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Why Jose Lopez at First Base is a Poor Idea

This is not really a pressing issue at the moment, but some future posts are going to build off this concept and it's bound to come up in the future, so consider this a bookmark post. Feel free to refer back when the inevitable happens.

Jose Lopez the last two seasons has posted WARs of 2.0 and 2.6 and was at 2.1 in 2006. His dreadfully awful 2007 really mars the picture, but the outline is still clear. While Lopez has the potential to crater offensively at times, always a possibility with free swinging righties in Safeco Field, he is a decent bet to produce a final 2010 line close to this (figures are relative to league average):

0 run bat
0 run glove
+2.5 positional adjustment
+20 replacement level

That's a 2.25 WAR player, slightly above average. For the $2.5 million that he's slated to earn in 2010, that's a real bargain, on the order of an $8-10 million asset. What would happen if we moved him to first base however?

Well, he would no longer be playing second base, for starts. Second base is a nearly perfect position for Jose Lopez's defensive skill set. He has average range for a second baseman and he turns the double play well. Lopez's problem are the retarded errors that he tends to make, seemingly stemming from lapses in concentration that, along with his hacktastic hitting style, serve to profile him as a lazy player. Moving to first base would probably cut down on his error rate, as first baseman get involved in much fewer plays of the type that lead to errors and their dropped catches are always blamed on the thrower for some reason.

I would expect Lopez then to gain about three runs in defensive value from reduced errors and probably three runs or so from increased range. He would also lose about a run from no longer being involved in double play turns. In the end, about a five run boost in total seems reasonable. Incidentally, that's in close range to the increases in defensive value that Miguel Cabrera (from third base) and Albert Pujols (from left field) saw after moving to first base. Furthermore, moving to first base from a non-catcher or DH role seems to offer no increase in hitting skill.

The downside is that first base carries a 12.5 run penalty with it as it is among the easiest of all positions to fill. Coming from second base, with its 2.5 run bonus, Lopez would see an instant 15 run drop in positional value. Those extra five runs in defensive skill, from being compared to first baseman instead of second baseman, is not enough to make up the difference. Lopez's likely projection at first base would look approximately like this:

Lopez, at first base:
0 run bat
5 run glove
-12.5 positional adjustment
+20 replacement level

Moving Lopez to first base has the net effect of chopping about a whole win off his value. That $8-10 million asset is now a $4-5 million one. In addition, that 1.25 WAR or so does not constitute much of an improvement over what we would expect from Jack Hannahan or Mike Carp, much less from any outside options that may or may not be available.

I've been against it for years, every time it gets brought up in the media, or here, or anywhere. Jose Lopez at first base is a bad idea. It's an inefficient use of resources and represents a fractional upgrade at best over current in house options at the cost of opening a much more difficult hole to fill. If the Mariners find themselves in a situation in which Jose Lopez's services at second base are no longer desired or needed, then a trade is almost certainly going to be the optimal route.

Comment 79 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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I totally agree.

So does that mean we should just stop looking at Beltre as a viable option? Because I just don’t see the Mariners getting proper value for Lopez this offseason. I could be wrong but the teams that want/need a 2B are going to go after Orlando Hudson and Felipe Lopez first and deal with their own guys second. It’s really, really looking like a buyer’s market for keystoners this year. Jack Z is, of course, Jack Z so I guess I can’t leave anything beyond the realm of possibility but this is pretty close IMO.

by Johnny Slick on Dec 20, 2009 11:36 PM PST reply actions  

Any time the club mentioned it, it just seemed like one of those typical bullshit stories to try to gain leverage in trade negotiations

Like “if we do sign Beltre back we’re totally fine playing Lopez at 1B!” kind of thing. Even though they obviously know how stupid that would be, they just hope the club they’re dealing Lopez doesn’t realize that and so allows them to extract more value from them.

by OlSalty on Dec 20, 2009 11:39 PM PST reply actions  

All kidding aside,

it seems that most people who advocate moving Lopez to 1B are under the impression that he is an extremely poor fielder, rather than right around average. Anyone who is educated in positional adjustments and has access to fangraphs should probably understand that it’s a bad idea.

by I Lick Squirrels on Dec 20, 2009 11:44 PM PST up reply actions  

True dat.

He’s not exactly Jose Offerman, which incidentally was another minus move. Offerman is in a sense a bit like Lopez, actually, in that he was a good, solid hitter for a second baseman but not so much for a first baseman (how he got there was about as far from Lopez as you can get but I digress). Unlike Offerman, Lopez isn’t such an awful 2B that he forces his team to put him somewhere else to get his bat in the lineup. He doesn’t necessarily fit in with the team philosophy of aWesome defense but he’s no slouch out there.

First base is a position, I sense, where there are a good deal of hidden runs. The 1997 Mets had an error rate of .019 with John Olerud at first base; the year before, with Butch Huskey manning the first sack, it was .026, almost 50% higher despite having many of the same people in the infield. I haven’t looked at things too closely but the scouting at the time was that Olerud was catching a lot more potential errors on ground-outs than his predecessor. I’m not tossing that out as proof, just food for, you know, thought. Just because it’s a spot where teams typically hide a bad fielder doesn’t mean you can’t save a few runs with a good one.

by Johnny Slick on Dec 20, 2009 11:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Imagining Jose Lopez as a first baseman makes me dream of Jose Lopez the second baseman.

I can put up with Lopez at second. If he doesn’t get traded, I’m fine. He’s a fine player for what he is. But moving him to first? This front office is too smart to let this happen. Right?

by Teej on Dec 20, 2009 11:46 PM PST reply actions  

Well, he has played it a little already

But yeah. Whenever we talk about converting someone to first I’m always reminded of that game a couple of years ago where they Yankees were first forced to stick Damon there for a couple of innings. A runner got on and the pitcher threw to first. Damon caught the ball, barely, and then turned towards the Yankees dugout and yelled — I saw the replay, and you can read his lips — “What the fuck are we doing?!”

Indeed.

by wandergeist on Dec 21, 2009 12:40 AM PST up reply actions  

29 games, 24 of them starts.

222 Innings.
2 Errors.
And a .994 fielding percentage.
UZR of 2.2 and an UZR/150 of 11, over a small sample size

Stats from Fangraphs and Baseball-Reference.

by chezbergrur on Dec 21, 2009 1:04 AM PST up reply actions  

It's even starker if you just look at offense

If Lopez had been a 1B last year, his .325 OBA would’ve made him third worst among qualified first basemen. He’s not great as an offensive 2B, but he’s downright lousy compared to other 1Bs. And then who plays second — someone who is enough of an upgrade over Lopez that it makes up for the upgrade you could’ve got by bringing in someone else at 1B — the easiest non-DH position to fill?

No, with the glut of 2B on the market and Lopez on a contract that has a team option in 2011 and Ackley (and Tui and even Triunfel) taking balls at 2B this year, I think we’re just stuck with him for 2010 unless Jack works even more magic than usual. And that’s not the worst thing in the world, considering how cheap he is.

by wandergeist on Dec 20, 2009 11:50 PM PST reply actions  

The only way Lopez plays 1B is if injuries take a toll on the team

I’m ok with him logging 10 games at 1B if we sign an injury risk like Branyan but otherwise putting Lopez at 1B for extended periods is crazy.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 20, 2009 11:52 PM PST reply actions  

So you'd rather have him as a +0 glove and a crappy hitter as a DH?

Lopez’s wOBA is about the same as Griffey’s. In other words, he’d be a ~0 WAR DH.

Moving Lopez down the defensive spectrum to 1B OR DH is a bad idea, unless he takes off as a hitter and loses value defensively, the former of which is questionable at best.

by eponymous_coward on Dec 21, 2009 12:57 AM PST up reply actions  

I'd rather you not make lazy statements

As a quick glance at Fangraphs shows that he’s been exceptional so far when playing 1B.

by CMC_Stags on Dec 21, 2009 9:33 AM PST up reply actions  

Except he's still be a horrific hitter at 1B

Tyler’s statement is only lazy in that he didn’t think about it very much, the same way you might accuse me of a lazy statement when I say “I don’t want to jump off that cliff” without giving the idea much thought.

by seattlebruin on Dec 21, 2009 9:42 AM PST up reply actions  

I think Tyler is making a hyperbolic statement saying that the idea of playing Lopez at 1B is such a bad idea, we might as well completely tank his v alue by playing him at DH

again, hyperbolic statements do not necessarily indicate true facts or opinions, but instead are exaggerations meant in this case to show how stupid this idea really is.

by seattlebruin on Dec 21, 2009 9:47 AM PST up reply actions  

Thanks for clarifying for me.

I was attempting to comment on the absolute waste of resources this idea would be. I meant to say this with an ironic tone.

by MT Olson on Dec 21, 2009 12:26 PM PST up reply actions  

You don't think that your estimation of how many runs Lopez will improve at first is a little too small?

The positional adjustments are based on how well defenders have performed historically when they switched positions. The mean value of that is 15 runs, yet you only have Lopez improving by 6. That seems a little too low.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 21, 2009 12:57 AM PST reply actions  

I don't think that's exactly how it works.

Otherwise a shortstop put at first base would be a +20 run defender, and a catcher moved to first base would be a +25 run defender.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Dec 21, 2009 1:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Catchers are special

I don’t recall how the catcher positional adjustment is created.

I actually think that most SS would be about 20 runs better than an average first baseman at the position. It’s not a crazy thing to say. Look at how well a good center fielder looks when he moves over to a corner: +15-20 runs.

by philosofool on Dec 21, 2009 11:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Tango's positional adjustments

assume the same number of opportunities, although in reality 1B is not going to get the same number of opps. as 2B. And even the best fielding 1st baseman are only 5-10 UZR a year, so projecting him higher than that would be saying he would be an elite fielder.

by ChristopherA on Dec 21, 2009 1:28 AM PST up reply actions  

1B who are better than 10 runs/season

typically get moved to another position because their defensive skills are wasted at 1B. That’s why you don’t see more +15 run 1Bs.

by philosofool on Dec 21, 2009 11:37 AM PST up reply actions  

Is it fair to say that Bavasi

signing Lopez to such a cheap deal was one of his best achievements? Like an island of hope in the sea of misery?

by Omerta on Dec 21, 2009 2:46 AM PST reply actions  

The equation as I see it

(I posted something very similar to this at USSMariner)

I’m not sure why we are looking at Lopez at 1B in isolation. I’m convinced that is a bad decision (by your account, we lose 1 WAR). But shouldn’t we also include why he would be moving. If he moves to add 3WAR somewhere else, doesn’t that still make it a good move (considering the lack of trade market for him).

An Example (I’m not advocating one or the other, just using this as an example, because it’s players and price tags we know or can estimate)

Infield #1:
1B – Branyan
2B – Lopez
SS – Wilson
3B – Figgins

Infield #2:
1B – Lopez
2B – Figgins
SS – Wilson
3B – Beltre
It seems to me that the equation is simple:

[defensive increase of Figgins at 2B] + [defensive increase of Beltre at 3B] + [defensive difference of Branyan to Lopez (+or-)] + [batting difference of Branyan to Beltre] > [price of Beltre over Branyan]

If the first part of that equation is more valuable than the cost of Beltre then it’s a smart move. You can interchange Beltre and Branyan for any players you want.

Now, it’s entirely possible that this isn’t worth it. As I understand it, Beltre would cost about $5 million more than Branyan. Additionally, he would be the rest of our budget (that means no Randy Johnson etc.).

But I’m not sure why we are looking at the WAR of Lopez alone, and not the WAR of the entire infield taken together.

by Snuffleupagus on Dec 21, 2009 5:33 AM PST reply actions  

or is it an assumption?

that if Lopez’s relative value drops 1WAR then it isn’t something we can overcome at another infield position?

by Snuffleupagus on Dec 21, 2009 5:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Probably more like if we move him to first and he's worth 1 WAR, what was the point of moving him to first when we could have just played Carp who is worth pretty much the same.

Or any number of below average hitting first baseman that can be had fairly easily in this market. It’s a complete waste of Lopez’s value in addition to also lowering his trade value. It’d just be a huge waste of an asset, like making Hanley Ramirez a DH.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Dec 21, 2009 6:01 AM PST up reply actions  

but shouldn't it be total value

I get that it would be an underutilized asset. that makes sense. But if we can compensate for that underutilization elsewhere, then it could still be a net plus. Again, I’m not saying we can, I’m just saying that it seems like we should discuss the entire picture.

Moving Hanley Ramirez to DH would be a waste, true. But if you had an amazing shortstop, it’s a move that could still make your team better on the whole.

Because the 2B trade market seems so bad, it just seems possible that we would get more value out of Lopez by moving him than by trading him.

To answer your question, the point of moving Lopez to first would be to free up space to be better somewhere else in the infield. If the improvement elsewhere in the infield compensates for the decrease in Lopez’s value, then it is a net positive. That’s what I don’t get, moving to Lopez to 1B can’t be viewed in isolation.

Again, I could see it not being a net positive. We’re not the Yankees or Red Sox, we can’t afford to under utilize assets, and want to maximize value. But it still seems like we have to view it as a whole in order to make the decision.

Let me put it another way. Lets say that Beltre signed with us for $1 million (absurd on purpose). Then moving Lopez to 1B to make room would make sense. The deal we’d be getting on Beltre would more than compensate for the loss of moving Lopez. the point of this ridiculous scenario is that there could be a situation where moving him would make us a better team.

Is the point that all of these scenarios would still result in trading Lopez being the smart move, even with the depressed market?

by Snuffleupagus on Dec 21, 2009 7:01 AM PST up reply actions  

Moving Lopez to first and signing a free agent 2B

is less than a half win improvement on DFA’ing Jose Lopez and singing a free agent 2B.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 21, 2009 8:14 AM PST up reply actions  

this all makes sense

(and thanks to Mathew and gumbostu below, who also make sense)

I guess the point is that trading him will always make sense before moving him to 1B would. And the only time that would make sense is if we got an amazing deal at 2B or 3B that we’re not going to get.

I think I was just fantasizing about a Beltre, Wilson, Figgins infield.

by Snuffleupagus on Dec 21, 2009 8:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Because
some future posts are going to build off this concept and it’s bound to come up in the future

And because it’s perfectly fine to view it in isolation because we have internal options already. No matter what you are moving Lopez for, he’d project to be about a quarter, maybe half, win better than Carp/Hannahan. You’d be paying roughly 2.1 million for that improvement.

If the goal was to maximize wins only, then sure, you can make a case for that, but there’s a budget and paying at best the market rate for wins and more likely double the market rate for wins is a really poor way to get better.

by Matthew on Dec 21, 2009 8:10 AM PST up reply actions  

I think

That because the small relative difference between Lopez at first vs. the other in-house candidates, moving him would always make sense, even in this depressed market. I think any return we do receive on Lopez would make up for that .5 WAR difference between Lopez and, say Carp. Maybe I’m completely out of touch with the trade market, but I’d have to believe we could flip Lopez for a reliever or spare part that can contribute at least that.

by gumbostu on Dec 21, 2009 8:07 AM PST reply actions  

The market for 2B right now is so depressed it might be in the teams best interests just to keep him this year

Unless Jack works some sort of miraculous fleecing again or packages him in a major trade it seems unlikely we’re going to get an adequate return on his value. Maybe that will change as the season gets closer and all these good free agent 2B are off the market, or at the deadline if he’s having another good year. But for now I wouldn’t feel great about flipping him for spare parts.

by OlSalty on Dec 21, 2009 8:25 AM PST up reply actions  

I totally agree

I’m not advocating moving him for spare parts…I was just trying to point out that if the goal is to try to maximize our talent and “win now” that trading Lopez is always going to make sense compared with moving him to 1B. Which feeds the “Jose Lopez is a bad idea at 1B” idea.

by gumbostu on Dec 21, 2009 8:42 AM PST up reply actions  

ergh

I meant to reply to the thread above sorry :(

by gumbostu on Dec 21, 2009 8:07 AM PST reply actions  

I'm kinda sad this article had to be written at all

I thought it was just common knowledge that this is a poor idea

by ManifestDestiny on Dec 21, 2009 9:29 AM PST reply actions  

Common knowledge should always be questioned

Joe Morgan is full of common knowledge.

And it’s worth having the argument laid out tidily in one place. Especially when… well, just read the first para of the post again.

by wandergeist on Dec 21, 2009 9:32 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Figgins, in 96 Defensive Games at 2B, has posted a -8.6 UZR/150

Compared to his career 8.0 UZR/150 at 3B. I realize that the 2B number has the normal small sample size warning and should regress to a number closer to his performance at 3B, but saying that he’d be an improvement over Lopez at 2B is not a valid arguement.

Especially when you consider that the seasons Figgins played most of his games at 2B (03-05) he put up vastly better UZR numbers at 3B.

by CMC_Stags on Dec 21, 2009 9:39 AM PST reply actions  

I read both of them when they were posted

Thanks.

It doesn’t change the fact that people are making assumptions about Figgins’ defensive abilities at 2B that aren’t born out by any facts.

by CMC_Stags on Dec 21, 2009 9:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Figgins has better tools for second than Lopez

If you think that a small sample UZR disproves this, then you’re in crazyland

by Graham MacAree on Dec 21, 2009 9:47 AM PST up reply actions  

Is Lopez a better fit for 3B defensively?

He’s got the arm to play SS adequately, but really lacks top-end range. Bad fit because of reflexes/instincts though?

by seattlebruin on Dec 21, 2009 9:49 AM PST up reply actions  

I think Lopez would make a ~average 3B I would think.

Figgins has the better arm, though, so I don’t think swapping them would be fruitful.

Hey everyone, Follow me on Twitter!, check out My Baseball Blog, and Last.fm me!

by lailaihei on Dec 21, 2009 9:52 AM PST up reply actions  

Also
I realize that the 2B number has the normal small sample size warning and should regress to a number closer to his performance at 3B, but saying that he’d be an improvement over Lopez at 2B is not a valid arguement.

by CMC_Stags on Dec 21, 2009 9:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Figgins performance at 3B over the much larger sample

and the historic examples we have of players moving from 3B to 2B offer far more weight about Figgins’ likely ability to play 2B than his stats from 96 games.

Please, everyone, stop using inadequate sample size UZR and then just dismissing criticisms because you said it was a small sample. If you know it’s a useless sample, then don’t use it in the first place.

by Matthew on Dec 21, 2009 10:51 AM PST up reply actions   3 recs

96 games for UZR purposes is pretty much like judging a hitter after a single month

And knowing that there is a great deal of variation in baseball it’s basically meaningless. You can’t write someone off for that, or use it in an argument.

by OlSalty on Dec 21, 2009 9:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Also Lopez has said he doesn't want to play first.

We already have a malcontent trouble maker on the team, let’s not tempt fate, am I right?

On a serious note, seems like there’d be more value in trading Lopez for a MiLB relief prospect than playing him at first. I’m sure that even in this market we’d be able to trade him for a relief prospect, right?

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 21, 2009 9:53 AM PST reply actions  

One possible solution...

Is to use Figgins as a supersub, play him at second, third, and left 2 days of the week apiece, sort of how Mark McLemore was used only more frequently. I don’t know if Chomsky Fogginess would sign off on that though.

by Johnny Slick on Dec 21, 2009 10:10 AM PST via mobile reply actions  

You need a third baseman to do that though

and that also kills a bench spot because you essentially have ten regulars at that point. If you do that, probably can’t bring Langerhans back

by seattlebruin on Dec 21, 2009 10:11 AM PST up reply actions  

Right. That would involve Beltre being brought back.

And Figgins’ PAs would then come at the expense of Beltre, Lopez, and Saunders, which may not be optimal. The bigger deal, I think, is how Figgins would accept it. I know that this is sort of what he did from 2003-2005 for the Halos but he’s an entrenched regular now, not a guy who would do anything to stay in the majors. He also may feel that having to keep pace at several defensive positions would hurt his ability to hit.

by Johnny Slick on Dec 21, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions  

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