Morrow Trade Reaction Overflow Thread
Sounds like it's Morrow for League + Jomerhyn Chavez, which sucks.
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I Can't Help But Think There Is More In Play Here...
Otherwise, Jack has some ’splaining to do.
Alvin Davis, your legacy is no longer tarnished.
It makes sense if we were trading Halman as part of a larger deal
but we’d be selling low in his case, and the org seems to have gone out of their way to help him out after his troubles this past season.
So basically, it doesn’t make sense.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
Maybe this was part of the agreement with Lee/Halladay.
Perhaps Toronto forced the Phillies to trade with us, so that they’d get Morrow in this ridiculousness.
...and now I'm here
Chavez video:
Looks like we re-acquired Wlad.
Blah.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Jomerhyn! is too many syllables.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
Maybe so, but in Spanish those syllables are pronounced "HOMERING".
Kid was apparently born to play baseball AND hit dingers.
by jnbt02 on Dec 22, 2009 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Awesome, if true.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
Except I think he walks some and has less power.
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 22, 2009 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
The power seems to be about the same.
ISO of ~.200 in the MWL is nothing to sneeze at.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 12:02 PM PST up reply actions
He also has at least one bad DFA.
I refer, of course, to Potatoes.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 22, 2009 2:05 PM PST up reply actions
Bavasi DFA'd Potatoes at the beginning of 08 if I'm not mistaken
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
You're mistaken.
Jack was hired in October and Potatoes was DFA’d and picked up on waivers by the Braves on Nov. 20th. It was one of his first moves.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 22, 2009 2:14 PM PST up reply actions
I missed that... what player was nicknamed Potatoes?!?
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 22, 2009 3:08 PM PST up reply actions
it's wacky because he's Irish and they grow potatoes there
(would also work for Harmon Killebrew, because he’s from Idaho)
Ahh...
I don’t even remember him!
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 22, 2009 3:20 PM PST up reply actions
huh...wow
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
I really think that trade is debatable as a bad trade
Saunders>Balentien and with Wlad out of options, he would have gone through waivers and likely been picked up. Manuel, despite underwhelming skills put up solid numbers. When we tried to remove him from the 40-man, he got picked up.
Eh...I still find it hard to believe we couldn't have gotten anything better.
Probably just my M’s bias…but still.
This is odd
Chavez seems like such a departure from the type of player Jack has valued. Real puzzling…
When did you see Wlad take 4 pitches in an at bat and double?
His body is like Wlad, but thats about it
He has the body of Wlad, and the plate discipline of Halman.
Seriously, his BB/K numbers are putrid:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=paN06508&position=OF
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
So I assumed we were going to use Morrow
to get better this year. This trade doesn’t really do that or appear to do much of anything else besides cleanse our farm system of anybody connected to Bavasi.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 22, 2009 11:48 AM PST reply actions
Meh, League is a 1.5-ish win reliever which is a 1.5 win upgrade over whoever he's replacing in the bullpen.
I can live with the deal, although I don’t exactly know why we were shopping Morrow so much.
Hey everyone, Follow me on Twitter!, check out My Baseball Blog, and Last.fm me!
I doubt he can get to 1.5 wins
I’ll be satisfied if he gets to 0.5
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
League is certainly not a 1.5 WAR reliever
How did you even come up with that number?
by Graham MacAree on Dec 22, 2009 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
2.1 WAR over his last 106 expected innings.
Adjust for leverage (assume he’s set-up) and there you have 1.5 wins.
Hey everyone, Follow me on Twitter!, check out My Baseball Blog, and Last.fm me!
Past performance should not be used to project true talent
This is a big problem I’m having with career WAR posted on fangraphs. You shouldn’t just project it out. People get lucky and that drastically effects their past performance.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 22, 2009 11:55 AM PST up reply actions
That's what trA and trA* are for, which is what I used for the calculation.
Hey everyone, Follow me on Twitter!, check out My Baseball Blog, and Last.fm me!
I was just surprised because 1.5 WAR is pretty much a top 20 relief pitcher
and those pitchers are almost all closers who use leverage to get that high of value.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 22, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions
I dunno. League's had a lot of ok seasons and like two amazing ones
He’s a weird guy to project, but I don’t think he should be anything close to 1.5 WAR
by Graham MacAree on Dec 22, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah I'm fine with 0.5-1 WAR
Projecting a RP above 1 WAR seems destine for disappointment.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 22, 2009 12:33 PM PST up reply actions
I look forward to the LL ban on...
…mentioning the name of Cy Young Brandon Morrow and how he could have been ours.
by Attractive Nuisance on Dec 22, 2009 11:50 AM PST reply actions
If I were di-a-betting man.
I would disagree.
2009 Safeco Field Record: 6-0 ; Overall Safeco Field Record: 10-4
by Fin on Dec 22, 2009 11:57 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That's very insulin-tating.
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on Dec 22, 2009 11:58 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Why do you have to be a betting man
to disagree?
by Attractive Nuisance on Dec 22, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions
Well said, Scrufff.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 22, 2009 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
Same here
That said, I’d still like to get something worthwhile out of him
I want to poop at your house - Thingray
by tootthekazoo on Dec 22, 2009 1:01 PM PST up reply actions
How serious is this?
Seems like this is the third or fourth prospect someone has heard the M’s are getting. Why are we more certain about this one?
Because this one comes from an actual source, apparently.
The Blue Jays’ beat writer on MLB.com. Of course I wouldn’t necessarily trust any “sources” of Jim Street so we’ll see….
A Mariners fan in Seattle
by Coach Owens on Dec 22, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions
Just to follow-up. I can't fathom why Jack would make this move. Usually bad deals like this
are done when you are desperate to fill a weakness on your team. Bullpen isn’t a weakness.
This isn't exactly fresh insight ...
… but if this is his value on the market, why not finally give Morrow a real, sustained chance in the rotation? With all the bungling in his development, I don’t think we ever really got a feel for what he could do. I understand that managing talent is about balancing upside against volatility – and Morrow had lots of both – but trading Morrow for League seems like reducing the volatility at the expense of eliminating much of the upside and potential value.
In which case I'd rather find innovative ways to torment him in the clubhouse ....
Seems like that would be much more satisfying than exchanging him for a mediocre trade return.
by Chris Hafner on Dec 22, 2009 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
We may be able to reduce the standing ovation to 10 minutes instead of 15 for the USSM get-together.
I fucking hate you Mariners
The funny thing is if you include it in the Cliff Lee deal it's still oh my god amazing
by Graham MacAree on Dec 22, 2009 11:54 AM PST reply actions
Is that what this is?
Is it within the realm of reason that the Morrow trade with Toronto was considered by all parties to be “part of” the deal, and they’ve just finished cleaning up the details?
Yup.
It really speaks to how far the M’s have come if we’re upset about this.
Alvin Davis, your legacy is no longer tarnished.
by Doug Taylor on Dec 22, 2009 11:58 AM PST up reply actions
True!
Maybe thats what this really is? Seems pretty strangle though.
It isn't though
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
Of course that writer just says he's "hearing" that it's Chavez.
Not exactly reliable.
A Mariners fan in Seattle
So it sounds like we traded Morrow for League with Chavez being thrown in for kicks.
Makes me wonder about Morrow’s worth to the organization and to the rest of baseball? If this is all we’re getting we couldn’t just keep Morrow? Unless our org simply didn’t prefer having him around.
Also strange how none of the other trade linked to Morrow never went through.
by ThundaPC on Dec 22, 2009 11:56 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Booooooooooo!
This Sucks!! Is Morrow’s value that low? If so, why not just hang on to him and hope he shows some improvement.
So, assuming this trade happens and we do look for another starter?
Has the market changed with the Jason Marquis signing? He’s not exactly good and just signed for $7.5M a year. If so, I’d rather we keep Morrow.
A Mariners fan in Seattle
Marquis is a 2-3 win pitcher probably.
Maybe better in RFK stadium, so his salary is ok. Its still a buyer’s market.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
Marquis is not a 2-3 win pitcher.
He’s a 1-2 win pitcher
So if you figure him for 1.5 wins
And figure a win costs $4.5m, it’s only a slight overpay. Plus the Nationals are dumb.
The Nationals really shouldn't be paying market rate for wins.
Then again, they’re so bad that it doesn’t matter.
Hold on guys.
Lets not freak out Morrow hasn’t exactly been lights out and has yet to develop his off speed which makes him a below average starter. Also this Chavez guy hit 21 HRs last year at the age of 21 so maybe Jack sees some sort of upside in him. I think it is a little funny as well but based on what this GM has done so far I know I should be patient and see how it plays out.
by brinkislikevickheabusesdawgs on Dec 22, 2009 12:07 PM PST reply actions
This is really the best deal out there for Morrow?
Guess we over-valued him. Not even a David Cooper or Tallet. Don’t like this deal one bit.
If this is really the best deal out there for Morrow
I would have preferred not to make a deal.
Chavez is arguably a much better return than Cooper
Tallet would of been nice though. I do not think the Jays would be willing to part with him though. The Jays seem to be doing spagetti on the wall, with their projected starting rotation in 2010 having so many variables.
Not a great trade on our part though.
by tdot mariner fan on Dec 22, 2009 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
Nevermind on Tallet
I thought his XFIP was better than it actually was, does not really offer anything more than league. Probably less when you consider positional scarcity.
by tdot mariner fan on Dec 22, 2009 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
What is this going to do to the Zduriencik appreciation banner?
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 12:09 PM PST reply actions
Is League much better of a RP than Morrow?
I could see him being better now but he’s also more expensive and the difference can’t be that small. Morrow in relief always felt like a waste of resources but he was pretty damn awesome at times.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 22, 2009 12:12 PM PST reply actions
He seems more dependable
if such a thing could be said of relievers. At least he knows what his job is.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 12:21 PM PST up reply actions
We couldn't even pull a top 10 prospect away from them. Good grief.
And their system is pretty bad.
It was in the bottom 10 easily before the Halladay trade
Made worse by them lowballing excellent draft selections this year.
by tdot mariner fan on Dec 22, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
Not getting Paxton, Eliopolous, or Barrett screwed them.
Of course, I wanted Paxton, so if he’s still around when we pick…
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
Paxton for 2010
I wonder if he has a bad year, we can snap him up at a low value like Varvarro and try him up as a starter until his control fails. His arsenal would still be good in relief.
by tdot mariner fan on Dec 22, 2009 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
Varvaro had TJ surgery
and ended up being picked in the 12th round I think. I like the idea of those picks, even if in practice they didn’t work out all that often, but would prefer that Paxton didn’t have TJ before we signed him.
He is apparently in some sort of kerfuffle with his school because he has an agent or something, so he could slip based on that, depending on if he pitches and whatnot.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
Yeah I knew about th TJ surgery
Paxton’s control collapsing could see him have a less than good season though, though it would not affect his bonus demands as much as TJ surgery. If he could be had after the 5th round, I would love that based on the pure stuff he has.
by tdot mariner fan on Dec 22, 2009 12:48 PM PST up reply actions
I thought they were top-15 even before the Halladay trade.
At least based on the THT list I saw in April. Definitely not deep, though.
They are bottom 5 even after the Halladay trade
by Graham MacAree on Dec 22, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
Before the recent trades, middle of the pack with some helium.
Now, maybe around the top of the bottom third.
It depends on how much you think of the arms we acquired over the summer via Betancourt and Washburn. We came into the season, mid-pack, we might have worked our way up to just below ten, and then these recent ones sent us back down to mid again.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
Triunfel's stock seems ot have tumbled quickly
he was supposed to be the jewel more or less. How much of the low rank has to do with his injury, weight gain, and lack of positoin?
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
It depends.
Much has been made of this being the thing that got Triunfel to focus on his work. Drayer had a great story a while back about how, because of the weight gain, they made him sign a contract that he wouldn’t leave until he was under 200, and he ended up at 196 and paid for about half his meals while he was at it. Other stories have corroborated with this, pointing out that he had been a pretty poor student as English went up until now and he’s recently devoted more energy to it and gotten a lot better.
It’s not a lot to go on, but he’s in the top five for me, though he’ll have to show more power to stay there. The lack of position is the most problematic thing when you take that into consideration.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
Huh.
Brett Wallace and Travis Snider seem better than what a lot of teams have lying around. Is it that they have nothing in the low minors?
As noted...
they fucked up their last draft big time by not signing their supplemental rounder through third round pick and their international presence is not exactly remarkable.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
White Jays!
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
Not everyone they draft is white, but they don't have many other avenues.
They closed their VSL facility in favor of opening another one in the Dominican, which they closed later. They have a little going on with that team now, but nothing that really knocks one’s socks off.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
I'm sure they have a great international presence
I mean, they must get their hands on plenty of players from the United States, right?
I want to poop at your house - Thingray
by tootthekazoo on Dec 22, 2009 1:05 PM PST up reply actions
Zing.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 22, 2009 1:08 PM PST up reply actions
It's funny because they're in a different country than we are
I want to poop at your house - Thingray
by tootthekazoo on Dec 22, 2009 1:15 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Actually, in this case, overexplaining it makes it vastly funnier
by Chris Hafner on Dec 22, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions
The joke was dumb enough to begin with.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 22, 2009 1:45 PM PST up reply actions
They also saw a great deal of upper minors pitching graduate last year
such as Romero, Rzepczynski, and Cecil. Also, Snider lost eligbility.
Others, such as Mills, Arencibia, Jackson, Cooper, and their plethora of low minors prep players had terrible seasons.
by tdot mariner fan on Dec 22, 2009 12:34 PM PST up reply actions
Big dude
Just saw the video on YouTube of Chavez. That is one big 20 year old. Glass half full here but David Ortiz was once a Vlad B and Yohermyn C clone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MimrNpffewM
Not really
Ortiz was better at getting on base than Wlad when he was in the minors.
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
OBS
Guess you are right
Vlad minors 273 .345 .526
Ortiz . 310 .383 .533
Chavez . 261 .331 .416
Can you use the reply button in the future
It’s really difficult to keep up with the conversation without it
by Graham MacAree on Dec 22, 2009 12:32 PM PST up reply actions
Amused
try to avoid getting too worked up until we hear more and/or from another source.
And last night — before the “chavez” rumor broke — the previous thread was already over 800.
Anyway, couldn’t we just view this in a different light? The Cliff Lee deal was a true three-team trade involving four M’s four prospects — three to Philly for Lee, and one to Toronto — and Seattle got back Lee + League + a Toronto prospect?
Well like Graham pointed out you can see it that way and feel better about life and the Mariners
but it wasn’t a three team deal and Morrow is entirely separate from Lee and Halladay. LIke everyone’s been saying, the return for him is an indication of how low his stock has fallen, much like Clement before him. Bavasi’s drafts haven’t done us well the last few years.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
So it seems like Z's target was League, with Chavez as an interesting prospect
Seems like he might be used as a setup man or future closer. Maybe part of a bigger plan to shift Aardsma or Lowe to another team for a position player?
Either way, Drayer and others think they will be trading or signing a new starter, so maybe this doesn’t mean Fister, Vargas, or Olson making it into the rotation.
by magistermilitum on Dec 22, 2009 12:42 PM PST reply actions
I'm pretty sure Aardsma has less service time than League so it's hard to see him as the closer of the future unless you're right
and AAA is headed out of town.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
From the link:
Bob Fontaine’s drafts with the Mariners brought us…
2004: Matt Tuiasosopo, Rob Johnson, Mark Lowe & Michael Saunders
2005: Jeff Clement & Justin Thomas
2006: Brandon Morrow, Chris Tillman, Tony Butler, Nathan Adcock, Adam Moore & Kam Mickolio
2007: Phillippe Aumont
2008: Dennis Raben, Aaron Pribanic, Brett Lorin, Luke Burnett
Thomas, Saunders, Moore, Burnett, Raben
the only survivors.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
Thomas didn't survive.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 22, 2009 1:08 PM PST up reply actions
Alas
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions
I'm starting to wonder if it's more a development system, and the older guys missed the boat.
Not so much Fontaine, just switching up how they teach these guys.
I hate morrow
I hate the trade now. Unless Jesus Jack Z is signing afree agent pitcher, our back rotation consists of snell, rowland smith, and hope
It is an underwhelming group
you have to admit. There is upside there, but not much.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions
It's not like Morrow changes that much
by Graham MacAree on Dec 22, 2009 12:55 PM PST up reply actions
No but the return for him does
As I see it the team needs to add 3 of the following four: solid #3 type starter, a 1B, a catcher and a reliever. I expected Morrow to bring back either a pitcher or a 1B/C, since the reliever was easy enough to do without giving up anything.
With Morrow gone we have little left to trade and don’t have the money to sign a 1B and a pitcher. But whatever, I guess the people running the team have an idea of what they’re doing.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 1:07 PM PST up reply actions
The rational expectation of Morrow doesn't, but the upside does ...
Even if it’s relatively unlikely that he hits that upside in 2010.
by Chris Hafner on Dec 22, 2009 1:09 PM PST up reply actions
Now Baker's saying it's...
That's not what he's saying
“Brandon Morrow deal: catcher Brian Jeroloman reportedly discussed by Mariners as possible return in deal”
by Graham MacAree on Dec 22, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
That article is a couple hours old and he's posted since then that it's Chavez
My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!
Welcome to four hours ago
And you misquote him
by Brian Floyd on Dec 22, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
Argh.
Got a cached refresh somehow. Sorry about that.
by Dave Clapper on Dec 22, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
I'd rather have JP arencibia
“Brian Jeroloman reportedly discussed by Mariners as possible return in deal”
When the words possibly and reportedly are in there sounds like more speculation
by MagicMike23 on Dec 22, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
Crap, this looks like a bad trade
Morrow’s value as a league average starter is about $32m. Subtract arbitration awards for three years, and you’re probably looking at a net of ~$20m.
League is under team control for one year less and as a reliever is perhaps worth $12m at the high end. He’s also arbitration eligible and that’s likely to reduce his net to something like $7m. Chavez is like a $3m asset, so combined they’re worth about $10m.
Which means we’re getting fleeced to the tune of $10m, roughly, if this goes down.
Of course it all depends on how likely you think it is that Morrow is a league average starter
If you think the chances are 50% then things even out.
Which is a very big "IF"
Not saying Jack Z’s evaluation is right or wrong. But if the trade is this lopsided on paper, then maybe he believes that Morrow’s upside is worth more in trade versus its value to the team measured against his risk. Other teams know that risk level too, and this could be the best deal out there. Z is going for it this year and doesn’t have time to wait and see if his projected mid-rotation starter is healthy or even a starter at all. The guy is an underperforming, injury-prone high draft pick with diabetes. Time to cut bait.
by lemonverbena on Dec 22, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions
Fangraphs is projecting him at 1.7 WAR next year
Which isn’t too far off. If he can make the transition to being a starter I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility to assume he’ll be about league average.
Like I mentioned above, this all depends on how likely you think that is. But if that’s what he turns out to be, and I don’t think it’s crazy to see that happening, then we’re getting burned bad.
No, Fangraphs is not.
Fans, by which I mean, we, are.
Which is stupid.
Sorry, you're right, fans are
But when we were talking about moving Morrow before today I think most of us were thinking about him as an asset with risk, but with a reasonable chance to turn into a league average starter. Today may have adjusted our thinking, but that’s certainly where I was. I figured:
30% chance he blows out and turns into a reliever or his career goes bust
50% chance he turns into a league average starter
20% chance he turns into a better than league average starter
I think the fan projections show that I wasn’t alone in that.
Ok, I'm willing to admit that I was being optimistic
What do you think his chances were? I guest what I’m asking is what do you think he was worth going into today and do you think that a $10m return is about right?
20% bust, 30% good reliever, 25% back end starter, 15% ace closer, 10% mid-top starter
by Graham MacAree on Dec 22, 2009 1:22 PM PST up reply actions
The way this season is shaping up, Morrow learning how to pitch at the ML level is not something I care to see.
Man alive his development was screwed up from day one. What the hell were they thinking bringing him up in ’08 anyway, that season was dead on arrival.
I'm skeptical of the fans projection
I doubt he throws 135 innings as a starting pitcher. His best season was .6 WAR and I’ve seen nothing that makes me believe that he is going to improve on that.
yeah that's what I'm saying - you did get burned
but I got criticized for saying that even before the lesser prospect was announced. Morrow is more valuable than League + prospect. You can’t win them all I guess
by GobbleforCyoung on Dec 22, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions
No, you got criticised for being a dick while saying it
by Graham MacAree on Dec 22, 2009 2:05 PM PST up reply actions
by saying that you lost this trade before everyone here realized it?
By saying “are you serious” to the ABSOLUTE AUDACITY of some on this board that Snider, Wallace or Stewart just had to be part of the trade because Z is so much smarter than everyone else.
By saying the truth makes me a dick. Got it
by GobbleforCyoung on Dec 22, 2009 2:08 PM PST up reply actions
My bad, you just -are- a dick
That little misconception is all cleared up
by Graham MacAree on Dec 22, 2009 2:09 PM PST up reply actions
Nice
I know it sucks to lose Morrow, but if Z believes League will help the team more in 2010 until Morrow figures his shit out than that is what matters.
The Mariners are set up to go for it all in 2010. You do realize that you have a pretty good shot to win the WS. There really is no question you will win the West. Once Harden gets hurt Texas is finished, Oakland sucks and LA lost their ace and a great player in Figgins Matsui can’t help LA if they don’t make the postseason
by GobbleforCyoung on Dec 22, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions
This may be a difficult thing for you to grasp
But I have a much more acute awareness of what goes on with the Mariners and the AL West than you do. I also am pretty good at this thing called ‘analysis’ too. Why you thought you’d talk down to an author of the blog you’re posting on is frankly beyond me.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 22, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions
I think you took the Snider/Wallace comments way too seriously.
That’s all. Now lets all just forget it.
For what it's worth,
here’s Sickels’ list of Jays prospects. Chavez ranks fifth. Maybe we’re not seeing something because of how raw he is?
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 1:09 PM PST reply actions
Oh my god I am a retard
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 1:10 PM PST up reply actions
At least you're the one who pointed it out first
by Graham MacAree on Dec 22, 2009 1:11 PM PST up reply actions
There's hope for me then
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 1:12 PM PST up reply actions
Sigh

De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
I believe the man has his head in his ass
My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!
There are surely more constructive ways of expressing disdain
by Graham MacAree on Dec 22, 2009 1:15 PM PST up reply actions
Why not just assume that Jack
has a brilliant plan? (Or maybe he’s just messing with us.)
Not encumbered by the thought process.
by Bart's Evil Twin on Dec 22, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
I just don't know why you single out Goose here. Seems like a lot of regulars on here respond to things with one-worded statements that don't add to the conversation.
I fucking hate you Mariners
Goose had to be taken down a notch
what with all the good news coming out of AZ recently.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions
Because nobody else does it so much that I get annoyed by it
by Graham MacAree on Dec 22, 2009 1:35 PM PST up reply actions
Wait, you were serious?
I’m not really excited by the return that we received for Brandon Morrow. I thought that “Yawn” pretty much conveyed that sentiment.
All Hail Zduriencik!
My understanding was the Tigers wanted too much
and Jackson will win more in arbitration than he deserves since he’s not as good as his superficial numbers suggested. He does throw hard though.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 1:32 PM PST up reply actions
I am sure Pedro is loving this. He didn't have anything to support his blog.
Now he has LL/USSM community to back up his blog with this horrible trade.
So when Brandon League pitches for us next year...
Do we get to say ‘Diabetes’ in the game threads?
Overbay
I still contend that Overbay is part of this deal. They need to get rid of him. I do not care what they are saying about Vlad episode II. With their new 1 bagger from the A’s Wallace, and looking at 2013 for contention Overbay makes no sense.
Vlad 2.0 would be fucking fantastic
but this guy looks like Wlad 2.0 which is less cool. Though At least this kid seems to be a capable fielder which Wlad was always questionable for.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 1:48 PM PST up reply actions
Dear Jack,
This is a very bad trade. However, you are still a good GM.
by killer_ewok18 on Dec 22, 2009 1:47 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Oh dear.
d_a_cameron Kick in the pants. @ConorGlassey informs me that Johermyn Chavez was available in the Rule 5 draft. No one took him.
Fuck Anaheim.
So its basically Morrow for League
It will be interesting to hear the justification for this.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 22, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
I guess
But League is barely an upgrade over Morrow in 2010
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 22, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe Jack just got fed up with Morrow.
I think League is definitely a safer bet in the bullpen than Morrow and Jack may have a safer bet lined up for the rotation. If the M’s are making a run in 2010 then Brandon Morrow just seems like too much of a risk.
Fuck Anaheim.
This trade does not pass the smell test.
It really stinks.
by killer_ewok18 on Dec 22, 2009 1:52 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I doubt Jack wanted to keep a 21 year old with a raw power swing on the 25 man all season
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 1:53 PM PST up reply actions
the Minor League portion of the Rule 5 draft has no such restriction
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
He was playing too high to qualify for minor league Rule 5, I think.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 22, 2009 2:03 PM PST up reply actions
Doubt it
Marshall Hubbard was in AA and he got picked
by Graham MacAree on Dec 22, 2009 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
Good point.
I think it’s just that I’m used to seeing older summer league type players getting picked up in the minor league rule 5 despite not playing in full season ball year. Miguel Marquez was one of them who got nabbed from us recently.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 22, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions
Well, no one took him because they didn't want him on the 25 man roster.
It’s not like he would break camp with the big club.
Unless he was available in the minor league portion then I retract my statement.
I know there are a lot of strange rules involved with the Rule V draft, but if he is 21, how could he be available?
If he was signed when he was 17 and he’s 21 now, he shouldn’t have been eligible.
Four years?
They may have counted the year he signed too, which was presumably 16 not 17.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Dec 22, 2009 2:04 PM PST up reply actions
Wikipedia was wrong on this one
“- were signed at age 18 or younger and have been in the organization for five years.”
Of course when I referred to BA and it’s saying: “Players who were 18 or younger on June 5 preceding the signing of their first contract must be protected after four minor league seasons.”
Also, in Geoff Baker’s article in the Times he’s saying Chavez was signed when he was in fact 17.
If he was available in the minor league protion
To be available in the minor league portion he must not be on either the AA or AAA reserve list. No service time rules.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
You know, maybe Jack needs to make a bad trade on purpose so other GMs don't feel as though they are getting fleeced by a mastermind.
You have to play stupid sometimes.
Note: I do not actually believe this, but I thought I would throw it out there.
Maybe he's doing it because he doesn't want the fans' expectations to be too high.
He knew he just pulled off 2 steals so he decides to botch one so his next 3-4 deals look fabulous even if they’re just good.
Maybe he doesn't want a banner
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
I want my money back.
Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.
p.s. fuck you angels
I was kidding.
Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.
p.s. fuck you angels
I think he prefers the term cleansing
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 22, 2009 2:18 PM PST up reply actions
It depends which school you are from
Stalin or the more modern Slobodan Milosevic
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 22, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions
Feel free to blow a huge hole in my logic here
But don’t both Morrow and League both project to be 1 WAR next year? and any extra future value Morrow might have is made up for in the extra prospect?
Doesn’t that mean we come out even?
Nope.
We have Morrow under cheap control for longer. Plus, Morrow could be a starter which would add a ton of value to him.
As a starter, Morrow's ceiling is significantly higher than League's
Whether he’ll ever reach it is a different issue. Thanks, Bavasi!
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions
ugh seth beat me
computer is sooooooooo slow
Could League be a starter?
He became a different pitcher last year and it’s possible Zduriencik thinks that he could transition to the rotation. I’m aware he’s never started a game before, but his value could be much higher as a sinker change up pitcher who dominates righties.
I imagine he was acquired to pitch late innings
he may be able to start but the Mariners likely won’t waste the money to try to find out. He’ll be paid too much to work on his stuff in AA and he walks in three years.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 2:22 PM PST up reply actions
Do we know if Shawn Kelley is a potential starter?
Because this would allow League to take over Kelley’s duties while he transitions as a starter.
League appears to be quite a bit better than Kelley.
I’d think you’d want the better of the two starting.
Don't really see the need for him to work on his stuff.
Just need to stretch him out for the beginning of the season. He’s got two legitimate pitches, which is more than Morrow can say.
I'm being lazy here,
but basically if he were any good as a starter he’d be doing it. Stories like Ryan Dempster’s are very very rare. League may be a capable starter, but my guess is we’ll never know.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 2:30 PM PST up reply actions
Understood.
I’m just saying that League became a completely different pitcher last year and there is a possibility that Zduriencik thinks that pitcher can start. He went from throwing 83% fastballs to 65% fastballs (sinkers) and his primary off speed pitch went from a slider that he used 12% of the time to a change or splitter that he used 33% of the time. I understand that 70 IP is a small sample size, but sometimes in order to get the right player you have to jump first.
Okey, thank god for B-R
he was a starter in the Jays system for his early career. He did okay in his age 18/19 seasons and got as far as A+ ball where he suddenly couldn’t get the K’s any more. He got bumped to the pen in AA at 21 and pretty much stuck there since.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 2:38 PM PST up reply actions
Ditto.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 22, 2009 2:30 PM PST up reply actions
Not much overreaction, if any.
Just confusion and trying to make sense of the whole thing.
Morrow thread
Not sure about that? We are not talking about Mike Carp. We are talking about our 1st round draft pick that at one time was going to be an amazing 1-2 punch. Basically the equivalent to Felix and Lee. We had to go out and get Lee because Marrow cratered into what he is today. An afterthought not even worthy of his own link on ESPN.
Woah, hold on a second
Morrow was never considered to be in the same sentence as either Lee or Felix, not even his ceiling.
To be fair, Cliff Lee was never considered to be in the same sentence as New Cliff Lee.
Some guys just figure it out and go nuts. But I agree, Morrow’s ceiling always seemed to be as an above-average starter. Maybe a 2, if we want to give it a number.
So any confirmation that Chavez is the prospect they're sending over?
The only confirmation seems to be that the source is extremely reliable but we can hope right???
You got slurved!










