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Around SBN: Odds On Peyton Manning's Next Home Includes Three Teams

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Yep.

If that’s not exclusively based on the last guaranteed year of his deal, it worries me a bit.

by Aaron Campeau on Dec 4, 2009 7:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Aren't they usually based on the year prior?

I don’t know a lot about vesting options but I figure this one will be PA-based, and if Figgins isn’t very good in 2013, he won’t get a lot of PAs.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 4, 2009 8:08 PM PST up reply actions  

I think i remember

that the CBA limits what can trigger a vesting option so it can be PA-based but can’t be based on many performance metrics.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 5, 2009 1:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Doubt the vesting option is anything to worry about

They aren’t dumb enough to give him a realistic shot at a 5th year

by OlSalty on Dec 4, 2009 7:45 PM PST up reply actions  

If he's still playing well...

in year 4, they can’t sit him just to avoid his option vesting. The MLBPA will file a grievance, and they’ll win.

by slamcactus on Dec 5, 2009 1:09 PM PST up reply actions  

And if he's blocking their better prospects (Triunfel, Ackley) at the positions he usually plays you could probably get away with relegating him to a utility role and limiting his PA's that way

But again if he’s still capable of doing close to what he’s doing now in 2013 then letting the option vest wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing.

If he’s bad at that point and it would be a bad thing they won’t let it happen.

by OlSalty on Dec 5, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions  

He will probably still make for a pretty good utility guy, I would hope.

2009 Safeco Field Record: 6-0 ; Overall Safeco Field Record: 10-4

by Fin on Dec 6, 2009 11:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Didn't Jose Vidro or someone similarly useless have a vesting option?

And didn’t we not allow that to vest?

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 4, 2009 7:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, Yes

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org

by Corco on Dec 4, 2009 8:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes.

And like Jeff said, the vesting occurs in the year prior to the vesting year. And as far as I have seen, its always PA-related.

Vidro’s was 450 PA appearances, I believe. Maybe 400. Somewhere in that range. Makes me shudder to think we allowed him to bat so much knowing it would cost us 6 million dollars more.

by Slica on Dec 4, 2009 9:46 PM PST up reply actions  

With Bavasi, this was something that we could legitimately question.

In Zduriencik’s case, I think that there’s more than enough evidence to prove that if he doesn’t want the option to vest, the option will not vest.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 4, 2009 9:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh, and Figgins' vesting option is rumored to be about 9 million.

Thats alot to spend for a guy who likely will start to nosedive in the 4th/5th years of the deal.

It tells me that if he isn’t consistently doing then what he is doing now, its essentially a 3 year deal (lack of playing time in year 4, thus the option doesn’t vest—-elimintating year 5).

Not sure what this positive thinking is, but I like it. The deal, too.

by Slica on Dec 4, 2009 9:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Yay!

Whats up with the option? Will this be a team option?

by ARock on Dec 4, 2009 8:06 PM PST reply actions  

Sort of

They can keep the option from vesting by not letting him reach the required number of plate appearances in 2013.

by OlSalty on Dec 4, 2009 8:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Not really

It makes good sense. If he’s not playing well enough in 2013 to bring him back for 2014 at the same price (slightly cheaper in year-to-year dollars with inflation), he probably isn’t playing well enough to deserve a ton of PAs.

It’s a safeguard against being stuck with a guy coming off a significant injury or well into the decline phase of his career, but makes the player happy because if he continues to perform (and what player doesn’t expect that of themselves?) he’s got a 5/45 contract.

Rooting for lovable losers since 1984.

by seattlecougar on Dec 5, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm either drunk or warming up to this deal

I assume it’s the latter.

Welcome to Seattle, Chone! May you make many great plays at 2nd base

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org

by Corco on Dec 4, 2009 8:10 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

You're just trying to piss SB off now, aren't you?

Say it with me: Washington Capitals. Capitals.
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997

by JLProck on Dec 4, 2009 10:19 PM PST up reply actions  

3rd base - check.

Now on to the #2 starter. Helllllooo Harden!

Karma police, arrest this man.

by wyte_lightning on Dec 4, 2009 8:36 PM PST reply actions  

Daniel Cabrera?

He’s as big a piece of #2 as a starter comes.

Also, that’s begging for a Bartolo Colon joke, isn’t it?

by chrisisasavage on Dec 5, 2009 4:03 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm hoping Beltre accepts arbitration (I realize it won't happen)

I would love to see Beltre and Figgins in the infield

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org

by Corco on Dec 4, 2009 10:04 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm hoping we throw Beltre a lot of curveballs low and away

I will, however, miss his infectious smile. Too bad he was a complete fucking moron at the plate. Also, I will miss antics like this:

by JLC on Dec 4, 2009 10:18 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

I personally think more players should do this.

Especially outfielders when they know they can’t get to a homerun.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Dec 4, 2009 10:36 PM PST up reply actions  

It would still be considered a home run if they did this and the ump determined it would have gone out

I used to think this would be cool too and wondered why players didn’t at least try; a friend corrected me by showing me in the rule book where if they did and hit the ball and the ump thought it was out, they would still rule it a home run.

by hiskeyd on Dec 4, 2009 11:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Ah

So this is why they need a week-long umpire camp. I’m assuming the perfect logic behind this rule is that a hat weighs less, and is thus less likely to impede the path of the ball?

Rooting for lovable losers since 1984.

by seattlecougar on Dec 5, 2009 10:54 AM PST up reply actions  

Jesus fuck they hava a rule for everything.

And yet a rule book this thorough doesn’t bother to point out that the home team can’t change the rules. Unbelievable.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Dec 5, 2009 12:29 AM PST up reply actions   2 recs

such=suck

"you don’t drive in runs with base on balls."
~gitanoloco

by Goose on Dec 5, 2009 1:27 AM PST up reply actions  

I would venture to say...

it’s less about the M’s worrying about it vesting, and more about Figgins expecting it to vest. I’m sure Figgy doesn’t expect to suck late in his career, so naturally the vesting year is an incentive for him to sign giving the M’s leverage without guaranteed cash. If he sucks down the line, we take the proper measures to make sure it doesn’t vest. I just don’t see the problem there.

by Jason X USN on Dec 5, 2009 2:14 AM PST up reply actions  

Totally agree with you

In the interest of trying to refute my own argument, the only thing I can think of is that with his versatility he’s going to be a lot harder to keep out of the lineup than Vidro was. Give him 350 PAs through August and then (insert 2B/3B/LF here) goes down in the midst of a pennant race? It’s a lot easier to find a stopgap at DH to keep Vidro on the bench.

Rooting for lovable losers since 1984.

by seattlecougar on Dec 5, 2009 10:58 AM PST up reply actions  

If he sucks he won't play, then you don't have to worry about year five

If he’s good then we get to keep him. I don’t see what the problem is.

by Poochie on Dec 5, 2009 10:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Doesnt anyone think

That they overpaid for him?

Id say to the tune of about $6 million (on the generous side).

I think its a great pick up, but at what price. There is a TON of luck in his previous WAR. As Jeff mentioned he has great line drive rates but 1 year where that luck comes down and a step is lost due to age, and he loses a game or two on offense and one on defense.

Of course, if he repeats his 09 season the contract pays for itself.

by backtocali on Dec 5, 2009 3:22 AM PST reply actions  

Free agent wins generally cost about 4.5 million each

He was worth 6.1 wins in 2009. If he repeated that highly unlikely performance, he’d be worth 27.45 million dollars. In one year.

He needs to be worth 2 wins above replacement to be worth 9 million a year. With the exception of 2006, he’s never been worth less than that. We expect him to be worth ~3 wins, making this contract at least valuable, with upside. Again, we expect him to be worth less than half his value in 2009, and it’s still a good deal, and there’s upside, and it fills a need, and he can play multiple positions.

It’s not a spectacular contract by any means. What it is, is a contract that makes sense. Whenever you pay free agents, unless they are extremely high risk, a “contract that makes sense” is considered a win.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Dec 5, 2009 3:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes

As much as we talk about spending efficiently, the fact is that it is very difficult to land a player at much below his value. If you pay a player $9M a year to produce 2.5 wins a year, you are getting a good deal as an MLB club—you’re basically paying 80% of what the player would cost in a perfectly efficient market.

I think Figgins has +3-4 win value next season. CHONE predictions have him at .340 wOBA, which is about 4 runs. He’s a great base runner. Add 2 more runs. He’s a solid defender. 7 runs. He plays third base, 2.5 runs. 20 runs for replacement level, and that adds up to 35.5 runs, or 3.5 wins.

Great deals with Free Agents come in the form of someone way out-performing reasonable projections. It’s is impossible to know which free agents will do this. Moreover, since free agents are relatively old players, it’s pretty rare for them to breakout.

by philosofool on Dec 5, 2009 11:34 AM PST up reply actions  

He was probably worth closer to 7 wins last year if you consider baserunning.

Baseball Prospectus had him at +7.2 runs on the bases, Fangraphs at 7.4. If you were to project him at 4 WAR next year, his value would be around $17 MM. Even if he underperforms or ages more quickly than expected, you have to assume some salary inflation in the coming years and he’ll likely still be worth the contract even if it vests for the 5th year.

I can’t see this as being anything but a steal for the M’s.

by nathaniel dawson on Dec 5, 2009 1:59 PM PST up reply actions  

J/M/G

Do you project Figgins as our #2 batter? That seems the best spot for him to bat.

Say it with me: Washington Capitals. Capitals.
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997

by JLProck on Dec 5, 2009 10:46 AM PST reply actions  

I project that Wak will make that decision.

I can affirm that 2 seems the best spot for him, but as far where he actually bats…

by Matthew on Dec 5, 2009 10:49 AM PST up reply actions  

If Ichiro will let it happy Figgins should bat leadoff.

Imagine the holes on the right side of the infield for Ichi to slap the ball through.

by Bamer_ on Dec 5, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions  

Imagine the less opportunities for Ichiro to hit infield singles.

Infield singles are a major part of Ichiro’s game and his ability to reach 200 hits each season. I don’t think he will be batting anywhere but lead off.

by Wilder. on Dec 5, 2009 11:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Ichiro's average is actually much higher...

…with runners on first. So maybe he should bad 2nd.

by coreyjro on Dec 5, 2009 11:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Where are you getting this?

B-R has Ichiro with a .331 average with no one on and .331 with a man on first, BABIP slightly higher w/ no one on

It's a little wrong to say a tomato is a vegetable, it's very wrong to say it's a suspension bridge

by Trenchtown on Dec 5, 2009 11:43 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah well what do they know?

I want to poop at your house - Thingray

by tootthekazoo on Dec 5, 2009 11:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Baseball statistics since 1871?

It's a little wrong to say a tomato is a vegetable, it's very wrong to say it's a suspension bridge

by Trenchtown on Dec 5, 2009 11:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Pffffft

I want to poop at your house - Thingray

by tootthekazoo on Dec 5, 2009 11:47 AM PST up reply actions  

I was using three years splits...

…on ESPN. Your numbers look better though.

by coreyjro on Dec 5, 2009 11:47 AM PST up reply actions  

As soon as this deal went down my first thought was the possibility of clubhouse

friction between Figgy and Ichiro over who was the better lead-off batter and who should bat where in the order. They are both All Star lead-off men with the pride and ego to go with it. It just seems it could lead to some friction.

The 2009 Pregame Picks Winner and Iron Man of Halos Heaven.com

by 44FAN on Dec 5, 2009 12:10 PM PST up reply actions  

You must be new.

The 2009 Pregame Picks Winner and Iron Man of Halos Heaven.com

by 44FAN on Dec 5, 2009 12:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, I don't know much about baseball.

I guess that’s I thought it seemed silly to speculate on stuff like that, but that’s just my inexperience.

by abender20 on Dec 5, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions   3 recs

It's probably the best spot for him

He hits more line drives and fly balls than Ichiro and thus will ground into fewer double plays.

by philosofool on Dec 5, 2009 11:39 AM PST up reply actions  

You could also argue...

…that Ichiro gets more hits, so Figgins can go from first to third. Or, if Figgins steals 2nd Ichiro hits turn into runs, rather than if Ichiro steals 2nd, Figgins walks turn into 1st and 2nd.

by coreyjro on Dec 5, 2009 11:41 AM PST up reply actions  

J/M/G/K

You forgot “K” there. I assume you wanted my opinion as well.

I project Figgins as batting second in the lineup. No one’s moving Ichiro from lead-off.

by katal on Dec 5, 2009 11:43 AM PST up reply actions   8 recs

My bad.

Say it with me: Washington Capitals. Capitals.
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997

by JLProck on Dec 5, 2009 9:13 PM PST up reply actions  

What if

Beltre accepts arbitration???

by shhh...I'm lurking on Dec 5, 2009 7:17 PM PST reply actions  

Then we have the raddest defense of all time.

Ichiro, Gutierrez, Saunders, Beltre, Wilson, Chone, whoever? That’s like 5-6 WAR from the defense of 6 starting players. Fill in the runs added by backing them up with some combo of Hannhan/Hall/Langerhans/Tui/Wilson, and an average 1B/C and we could see 10 WAR from fielding alone.* That’s twice as much as non-M’s/Rays team from last year.

*Griffey DH’s only.

by Terminator X on Dec 5, 2009 9:51 PM PST up reply actions  

To me that's ideal

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org

by Corco on Dec 5, 2009 10:58 PM PST up reply actions  

I suddenly <3 Chone Figgins

I can’t wait to watch a giant slap hitting douche that pisses off everyone else play on our team

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org

by Corco on Dec 5, 2009 11:24 PM PST up reply actions  

We already have a slap hitter that pisses off everyone else.

Ichiro just doesn’t meet your douche qualification.

Say it with me: Washington Capitals. Capitals.
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997

by JLProck on Dec 5, 2009 11:29 PM PST reply actions  

Fuck me.

That’s two reply fails this week. I’m off my game.

Say it with me: Washington Capitals. Capitals.
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997

by JLProck on Dec 5, 2009 11:29 PM PST up reply actions  

That's why Ichiro is awesome

He can wreak havoc without pissing everyone off. Sean Figgins can’t do that; he’ll actually piss everyone off, and that’s good enough

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org

by Corco on Dec 5, 2009 11:32 PM PST up reply actions  

So this is what our roster looks like at present, right?

(L) RF Ichiro
(S) 3B Chone Figgins
® 2B Jose Lopez
(L) 1B Russell Branyan
® CF Franklin Gutierrez
(L) DH Ken Griffey Junior
® SS Jack Wilson
(L) LF Michael Saunders
® C Adam Moore

® UT Bill Hall
(L) UT Jack Hannahan
(L) OF Ryan Langerhans
® C Rob Johnson
® 3B-2B Matt Tuiasasopo

1. RHP Felix Hernandez
2. RHP_________(Rich Harden?)
3. LHP Ryan Rowland Smith
4. RHP Brandon Morrow (or trade him for a 2B?)
5. RHP Ian Snell
RHP Carlos Silva
LHP Luke French
RHP Doug Fister
LHP Jason Vargas

RHP David Aardsma
RHP Shawn Kelley
LHP Nick Hill
RHP Sean White
Aumont? Fields?

And no, I’m not fixing the copyrights.

by Decatur on Dec 6, 2009 1:48 AM PST reply actions  

Ugh. Forgot to mention that too. I'm off my game.

Dave Cameron, November 10th,

I’d still be fairly confident that the M’s and Branyan will work something out too, but if he’s really dead set on getting more than one year, it’s going to take a while. He’s going to have to hit the market, feel the cold sting of rejection, and realize that the M’s were being fair. He’s just too risky to give a mutli-year deal too.

Maybe better than 50-50 is a bit strong, after re-reading Jeff’s piece from Thankgiving-ish about Branyan, but I thought that prospects for a deal with Branyan have risen slightly since then. Maybe I’m just imagining things.

by Decatur on Dec 6, 2009 6:30 AM PST up reply actions  

No, I think it's pretty much unanimous that it would probably be a shock if Branyan didn't return

I don’t see anyone giving him 2 years and he said he’d sign with Seattle for less. 1 year guaranteed, 2nd year with a vesting option just makes a lot of sense.

by edddgar on Dec 6, 2009 9:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Beltre has declined arbitration

Per Jim Bowden on Twitter. Take that with a toolsy grain of salt.

by Bodhizefa on Dec 6, 2009 4:39 PM PST reply actions  

Noooooooo-oh fuck it, we all knew this was coming.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 6, 2009 5:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Yep!

Apparently he was hired to do a baseball show on XM radio.

Personally, think I’ll wait for someone else to confirm this one.

by OlSalty on Dec 6, 2009 5:19 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd go with now.

Because if he signs with the Angels it will be much harder to appreciate him.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

by JY on Dec 6, 2009 6:06 PM PST up reply actions  

OH GOD ADRIAN'S GONE!

"you don’t drive in runs with base on balls."
~gitanoloco

by Goose on Dec 6, 2009 5:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Bootre :(

2009 Safeco Field Record: 6-0 ; Overall Safeco Field Record: 10-4

by Fin on Dec 6, 2009 11:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Booo

I may have to start disliking Beltre depending on his landing, but I’ll never warm up to Figgins. No former Angels, unless they’ve had a few teams in between to become better people.

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Dec 6, 2009 10:00 PM PST reply actions  

People warmed up to Speizio?

I guess that was pre-LL days, but I just assumed everyone hated him. I always loathed him. Actually I always hated Washburn too.

by SethGrandpa on Dec 6, 2009 11:19 PM PST up reply actions  

I think that was the joke.

2009 Safeco Field Record: 6-0 ; Overall Safeco Field Record: 10-4

by Fin on Dec 6, 2009 11:35 PM PST up reply actions  

I really do not understand the concept of hating a good player that comes to the M's from a rival,

or any team that you hate for that matter. It also seems a little contradictory to say that you may hate Beltre if he goes to the Angels but you can’t warm up to Figgins coming to Seattle. It seems like taking a good player from a team you hate would be a positive thing. I guess this is one of those times where logic is overridden by emotion, but I don’t understand the contingent that don’t like the move based on their opinion of the player. Personally, winning is the only thing that matters.

by Zwakamatsu on Dec 7, 2009 11:26 AM PST up reply actions  

People don't have to understand.

Baseball is one of the few things that I actually allow emotion to affect my perception of.

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Dec 7, 2009 9:27 PM PST up reply actions  

I hope Beltre lands in a place where the fans appreciate him.

The last game of the year was awesome for sure, but it made me sad the poor send off that Beltre received after years of great service.

by EnglishMariner on Dec 7, 2009 7:47 AM PST reply actions  

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