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Around SBN: Pacquiao vs Bradley: Potential Undercard Fighters

Daily? Rumor Open Thread III

Star_tiny by Poochie on

Byrd, Cameron on similar paths? — 12:00 p.m.

The markets for free agents Marlon Byrd and Mike Cameron continue running parallel to one another.

One major league source pointed out Wednesday morning that many of the same teams are interested in both players: The Braves, Angels, Cubs, Yankees, Mariners, Mets and Giants have checked on each of them.

Byrd and Cameron entered the marketplace as center fielders but have drawn interest from teams seeking help in the corners, the source said.

Byrd, 32, has the advantage of being younger than Cameron, who will play at 37 next year.

The Cardinals also view Byrd as one fallback option if they fail to re-sign left fielder Matt Holliday.

The Mariners, meanwhile, believe Cameron would be an ideal fit for the expansive left field at Safeco Field, but he hasn't played anywhere other than center since the 2005 season. -- Jon Paul Morosi

Star-divide

Source: Harden would sign 1-year deal — 1:34 p.m.

Rich Harden is drawing interest from a number of teams. On Wednesday afternoon, one source explained why: He is comfortable signing a one-year contract that would give him the opportunity to show that he's healthy before reentering the market next winter.

Much of the interest in Harden has come from the American League, the source said, with the Mariners, Yankees and Red Sox being the most serious contenders.

The Angels are not involved, the source indicated.

A one-year contract for the 28-year-old right-hander would assuredly include a large incentive package. The base salary itself should fall within the range established by other recent starter signings.

Harden's 2009 season was good but not great: 9-9 with a 4.09 ERA in 26 starts for the Cubs. But he has shown that he can dominate AL lineups when healthy, which should work in his favor during negotiations.

It could be argued that his season was at least as impressive as Brad Penny's, and Penny signed a one-year, $7.5 million with the Cardinals.

But Harden might have difficulty topping the roughly $12 million that Andy Pettitte will receive on his one-year deal with the Yankees; Pettitte had the better overall season (and October success) while pitching in the more offensive league. -- Jon Paul Morosi

 

via FoxSports

 

Have at it baby birds

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Read More: Mike Cameron (CF - WAS), Marlon Byrd (CF - CHC), Seattle Mariners

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I thought Carlos Guillen Hated Seattle?

Also where would he play?

Saw this tid bit from stone

Hank Blalock, who could fill their first base/DH hole and has the Don Wakamatsu stamp of approval from his coaching days in Texa

I thought Blalock was terrible?

Its finally happened.

by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 9, 2009 10:29 AM PST reply actions  

I imagine Giullen would be a bench player (assuming he assumed Silva's place on the payroll)

And he would bat right handed when we needed a right handed batter, play 1st when Branyan can’t, and play thrid when someone who plays OF/2B needs a day off.

by Poochie on Dec 9, 2009 10:30 AM PST up reply actions  

I think you're underrating how good Guillen is.

Just 3-4-5ing his wOBAs gives .347, and his BABIP tanked last year with no change in LD%

by Graham MacAree on Dec 9, 2009 10:34 AM PST up reply actions  

I would do that trade, sign Beltre, sign Harden, and sign Branyan.

I think that would be an amazing offseason. Plus the money should work.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 9, 2009 10:42 AM PST up reply actions  

No, I don't think you did specifically.

But I am sure it was you were thinking when you said “he would bat right handed when we needed a right handed batter.”

by Wilder. on Dec 9, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions  

Guillen could bat right-handed in LF or at 1B if need be to give other guys "a day off."

In context you were looking at Guillen as a bench bat who could fill in at positions to give guys a day off. Usually players at DH don’t need a day off unless they have a huge platoon split.

by Wilder. on Dec 9, 2009 11:02 AM PST up reply actions  

Uh, I think you are taking this way too seriously.

You’re assuming things that you may have thought but didn’t specifically say and telling me that I should have understood what you were thinking, even though it wasn’t in context of what you wrote.

Tell me how to read your mind and I will try to do it.

by Wilder. on Dec 9, 2009 11:08 AM PST up reply actions  

Good dogs go to dog heaven.

Bad dogs, like Hitler’s dog, Nixon’s dog, and the Lassie that mauled Timmy, all go to hell.

by Jed MC on Dec 9, 2009 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes, because writing "DH" would be the longhand version of "he would bat right handed when we needed a right handed batter."

And again, it is about context. You were envisioning Guillen as a bench bat who would be able to play the field to give other guys a day off. Like I said before, usually players at DH don’t need a day off unless they have a huge platoon split. If a player is part of a platoon at DH, they are not exclusively a bench bat, which you envisioned Guillen to be.

Write more clearly and maybe the “smart” audience will be able to understand what you are trying to say.

by Wilder. on Dec 9, 2009 11:31 AM PST up reply actions  

If he can handle second, then yes, he would be very good

He hasn’t played second for a very long time, and his stints at third weren’t the greatest (although yes, 3rd and 2nd do have their differences), so right now I’m not assuming he can easily do so.

by Poochie on Dec 9, 2009 10:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Because he could be league averagey at first base.

It wouldn’t be that hard for him to be a 1.5-2 WAR player

by Graham MacAree on Dec 9, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Obviously.

What I’m saying, unless I am misunderstanding this, is that Guillen would more or less assume Silva’s spot on the payroll, so that really would change the amount of money we have to go after talent with.

I would love for this trade to go down, obviously, but I don’t see why we would use Guillen as an everyday player at first unless we got something super awesome somewhere else because he doesn’t profile as being a very good firstbaseman.

by Poochie on Dec 9, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

It would be maximing Guillen's value

If you’re paying a guy and he can be average at a position, might as well use him there and worry about signings elsewhere.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 9, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Haha

Please sign Blalock and his .270 OBP!

"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.

by Kinslerhomer on Dec 9, 2009 10:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Why...

would the Dodgers want Silva? Seems like a pipe dream to me.

by Dave Clapper on Dec 9, 2009 11:55 AM PST up reply actions  

The idea is to make it Silva plus

and they’d be into it because it allows them to lose Pierre.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 1:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, the problem is still this though
The Dodgers want a reliable pitcher in exchange for Pierre.

Silva isn’t a reliable pitcher in any sense of the word and I’m sure they realize that.

by OlSalty on Dec 9, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah well

it was just some blogger’s pipe dream anyway.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 1:37 PM PST up reply actions  

But...

Silva costs more than Pierre. And throw in another player (Dave suggests Lopez), it becomes even more of a disparity. Dave also suggests evening out the dollars somehow. To even out the difference between Lopez+Silva and Pierre, that adds up to a nice chunk of change:
Pierre: 18.5
Silva: 25.5 (including the 2M buyout for ‘12)
Lopez: 2.3+ (Cot’s isn’t super-clear, so I’ll go with the lowest number for purposes of argument)

Difference is 9.3 million on the low end.

Fangraphs projects Lopez at 2.3 WAR. They don’t have Guillen projected yet, but Dave says 1.5-2.0. Silva’s not projected yet, either, but I think we all pretty much see him at 0 at this point.

So we send 2.3 WAR (and young) + 9.3 million in exchange for 1.5-2.0 WAR (and on the downside) plus… what?

Or substitute in a replacement-level player for Lopez, I suppose, and we have to send 7 million instead (and pick up 1.5-2.0 WAR).

With Lopez in the deal, I can’t make numbers make sense, unless the Dodgers send back a legitimate piece, but why would they do that?

Yeah, they want to shed Pierre’s salary, but to set it up so they even break even financially costs us 7 million plus.

Dave’s analysis always seems spot on to me, but this looks way off.

by Dave Clapper on Dec 9, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions  

But again...

No matter how Dombrowski tries to spin it, they’re trying to shed payroll, too. How much $ are they going to be willing to throw in?

by Dave Clapper on Dec 9, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, they -would- be shedding payroll

Pierre makes like $9M less than Guillen over the next two years.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 9, 2009 1:56 PM PST up reply actions  

But again again...

How much of that do the Tigers have to throw in if the M’s aren’t throwing it in?

by Dave Clapper on Dec 9, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't know if the Yanks have the pitching depth any more to take on a risk like him

having just dealt Kennedy. He makes a ton of sense in Seattle because we’ve got so many 4/5 types ready to step in if need be.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 10:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Sure

but they’re trying to cut payroll a little this season and are already at 200M or so. Besides which every dollar they spend at this point is subject to luxury tax… I’m not saying they won’t do it, just that they’ve already spent a ton on their rotation with Sabathia Burnett and Pettitte and have little depth for the 4/5 slots. Signing another guy for about 10M when he can’t be counted on to last the season would be difficult to justify, especially with safer options out there.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 11:25 AM PST up reply actions  

Holy balls

looking at Cot’s… Austin Jackson got a .8M signing bonus as an 8th rounder.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 11:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Cameron's latest tweet:

“The Mariners have to lead the league in interview/transaction ratio. RT @TheRealMariners: Wak with the gang from MLB Network”

This made me laugh.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 11:41 AM PST reply actions  

Millwood probably going to O's for bad reliever

Can’t imagine how they could make this work without paying some of his salary. I hope this is just to balance the books for them, because I’d hate to have the Rangers now looking at Harden as well… Nevertheless, way to go Daniels.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 11:43 AM PST reply actions  

Good.

But I’ve also been hearing that their finances are a mess, so I don’t even know if shedding 12M in salary will allow them to make any further moves or makes them merely solvent or the year.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 11:51 AM PST up reply actions  

So the Rockies hate Eric Young Jr

Seems like a good trade candidate to me. Maybe Lopez+ would do it.

Last.fm me!

by lailaihei on Dec 9, 2009 11:52 AM PST via mobile reply actions  

Maybe a 3-way deal?

Eric Young Jr is awesome, young, and could be our third Ichiro. It shouldn’t take too much to get him as there are rumors about them extending Barmes, interested in Jose Lopez, etc…

Last.fm me!

by lailaihei on Dec 9, 2009 12:18 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Where would Lopez play?

It would have to be a three way if they are extending Barmes. Helton’s still around for another two years. Their infield is pretty much full of better or equal options to Lopez.

by Mariner John on Dec 9, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions  

" Hearing Rangers will pay $3M of Millwood's $12M salary in deal with O's."

ESPN Twitter, URGHHHH, it’s like a reverse Bedard deal.

Fuck you, Baltimore.

by EnglishMariner on Dec 9, 2009 12:12 PM PST reply actions  

A little more on the Felix situation

From Drayer and Salk

This is important. Pucino revealed that the two sides did have discussions about a long term deal two years ago, but those decisions obviously did not go anywhere. He insists there were no hard feelings from Felix about not being able to get a deal done then. He then stressed that Felix could not be happier with his experience with the team last season. He enjoyed the clubhouse immensely and developed excellent relationships with both Don Wakamatsu and Rick Adair.

by OlSalty on Dec 9, 2009 12:29 PM PST reply actions  

Slow newsday, but Baker just updated his twitter.

“Scott Boras says five or six teams in on Beltre, Sea being one”

Nothing we don’t already know, but it’s the closest thing we’ve had to news in awhile.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 9, 2009 12:40 PM PST reply actions  

And now one from Stone too.

“Mike Scioscia says that Jason Bay isn’t a high priority for the Angels.”

by BrettJMiller on Dec 9, 2009 12:41 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm starting to feel bad for Bay

every GM is tripping over himself to be the first to say that they don’t really want Bay on their team that much.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 12:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Now ESPN Twitter is saying "nothing close for Red Sox, Bay."

So much for testing the market, I guess.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 1:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Rosenthal just updated his Twitter...

Says Giants and Mariners are still in on Nick Johnson, neither one is giving him the two years he wants, though.

by seattlesundevil on Dec 9, 2009 1:02 PM PST reply actions  

One year with an option and playing-time incentives should be enough to get it done, I would think.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Not if Nick Johnson wants security.

Playing time incentives can be manipulated by the Mariners and don’t offer much security with his injury history.

by Wilder. on Dec 9, 2009 1:49 PM PST up reply actions  

I wouldn't have a problem giving him two years...

It’s sort of a given that he’s going to miss playing time due to minor injuries, picking him up for two years just spreads out that risk a bit more. As long as he’s willing to discount his rate a bit for that second year, I don’t have a problem.

Last.fm me!

by lailaihei on Dec 9, 2009 1:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, neither do I.

It’s not like he will be blocking a big time prospect from 1B or DH.

by Wilder. on Dec 9, 2009 2:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Beltre, Guillen, Cameron...

We’re like the Royals, going after all these old M’s guys!

by apunetid on Dec 9, 2009 1:13 PM PST reply actions  

Except those old M's guys are actually good. Jack Z is the reverse-Dayton Moore.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions  

HEY LOOK SOMETHING HAPPENED

“From Buster: Sources say that Rich Harden is on the verge of an agreement. It was not immediately known which team signed him, but he has been heavily involved in negotiations with the Mariners. "

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 1:45 PM PST reply actions  

Christ today has bene worse than yesterday

the big deal story has been that the Marlins are about to trade a reliever. FUCK.

But a Harden signing would be nice.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 1:49 PM PST up reply actions  

I would go NUTS every Harden day. He will be SO much fun to watch.

The man has lead the majors (among starting pitchers) in swinging strike % the two years. He had 15.1% last year – next highest was Javier Vazquez at 12.4. INSANE.

by Decatur on Dec 9, 2009 1:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Where would that leave us?

Felix, Harden, RRS?, Snell?, Vargas/Morrow/French/Fister/Etc… Still not quite a net strength.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 2:02 PM PST up reply actions  

I expect that Z will do everything possible to land a #2.

That’s, I guess, why we keep hearing these “they’re trying to move Lopez” rumors. Even with the tight ship the M’s front office run, the word will get out if they’re shopping Lopez because of the other teams.

by Decatur on Dec 9, 2009 2:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Dave Cameron Tweeted that he likes the chances it's the Mariners that Harden is signing with.
#d_a_cameron Olney says Harden about to sign – odds are good that it’s with the Mariners.

I will smash your face into a jelly.

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 9, 2009 2:09 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm a little surprised

I haven’t heard anything about Sheets or Bedard.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 9, 2009 2:00 PM PST reply actions  

I don't think Bedard will sign until he can pitch.

Which won’t be until early-mid next season. If he signs a deal, it won’t pay much and will be the for the express purpose to use the organization’s resources to get back in shape.

by Wilder. on Dec 9, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Morosi updated his twitter 9 minutes ago with this:

“Rich Harden in talks with #Mariners, source says.”

If Olney said Harden was on the verge of signing before that Tweet, and he’s talking with us, could that mean…hm…

by BrettJMiller on Dec 9, 2009 2:10 PM PST reply actions  

x
@craigcalcaterra Word is: Rich Harden deal: Is done @ $7.5 guaranteed for 1 + a club option at $11.5.

"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.

by Kinslerhomer on Dec 9, 2009 2:13 PM PST reply actions  

I'm lost on the money.

If that is the M’s how much does that leave Z in the bank for 1B/DH and Beltre?

Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.

p.s. fuck you angels

by InSpokane on Dec 9, 2009 2:16 PM PST up reply actions  

from his blog at NBC sports

Update: Craig’s source is hearing one-year, $7.5 million with an $11.5 million option for 2011. Possibly with the Mariners.

Sources are telling ESPN’s Buster Olney that free agent Rich Harden is on the verge of an agreement with a mystery team.

Speculation had the Rangers being very interested in Harden if they could move Kevin Millwood first, so given the timing, Texas would seem to be a possibility. The Red Sox, Yankees and Mariners are among the other teams considering Harden, who is believed to be willing to accept a one-year deal so that he can attempt to rebuild his value and go back onto the market."

"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.

by Kinslerhomer on Dec 9, 2009 2:14 PM PST reply actions  

And it sounds official

“Breaking: Rich Harden to Texas. One year, $7.5 million with an $11.5 million option.”

GOD FUCKING DAMNINT FUCK I HAD MY HOPES UP

by Brian Floyd on Dec 9, 2009 2:21 PM PST reply actions  

"Breaking: Rich Harden"

I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on Dec 9, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

WHAT THE FUCK

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 2:21 PM PST reply actions  

Jesus Christ

Who the hell said it was the Rangers? Its just a passing mention in a blog, right? I’m no longer surprised that Seattle has such a high suicide right.

Carlos Silvelite

by OceanBird on Dec 9, 2009 2:22 PM PST reply actions  

Real original

[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]

by bluemax on Dec 9, 2009 2:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Fuck Harden

He’s just gonna get injured within a week.

Carlos Silvelite

by OceanBird on Dec 9, 2009 2:24 PM PST reply actions  

Rangers MLB.com guy says Rangers

"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.

by Kinslerhomer on Dec 9, 2009 2:30 PM PST reply actions  

WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON?

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 2:31 PM PST reply actions  

2:14 PM PST

When the 2009 Winter Meetings stopped being boring.

by Jed MC on Dec 9, 2009 2:32 PM PST reply actions  

Wow this is pretty interesting.

I picked a pretty good time for my first rumor check-in of the day.

angels fan in seattle

by Eyebrows on Dec 9, 2009 2:32 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

I AM SO FUCKING CONFUSED.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 2:32 PM PST reply actions  

This is insane.

The last time my emotions went up and down this fast, I was on Welbutrin trying to quit smoking.

by Dave Clapper on Dec 9, 2009 2:35 PM PST reply actions  

Freaking Texas.

I hope he gives up a Home run on every pitch.

by ARock on Dec 9, 2009 2:36 PM PST reply actions  

God damn you,

President James K. Polk, God damn you to hell.

by Liebkartoffel on Dec 9, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions  

I remember one fact from AP US History in high school:

James K Polk had chronic diarrhea and couldn’t leave the Whitehouse very often on account of it.

by abender20 on Dec 9, 2009 2:41 PM PST up reply actions  

The primary ailment he had is rather a more terrifying story.

It involves surgery that left him sterile and in pain for the rest of his life. That certainly didn’t help.

by Decatur on Dec 9, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Lucky, we just got

various grisly Disneyland death stories from our teacher, who used to work there. Actually…no, that was pretty awesome.

by Liebkartoffel on Dec 9, 2009 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

YES YES YES!

You, sir, have earned a rec for your masterful use of a Star Trek VI quote.

I will smash your face into a jelly.

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 9, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Someone had better explain what happened here

And why there was so much confusion over which team signed him.
Getting our hopes up makes it even worse than if Texas simply signed him

by ARock on Dec 9, 2009 2:37 PM PST reply actions  

well, one thing was:

@shannondrayer: Sorry about the Harden, as you notice it wasn’t my @. Someone at studio got excited and tweeted when I said I needed to check it out.

by msb on Dec 9, 2009 8:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Hey

so you guys think it is Texas? Should we trust Shannon Drayer? Cause the Texas beat reporter changed his story to a maybe.

by ab03 on Dec 9, 2009 2:41 PM PST reply actions  

ok

well, with all that being said, it is still a maybe to the rangers. medical reports need to be evaluated. wouldnt’ be the first time the rangers had an agreement in principle and then backed otu after looking over medical reports.

but i will leave you. I hate people from other boards on ours and i assume the feeling is mutual

by ab03 on Dec 9, 2009 2:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Not cool, Shannon. Not cool at all.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 2:41 PM PST reply actions  

Well my day is ruined

My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!

by gregrabble on Dec 9, 2009 2:45 PM PST reply actions  

Yep, this is definitely Baltimore's fault

The team that keeps on giving…..us an ass raping

by Brian Floyd on Dec 9, 2009 2:47 PM PST reply actions  

I started texting "Tejada!" to my friends.

And then I felt like a huge jackass 10 minutes later.

by Kyle Rancourt on Dec 9, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions  

This sucks.

I wonder what Jack’s Plan B is now.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 2:49 PM PST reply actions  

Loafie and Morrow for Halladay!

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 2:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Josh Johnson?

Texas wasn’t going to give up Feliz and Smoak, so maybe the price will come down.

by Wilder. on Dec 9, 2009 2:54 PM PST up reply actions  

You got that one wrong I think

They were giving up Feliz and Smoak but the Marlins wanted more.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 2:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, not happening for us.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 2:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I can't believe this is true

But fuck them if so, they are dumb.

by Gihyou on Dec 9, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions  

At $12M, when we still need to address 1B/DH? No thank you.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 2:55 PM PST up reply actions  

I keep hearing Sheets wants $12+ mill per

I’d love him for the 7.5 that Harden got, though

by Kyle Rancourt on Dec 9, 2009 2:55 PM PST up reply actions  

That figure was certainly put out by his agent.

He’s not going to get 12 guaranteed.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 2:57 PM PST up reply actions  

For what it's worth...

the Rangers agreed in principle with him last year for ~$8 plus incentives, but it fell through once they did the physical.

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Dec 9, 2009 3:07 PM PST up reply actions  

You are crazy

He has tricked you with his gypsy magic. He is nothing.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 9, 2009 2:57 PM PST up reply actions  

You can't just assume last year means he's suddenly good.

He sucked as recently as 2008. Before this year, his last season over 1 WAR was 2005…

by BrettJMiller on Dec 9, 2009 3:00 PM PST up reply actions  

It's not like he suddenly got lucky or struck out way more people than in the past.

He dropped his walk rate a ton (expect it to jump up to average again) and started making hitters pound it into the ground (regress a little, but he is a different pitcher than before). If he’s a 4.0 FIP pitcher and pitches 170 innings, he’s well worth that 3/26 or whatever.

Last.fm me!

by lailaihei on Dec 9, 2009 3:05 PM PST up reply actions  

He had 2 major changes from his previous years:

1. HUGE jump in GB%
2. Lower walk rate

1 is easily explained by him picking up that sinking fastball. All of his other pitches maintained mostly the same value, while his fastball went up drastically. Unless he forgets how to throw the SFB, his GB% won’t drop a ton. Here’s something to read on the subject.

2. Well, that’s probably going to go a lot closer to his career rates.

Last.fm me!

by lailaihei on Dec 9, 2009 3:13 PM PST up reply actions  

The ground balls appear to be real.

But yeah, I’m still a little skeptical.

by Teej on Dec 9, 2009 3:21 PM PST up reply actions  

What lailaihei said

He was a drastically different pitcher last year than in years past. Over the last 2 years, he’s transitioned from throwing his 4-seamer ~60% and his 2-seamer ~10% to just about flip-flopping those numbers. I think he threw his 2-seamer close to 70% last year and practically refused to give up homers and walks. So measuring what he did in the past is probably not going to tell you much about him now.

It’s hard to imagine him being able to keep his walk and homer rates down to the level we saw last year, but there’s a real good chance that he’ll be a lot better than before.

If someone wants to pay him thinking he’s going to repeat last year, well, good luck to them. But he’s been very durable and should probably get a deal like most average-ish starters get, something like what lailaihei suggested.

by nathaniel dawson on Dec 9, 2009 5:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Depends on how much you think 2009 was improvement, and how much was a fluke.

I don’t think anyone expects him to be a ~5 win pitcher again next year, but his WAR has been below 1 every single year until this one since 2006. Is it really safe to assume he’d be more than a 4.30 FIP, 2-3 WAR pitcher at best next year? Not that it doesn’t have it’s value, but he seems hard to predict.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 9, 2009 8:15 PM PST up reply actions  

He clearly not as good as 2009, but he did learn a new pitch last year

so I’m optimistic he can keep his tRA in the low fours.

I just wouldn’t want to commit an assload of resources to him.

by Poochie on Dec 9, 2009 8:22 PM PST up reply actions  

I think he's likely to perform better than that, I just feel he's too risky.

While he may maintain a FIP under 4.30, or a tRA in the low-to-mid 4s, it’s probably just personal bias that makes me believe he could always collapse back to his old self at any time.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 9, 2009 8:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Dude, he was fucking awesome last year

He’s be worth $10m over one year let alone two.

And yes it is your bias, because he learned a new pitch. It’s not like he lucked his way into a Washburn style 1st half.

by Poochie on Dec 9, 2009 8:42 PM PST up reply actions  

I know he learned a new pitch, but that doesn't mean he's gonna stay this good.

He may not regress as far as I’m thinking, and may very well be worth $10 million a year, but I wouldn’t want to be the team paying him that.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 9, 2009 8:46 PM PST up reply actions  

10 million over one year, less over a LT deal.

I don’t know why you’d think he’d regress to 2008 Piniero unless you think he’s completely going to abandon his new sinker, but I don’t think its nuts to think he’ll be above average going forward.

by Poochie on Dec 9, 2009 8:47 PM PST up reply actions  

I think he can be above average going forward.

I’m just not seeing anything close to his 3.27 FIP, 3.46 tRA in the future. I don’t think he’ll be at the 2008 level or anything, but I think a 4.30 FIP is something I can see him doing going forward…maybe. That’s valuable, but I’m just gun shy on him.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 9, 2009 9:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Joel Pineiro fucking sucks

He deserves nothing. Anything he receives should be evenly dispersed between all of us for the shit we had to watch.

Like I said before. He is tricking you. He did well last year but he hasn’t changed. He’s the same talentless assclown.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 9, 2009 9:12 PM PST up reply actions  

His GB rate spiked with the addition of a new pitch and he cut his walks in half.

I don’t think he’s the star he was last year, but he’s not garbage.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 9, 2009 9:15 PM PST up reply actions  

I just think its really preliminary

to say he’s put his past behind him. Washburn supposedly learned new pitches and was better for short stints. I’m very skeptical of pitchers who learn new pitches. Plus I doubt the new found control he showed will stay with him. Its pretty surprising that his control was so consistent and then became spectacular. Combine all that with very low HR rates (may be from higher GB%) and it all just makes me feel like he’s most likely going to return to his old ways.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 9, 2009 9:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Fuck, I accidentally hit enter twice. Shaky hands.

But Washburn learning new pitches never led to any difference in his important numbers. Pineiro had actual change in performance with his new pitch. Washburn kind of had that with the “flipper”, then he got hurt and sucky before there was enough sample size on the pitch.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 9, 2009 9:39 PM PST up reply actions  

It helped him for a few months

Is there really a big difference between 3 months and a season?

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 9, 2009 9:44 PM PST up reply actions  

A few months?

He only fell off a little in September

by Poochie on Dec 9, 2009 9:46 PM PST up reply actions  

What if baseball was one month longer

Would Pineiro have had his version of Washburn’s September?

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 9, 2009 9:47 PM PST up reply actions  

That's such a ridiculous comparison

Just because you hate the guy doesn’t mean he’s Jarrod Washburn. Washburn ran a tRA upwards of 5, Pineiro was a legit Cy Young candidate.

by Poochie on Dec 9, 2009 9:50 PM PST up reply actions  

3.46 tRA

It’s so weird to think that Joel Pineiro did that over a full season.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 9, 2009 9:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah I'm just not about to believe one year

He had a good year. I’d just really be concerned and not ignore the years previous. I basically think Pineiro has the upside to be Jason Marquis next year. Downside is to turn into old Pineiro.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 9, 2009 10:13 PM PST up reply actions  

How about Derek Lowe?

Apparently the Braves are willing to eat some of his contract.

by Wilder. on Dec 9, 2009 2:57 PM PST up reply actions  

haha, Johnson a Mariner?

I bet he ends up in Boston or New York where he’ll rot.

Carlos Silvelite

by OceanBird on Dec 9, 2009 2:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah they need to just go for hitters.

Nick Johnson, maybe Mike Cameron, Branyan…

Definitely not Bay, probalby not Lackey imo.

by ARock on Dec 9, 2009 2:56 PM PST reply actions  

Wins are Wins...

Doesnt matter where they come from, just what you have to pay for them.’

Just need to find another way to spend the Harden money that gives us several wins.

by ARock on Dec 9, 2009 3:01 PM PST up reply actions  

We're fucked. This guy made the most sense in terms of upside and contract.

Now we’re stuck either overpaying for Lackey, or giving up our prospects for a starting pitcher (and I can’t even think of a good one available)

by Rudy4three on Dec 9, 2009 3:01 PM PST reply actions  

I dont know.

I think we might be able to find a cheap flyballer available who could give us some innings… not that that is desirable, but our D would make him appear more valuable than he is for a trade later on. Just look at Washburn last year.

by zeeehjee on Dec 9, 2009 3:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Not to foster false hope or anything,

The most we’ve heard is that Texas is ‘close’ to signing Harden, and that Harden is also talking extensively with Seattle. No announcements have been made.

by sammy on Dec 9, 2009 3:05 PM PST reply actions  

DON'T GET MY HOPES UP AGAIN

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 3:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Reading through this thread was an emotional roller coaster.

O well, hopefully Harden gets shelled and put on the DL. Time to focus on Bedard or the trade market.

2009 Safeco Field Record: 6-0 ; Overall Safeco Field Record: 10-4

by Fin on Dec 9, 2009 3:09 PM PST reply actions  

So now we're back to sitting around and waiting for something to happen.

I love the winter meetings.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 3:12 PM PST reply actions  

Shannon redemmed.

shannondrayer
  
Sorry about the Harden, as you notice it wasn’t my @. Someone at studio got excited and tweeted when I said I needed to check it out.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 3:15 PM PST reply actions  

If Z wanted him we'd have him

This just kinda shows how dumb Harden is. As some of you have said, Arlington is no place to revive one’s career. Driving a streak into it? Yes, that is more like it. His stats in Arlington are pretty funny. Who knows, this could EASILY blow up in the Rangers’ face.

Carlos Silvelite

by OceanBird on Dec 9, 2009 3:16 PM PST reply actions  

Ugh

You mean he isn’t a mythical creature that can have whoever he wants!? I know he probably wanted him, I’m just trying to lighten up the situation.

Carlos Silvelite

by OceanBird on Dec 9, 2009 3:21 PM PST up reply actions  

So I left for about an hour and a half and missed all the Harden stuff

It was interesting to watch the wave of emotion from elation to shock to anger to disappointment. Eventually we’ll get to acceptance.

by Gihyou on Dec 9, 2009 3:17 PM PST reply actions  

Please no

Not for the money he wants

by tait644 on Dec 9, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Tosser.

I will smash your face into a jelly.

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 9, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes.

I will smash your face into a jelly.

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 9, 2009 3:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Nice.

Thought you might have been commenting on Chapman’s pitching. Fanstastic comment overall.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Actually...

..it used to be that way. Baseball players coming in from abroad were classified as seasonal workers and there were only a certain number of visas allotted each year to the teams. This resulted in a cycle of ugliness where talented international prospects got passed over in favor of domestics with inferior performances, simply because teams couldn’t afford to give one of their visas to them.

A few years back, the MLB talked lawmakers into reclassifying baseball players as entertainers, who are granted unlimited visas. It’s had a huge impact, but no one really talks about it much because it pertains to prospects unknown to most people.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 6:06 PM PST up reply actions   3 recs

Interesting.

You get a rec for that.

angels fan in seattle

by Eyebrows on Dec 9, 2009 6:23 PM PST up reply actions  

I was in contact with some players from Australia and South Africa who got screwed by this.

I was happy when the rules finally changed for the better, but it was a bit too late for those guys to benefit, and there wasn’t a whole lot I could do to assist them in the matter either. The whole arrangement before was just awful.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 7:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Could it be that Harden

Simply doesn’t want to play in Seattle? We did draft him, didn’t we?

by TheTank123 on Dec 9, 2009 3:27 PM PST reply actions  

This is what I'm inclined to believe.

Either that or Texas offered more, and Jack didn’t want to get into a bidding war.

Hardly a damnable strategy since Bavasi seemed to always be bidding against himself.

by xero3k on Dec 9, 2009 3:28 PM PST up reply actions  

For what it's worth...
@ari_bo_bari Haha, Harden on pitching in Oakland: We get a lot of cool nights. I’m more at home in that weather than in Texas, where it’s hot and humid.

If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.

by GhettoBear04 on Dec 9, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Bright side?

Jack Z seems to be WAYYYY better at the “Plan B” than Bavasi. (Well, better than everything, really.)

angels fan in seattle

by Eyebrows on Dec 9, 2009 3:32 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

I wonder if Nolan Ryan being in the Rangers' FO helped get Harden.

If I were a pitcher about Harden’s age, I would have probably grown up idolizing the guy.

I will smash your face into a jelly.

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 9, 2009 3:36 PM PST reply actions  

It just doesn't make sense

Why in the world would a pitcher jump for a higher contract now to play in Texas when he could reestablish his value in a park like Safeco? If I were Jack Z. I would approach every negotiation with a pitcher by walking into a room and putting down this number on a piece of paper:

2.64

Any defense/park combo that can give Washburn that ERA should be a pitcher’s dream.

I know ERA doesn’t matter. Player’s don’t seem to.

by TheTank123 on Dec 9, 2009 3:44 PM PST reply actions  

The comment

was predicated on the fact that we couldn’t have been too far off. If we offered 3 mil a year then I can understand it, but turning down 6.75 to take 7.5 seems weird.

by TheTank123 on Dec 9, 2009 3:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Put yourself in that position

Would you rather have $6.5 million dollars or $7.5 million? I’ll take 7.5 every time, pretty much. These guys are in this to maximize their income now, not to take less money somewhere this year in hopes that they stays healthy and don’t collapse in the coming year in order to cash in.

Sometimes, most of the time, it’s purely about maximizing dollars and nothing more.

by pdb on Dec 9, 2009 3:50 PM PST up reply actions  

That's what gets me, Graham

I find it impossible to believe that we wouldn’t have offered something comparable. It’s funny, though, I saw a flurry of “Harden signs with Rangers” notes now they seem to be disappearing. Maybe it was all an elaborate ruse…

by TheTank123 on Dec 9, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions  

If I were in that position

I’d sign with the Yankees and try to win another World Series.

by TheTank123 on Dec 9, 2009 3:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Salary?

I was ignoring salary, solely meant a chance at being on a winning team. Obviously the cost of living is greater in NYC than anywhere else.

by TheTank123 on Dec 9, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I doubt Harden cares about winning since he hasn't had a big payday.

Beltre is a player who would care more about going to a winning team than have another big payday (and I believe he was quoted during the season saying something along these lines).

For Harden, he needs to get the best deal possible each year until he hits the big payday. $7.5 is enough to retire on, but retirement for a professional athlete is much longer than someone like you or me.

by Wilder. on Dec 9, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions  

I know

Doesn’t mean if he called them and said I’ll pitch for a year for 2 mil they wouldn’t take him.

The salaries don’t make sense, the teams don’t align right, I know, I just know I would rather win than make more money.

by TheTank123 on Dec 9, 2009 4:01 PM PST up reply actions  

I think we might be taking the park-factor thing to far.

If Harden is healthy he’s going to be good for Texas, plus as Graham mentioned Texas is probably closer to a championship.

SEA!

by MFAN on Dec 9, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Who the hell is Robert Rodriguez?
StoneLarry Mariner minor-leaguer Robert Rodriguez suspended 50 games after testing positive for performance-enhancing substance

by Decatur on Dec 9, 2009 3:48 PM PST reply actions  

I guess Rodriguez decided to give up on the whole movie thing.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 3:50 PM PST up reply actions  

He was really good for a year in the DSL.

Then got to the US, sucked, and went back to the Dominican, where he continued to suck.

Seems like a likely suspect.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 4:05 PM PST up reply actions  

WHAT

Red Sox and Rangers Talking Lowell Deal

The Rangers and Red Sox are discussing a deal that would send Mike Lowell to Texas, according to Rob Bradford of WEEI.com. The trade is “possible, but not close,” according to Bradford’s source. It’s possible that catcher Max Ramirez would come to Boston in exchange for Lowell. Joe McDonald of the Providence Journal echoes Bradford’s report.

Lowell is set to earn $12MM next year, his last season before free agency. Theo Epstein says he doesn’t expect to make a blockbuster deal before the meetings end, but a Lowell trade probably wouldn’t be one.

How the hell can they be so smart and then do something so stupid?

by Decatur on Dec 9, 2009 3:53 PM PST reply actions  

Texas is doing

everything it possibly can to F us. If Lowell goes that means the likelihood of Beltre going to the Red Sox increases. I will literally rip my own heart out of I have to walk around Boston and see Beltre jerseys….

by TheTank123 on Dec 9, 2009 3:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Unless he bottomed out last year, Ramirez seems like a good return

for losing some/all of Lowell’s contract.

And where the hell did Texas get the extra payroll?

by tait644 on Dec 9, 2009 3:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I missed the Harden shitstorm.

Bummer.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 4:10 PM PST reply actions  

There were something like 600+ new posts in the space of, what, three hours?

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions  

I gather that.

I only meant to say I checked three hours later and bam.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Damn.

That’s way beyond even typical GTE standards.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 4:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Game thread emotion

My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!

by gregrabble on Dec 9, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Back spasms

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions  

We don't have Kenji anymore :(

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions  

I made it out alive, somehow.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 9, 2009 4:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Fuck I just want to take a nap for like 3 hours and pray something has happened when I wake up

After all that hope and excitement coming to such a crashing halt, it’s brutal just sitting here with nothing happening

My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!

by gregrabble on Dec 9, 2009 4:16 PM PST reply actions  

I'd like to expand on that.

It’s like walking into a party late, where three hours earlier, someone arrived with what they thought to be the hardest liquor available, which quickly got everyone trashed, and then about an hour later, it was discovered that said liquor was actually some kind of cleaning product, and all you can hear is distant vomiting, groaning, and the scratching of people dragging themselves back to the bathroom.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 4:28 PM PST up reply actions   5 recs

And then you go to your bedroom

And your annoying neighbour is having sex with the hot girl you had you eye on and had been flirting with for a couple of weeks.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 9, 2009 4:41 PM PST up reply actions   5 recs

Yes, that pretty much covers it.

Thank you.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 4:45 PM PST up reply actions  

You want more?

Even after yesterday and late today?

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 4:48 PM PST up reply actions  

I think that's all until next year.

Doesn’t the Winter Meetings only cover three days?

by Wilder. on Dec 9, 2009 4:48 PM PST up reply actions  

We still need to have the Rule 5* draft tomorrow morning.

*preemptive and obligatory 5 not V comment.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 4:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Something like that.

It’s not really a full day of action, but that doesn’t mean something couldn’t happen.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 4:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Well fuck.

So the 3 day and the one way fucking.

My ass hurts. Fuck these winter meetings.

FUCK THE DBACKS!

by Goose on Dec 9, 2009 4:53 PM PST up reply actions  

FFUUUUUUU-

… actually, no, I don’t expect to lose anyone important unless I’m way off on the rules. We could lose Peguero or something, but I don’t think the organization cares too much about his home runs if he strikes out all the time and can’t walk.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 4:51 PM PST up reply actions  

I was just trying to pile on the depression

We’ve protected everyone important, and I’m sure Jack will find someone interesting.

by OlSalty on Dec 9, 2009 4:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Julio Lugo! Reegie Corona!

I’m not especially enthusiastic, but something could happen.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 4:56 PM PST up reply actions  

If nothing else, I want to know where the Yankees get off trading for the top pick.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 5:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Not like last year, no.

I shouldn’t say that exactly, because while last year was hyped, there was only one guy who contributed significantly and that was Everth Cabrera. It’s basically the standard array of Latin American arms with little experience and various other hangers-on or potential breakouts.

I’d take Arquimedes Caminero, because we need another Arquimedes/z to make the big leagues, and he’s a talented arm, but I have no doubt that he’s going off the boards early.

There are a few other utlity/catcher types like Robinson Chironis and the lesser Chad Tracy, but neither are on the level of Doumit. Chironis has more versatility, which might attract Zduriencik, while Tracy offers more power. One of the other big hitting names is Colin Curtis, but he doesn’t offer anything we don’t already get with Saunders so I have no interest.

I’d take Caminero, and could see rationale for the others, but there’s no one that really excites me.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 9, 2009 5:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Wak on MLBN

My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!

by gregrabble on Dec 9, 2009 4:58 PM PST reply actions