bit outside!!
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com

by Jack Moore on Mar 1, 2009 10:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

88% of the population might argue with you here...

And isn’t setting a broken bone would be unnatural would it not? What about ACL reconstruction? There’s a lot of things that you can consider altering the body that are done every day. Hey, look at Ichiro, he’s stretching… suspension.

by dkulich on Mar 1, 2009 6:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Right, and we wouldn't want athletes to stop having surgery.

That’s crazy talk. So then the question remains: where do you draw the line? How can you draw the line? Is it even possible to identify a line?

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 1, 2009 7:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gotcha...

I missed where you were going with that. But yeah, I definitely agree. But obviously the legality issues surrounding steroids play a very important role.

by dkulich on Mar 1, 2009 7:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure that would be a great idea...

If it weren’t for the major health concerns surrounding them… but I suppose you could say the same thing about hamburgers, salt, and donuts.

by dkulich on Mar 1, 2009 7:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The major health concerns are related to abuse.

Much like hamburgers, salt and donuts.

by acblue on Mar 1, 2009 7:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd say so.

But I’d also be very surprised if a majority of MLB players had 20/20 vision.

Actually, that’s a pretty interesting question and there’s no way we’ll ever know that, any of our stat sites keep records on which players wear contacts? We know Jay Bell wasn’t 20/20 haha

by dkulich on Mar 1, 2009 7:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Should (say) 20/20 or 20/10 vision be mandatory for all players, so as to create an even playing field?

Should some players have an advantage over others? Should players with worse vision be allowed to upgrade beyond that of others? Where’s the line between treatment and enhancement?

I don’t have answers for any of this, and for the record, I would rather players not use PEDs. I just find the whole subject to be fascinating.

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 1, 2009 7:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If a player can hit with 20/25 vision...

Which I’m sure some can. Honestly, when it gets down to it, that’s really detailed vision. You probably can see the ball coming in with a pretty big error in vision… to be honest.

And yeah, I’m not arguing with you at all, just trying to fill you in and give a little insight from a sort of doctor point of view? And yeah, I’m totally against PEDs too, but vision correction is done for everyone who needs it/can afford it, so I don’t really see a major issue there.

by dkulich on Mar 1, 2009 7:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure there's not that much of a difference between 20/25 and 20/15

but then I’ve never tried to hit against people throwing 95mph fastballs and 75mph curveballs, so I have no idea what effect it actually has on performance. Could be a lot. Could be nothing. (Kind of like steroids!)

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 1, 2009 7:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Where this really gets crazy...

is those players that are lucky enough to play into their 40s. They can no longer accommodate to see up close and need bifocals to see clearly. This is everyone, any person over 40. Does this mean they should all go pack up and retire?

by dkulich on Mar 1, 2009 7:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry typo...

I meant "If a player can hit with 20/25 vision, then go ahead and hit with 20/25 vision. But why not go get an eye exam. Most teams have an optometrist that travels with them. In fact, Edgar Martinez suffered from amblyopia (lazy eye) and had to do vision therapy before every game. So I’m kind of sure 99.9% of players that need correction have it in some sort of way.

by dkulich on Mar 1, 2009 7:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with that

But maybe it’s is because I am a glasses wearer that leads me to be sad at the thought of not being to compete with them. At first it seems like a way to draw even with others, but you’re right, it does make us better than we should be.

Perhaps the best of the best should also include eyesight, along with agility, strength, speed, etc.

by Ezzra on Mar 1, 2009 7:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Things like speed, strength, coordination, etc.

Can all be enhanced through workout regiments (that don’t involve steroids). Eye sight can’t. Should we not allow players to workout anymore to improve strength or speed?

me so cool

by Humongo on Mar 2, 2009 7:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But you can't really argue that there is a ceiling involved.

I had a friend and his twin (fraternal) brother that both were groomed to pitch from a young age, and attended the same trainers, played in the same leagues, practiced ~ the same amount, yet the brother pitched 85 and my friend pitched barely 80 once they got into high school.

Their arms capacities for fast twitch fibers are obviously different, and I’ve not read anything from anyone that says otherwise. Why should any other muscle fiber be different?

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Mar 2, 2009 1:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's because steroids harm the body

I kind of wonder if steroids would be in the Lasik group of “Frowned upon, but permitted” today if they weren’t degenerative to the body.

by Ezzra on Mar 1, 2009 6:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Given all the anti-steroid arguments I've heard and read from people

It doesn’t seem like the big issue is that they harm the players in the long run. Rather, it seems the issue is that it changes the balance of the playing field in the short run. You know. “Unfair” and “cheating” and all that. If people actually cared about the long-term health of elite athletes, they wouldn’t let people become elite athletes.

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 1, 2009 6:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I just want them to succeed on all levels

I want them to be the best they can be and then enjoy the rewards. I HATE hearing stories of athlete’s who died or suffered because of what they took during their prime. But it’s their dream and I’m not about to not support them over it.

In an ideal world, athletes would be successful and healthy. Since it isn’t gonna happen, I’d take healthy over successful anytime.

by Ezzra on Mar 1, 2009 6:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't they do the same thing...

to Mark Lowe’s elbow?

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Mar 1, 2009 5:58 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Not exactly, no

But it was the same general idea.

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 1, 2009 6:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I wonder if this idea didn't spring from microfracture

or if that was just the first application of the same principle.

I guess it’s not really the same principle, of one is attempting to grow cartilage, and one is attempting to ‘heal’ tendons/ligaments.

by marc w on Mar 2, 2009 11:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But it sort of is the same principle

in that you’re inducing healing by putting blood in an area that doesn’t get much blood.

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 2, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, that's true

I don’t know how different growing cartilage is from the vague ‘growing soft tissue’ mentioned in Tango’s blog post. But yes, they both clearly stem from the same general idea.
Still, I’m just hung up on the differences right now, given that one is a simple injection of platelets and one is fucking pulverizing bone.

by marc w on Mar 2, 2009 4:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gary Matthews (DH - ANA)

Oh, SBN….that contract is depressing. Thanks for reminding me.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Mar 1, 2009 6:08 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

I hate witch hunts as much as the next guy, but

steroids are against the rules. Medical treatment isn’t. (Unless of course, it’s getting steroids to assist in rehab. For some reason, we bar athletes from complete medical treatment for their on the job injuries when in any other profession is cause for a law suit. I’m digressing.)

I’m the only person I know of to have said (yeah, yeah, only in blogs and such…) that there needs to be a serious study in the role of drugs currently classified as “PEDs” in rehabing players and that, basically, there’s some argument to be made that if they have a significant injury reducing capacity, they should be legal and widely used by physicians treating baseball players. I’m still digressing, aren’t I?

by philosofool on Mar 1, 2009 6:30 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I'm totally agree

insofar as there is a very serious issue about what shouldn’t and shouldn’t be illegal.

But there’s a serious quesiton about whether the speed limit on the street by my house is high enough. Nevertheless, that’s the limit and it’s not up to me to decide that it should be higher. And I get a ticket if I’m caught breaking it.

Part of the deal with rules and laws is that you don’t get to have the discretion to decide to follow them or not. Even if they’re wonky, you still have to suffer the consequences for breaking them, insofar as they’re consquences enshrined in law. End of story. Even people breaking the law in order to protest the law (civil disobedience) don’t get to cry “unjust law” in their defense.

by philosofool on Mar 1, 2009 6:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you

Players who take PEDs should be punished, for as long as it is the law. I would just like to see the law either changed or explained.

by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 1, 2009 6:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The advantage

given to a player by steroids is not the same as the advantage given to a player by Lasik eye surgery. There aren’t players dominating the league that later were found out to have had Lasik. The repair vs. enhancement line is certainly blurry, but that doesn’t really seem to be the line to be looking at when trying to group Lasik and steroids into the same group.

by Zwakamatsu on Mar 1, 2009 8:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Playing devil's advocate

I still don’t know how the fuck you explain Bonds becoming the greatest hitter of all time at age of 40.

by JI on Mar 1, 2009 9:03 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I don't think anyone questions the effectiveness of steroids as they relate to recovering from injury.

An older player that doesn’t feel the ill effects of the aging curve but keeps all the positive effects is bound to be better.

I think the question is more whether they’re all that helpful to players still in their physical prime.

by acblue on Mar 1, 2009 9:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Haven't you seen Major League?

Wild Thing couldn’t find the strike zone until he got glasses, and then he became amazing.

There are no good individual basketball statistics.
54!

by joof on Mar 2, 2009 12:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure,

steroids and other PEDs are against the rules today. But 10, 15, 20 years ago they weren’t.

by Wilder. on Mar 1, 2009 7:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

*watches reply count climb*

I guess you don’t need this opener for your can of worms…

It's the economy, Manny!

by section331 on Mar 1, 2009 7:06 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Adequate vs. Optimal

An adequate level of vitamin C is only the amount necessary to ward off scurvy (deficiency). An optimal level is substantially higher.

Creatine is an excellent example is the phenomenon. If you’re eating a diet that contains adequate protein for survival you will ingest an adequate amount of creatine for your muscles to function. But this isn’t necessarily an optimal amount as it has been shown supplementing more of it does indeed increase the potential output of muscle cells.

GMJ’s blood injection is much the same. It ups naturally occurring substances in the blood to a more optimal level for healing.

I bring all of this up because taking vitamins, supplements and undergoing modern surgical procedures like Lasik all amount to pushing toward the magical land of optimal. These things are all widely accepted.

Steroids/Testosterone/HGH essentially do the same thing right? They raise the level of substances that naturally occur at an adequate level to a level more optimal for maximum athletic performance.

I don’t condone the use of these pharmaceutical substances but I accept the fact they exist in all sports and they have for a long time. It really isn’t the end of the world. The only place baseball has ever been a ‘pure’ game is the imaginations of the naive. Baseball is like a naughty girl I can’t get enough of….she might not be pristine and pure but I love her anyway!

 

"We are a bad defensive team." -B. Cashman

by Big Jared on Mar 1, 2009 8:02 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

The "why"
Before we go all crazy chasing after Alex Rodriguez and Barry Bonds and trying to erase their numbers from the record books, it might be a good idea to stop and ask ourselves, “why?”

If the use of steroids wasn’t illegal under federal law, I don’t think you’d being seeing so many people “go all crazy”. Steroids have been major issue in sports since, well we can debate the “when”…I’d go with since Ben Johnson but there are certainly incidents prior to that moment that brought the issue to the forefront.

Whether it be the International Olympic Committee, Congress, or the NFL/MLB, organizations and goverments view steroids as “bad”. That’s the message to society. And as long as that is the message to society then Bonds, A-Rod, and all the others that get caught with the proverbial needle, are going to receive scorn from the public.

While there are certainly reasons to suggest that steroids shouldn’t be view as “bad” (or differently that other medical and scientific advancement), I think the players themselves certainly do deserve the scorn that they receive; they know what the law is and they know what the public perception is.

by Scottie44 on Mar 1, 2009 8:05 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

But is "people think it's bad" really a good enough reason?

Because a lot of those people are ill-informed.

by acblue on Mar 1, 2009 9:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Athletes by and large don't give a good goddamn what "average people" think

so the mass condemnation of alleged steroid users probably doesn’t even register.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Mar 1, 2009 9:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Many narcisssists are actually extremely sensistive

to what other people think. They can’t stand the thought of not being loved. It’s a weird psychology.

by philosofool on Mar 2, 2009 7:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think steroids have been a major issue in sports since at least...

the 1963 San Diego Chargers who reportedly used steroids on their way to a league championship. And if it goes back that far… can we say definitively that Pete Rose, Mike Schmidt, Reggie Jackson or even Hank Aaron didn’t use them?

by johnbai on Mar 1, 2009 11:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is the problem I have with declaring "The Steroids Era."

Steroids have been around for decades, and yet we only have suspicions about the last 15-20 years.

by Wilder. on Mar 2, 2009 8:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

my steroids v. your steroids

Human bodies are archaic. It should be obvious by now. We need to rush our research dollars into improving athletic performance. Which might give Seattle’s military-medical complex an edge. We build extra-hard bodies nine ways. Minnesota and Baltimore would be good, too. Good research going on nearby. On the other hand, they are small market teams and might not be able to pay for adequate R&D. Johns Hopkins would sell its secrets to the Yankees, not the Orioles.

But eventually teams would want to have their own proprietary research, and they’d start drafting promising bio-chem kids along with the jocks. That would balance things nicely in your local high school. And then the stat guys would start measuring the effect a really good bio researcher can have on performance. Hey man, sure, that last batch was good, but small sample size, small sample size!

And steroids are so primitive. The bio-mechanical guys are going to get involved, because real arms are just not dependable — you spend a bunch of money on them and they blow out. And velocities top out at around 100 mph. You think that’s a fastball? That’s not a fastball! I think we’ve go bio-mechanics on this site that could break the sound barrier. Boom! Strike one.

Then again my onboard detection devices are pretty good. So that supersonic fastball is going to get rocked. Ballistic hard. Until they jam my radar. They are tricky, so tricky. We develop something, they counter. It’s always been like that. Always.

by flightrisk on Mar 1, 2009 10:46 PM PST reply actions   2 recs

Obviously I'm late on this thread

but with all due respect, I reject this premise. Injecting concentrated blood is an advancement in medicine to repair an injury. Same with Lasik. Steroids, on the other hand, make a person abnormally fast and strong. If roids were just used to quickly repair an injury, and not grow muscles way beyond what would normally be possible, that would be OK. Taking drugs to grow the body is like a cheat code in a video game. It’s bullshit and nobody wants to play with you when you cheat.

by lemonverbena on Mar 2, 2009 8:01 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

wait what?

If roids were just used to quickly repair an injury, and not grow muscles way beyond what would normally be possible, that would be OK.

You mean like Roger Clemens (allegedly) did? Steroids were not developed solely to let people cheat at sports – I take a steroid-based drug to combat hay fever, and people with cancer get steroid treatments all the time.

Taking drugs to grow the body is like a cheat code in a video game. It’s bullshit and nobody wants to play with you when you cheat.

It could be argued that repeatedly lifting steel plates to grow the body is the same. It’s enhancing what you already had. Why is that legal when steroids aren’t? That’s the point that has been repeatedly made upthread – where do you draw the line between what is legal/within the rules and what is not?

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Mar 2, 2009 8:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You draw the line at what is essentially a "hack" to the body. Repair ≠ hack.

1. Taking steroids to combat hay fever or repair an injury is entirely different than growing the body to abnormal levels in order to excel at sports. That’s where you draw the line. I spent a day with Clemens a few years back and can attest that whatever he had done, it was way beyond something to repair an injury.

2. Lifting steel plates is exercise. Exercise is natural preparation for sports. Taking a drug is a hack that grows the body beyond what exercise can do, and therefore, cheating.

by lemonverbena on Mar 2, 2009 8:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You make it sound like steroids grows extra arms and legs, which isn't something the body naturally grows.

But muscle naturally grows when you keep working out and adding weight. Steroids aide in the development of muscles, it doesn’t implant them unnaturally. If you take steroids but do not work out, it doesn’t do much for you. Steroids certainly doesn’t make you a superhero or turn on godmode with aimbot like you make it sound.

I understand the dislike toward steroids because I do not condone the use of them, but some of the arguments are baseless hyperbole.

by Wilder. on Mar 2, 2009 8:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you lemonverbena

There’s definitely a gray line there somewhere, and Jeff is having fun showing us how hard it is to defensibly define that line.

PDB… Godmode is defined by Barry Bonds stats from 2001 to 2004. Or Sosa or McGwire inflated numbers. Lazik has never given anyone a statistical advantage (over glasses or contacts) anywhere near that level.

by johnbai on Mar 2, 2009 11:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Exercise is as much of a hack as taking steroids though

at least to me. It’s taking the body’s its natural state and making it unnatural (if being that strong were the body’s natural state we’d all be that strong). I’m just trying to understand why one is over the line and one is not.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Mar 2, 2009 8:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

New suggestion

Each team is allowed one player who can do all the steriods he wants. Lets be honest, we all loved to see guys like Bonds and McGuire jacking home runs. By legally allowing one player, we can see a man-beast just destroy balls when he bats plus this way most players don’t need to sacrifice their health.

by Edgar for Pres on Mar 3, 2009 7:57 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

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