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Around SBN: Pacquiao vs Bradley: Potential Undercard Fighters

J.J. Hardy to the Twins

Carlos Gomez is the return. More later.

[Source]

Later: Hardy is a guy that we'd all been hoping that the Mariners would make a play on this offseason to address the shortstop position, so it's a bit of a shame that he's been taken off the table so early and for what appears to be a fairly low price - one we doubtless could have paid. Gomez is a slightly below average centrefielder for league minimum, and the Brewers had top prospect Alcides Escobar waiting in the wings and a hole in CF with the departure of Mike Cameron, but I have a hard time thinking we couldn't have beaten that price.

In terms of money/talent, the deal makes a good amount of sense for both sides. The Twins get a big upgrade at shortstop, the Brewers deal from depth to cover a weak position (albeit not that well) for free, and have some more money to play with in free agency. As the return for a guy like Hardy, Gomez the talent is rather underwhelming, but the financial flexibility he provides is useful. Could/should the Brewers have gotten more for him? Yes. But they didn't, which is where this deal becomes weird from the Milwaukee side. They had an asset which had less value to them than to the rest of the league, but they sold him for his value to them rather than anyone else's, which is not the best trading strategy in the world.

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This sucks :(

Now we have to overpay an all-glove, no bat SS

by ManifestDestiny on Nov 6, 2009 9:11 AM PST reply actions  

It seems teams have jumped early on the trade wagon

Does this mean teams are going to back off the FA market? Maybe the M’s will be able to find some bargains.

by Fan since Rupert Jones on Nov 6, 2009 9:18 AM PST reply actions  

Trusting Z...

…it’s possible Zduriencik didn’t want Hardy for whatever reason.

SHOW FiFi THE MONEY!!!!

by PositivePaul on Nov 6, 2009 9:18 AM PST reply actions  

It's possible that there just wasn't a trade that could be worked out between the teams

It looks like the Brewers were willing to get less talent, but in CF form than they wanted in pitching from us.

by Graham MacAree on Nov 6, 2009 9:21 AM PST up reply actions  

Exactly...

Not that he didn’t WANT Hardy per se, but the whole “not wanting him at ‘x’ price” thing comes into play certainly…

SHOW FiFi THE MONEY!!!!

by PositivePaul on Nov 6, 2009 9:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Sure. I didn't really want him at the prices I was hearing.

Now if I had a spare Carlos Gomez and the Brewers were willing to bite, it’s a different story.

by Graham MacAree on Nov 6, 2009 9:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Like here?

http://sodomojo.com/

by .Taylor on Nov 6, 2009 9:29 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm trying to figure out what that would be (Carrera + Lowe +?)

but what’s done is done, so I guess it doesn’t matter.

Also, just as aside, people talk about Hardy as a former one of the “best young players in baseball” or whatever…. look how far Gomez has fallen. 2.3 WAR player to part-timer to “Well, if Span is ever eaten by wolves…” to trade bait.
And it looks like Gomez was a bit unlucky last year; he might bounce back into the .290-.295 wOBA range, which, now that I look at it, is still deeply shitty.

by marc w on Nov 6, 2009 9:39 AM PST up reply actions  

In terms of talent going back and forth the deal is fine for the Brewers

In terms of what talent they should have been able to get for a guy like Hardy it’s really odd. Seems like they didn’t make the most of their opportunity.

by Graham MacAree on Nov 6, 2009 9:42 AM PST up reply actions  

This is just setting the stage

For a Brandon Morrow+ for Mat Gamel acquisition and shifting Tui over to short….

right? Please?

by ManifestDestiny on Nov 6, 2009 9:38 AM PST reply actions  

Well that sucks.

FUCK THE ANGELS! FUCK THE ANGELS! FUCK THE ANGELS!

by Goose on Nov 6, 2009 9:47 AM PST reply actions  

This is a mild disappointment

I want to poop at your house - Thingray

by tootthekazoo on Nov 6, 2009 10:02 AM PST reply actions  

Huh.

I sort of had the idea that guys like Gomez were all over the league as fourth outfielders. I mean, does Gomez have anything over Endy Chavez other than two ACLs?

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Nov 6, 2009 10:16 AM PST reply actions  

That said

I would much rather have Hardy + freely-available 4th OF than Gomez.

by Jeff Sullivan on Nov 6, 2009 10:21 AM PST up reply actions  

It's really Gomez and Escobar though

You can’t get around that from the Brewer’s perspective. It’s just that they didn’t leverage Hardy nearly as well as they should have.

by Graham MacAree on Nov 6, 2009 10:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Sort of what I'm driving at

although there could well be something I don’t know about Hardy’s game, ie some kind of nagging wrist injury thats responsible for the BA decline

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Nov 6, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions  

I mean, it's what?

A 1 WAR downgrade at short with a 1 WAR upgrade at CF, saving several million dollars in the process? That all balances for Milwaukee.

by Graham MacAree on Nov 6, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions  

Okey

but it’s not about breaking even, right? its about getting the most for your buck.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Nov 6, 2009 10:25 AM PST up reply actions  

Okay, given a choice of Gomez or Chavez I might go Gomez given these considerations

but a choice of Chavez plus Hardy v Gomez? I mean, maybe Chavez wasn’t a

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Nov 6, 2009 10:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Look at the good news

Now we can come up with a new man crush.

Carlos Silvelite

by OceanBird on Nov 6, 2009 10:25 AM PST reply actions  

Two fun comparisons

Mine: Carlos Gomez isn’t a substantially better return for two years of Hardy than we got for two months of Jarrod Washburn

Dave’s: Gomez is basically Tony Gwynn Jr., who Milwaukee traded for Jody Gerut

by Jeff Sullivan on Nov 6, 2009 10:33 AM PST reply actions  

So maybe we should start calling about Reid Brignac?

I can accept Wilson, but I’d really rather not have to.

by BrettJMiller on Nov 6, 2009 10:41 AM PST reply actions  

They moved the rec button over.

I’ve accidentally flagged about 10 comments in the past three days.

by Teej on Nov 6, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Same. xxx

I was at Shea for the Felix-Slam!
Personal M's record: 5-4.

by EnglishMariner on Nov 6, 2009 11:09 AM PST up reply actions  

It's written in the Old Testament.

Ye shall move to Florida when ye attaineth 65 years of age.

http://sodomojo.com/

by .Taylor on Nov 8, 2009 4:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, crap.

Does this mean we pick up Wilson’s option? Or that that was the front offices plan all along considering they didn’t match this offer?

by OlSalty on Nov 6, 2009 11:07 AM PST reply actions  

Looking at the how-to-succeed-as-an-aggressive-hitter points from the Lopez post

(1) Gomez has a below-average contact rate

(2) Gomez does run well

(3) Gomez does not really put the ball on the ground

(4) Gomez doesn’t have any power

Carlos Gomez is fucked.

by Jeff Sullivan on Nov 6, 2009 11:12 AM PST reply actions  

What are you talking about?

Of course Gomez has power.

Batted .393/.614/.464 for 2009 Diablos, #5 in OBP for PSSBL Rocky Division.

by Two Rs and Two Ls on Nov 6, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

I don't think that Gomez is necessarily fucked

He stands a good chance at being a bad hitter, but if you look at what Torii Hunter was doing at the same age, you might have predicted that Hunter would be fucked. Something like .260/.310/.410 isn’t really out of the question (it’s also not out of line with his minor league performance) and isn’t all that different from what J.J. Hardy has done. Obviously more of a risk since Hardy has already shown he can do it, but he is also under team control for longer and takes up less payroll.

I would assume that the Brewers think that if they instruct Gomez to stop bunting so much, when given a chance to swing away 4 times a day, he might actually improve. I wouldn’t be surprised if Gomez has more power than Delmon Young when everything is said and done, though that is a pretty low bar in and of itself.

by ubelmann on Nov 7, 2009 7:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Getting traded from Minnesota to Milwaukee, and vice versa, is kind of hilarious

Hopefully Gomez and Hardy didn’t have high hopes for going someplace warm.

by Manzanillos Cup on Nov 6, 2009 12:23 PM PST reply actions  

Jack Z

Drafted Hardy, and like me, probably felt that he greatly outperformed what his abilities were offensively in 07 and 08. Add to it that the ankle injury he had in 2005 or 06 (cant remember) greatly reduced his value as a SS. His range is awful, but his glove is solid and he has a plus arm.

My guess is that he didnt want to part with a guy like Morrow, who has a good upside still, for a guy who may not be as bad as he was this year, but will never be as good as he was in 07-08. He probably felt it was a wash to take on Wilson’s 2 WAR vs Hardy’s.

If you think that UZR is something that tells you that Hardy is some sort of elite SS, it also states that Wilson is above average. Hardy’s D #’s are greatly inflated because of defensive positioning, being at the right place at the right time (a lot), not because he has inflated ability.

The M’s would be better off trying to go out and sign Mat Holliday and get WAR that way and sticking with Wilson, or even signing Hideke Matsui as a DH, than having gone after Hardy. There’s a couple of reason’s he is not now a Mariner: Jack Z knows what he was dealing with, and Doug Melvin greatly overestimated Hardy’s worth.

by backtocali on Nov 7, 2009 5:43 PM PST reply actions  

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