Weekly? Rumor Open Thread II
Via Fox Sports:
Catching shortage helping Olivo — 12:36 p.m.
There is a shortage of catching.
And it is driving the market for the catchers on the open market.
Miguel Olivo has found strong interest from San Francisco, Seattle and Colorado. The Giants and Mariners have driven the price up. They are both seeking every day catchers. Colorado, meanwhile, looks at Chris Iannetta as its No. 1 catcher, but wants a strong backup in case a need arises.
The Rockies declined a $4 million option on Yorvit Torrealba, but are having renewed discussions on signing him.
Olivo became a free agent when Kansas City opted to pay the $100,000 buyout on his $3.3 million option for 2010 even though he led the Royals with 23 home runs while appearing in 114 games last year.
Kansas City is among the teams looking for a catcher, even though in addition to buying out Olivo's contract the Royals plan to non-tender catcher John Buck. The deadline for tendering contracts to players is on Saturday. -- Tracy Ringolsby
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Via ESPN Winter Meetings Live via Buster Olney
“Seattle unlikely to get involved on Jason Bay.”
The winter meetings with twitter is like the TMZ of baseball.
Poor Rob Johnson.
I can understand grabbing another catcher to allow Adam Moore to get more seasoning down in Triple-A, but we might as well displace Rob Johnson as the starter while we are at it.
Bringing back Olivo is interesting. I wonder if Doumit is no longer a viable option (Pirates know he has value and the asking price might be too high)?
I was about to post this!
But then the comments were closed..
Man, Miguel Olivo. I mean, I remember thinking he was the big hope of the M’s organization at catcher. The ITP guys even sent me up to interview him when he was rehabbing in Everett and I nearly had to chase him into the clubhouse to get a few uninteresting answers.
I can see the appeal, but I don’t know why he’d want to come back here. New front office and coaching staff and all, but it would still be… kind of weird.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
Physical today, per Baker
Announcement probably soon after.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 7, 2009 10:45 AM PST up reply actions
I'm still torn about this emotionally.
I have hated his Angel ass for so long now it will take me some time to get over it.
Fear the NPE
Official now.
Say it with me: Washington Capitals. Capitals.
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997
As what, a DH?
I don’t see how he’d fit in here.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 7, 2009 10:42 AM PST up reply actions
If he really wants to play here so much, he should give them a really really good hometown discount.
If thats the case I'm all for it.
A Burrell type of deal with the understanding that he’ll spend most of his time off the field would be a-ok by me
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 7, 2009 10:47 AM PST up reply actions
I don't think we'd give him more than 2 years
So it’s never going to happen.
If we sign Miguel Olivo I'll die laughing
I’d imagine he’s still too embarrassed to even consider coming back
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
Firesale!
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 7, 2009 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
I was wondering if Detroit might take Morrow, Kelley and Saunders for Granderson...
and if they would, would it be worth it from our end?
I don't think we should speculate on ideas with no rumor basis.
But that’s just me. Otherwise we might get into the “Do you think we should try to trade Morrow, Figgins and Lopez for Pujols?” discussions.
...and now I'm here
Saunders is basically the same type of player Granderson is going forward.
I don’t see why GMZ would do this unless he thinks this is a World Series team and needs Granderson production today rather than in the future.
Granderson is way better
Saunders is no where near a sure thing. Strikeouts…
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 7, 2009 9:28 PM PST up reply actions
Granderson is better today, but in 2-3 years Saunders will be putting up Granderson numbers.
Assuming Saunders develops as projected, which is the risk the Mariners take.
Your projections of Saunders are ridiculously, insanely optimistic.
by Aaron Campeau on Dec 7, 2009 10:12 PM PST up reply actions
I would be willing to bet Saunders is worth more going forward.
That’s more of what I was trying to get at.
I don't think I agree.
He might be slightly more of an asset because he’s cheap, but Granderson is only 28, has a skillset that ages very well and plays a premium defensive position. Saunders has promise, but he also has some pretty big flaws in his game.
Granderson is pretty routinely a 3.5-4 win player and I don’t see any good reason to think he’s going to fall off that much in the next six years or so.
by Aaron Campeau on Dec 7, 2009 10:29 PM PST up reply actions
Okay, I can agree with that.
But if you include Morrow and Kelley in the deal, I don’t think Granderson is worth all three of those players.
"Saunders has promise, but he also has some pretty big flaws in his game."
Which would be what, exactly?
by nathaniel dawson on Dec 7, 2009 11:23 PM PST up reply actions
He's strikes out 1/3 of the time.
At least while he was up in the majors. I’m sure he will adjust with more playing time.
You know who else strikes out 1/3 of the time? Bill Hall.
This doesn’t really have anything to do with what you were talking about, but whenever I hear about someone striking out 1/3 of the time, I think about goddamn Bill Hall.
by Manzanillos Cup on Dec 7, 2009 11:42 PM PST up reply actions
He's had to work his way up in the minors as well.
He has played only one full season at single minor league level (2006 in Single-A). In other words, he has had to adjust to new levels during the season over the last three years. He finally broke out in Triple-A where he proved he has the potential to develop some power.
I don’t see how you can make a judgment so easily that he won’t be a 20+ HR hitter. We are both using small sample sizes, but hitting 13 HRs in 282 PA (16 HRs in 387 PA in total at the Triple-A level) is a better sample than the seasons he had to split time between different leagues.
Power is the last tool to develop.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 8, 2009 7:08 AM PST up reply actions
20 HRs isn't completely out of the question
The rest probably is.
No I agree
20 HR is pretty possible but at this point its not a sure thing. He has the talent to do it though.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 8, 2009 9:18 AM PST up reply actions
I agree with everything about Granderson being a better player.
But he does strike out a ton. And in his first 100 AB was very close to striking out 1/3rd of the time.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 8, 2009 8:59 AM PST up reply actions
That's true, they are the same type of player...
but I don’t think that means you can assume Saunders is going to produce at the same level as Granderson. If Saunders turns into a 2-3 win player it would be nifty, but Granders is probably a 3-5 win player for the next few years, and he wouldn’t cost that much.
Miguel Olivo makes Jose Lopez look like Nick Johnson.
I can’t believe the new FO would really want him.
by I Lick Squirrels on Dec 7, 2009 11:14 AM PST reply actions
I doubt they're going to want to spend money on a meh catcher
given their pitching and 1b/dh needs. Especially given the kind of hitter Olivo is.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 7, 2009 11:20 AM PST up reply actions
MLB has a free live broadcast from the meeting
Sadly, not the MLB show that Larry Stone was just one, I gather.
Well, according to ESPN's winter meeting coverage, Jack Z does not seem very interested in Jason Bay
GordonEdes:
Seattle GM Jack Zduriencik said he spoke briefly with Urbon on Sunday, said it’s “up to Joe” when they meet again.
This tends to be Jack's modus operandi.
Make an offer, let it stand, wait for someone else to cave, negotiate from there.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 7, 2009 11:43 AM PST up reply actions
Way better then Bavasi Outbiding himself
abender20 hates freedom.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 7, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
This seems to be the place for winter meeting discussions
Shannon spoke with GMZ about Triunfel today. Still speculating where he’ll wind up playing, but the team apparently wants him to work at third, short, and second this season.
Also if you thought he looked a lot bigger during the AFL you were right. He was all the way up to 220 lbs at one point before dropping down to 197.
Holy crap 220? That's at least 40-45 lbs over what he was in High Desert
by seattlebruin on Dec 7, 2009 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
He is restricted to 2700 calories per day!
what does that do to his prospect status? A top ten prospect needs 3500 at minimum.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 7, 2009 11:58 AM PST up reply actions
Fuck that
Catcher.
abender20 hates freedom.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 7, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
TWITTER IS DOWN!!!
OMG Where will we get news! Something could be happening right now!
I know you're kidding
but you should probably tune into the Brock and Salk show right now. Salk is live at the meetings.
Oh wow thanks
Completely forget about the live stream… Good call sir.
And something did happen during the down time!
Even though it’s sort of unrelated to the M’s, sounds like the Mets snagged Jackson
Really?
I can’t wait to see that move blow up.
Ed Price is reporting...
That he heard it in the lobby, nothing comfirmed yet. Probably heard “Man, Michael Jackson was the best.” and thought they said “Edwin Jackson going to the Mets.”
by dkulich on Dec 7, 2009 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah 'Mets snagged Jackson' is a little strong
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 7, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
Mets now denying the rumor...
and I did say “sounds like”, so it wasn’t that strong.
Timeline:
- Mariners fans, hungry for Winter Meetings news, bring down USSMariner several years in a row with their repeated page refreshes.
- Dave Cameron, recognizing this issue, reroutes Mariners fans to Twitter, where individual reporters are now reporting what they hear as it comes, in an effort to lighten the load on the USSM servers.
- Mariners fans bring down Twitter.
This is probably not the case, but it amuses me.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 7, 2009 12:13 PM PST up reply actions
I wouldn't be surprised...
That was my first thought when I saw that Twitter was undergoing ‘scheduled maintenance’.
Karma police, arrest this man.
by wyte_lightning on Dec 7, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
I'd guess it correlates with Iran's Student Day more than Mariners fans
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 7, 2009 12:20 PM PST up reply actions
Fine, fine....
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 7, 2009 12:24 PM PST up reply actions
From Stone:
“Angels have jumped in Jason Bay race; possible Edwin Jackson deal coming down (AOL speculates Mets)”
but Torii Hunter's reputation
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
Also, you don't need to be a good outfield defender according to this documentary I saw on the Angels.

angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Dec 7, 2009 12:56 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 9 recs
Matthew McConaughey played for the Angels?
2009 Safeco Field Record: 6-0 ; Overall Safeco Field Record: 10-4
Muahaha oh fiddlesticks that would be sooooo bad if the Angels "stole" Bay from us
Pleeeeease don’t do it.
I'd be shocked if they got Bay,
They said they were well out of the race for Holliday, and the two should have similar price tags.
DIfferent Agents
Arte Moreno and Boras are not friends.
Aybar is a nowhere man, Sitting in his Nowhere Land, Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.
by princeton11loveshalos on Dec 8, 2009 2:48 AM PST up reply actions
Keep hearing this and it's extremely silly
You can’t build a baseball club if you outright refuse to deal with probably the biggest agent in the sports world. It’s completely overblown.
The reason this won’t happen is the Angels don’t have enough money (for either of them) unless the market comes down a lot. They’ve stated that they only have around 12mil to spend, so unless something has changed and they’ve been freed up more money…yeah.
I have a hard time believing that the Angels are seriously persuing Bay
especially at the 15mil+ price tag that he wants.
Karma police, arrest this man.
by wyte_lightning on Dec 7, 2009 12:20 PM PST up reply actions
I highly doubt he gets $15 per year.
I doubt he gets much more than 3/$40 or 4/$50…
by BrettJMiller on Dec 7, 2009 12:25 PM PST up reply actions
Larry Stone, on Twitter, quoting AOL as a source.
Brain. Broke.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 7, 2009 12:31 PM PST up reply actions
On another note
You just showed up on my twitter feed. Did you do what I think you did?
abender20 hates freedom.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 7, 2009 1:01 PM PST up reply actions
You signed up for Twitter though.
abender20 hates freedom.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 7, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
The world has ended.
abender20 hates freedom.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 7, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
I've had a Twitter account since July.
I just never use it.
Question is - do I use mine for wacky antics?
abender20 hates freedom.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 7, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions
Well now it is.
abender20 hates freedom.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 7, 2009 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
Iron Man reference?
abender20 hates freedom.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 7, 2009 1:02 PM PST up reply actions
Ghostface
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 7, 2009 1:03 PM PST up reply actions
Churchill:
UPDATE 12:55 PM: Latest word from Indy is that the Mariners are in on Mark De Rosa, Orlando Hudson, and have made contact with the Nationals about Josh Willingham.
Kicking the shit out of them tires.
abender20 hates freedom.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 7, 2009 1:15 PM PST up reply actions
DeRosa makes zero sense.
abender20 hates freedom.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 7, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
Jose Lopez is just as good as Mark DeRosa
by Manzanillos Cup on Dec 7, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions
And now that I look at it, Orlando Hudson is not really that much better either.
I was so sure I wanted to get rid of Lopey when the offseason started, now… not so sure. Another 2.5 WAR next year would be dandy.
by Manzanillos Cup on Dec 7, 2009 1:30 PM PST up reply actions
Eh.
With DeRosa turning 35 and Lopez entering his peak, I don’t see how their 2010 projected values would be that far apart. DeRosa is way more versatile, so there’s that.
by Manzanillos Cup on Dec 7, 2009 2:03 PM PST up reply actions
While Lopez is younger, much cheaper, and better at defense (at 2b).
by Manzanillos Cup on Dec 7, 2009 2:24 PM PST up reply actions
In 2010 I would bank on DeRosa being better than Lopez assuming he is healthy
Honest objective opinion
Is it worth it to give Mark DeRosa a multi-year deal to be marginally better than Lopez
when the difference is probably less than half a win, if that?
Can I take the other side of that bet?
According to FanGraphs, DeRosa has averaged around -7.0 UZR/150 for his career at 2B and 3B. The fan projection has him at 7.3 Runs Above Average and Bill James has him at -0.2
Lopez has a career UZR/150 of 0.6. James projects him at -1.5 RAA and the fans at -2.6.
So Lopez is about 7.5 runs better defensively. DeRosa is projected between 1.3 (James) and 9.9 (fans) runs better offensively.
Based on the historical data and projections, the chance that DeRosa is better in 2010 is probably less than 40%.
There isn't enough data to go on to be sure that DeRosa is truly a -7 defender
He certainly doesn’t look like a bad defender to the naked eye.
I would also counter by saying Lopez has been worth 5 wins over the last three seasons, while DeRosa had been worth 8. Plus, while his .311 OBP last year looks like it could be an outlier, it was still 8 point better than Lopez’s, and lopez had a career year.
CHONE projects Lopez to be a better hitter next year.
The thing is, if you know 100% that DeRosa is going to be healthy, yeah, he’ll most likely be better than Lopez. But when you take into account his age, and it’s health and decline implications, he and Lopez are about even.
by Manzanillos Cup on Dec 7, 2009 4:46 PM PST up reply actions
And also cost
Loafie costs you $2.5M in 2009 – DeRosa might cost you $15M over two years
Agreed
Don’t be a such a hater. Lopez has his issues but overall he’s pretty good value at his position and actually has some upside in him still.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 7, 2009 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
I never was under the impression that you thought otherwise.
We were comparing the two with salaries set aside.
Having said all of this, if signing Hudson or DeRosa to a reasonable deal meant that we had traded Lopez (and others) for a shiny SP, then yes please.
by Manzanillos Cup on Dec 7, 2009 5:24 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think you can sign DeRosa to a reasonable deal
and in Safeco I would bet that Hudson is better anyway. The trick is to deal Lopez before you sign Hudson.
I am glad he is warming up to his new teammates.
2009 Safeco Field Record: 6-0 ; Overall Safeco Field Record: 10-4
by Fin on Dec 7, 2009 6:38 PM PST up reply actions
523 Defenisve Games at 2B/3B
Which are about the same difficulty defensively and he put up similar numbers. I’d say that’s a large enough sample size to get a feel for his general ability.
Really?
I don’t have a strong opinion on the matter but intuition and some vaguely remembered research into the subject suggests otherwise.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 6:51 AM PST up reply actions
Probably not by a lot
But the two require different skillsets and there are fewer players with the skillset to play 2B and also hit decently.
I guess I phrased that incorrectly
They’re both similarly hard defensive positions but you can’t just take any 3B and stick him at 2B and expect him to perform the same just because the positional adjustment is the same. The defensive adjustments might be the same but the offensive adjustments are very different because, just for example, 2B requires more mobility than 3B and that’s not conducive to power hitters.
It seems like virtually every free agent is tied to the Mariners.
I think it just because they have money to spend and Jack Z has probably talked to all of their agents. Easy tweet or addition to the rumor mill.
Yup
Mets looking at Molina for more catching help — 3:23 p.m.
The Mets have already signed free agent catcher Chris Coste, and they may not be done yet.
New York is stepping up its pursuit of free-agent Bengie Molina, who reportedly is seeking a multi-year deal that would average around $7 million annually. The Giants and Seattle have expressed interest, but both teams are reluctant to guarantee more than one year. — Tracy Ringolsby
I'm just gonna keep watching Stone
“Mutual interest between Mariners and Nick Johnson as Russ Branyan alternative. His uncle, Larry Bowa, had a great experience in Seattle.”
I want Nick Johnson so bad it hurts.
I will smash your face into a jelly.
by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 7, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions
Nick apparently has a little, highly animated mom
whom he does not resemble.
by msb on Dec 7, 2009 1:50 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe this is old news
but Brad Penny is signing with St Louis for 1/5 guaranteed, up to 9 million if he does well. Good deal for the Cards, and hopefully an indication of what it’ll take to get Harden.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 7, 2009 1:49 PM PST reply actions
My bad. I was going off a Roto summary
but the actual article has them either still talking or abut to get a physical. Nevertheless, I like the numbers.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 7, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
I've been listening to the free MLB feed on their site
apparently their main fanbase (judging from the calls) is the 14 year old male.
RT @StoneLarry
Jack Zduriencik and Felix’s agent, Alan Nero, met today. Nero: “It was a healthy meeting. We all know where we stand.” More coming on blog.
Also, I am such a tech-wizard for this.
So they ate the salad with low fat dressing.
by Kermit. on Dec 7, 2009 2:30 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Lousy joke, but following the tweets is driving me up the fricking wall.
I’m going to have to save my sanity and unplug, the tweets are a bit manic.
Larry Stone tweets
@Larry Stone: Jack Zduriencik and Felix’s agent, Alan Nero, met today. Nero: “It was a healthy meeting. We all know where we stand.”
yup.
“We want a lot of money & years, they are thinking about it”
Don Wakamatsu gets it.
“Probably some of the things we’ve talked about all year, and that’s just trying to get a grasp on understanding how to get on base, flat out. I think our on base percentage struggled, but I think with that, there’s got to be a methodology, too. There’s got to be a plan and an individual one because I think everybody is a little bit different. But I think we set the focus and we’ll continue to do that.
Geoff Baker's going to be on Baseball Tonight in five minutes for those of you interested.
A Mariners fan in Seattle
No wait!!!
@gbakermariners: Baseball Tonight canceled my segment, citing “too much news”. Wonder where it’s at?
by msb on Dec 7, 2009 2:56 PM PST up reply actions
I love reading the interactions across Twitter, sometimes it's more interesting than the actual 'news'.
by EnglishMariner on Dec 7, 2009 3:02 PM PST up reply actions
It is more interesting than the actual news.
News is better with analysis. You don’t get much analysis with Twitter.
I hate the winter meetings.
FUCK THE DBACKS!
by Goose on Dec 8, 2009 6:01 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
Penny to St Louis rumor seems to be solidifying.
Olney reporting 7.5 million base salary. Sweet deal for em.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 7, 2009 4:42 PM PST reply actions
There seem to be a lot of 2 win pitchers out there
Available for trade or in free agency, but not much better than that. You have to wonder where the Mariners are going to pick up a top of the rotation starter to plug in behind Felix as they already have a bunch of 2 win pitchers. As far as I can see the only realistic choices in free agency are Harden and Sheets; both of which are risky as well.
Anyone have an idea of who we might be able to target in the trade market to come in as a 3-4 win pitcher?
I hope that we aren't pursuing Randy Wolf, like Heyman believes.
He had a good year this season but with how much he’s asking for and the fact that he wants a multi-year deal makes me think that he’s going to be the next Washburn or what have you.
A Mariners fan in Seattle
In the Statcorner era Washburn hasn't come close to anything like the season Wolf had last year
Also, being left handed is a recipe for success in Safeco
I still wouldn't pay $30M+ and 3 years+ for a 33 year old who had a career year.
According to StatCorner, Wolf’s been extremely inconsistant, posting WAR’s of 2.0, 1.4, 0, 0.1, 1.7 -0.1 0.3, 1.4 and 4.0 since 2003. I would not be surprised at all if he dipped down to the .5<x<1.5 WAR range for the next few years.
A Mariners fan in Seattle
I don't think the drop off would be that steep unless he was injured
Keep in mind that the Mariners are “in” on just about everyone. They are probably simply finding his asking price.
I think you need to look at those numbers again.
You included short stint minor league rehab assignments and split seasons via trade. His actual StatCorner WAR:
2003: 2.0
2004: 1.4 (injured)
2005: 0.0 (injured)
2006: 0.1 (injured)
2007: 1.7 (injured)
2008: 1.7
2009: 4.0
...and now I'm here
Still though, giving a pitcher who has been hurt four of the last six year (albeit neither of the last two)
a multi-year deal sounds like a recipe for disaster
I think it is an awful idea
but more for injury reasons than skill reasons. I think it’d be safe to say he’s a 2+ win pitcher with upside, but 3 years for a guy injured the majority of his career is an awful idea.
...and now I'm here
I might be okay with a 2/20 and a vesting option though.
...and now I'm here
Though 2/16 would be a more accurate reflection of the market.
Since you can sign a higher reward.higher risk pitcher for like 1/7 or 1/8 this year.
...and now I'm here
2/16 would be fine with me
plus gives another lefty for the rotation
We'd benefit more than anyone. that's for sure.
...and now I'm here
What's wrong with a vesting option for a pitcher?
I think it is better than one for a hitter.
...and now I'm here
What are you going to base the vesting option from?
Wins? Nope.
ERA? Nope.
Strikeouts? Not by itself.
You could try something advanced like FIP or tRA, but good luck having a player and his agent agree to that.
IP is probably to only probably vesting stat, but that is based on staying healthy, not so much performance.
Although players and their agents would want you to believe things like IP and ERA are gauges of performance.
Good ones at least.
I meant, I don't think that vesting options based on performance are allowed.
Only like PA, Games, IP… Like that.
I just don't see GMZ agreeing to something like this.
Not with the way he has been evaluating players. It’s an archaic way of thinking.
And let me just clarify that I am against vesting options in general, even when it comes to Figgins.
There is no incentive for a player to perform except for that contract year.
All baseball contracts are guaranteed...
The only incentives players ever have for performing is their next contract or self-fulfillment (or MLBPA stabbing their children).
I wrote this the other day that I don't think many people say (nobody responded, it was in an older post that got buried).
This is how you can include incentives beyond the final year of the contract.
Here’s my idea: front load contracts.
Let me take Figgins’ contract as an example. 4-year, $36 million with an performance option for a potential worth 5-year, $45 million. That’s $9 million a year on average. Figgins has no incentive to perform except during that 4th season. He is already guaranteed $36 million.
1. Remove the 5th year performance option.
2. Front load the payments at 12/10/8/5
3. Place performance bonuses in the 3rd and 4th season (I won’t speculate what those would be, although a wOBA-based incentive would be neat).
4. Have those bonuses max out at $3 million each year ($6 in total).
5. Add a team option for a 5th year, $6 million.
The total amount of this contract could be worth $48 million. I know it is more than the $45 million, but that 5th year can be refused by the Mariners and the contract max out at $42 million. Either way, Figgins is still guaranteed his $36 million with two incentive-laden years instead of one.
At first you would think this contract is bad for the player and good for the team. However, it is great for both sides. Figgins’ real life contract already has a performance option in the 4th year. But he needs to reach those levels to guarantee a 5th year and another $9 million. The Mariners, declining age, and injuries can all keep Figgins from earning the performance option. With the contract that I have proposed, Figgins can earn up to $6 million of that $9 million without a 5th season (real incentives!). The Mariners, meanwhile, are already paying less in those last two years because the contract was front loaded. The potential extra $3 million each season isn’t likely to kill the budget and they will have a great player worth the money if he does reach those levels.
Even if Figgins doesn’t reach the $3 million in the 3rd year, he can earn the $3 million in the 4th year and the Mariners would be more likely to pick up the cheap option 5th year for $6 to keep the total at $45 million, 5 years. I just don’t see why this kind of thinking doesn’t happen more often. If it does, why would either the team or the player reject something like this?
Any thoughts?
Guaranteed money is what all players want.
That’s why only desperately injury prone players take incentive-laden contracts.
But he is guaranteed the same amount of money in my proposal.
This just builds in extra incentives while also reducing risk for the team if Figgins were to decline in performance.
Oh my.
You’re wrong, completely wrong.
From the Mariners prospective, time value of money means nothing because the budget changes from year to year. Money you save this year has no effect on the budget next year. (The owners might have a problem with it, though, because they are the ones who benefit from money saved today as it goes into their pocket.)
From a player’s prospective, time value of money means everything because their buying power is greater today than it is tomorrow. It is better to get as much money now than in the future. Figgins would be better off getting $36 million upfront in the first year and not be paid over the last three years.
I agree completely, which I stated myself in the Felix FanShot
But this:
Money you save this year has no effect on the budget next year.
That’s a little bit of an overstatement. I would rephrase to say that we don’t know what budget we have to work with, but we know what budget we have now, and if we can afford to put it all up front now, we’ll have considerably more flexibility later, when things are less certain.
...and now I'm here
It's not an overstatement.
Saving $1 million this season does not add $1 million to next year’s budget, plain and simple. Dave Cameron, and I think J/M/G, have gone over this before.
But I concur with your overall viewpoint.
But it can.
For example, if the Mariners had a 94 million dollar budget, and only spend 72 mil of it, they have some financial flexibility to add to the 2011 budget if they want to. Will they? Maybe not. But they can. They can even plan for it if they like and do it strategically, such as not spending 10 million so that they can go after something they expect to occur in 2011.
I don’t think I could say with that type of certainty that previous year budgets are irrelevant.
...and now I'm here
The $22 million the Mariners save this year goes to owner(s).
It is up to the owner(s) to decide if they want to reinvest that $22 million in future years. Other than that, the budget is based on projected revenues.
That is as simple as I can explain it.
Uh....
That is as simple as I can explain it.
Yeah, thanks. This isn’t rocket science, homey. It’s not hard to understand. But:
It is up to the owner(s) to decide if they want to reinvest that $22 million in future years
Is exactly what I said here:
If the Mariners had a 94 million dollar budget, and only spend 72 mil of it, they have some financial flexibility to add to the 2011 budget if they want to. Will they? Maybe not. But they can.
...and now I'm here
But the Mariners DON'T have greater financial flexibility by saving the $22 million this year.
The owner can decide to invest an extra $22 million next year, but he likely won’t. He wants the operating revenues to cover the budget. If the operating revenues do not cover the budget, that means the owner has to reinvest in a losing business. That extra $22 million does not inherently give the Mariners greater financial flexibility.
.
If the operating revenues do not cover the budget, that means the owner has to reinvest in a losing business. That extra $22 million does not inherently give the Mariners greater financial flexibility.
Well no kidding, but this has nothing to do with my argument. In fact, that’s kind of a random statement that is always true regardless. That’s like saying this year’s budget doesn’t affect next year’s budget because there might be a terrorist attack on SafeCo. But this:
but he likely won’t.
is my point. Likely is not a “no.” If the Mariners saved 22 million by accident, I bet the owner would keep it all. But if they were given budget X, and decided on purpose to only use Y/X for some specific reason (ie, to have a greater budget the next year) I can see that being easily possible, and cannot call this year’s budget irrelevant. If that’s the reason they were doing it, which is what everyone has been saying, I think it can be safely assumed the ownership is on board with it, and wouldn’t simply pocket the money.
...and now I'm here
The likelihood of the owner reinvesting $22 million in a losing business is 0.001%.
So it might as well be a no. The owner would want to see budget cuts before reinvesting.
Why is it a losing business exactly?
...and now I'm here
It would have to be a losing business for the owner to reinvest the $22 million he saved this year.
Until that point comes, the operating revenues will take care of the budget.
I don't think that's how it works.
If operating revenues are estimated to be 93 million, and that is the budget that the owners gave the GM, and the GM asked to save 22 million so that he can spend it in 2011, and the Mariners bring in exactly 93 million in revenue, as expected, then they were not a losing business and can opt to spend an additional 22 million should they choose to. I don’t see what assumes they’d be a losing business for this to be possible.
...and now I'm here
I don't think we have ever seen this happen nor do I think it will ever happen.
If you save $22 million of the $93 million this year, that means your payroll is $71 million. Your payroll doesn’t magically jump to $93 million next year unless you have heavily back loaded contracts or you trade for expensive players.
In theory your scenario can happen, but I just don’t ever see it happening. You would have a clusterfuck of budgeting issues going forward. Do you take that $22 million next and spend it all for that one season? Do you spread it out over 3-4 years? Who are you planning on signing/trading for with that extra $22 million when they may not be available? How expensive are the heavily back loaded contracts going to get? When do those contracts expire?
It would take some intrinsic planning to pull off your scenario while keeping the team competitive and the budget flexible.
Oh, absolutely.
I don’t think it will happen. But I don’t think an extremely heavily frontloaded or backloaded contract will happen either – such that a player would make 32/0/0/0 or 0/0/0/32.
But because it doesn’t really happen doesn’t mean it can’t. Right now, even the most competent of GM’s aren’t getting creative with the way they allocate contracts for their own ultimate value. I think if/when they start doing that, we will also see things like saving money for budget flexibility, etc. I think the two go hand in hand.
...and now I'm here
Thanks for the discussion.
It’s nice to think about what I actually learned in obtaining my finance degree since I don’t have a job yet. Even more fun trying to apply it to the business of baseball. By the time I do get a job in the finance industry, I probably won’t remember a thing.
More impressive would be if you found a way to apply analysis you made on Lookout Landing into your work.
Employer: “That’s brilliant Wilder, how did you come up with that idea?”
You: “Funny you should ask! How much do you like baseball?”
Employer: “Not at all.”
You: “Ah, then I wrote a thesis paper on it in college.”
...and now I'm here
Owners invest money in losing businesses all the time.
Sometimes it’s the only way to right the ship.
by Aaron Campeau on Dec 7, 2009 10:22 PM PST up reply actions
Time value of money does mean something.
The Seattle Mariners are a business. Sure the payroll changes year-to-year but players’ salaries are only part of the picture. I’m not saying it doesn’t make sense from a baseball sense, but it doesn’t make sense from the business side.
IP
You can’t do Wins or ERA or any of those. But it is a vesting option for an injury prone pitcher. Ergo:
1) If they are injured, they can’t rack up the IP.
2) If they are not injured, they are very valuable, since injury is their only risk.
3) If they suck dick for some reason,you put them in the bullpen, where they can’t rack up IP.
Vesting options are perfect for high performance, injury prone pitchers. It’s harder with hitters, where you have to bench them every game even though they think they can come up there and hack it. With pitchers, they sit for 5 days anyway, and all you need to do is skip a few starts. And in the case of almost all pitchers, the risk is injury, not performance. So if they don’t get injured, most likely they will do quite well, in which case having them back one more year is a good thing.
...and now I'm here
Well, I don't either.
but I also don’t like gauranteed contracts. And if the only way he’s going to sign is with a 3 year deal, vesting options based on IP for good pitchers that are injury prone doesn’t seem like that big a deal. Imagine signing Harden to a 5 year deal worth 10 mil a year, but each year was a vesting option. If he’s healthy, he’s worth way more than that. If he’s not, we don’t have to pay him. Similar logic goes in vesting options for any injury prone above average pitcher. It’s so much easier to bench a pitcher than it is a hitter.
...and now I'm here
Not to mention that if he's sucking, he won't get the IP anyway, because another pitcher will have to come in and replace him.
Now that I think about it, I can’t really see any problem with vesting options for pitchers, provided they are at least somewhat team friendly (ie, vests at like 150 IP instead of something low like 80 IP). I don’t like them because I don’t like guaranteed contracts, but for pitchers, especially, any pitcher that blows isn’t going to reach that vesting option, and if they do well, they help our team and we probably want them for one more year.
...and now I'm here
CBA prevents this
I think IP is the only stat you can use
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 7, 2009 8:59 PM PST up reply actions
NO NO NO NO NO ABORT ABORT CEASE AND DESIST!
Nick Piecoro of the Arizona Republic has heard that the Diamondbacks may be willing to part with Max Scherzer for Tigers right-hander Edwin Jackson.
"you don’t drive in runs with base on balls."
~gitanoloco
That doesn't even make sense.
Why would anyone even kick the tires on him. He’s type A. That’s not even the kind of deal where you would bother talking to his agents about price.
...and now I'm here
He's Type A but wasn't offered arbitration
Still, way too pricey for a bullpen/spot starter guy. Here’s hoping it just drives the price up for the Angels.
FUCK THE ANGELS!
by Fuckmikereilly on Dec 7, 2009 7:27 PM PST up reply actions
Ah, I assumed he was offered arb.
Then sure, kick away. But walk away afterward.
...and now I'm here
from Larue:
“Somehow, the impression at these winter meetings is that the Seattle Mariners have almost unlimited cash available, which has resulted in their being linked to almost every interesting free agent out there.
“Who are we signing now?” asked Pedro Grifol, Seattle’s minor league director.
He was kidding."
From twitter
d_a_cameron Harden, Johnson, and Doumit all tied to M’s today. RT @StoneLarry: Rich Harden is looking increasingly like a good fit for the Mariners.
The more I think about the team the Mariners are trying to build, the more Doumit stands out as an important part. Even if we get the players we want (Branyan, Johnson) we’d still be in danger of having a lineup where be vulnerable to by any random lefty. Having a switch hitter like Doumit who has the defensive flexibility that he does gives us a “middle of the order” option verses lefties and is a pretty nifty option at catcher to boot.
I think the cost of Doumit is gonna be pretty high
Do you really want to pay that price? How much would you really give up?
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 7, 2009 9:03 PM PST up reply actions
Why would you think that?
He’s an oft injured player (Has only had 400 PA once I believe), and the Pirates are trying to cut costs and rebuild. Plus, he’s kind of a lousy defensive catcher, he’s much closer to being Jim Leyritz than he is Victor Martinez.
I agree completely
Just wondering what it would cost us to get Doumit. The problem is even though his defense might be kinda bad, he’s a good hitter which means his value is inflated on the market and the club who trades for him has control of him for 4 years (2012/2013 club options) at not outrageous sums of money.
Seems like we’re not the only team that’s going to want him.
Lucky for us we've worked with Pittsburgh before and Doumit sucked shit last year
Unlucky for us is Pittsburgh is a lot better at this than they used to be
He is cheap and very good when not injured.
The pirates aren’t stupid. We can’t just take one of their better players for nothing. I feel like Dourmit for Saunders wouldn’t be an insane price.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 7, 2009 9:16 PM PST up reply actions
They aren't stupid anymore, at least.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 7, 2009 9:31 PM PST up reply actions
It would be an insane price
6 years of Saunders for two years of Doumit. And Doumit probably isn’t an everyday player.
A player like a Doumit is worth a lot more to a team trying to break 90 wins than it is to a team trying to break 70. Sure he won’t be free but it’s not like the Pirates are dying to pay several million dollars to a utility player.
He's an everyday player in terms of skills.
I thought “everyday player” was a term that denoted regulars from backups.
He has averaged 2.4 WAR over the past 3 years
He is going to be cheap for the next two years. His upside is pretty high (4 WAR) if he can stay healthy.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 7, 2009 9:53 PM PST up reply actions
Perhaps, but that figure doesn't include defense
and he’d have to stay healthy and be on top of his game.
Not quite
I will concede that the 2.4 WAR does not include defense but most efforts to quantify catcher defense have shown it to be make a fairly small difference for most players. Taking into account the relatively low amount of playing, if he was a complete butcher he has still averaged 2 WAR.
He can top 2 WAR by just staying moderately healthy. Its not like he had a bad back and 15 knee surgeries. He has just had several unrelated injuries. He isn’t in the bargain bin yet.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 7, 2009 10:58 PM PST up reply actions
He's not known as a good defensive player
Either at catcher or at any other position. I find it difficult that the Mariners would be too interested in him. We’ve got several players now that can fill in at multiple positions and provide decent defense. Other than being an emergency-type catcher, I’m not sure how he would fit in.
by nathaniel dawson on Dec 7, 2009 11:33 PM PST up reply actions
That's not saying much.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
Well, the fifth best bat on the team and a guy who can fill in at multiple positions.
If he was Moore’s backup, he could see something like 30% of games behind the plate, 15% of games at 1B, 15% of games at DH, 10% of games in LF, and sit 30% of games. That would give him ample rest, hopefully keeping him off the DL, and give us a solid bat in a good portion of our games that we otherwise wouldn’t have.
Well I mean that's kind of a stupid relativistic argument
But Doumit hits well, is the point.
Except that hints have been dropped on more than one occasion that they are interested in him
And, as I stated it’s clear that he could fit in at LF/1B/DH because he can switch hit and we would have two (presumably) left handed options, and at C because he hits well for a catcher. I also don’t see how you could peg him as an emergency catcher only.
Just my take
on what the Mariners value at the catcher position. If they didn’t like Jeff Clement behind the plate, I’m not sure they’d want Doumit back there. Perhaps there have been hints that they like him, I haven’t read any of them myself. He’s a good hitter, but not great. Other than that, he doesn’t seem to offer much.
by nathaniel dawson on Dec 7, 2009 11:52 PM PST up reply actions
Clement couldn't physically catch
“He’s a good hitter but not great”
Bad Catcher Defense is still a net positive as far as defensive adjustments go because so few people can play catcher. As long as you can get behind the dish without murdering your team you are having a positive impact if you are just merely a good hitter.
And admittedly,
I don’t know that much about Ryan Doumit. My impression is that he’s not all that good behind the plate. But I never watch the Pirates, it’s an impresion I’ve formed from the very little I’ve heard about him, and we don’t have much to go on in evaluating catcher defense. If he’s better than what I imagine him being, I absolutely could see the interest in him. Even so, I’m not sure how he’d fit into the Mariners plans unless they were going to trade Rob Johnson. Bringing in Doumit keeps Adam Moore in AAA, and I’m not sure what purpose that would serve.
by nathaniel dawson on Dec 8, 2009 1:01 AM PST up reply actions
The whole idea behind Doumit is, unless he really busts out, he can cover 1B/LF/C
ergo because he’d need some days off and would be starting at other positions there would be PT for MOore. Plus we don’t know if Moore is all that good any way and it would be nice to have a plan B
Are both Moore and Johnson on the roster?
If they are, how does Doumit fit in? Is he the starting 1B or DH?
It seems to me the only way to fit him in would be to keep Moore in AAA or trade Johnson (I could only hope).
by nathaniel dawson on Dec 8, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions
If there is a way to get Doumit here Johnson won't block him.
That’s just not an issue.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
Johnson is terrible
Highly doubtful that sending him down to AAA is a concern
I don't think this a subject that can even be conjectured upon, really
Where is the line drawn between catchers who are bad at defense and catchers who can’t play the position at a major league level? We don’t have good measurements for defining catcher defense at all, so it’s mostly based on conjecture based on visual scouting evidence. Which, while better than nothing at all, we know is a somewhat flawed measure of ability….And while that does have some merit we don’t know just exactly how bad each of these players are.
Rob Johnson likely sucks at his job, and maybe Doumit does too, but Doumit we can prove is a far, far superior hitter to Johnson.
Not to mention that, from what we saw last season, catcher defense seems to be this organization’s blind spot (well it’s everyone’s blind spot really because there are no reliable measures) so is that really going to affect their own valuation of Doumit this offseason?
I dunno, I’m just guessing what they might think based on what they’ve done so far, we’ve only had a year to judge what they do and it might not be totally accurate.
The mariners can be interested in players who aren't good at defense
They are interested in good players that provide good value. I wouldn’t use this argument because it just leads to the 2009 Mariners offense.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 8, 2009 9:24 AM PST up reply actions
Randy Wolf---->Brewers? Ed Price twitter
Hearing #Brewers closing in on three-year deal with LHP Randy Wolf. Trying to confirm.
"you don’t drive in runs with base on balls."
~gitanoloco
Granderson to the Yankees?
Sources: Yanks have discussed big trade — 10:46 p.m.
This would be a blockbuster.
The Yankees, Diamondbacks and Tigers have discussed a three-way trade that would send Tigers center fielder Curtis Granderson to New York and right-hander Edwin Jackson to Arizona, major-league sources say.
The other players in the trade are not known, and the talks are at an impasse, according to one source. The proposed deal is being pushed by the D-Backs, but was rejected by at least one of the other two teams, the source says. — Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi
I have a feeling that if this were to happen that I am not going to be very happy with the outcome.
"you don’t drive in runs with base on balls."
~gitanoloco
Gross
The Yankees would receive Granderson from the Tigers and one or two prospects from the Diamondbacks.
• The Diamondbacks would get Jackson from the Tigers and right-hander Ian Kennedy from the Yankees.
• The Tigers would get right-hander Max Scherzer from the Diamondbacks, and center fielder Austin Jackson and left-handed relievers Phil Coke and Michael Dunn from the Yankees.
"you don’t drive in runs with base on balls."
~gitanoloco
Nah
Yanks have been extremely possessive of Jackson and dont have the depth to deal away Kennedy just like that.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 7, 2009 8:42 PM PST up reply actions
That's beyond hideous.
Why do I feel like the Tigers make out like bandits in this deal? I don’t even LIKE Austin Jackson and Phil Coke, but Scherzer alone makes this stupid. Then they unload two contracts they don’t want.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Dec 7, 2009 9:05 PM PST up reply actions
Hmm
“From Buster: The Diamondbacks are negotiating with the idea that they are going to get both Edwin Jackson and Ian Kennedy. There is growing confidence on at least two sides on the three-team deal that this has a good chance to get done. One source who had placed the odds at 20 percent at 9 a.m. ET texted at 11 a.m. that the odds were up to 30 percent. "
by msb on Dec 8, 2009 9:28 AM PST up reply actions
Grain o' salt Heyman:
latest 3-way looks something like this: yanks get granderson; dbacks e-jax, i.kennedy; tigers scherzer, schlereth, a-jax, coke.
by msb on Dec 8, 2009 9:33 AM PST up reply actions
Discussing this with a Tigers reporter
on MLB right now
by msb on Dec 8, 2009 9:20 AM PST up reply actions
Good for him, I guess.
That was pretty high up on the list of idiot moves made in the past few years. Trading away a pitcher for having a bad showing when he was sick. Awful.
I rather liked Soriano when he was still pitching for us and wish him well.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 7, 2009 8:52 PM PST up reply actions
WHAT.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 7, 2009 9:19 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Raffy Soriano accepts arbitration.
The Braves just spent $10M on Wagner and Saito, so they gotta be a little ticked at this. Unless they trade him I guess.
"you don’t drive in runs with base on balls."
~gitanoloco
It's a slightly above market value contract, but it's not like he's untradable... it's not that bad.
Well on the bright side, Wagner-Saito-Soriano is a pretty awesome bullpen.
"you don’t drive in runs with base on balls."
~gitanoloco
He'll setup for sure
Saito isn’t that great anymore.
That’s a fuck of a lot of money to spend on a bullpen. Didn’t the Braves used to be smart?
Tim Brown is saying Pudge to Nats on 2 year deal
Makes no sense for anyone involved, I’ll be shocked if it turns out to be true.
Heyman confirms
done pending the physical.
Karma police, arrest this man.
by wyte_lightning on Dec 7, 2009 9:34 PM PST up reply actions
Why the hell would Pudge want to play for the Nationals at this point in his career
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
Because that's where baseball goes to die.
...and now I'm here
It's more money than the Long Island Ducks offer?
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
I can't wait until he receives his very own Pudge Rdriguez jersey
and regrets his decision for 729 more days.
...and now I'm here
by CapSea on Dec 7, 2009 9:46 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
???
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=punum
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
I mean, these mostly sound goodish.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
(Best to pay attention to the one that says "67 up, 2 down")
The others mistake the fact that it is often said squeezing one’s cheek as a sign of cuteness. It just means “face” and is said affectionately, but is not often always a compliment.
...and now I'm here
Aha. Thanks.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
Speaking of the Nats, what ever happened to Escoteric?
"you don’t drive in runs with base on balls."
~gitanoloco
He posted 9 hours ago in the Beltre thread.
...and now I'm here
This was my reaction
So when do we trade for Strasburg? (Never, I know)
by Kirk on Dec 8, 2009 1:47 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
That's all the time the Nats need for Bryce Harper to be ready.
Actually, I doubt he’ll be ready so soon, but the idea of a Strasburg/Harper battery is insane.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 8, 2009 7:12 AM PST up reply actions
Rangers say thank you Nats...
And everyone thought he was going to take the arbitration offer..
That was a free supplemental 1st pick…
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
Makes sense for Pudge.
What team sucks enough that they’ll give him two more years to pad his numbers for the HoF?
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Dec 8, 2009 8:57 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
He's a first-ballot HOF guy anyway. He's just hurting his rate stats at this point.
I think the easy answer is probably the right one: it’s just about money.
I think the Nats said they're planning more of a 60/40 Flores/Pudge split which he agreed to
So yeah, probably about the money.
I'm really hoping that the USSM Mariner writers twitter feed will burst to life soon to get me through the last two hours of work.
This has been such a boring day so far…
Here's a shocker
Mariners like Bay, but not that much — 10:53 a.m.
The Mariners like free-agent left fielder Jason Bay — who doesn’t? — but their interest has been “overstated,” according to major-league sources.
The M’s concern with Bay is that his defensive shortcomings would be exacerbated playing in the big left field at Safeco Field. Bay played in an expansive left field earlier in his career at Pittsburgh’s PNC Park, but over the course of a long-term deal his range would figure to further decline.
Then again, while the M’s have stressed defense under new general manager Jack Zduriencik, they also need a big bat, particularly with third baseman Adrian Beltre rejecting their offer of salary arbitration.
If Bay is not that bat, they will need to find one elsewhere. — Ken Rosenthal
The only way I see GMZ signing Bay is a below market contract and his agreeing to be a full-time DH.
These reporters need to be more creative.
Well it's pretty obvious that Bay really, really wants to come here
So I can see how there is somewhat of a story here. They just don’t seem to care to check if it actually makes sense for both sides before drumming up all this hype this time of year.
I love how the same people that shit on Beltre for underperforming are now talking about how the Ms need Bay to replace him.
The irony of course is that given the same environment Beltre should be more valuable going forward.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
I tried to explain this to someone.
And got no where.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 8, 2009 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
YES YES YES YES YES
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
This could just be completely made up though.
Its coming from Jon Heyman
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 8, 2009 9:26 AM PST up reply actions
Careful not to kick too hard.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Dec 8, 2009 9:26 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
This would almost make me cry. But, is he really worth taking up space on the roster?
Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.
p.s. fuck you angels
Could say the same for Griffey.
NOSTALGIA TOUR 2010! BIGGER AND BETTER!
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Dec 8, 2009 9:28 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
According to Edgar, that's not going to happen.
He says that he got talked into playing in a corporate softball game last year, and in his first at-bat, the pitcher threw three pitches past him, and he didn’t see any of them :)
by msb on Dec 8, 2009 9:31 AM PST up reply actions
I have said the same for Griffey, minus the almost cry part.
Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.
p.s. fuck you angels
Would Randy have any value in the Bullpen?
Besides looking incredible with a Trojan helmet on him.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 8, 2009 9:30 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I have dreams of Griffdawg finally melting his cold heart and actually seeing a Randy smile
The prospect of Randy getting tickled is too great to think about.
I would take him for his value as a player
It’s probably unlikely he can stay healthy, but barring last year’s injury-riddled affair he’s still an effective pitcher, amazingly. And he’s probably pretty cheap.
Also this would that be awesome for multiple other reasons.
Hell fucking yes.
Randy Johnson is still really good.
I will smash your face into a jelly.
by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 8, 2009 9:51 AM PST up reply actions
"Will the Mariners have the organizational courage to move Ichiro to the 2nd hole?"
asks Cory Schwartz, invoking the Jeter/Damon batting order swap of last season
Certainly, the biggest obstacle will be Ichiro's outsized ego
and unwillingness to sacrifice stats for the team’s success.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 9:45 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, because if they keep Ichiro leading off they must not have organizational courage
My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!
Griffey! Big Unit! Cammy!
Fucking awesome.
I will smash your face into a jelly.
by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 8, 2009 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
We're kicking tires on everyone.
Still, if we’re only so close to contention, we might as well have ourselves another fine trip down nostalgia lane.
Cammy can still play at least.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 8, 2009 10:18 AM PST up reply actions
It'll be interesting to see how far from contention we really are when this all shakes out.
Cameron + Guti + Ichiro has to be the best outfield defense of all time, though.
Let's bring back Washburn and then trade him again!
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 8, 2009 10:41 AM PST up reply actions
I would be all for that
He’ll have like a 0.98 ERA with that defense out there
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
I am secretly hoping for this + Beltre returning.
Assuming Chone could play 2nd well, that would be the best defense of all time.
Jesus.
Arizona got fucked hard in this deal.
I will smash your face into a jelly.
by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 8, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
My God, what the hell is Arizona thinking?
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Well at least it keep Cameron out of New York
but FUCK why give a player like Granderson to the Yankees
I really don't get this at all from the Diamondback perspective
My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!
Heyman says the Granderson deal is a go.
I don’t get this trade at all. There has to be another asset going somewhere
This doesnt make sense to me in that
there seems no need at all for the Tigers to involve the Dbacks at this stage. If NY is only getting Granderson, then effectively it is a Kennedy/A Jackson/Coke for Granderson trade. Which… I dunno. I like Granderson but that seems like a great deal to pay for him, given those players’ salaries and service time etc.
Then there’s a separate Edwin Jackson + Kennedy for Scherzer + Schlereth trade that makes little sense for Arizona. I mean, I don’t know THAT much about the Arizona players but this just doesnt compute.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 11:22 AM PST up reply actions
Unless its a quantity over quality thing for AZ
but still.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 11:23 AM PST up reply actions
I think the Diamondbacks must have gotten confused about the three way deal thing and thought their team was getting more
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
Curtis Granderson is one of the most likeable guys in baseball.
Shame I have to hate him now
He's going to hit 40 homers in that park.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Dec 8, 2009 11:44 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Just what the Yankees needed
A young, relatively cheap every day CF with a plus glove and 25+ HR power.
by JLC on Dec 8, 2009 7:00 PM PST up reply actions
@d_a_cameron
“Arizona should have two press conferences – one to announce the trade, and another to apologize to their fans.”
by msb on Dec 8, 2009 11:34 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
If I was a D-Backs fan I'd be raiding my liquor cabinet right now.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Raffy Soriano
looks like his accepting arbitration was mostly a way to get around draft pick comp. There’s apparently some form of agreement that he’ll request a trade and likely will also agree to a more reasonable salary than would he would have in a normal arbitration process.
Also worth noting is that Penny’s deal with the Cards has a no arbitration clause if he becomes a type A. I imagine we’re going to start seeing a lot of these in relief pitchers’ contracts.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 11:51 AM PST reply actions
Won't it really kill his trade value if there's some requirement in the arbitration that he bed traded?
*BE traded.
It would be one hell of an interested contract if he were required to “bed trade” – that sounds like a euphemism for wife-swapping.
I doubt it
Likely there are already some interested parties with an idea of what he should be paid. This happened last year with some reliever from the NLC I think.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 11:56 AM PST up reply actions
I know penny starts
but Elias rankings screw relievers much harder than starters.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions
Ryan Church was DFA'd
I would love to see Ryan Church in left field
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
At this point is he that much better then Langerhans?
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 8, 2009 11:59 AM PST up reply actions
We're kicking the tires on everyone!
Everything must go! And go to Seattle because they have money to spend!
Probably a better hitter
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
@gbakermariners
“Peter Gammons bows out at ESPN: leaves to pursue other endeavors”
Is he linked to the Mariners, too?
Everyone else in Bristol, Connecticut
Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.
p.s. fuck you angels
End of an era. Good luck in your future endeavors, Peter.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Hey, Bobby Crosby is about to sign with the Pirates!
And gets to compete with Ronny Cedeno for the shortstop job! Oh how the mighty* have fallen.
*According to ESPN.
A Mariners fan in Seattle
I had no idea Bobby Crosby was still in the league.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Was used in a utility role by the A's this season.
Mostly at third and first. Worth -.7 wins overall. Not surprised to see Beane let him go.
A Mariners fan in Seattle
from yesterday:
@keithlaw : He can barely walk – he shouldn’t be that hard to catch. RT @mlbtraderumors Pirates Intensify Pursuit Of Bobby Crosby
by msb on Dec 8, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions
Gammons loved him
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions
I can't help it if I like to eat tweet things.
by HARRYP09 on Dec 8, 2009 1:07 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
This is one of the worst puns I've seen in a while.
rec
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 8, 2009 3:45 PM PST up reply actions
Will Carrol believes that Jason Bay is one of Seattle's top targets.
Do people take Baseball Prospectus seriously anymore?
He also keeps repeating that the Mariners have a ton of cash to spend.
by msb on Dec 8, 2009 1:10 PM PST up reply actions
Isn't this his "thing"?
(Which I recall Graham or Matthew or someone just completely tearing apart at some point).
Holy shit
That windmill’s arms are hideously torqued by the x motion in that delivery. Expect rotator cuff issues, and soon.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2009 1:22 PM PST up reply actions 10 recs
They haven't for a while.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 8, 2009 3:47 PM PST up reply actions
Heh, the Rangers wanted Chris Tillman from the Orioles for Millwood.
Does Daniels think that MacPhail is stupid or something?
A Mariners fan in Seattle
Chone Figgins is apparently official now.
So says Mike Salk.
Any official terms?
Also, wooo! I hope he annoys the hell out of someone else for the next few years like he has annoyed me.
by EnglishMariner on Dec 8, 2009 1:47 PM PST up reply actions
No word yet
Jack is going to be talking to the media fairly soon and might be on with Mike Salk in the next few minutes.
You got som ebig shoes to fill shortie
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 2:02 PM PST up reply actions
If we somehow sign Beltre, although I seriously doubt that will happen, we've definitely gotta trade Loafie.
I don’t want Lopez to be our starting first baseman.
My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!
Well I have no sense of direction...
…so I just stopped and pointed at the panorama of Safeco hanging just above my computer monitor…
SHOW FiFi THE MONEY!!!!
Well hey look at that a new wallpaper!
The Yankees suck-a-doodle-doo!
by JamMasterJesus on Dec 8, 2009 3:50 PM PST up reply actions
It was said earlier, but it kind of deserves to be repeated
If we got Beltre and by some miracle Cameron too, that would be one of the best defenses ever.
Yes Please.
Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.
p.s. fuck you angels
No but that would be fucking amazing if we could sign Beltre, move Figgins to second base, and trade Lopez
I’d be sad to see Lopez go but I love Beltre more
My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!
Reports out of Chicago indicate Milton Bradley's about to get dealt to an AL team
really really hoping its the Mariners. He’d be like Carl Everett all over again, except with talent.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 2:21 PM PST reply actions
But he'd greatly improve our scoring runs party
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions
Oh that's good
“if you think of him as a 4th outfielder this is a great deal for us”
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 2:28 PM PST up reply actions
The 2004, 5, 6, 7, and 8 Seattle Mariners?
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
Scott Boras on XM today:
"You have Beltre who’s averaging 25 to 30 home runs in Seattle. He is the best defensive third baseman in Major League Baseball. He’s 30 years old and third baseman, as you know, play at high levels at older ages. So there’s a lot of interest in Adrian Beltre. He has a lot of choices. And, certainly, Seattle is one of those teams that continues to show interest in him. And so he’s a young man that few teams have and we’re certainly going to evaluate the marketplace for him."
YAHOO!'S TIM BROWN SPECULATING SILVA-FOR-BRADLEY SWAP
There have been rumors of a surprise new team in the Bradley sweepstakes, and Seattle is a “possible” destination.
Oh god let this happen.
Oh my god I would shit my pants.
Rumors that come out of left field are normally true!
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 8, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions
FROM TIM BROWN'S MOUTH TO GOD'S EAR
OH MY FUCKING GOD IF ZDURIENCIK PULLS THIS OFF HE IS A FUCKING WIZARD WITH A 12" WAND
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions
AND FUCKING IS A GERUND IN THAT SENTENCE
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I should hav phrased this as
from Tim Brown’s drug-addled sleep deprived imagination to god’s ear.
Overexcited I guess.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 3:09 PM PST up reply actions
sorry for the caps, thought it was appropriate though
by ManifestDestiny on Dec 8, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions
Given that they could probably get Burrell
I find this unlikely without us throwing in a prospect or something.
FUCK THE ANGELS!
by Fuckmikereilly on Dec 8, 2009 2:48 PM PST up reply actions
I would be happy to let them have any of our first rounders from the Bavasi era
They’re first rounders! Hot!
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 2:50 PM PST up reply actions
How God-awful stupid would you have to be to do this
From the Cubs perspective?
WHAT
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
Rangers are no longer interested according to Sherman
Rays wouldn’t be the surprise team since they’ve been connected to him all along. If this is true, I cannot wait for fanfest. Not only for a Milton Bradley appearance but to perform verbal fellatio on the front office for two straight days.
by edddgar on Dec 8, 2009 2:57 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
How do you fellate a woman?
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 3:02 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You've obviously never been to Thailand.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Dec 8, 2009 3:08 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 5 recs
This is massively implausible on many levels
Would be fun though
by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions
Yes
If that trade goes through it will be like a reverse Soriano
by Graham MacAree on Dec 8, 2009 3:24 PM PST up reply actions
Reverse Soriano
Sounds like a wonderful sexual position.
Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.
p.s. fuck you angels
Not the reverse
Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.
p.s. fuck you angels
The reverse is a new thing for us
We get to be the pitchers instead of the catchers
by Brian Floyd on Dec 8, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
UPDATE:
“Nothing imminent, but Cubs and M’s are talking Bradley and Silva.”
The fact that they’re actually talking about this is hilarious.
by ManifestDestiny on Dec 8, 2009 3:13 PM PST up reply actions
Wonder how that's going?
GMZ: “I’ll give you this fat one for that angry one”
by Brian Floyd on Dec 8, 2009 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Deal is three-team deal, three-quarters of the way done
FUCK THE ANGELS!
by Fuckmikereilly on Dec 8, 2009 3:24 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, I don't think it involves the M's
Not to mention, Stone just shot it down
FUCK THE ANGELS!
by Fuckmikereilly on Dec 8, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
Sounds right for the worng reasons
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
Doesn't actually mention the trading partners
I just can’t bring myself to believe that deal actually involves the M’s and Silva.
by drblacknwhite on Dec 8, 2009 3:25 PM PST up reply actions
I don't know
His pre-Seattle track record is reason for some optimism I guess. Plus, Lou wants guys who have been through wars, not some rookie that doesn’t get it.
This is the worst thing I've ever heard.
Because now I’m going to refresh Twitter every 5 seconds for the next 96 hours just to see if there is any chance this went down. Thanks. My week is now ruined.
...and now I'm here
I logged back into mlb.com's feed in time to see the last 5 seconds of Jeff Nelson.
You’ll be surprised I’m sure to hear he has a crew-cut.
Cameron willing to move from Center to Left
For “The right team.”
Is that us?
No one else will ever love him the way we do
My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!
??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBiuQlW9tR4
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Dec 8, 2009 3:10 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I would imagine Cammy would move for us.
I’m pretty sure he still loves Seattle. Far from certain that Jack will pay him as much as the competition though. There may be better places to spend our money, as much as I love Cameron.
FUCK THE ANGELS!
by Fuckmikereilly on Dec 8, 2009 3:08 PM PST up reply actions
Jack Zduriencik on the MLB Live winter meetings show right now
My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!
Z and the MLB network have back spasms.
I will smash your face into a jelly.
by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 8, 2009 3:19 PM PST up reply actions
Zduriencik mentions Mariners having the best defense last year.
Just hearing that is so awesome.
SEA!
???
PLEASE! PLEASE MAKE FELIZ GO FAR FAR AWAY!
FUCK THE ANGELS!
by Fuckmikereilly on Dec 8, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions
That rumor just oozes dumb.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Dec 8, 2009 3:30 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Kind of yeah.
Rangers have no money, trade good young players for guy about to hit arby payday?
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 8, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions
So what's the difference between ESPN Boston and regular ESPN
Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.
p.s. fuck you angels
Honesty
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 3:40 PM PST up reply actions
I would almost throw in Lopez to make that deal happen
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
I would almost throw in Mike Carp to make that deal happen
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
Too fat and lazy.
Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.
p.s. fuck you angels
Texas loves to piss away their pitching prospects
so there must be something to it
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 3:39 PM PST up reply actions
Hmmm...
Not sure why I’m posting this, but Ryan Church was DFA’d to make room for Soriano. I’ve always thought he was decent.
SHOW FiFi THE MONEY!!!!
Well the Silva/Bradley thing was adressed quickly and violently
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 4:02 PM PST reply actions
Drayer was probably as flummoxed as we were about the rumor.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
If we got Cubs T-shirts for Silva I'd be happy.
Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.
p.s. fuck you angels
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY! WHAT THE FUCK WHY WOULD DO THAT? WHAT WHAT WHAT
MAX IS BETTER THAN JACKSON RIGHT FUCKING NOW YOU MISERABLE ASSCLOWNS! THIS IS SO MANY INFCUKINGCALCUABLE TIMES WORSE THAN THE ERIC BYRNES CONTRACT. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!
YOU SAW HIM AS A RELIEVER? THEN WHY THE FUCK DID HE SPEND THE WHOLE YEAR AS A FUCKING STARTER! AND ON TOP OF THAT, SCHERLETH GOES AWAY TOO?
FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCVK DAMNIT MOTHERFUCK!
"you don’t drive in runs with base on balls."
~gitanoloco
by Goose on Dec 8, 2009 4:03 PM PST reply actions 11 recs
QUICK JACK! TRADE THE FARM SYSTEM FOR JUSTIN UPTON SO I CAN ABANDON THIS SINKING SHIP ALTOGETHER!
FUCK THE DBACKS!
Mobile rec!
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Dec 8, 2009 4:17 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Shannon's new blog post makes me love Beltre even more.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Except Beltre says he has never been to the playoffs.
Does he forget 2004?
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 8, 2009 4:18 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah that's really weird
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
how times have changed
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions
The commenters at AZ Snakepit actually like this deal.
I can’t fathom why.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
I stopped reading that thread when someone brought up the Verducci Rule.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
"If everyone thinks this deal is so bad, the Front Office must know something nobody else does"
seems to be the justification
which is retarded
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
Classic appeal to authority fallacy.
Maybe they’re just hiding the pain.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
I've avoided the DBacks online community for years because of two reasons:
1.They are retarded.
2.They are obsessed with Eric Byrnes and won’t shut the fuck up about him.
FUCK THE DBACKS!
Seems to me that the Granderson trade hurts the Angels ...
… because the Yankees now have fewer trade chips. Accordingly they are nore likely to hit the free agent market for another starter instead of trading.
Which means the price to sing Lackey probably just got a lot higher.
It would if they'd used their prospects to trade for Halladay instead of Granderson.
They have nothing left to trade the Blue Jays now, so they’re going to have to look at free agents if they want to add a pitcher. Having the Yankees involved in the bidding for Lackey could very well drive his price up.
by nathaniel dawson on Dec 8, 2009 6:15 PM PST up reply actions
Didn't they let Damon go? If you had to pencil in an outfield, who have they got right now, including a backup?
I’m not sharpshooting you, I just really don’t know what’s going on with the Yankees and am suddenly very curious.
GOD :(
#Angels exploring trading an infielder, source says, likely M.Izturis, perhaps Kendrick. Aybar, Wood sound untouchable.
http://twitter.com/ed_price/status/6488366310
angels fan in seattle
I would take Izturis in a heartbeat. He's a league average hitter, switch hitter, and plus defender at SS, 2B, and 3B who was at 2.8 WAR last year in 114 games (Branyan was 2.8 WAR in 116 games, by comparison)
He’s 2010 will be his third arb year, but he’ll make maybe 2 million this year. I’d imagine it’d be quite easy to sign him to an extension if we want to. He’s got 8 WAR in about 400 games in the past four years – that’s almost 3 wins every 150 games. What would his price be? Is Morrow too high?
Eyebrows would flip his shit.
I will smash your face into a jelly.
by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 9, 2009 7:53 AM PST up reply actions
Well this has been a boring day for news.
Besides the Yankees/Tiger/DBacks trade, a whole lot of nothing happened today.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Yeah. I would expect tomorrow and Thursday to be a LOT more exciting.
My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!
Little tidbits here and there to start off the day.
According to Rob Bradford of WEEI.com, the Red Sox are putting themselves in a position to make a run at free agent Adrian Beltre.
First the Red Sox will have to find a suitor for Mike Lowell, which won’t be easy. The guy is 35 years old and is owed $12 million in 2010. On top of it all, he’s an injury risk. Beltre, 30, hit .265/.304/.379 in 2009 while playing superb defense and would fit in well in Boston, but there are hurdles that must be jumped before any deal can come close to happening.
Yankees re-signed LHP Andy Pettitte to a one-year, $11.75 million contract.
FUCK THE DBACKS!
That's Beltre gone then. Boston is a great fit for him, imagine how productive he would be off the wall?
They also seem like the type of team that would appreciate his talents and potential upside in the right environment.
by EnglishMariner on Dec 9, 2009 8:09 AM PST up reply actions
@BrockAndSalt - It goes back a ways, but I also heard that the Mariners specifically chose Jack Wilson over JJ Hardy. They could have had either one.
Yuck.
That sucks.
I will smash your face into a jelly.
by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 9, 2009 8:25 AM PST up reply actions
That's not something I wanted to hear
still, if anyone knows Hardy and what he’s got to offer its Zduriencik its not like he overlooked some kind of hidden value there.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 8:27 AM PST up reply actions
Carlos Gomez?
Did the Breweres drop their asking price that much?
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 9, 2009 9:38 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, it was much higher than Carlos Gomez
by Graham MacAree on Dec 9, 2009 9:38 AM PST up reply actions
So what happened between then and now
that caused them to figure Gomez sounded like a good deal. I really don’t get that trade. I would have given so much more than Gomez for Hardy.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 9, 2009 9:40 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah I'm just surprised
A little piece of me is sad we got Jack Wilson and didn’t hold out for Hardy at the reduced price. Clement would be a nice piece to slip into our open 1B/DH spot this year.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 9, 2009 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
Trade deadlines usually give the team with the player in demand leverage.
The Brewers gambled, didn’t get a trade done, and lost their leverage after the season.
From that Salk blog post.
-Saying the Mariners have had talks with an agent about a player almost doesn’t count as news here. One agent told me that Jack Zduriencik has been legitimately interested in virtually everyone available! But he went on to rave about how easy it has been to work with Jack. He went out of his way to say that Jack has been the "most direct and upfront general manager" he has dealt with here in Indianapolis. He also mentioned that Jack seems to be heading two paths simultaneously (in terms of acquiring bats and arms), but that the team seems equally willing to down either direction. I love that! It keeps all of your options open, and allows you to maintain leverage in any negotiation. And it jibes entirely with what Jack told us yesterday: that he never likes to close doors on any possibility. He believes that one side presents an opportunity, you open dialogue, and if you meet and it works for both sides then you have an agreement. Sounds simple enough, right?
Thats pretty awesome.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 9, 2009 9:17 AM PST up reply actions
He goes out and does something like this.
What a great face for the franchise.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 9, 2009 9:38 AM PST up reply actions
Kinda under the radar, but former M's/DBacks manager Bob Melvin was hired by the Mets yesterday as a scout.
FUCK THE DBACKS!
And so the winter meetings crawl along
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 9, 2009 8:27 AM PST up reply actions
I really hope something happens today.
And that something involves our team. And that something is a good thing.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Woo
Ran into an agent with the same agency that represents Rich Harden. The Twins have not been in contact recently and it sounded like the Mariners had a good shot to land him.
http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/neal/2009/12/09/morning-update/
You got slurved!
HELL YES!
I will smash your face into a jelly.
by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 9, 2009 9:12 AM PST up reply actions
What kind of deal are we talking here?
1/$9M? 1/$8M with some vesting option for like 2/20 ish?
The Granderson trade thread at FG gets hilarious when Brian G. pops in.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-big-trade/#comments
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
That guy...wow. Just wow.
I will smash your face into a jelly.
by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 9, 2009 9:33 AM PST up reply actions
I'm amazed.
Playing baseball in your backyard doesn’t count Tom. Being a math geek guarnatees you 2 things in this life one your not getting laid and two your arguments are flawed by numbers that don’t pass the eye test. In watching a baseball game Curtis Granderson is a very average ball player who has batted over.300 once and has never had an OBP over .370 despite averaging well over 130 K’s a year for a guy batting lead off.
OMG!! He's never had an OBP more the 40 points above the league average!
get rid of him now!
Is there some school offering online courses in baseball ignorance arguments?
The “eye test” seems to be pretty omnipresent.
I can walk you through that school's entire cirriculum
“math equations that you made up”
“you never have sex”
“do you even know what the sun looks like”
“tell your mom I said hi when you come up from the basement”
“have you ever actually seen baseball before”
“I bet you didn’t get cut from the team in high school like I did!”
“fag”
by seattlebruin on Dec 9, 2009 10:01 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I've totally been laid.
But then again I’m bad at math.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 9, 2009 10:07 AM PST up reply actions
Ummmm, he is
You do know he’s from the Yankees system right?
We missed the lottery when Lincoln squashed the Washburn for Melky deal.
We could have had ourselves a bonafide superstar!
As if the Dodgers decision-making w/r/t Randy Wolf could look any more dumber (albeit in retrospect):
@Ken_Rosenthal: Randy Wolf agrees with Brewers – three years.
So w/r/t the Morosi Tweets...
This one followed by this one…
Lopez and Silva for Guillen & GEORGE SHERRILL! Dodgers get Lopez & Silva, M’s get Guillen & Sherrill, Tigers get Pierre. If it takes adding someone like French or Vargas to the pot that goes to the Dodgers (although they’d be adding a little salary, which they don’t want to do — hence them also swapping Sherrill out who will make some decent cash in arbitration), then fine…
SHOW FiFi THE MONEY!!!!
I would love to see that trade, but I'd hope Lopez and Silva would be all we have to give up
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
Also it should be noted that Carlos Guillen is an infielder we used to have
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
Kinda like Granderson.
After all, he strikes out way too much.
I will smash your face into a jelly.
by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 9, 2009 10:32 AM PST up reply actions

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