On Aroldis Chapman
Guess I should talk about this, since the Mariners seem to be showing considerable interest. I understand I'm late to the party, but then I never expected that the M's would still be hovering around at this point in the sweepstakes.
It's easy to see why Chapman's getting so much attention. Though Major League scouts haven't seen him that much and he hasn't thrown a lot against quality competition, just watching what comes out of his arm for one inning against anyone tells you pretty much everything you need to know. Just 21, he's a lefty who sits in the mid-90s and has the capability to touch triple digits with his fastball, and the slider he flashed in the WBC had a wicked amount of horizontal movement. Chapman's stuff - just his pure stuff - is top-notch. Anyone who can throw that kind of fastball and that kind of slider and mix them with the occasional change, curve or split is going to open some eyes. Though raw, Chapman comes with incredible, virtually limitless upside.
Which isn't to say that the downside isn't there. The big mark against Chapman is that his command sucks. I don't know if his control sucks, but as far as hitting his spot is concerned...he can't be much fun in batting practice. Poor command diminishes the value of even elite-level stuff. Beyond that, his secondary pitches are numerous but unconvincing, he has minimal experience against disciplined bats, a lot of people have already pegged him as a future reliever, and there are questions surrounding his maturity.
We shouldn't oversell all that, though. If it weren't for the flaws, Chapman would be the best pitcher on the planet. His age and background work as points in his favor, as he still has a lot of room to develop, especially on the watch of some of the best instructors in the world. His command should get at least a little bit better as Major League coaches work on his delivery. And I don't much care that there are pictures of him hanging out in what looks like a strip club, since he's the equivalent of a college freshman in terms of his experience with freedom. He may be a little immature, and he may be known for pouting on the mound when he doesn't get a call, but, again, he's 21. Felix used to whine a lot, too.
Chapman, clearly, is a quality prospect. He is by no means a guarantee. What he is right now is sort of the equivalent of the old, bad Matt Thornton. There's a chance he may never be more than that. He might always survive on two pitches and struggle to find the zone. But remember that Thornton figured it out, and Chapman's still the definition of 'raw'. His upside is what makes him valuable, and his upside is huge. There's a reason why a lot of the best organizations in baseball are in on this guy.
What makes the situation dicey is that Chapman wants to get paid. A lot. Or at least his agent does. The numbers being floated around are $40-60m, which, as you can imagine, are separating the serious courters from the casual ones, and the serious courters with money from the serious courters without it. $40-60m is an awful lot of money. At that kind of desired cost, he blows away other international free agents and becomes a big-time prize with big-time risk. The team that ends up landing him is gonna have to be damn sure they know what they're doing.
So the obvious question is, do I think Chapman's worth what he wants? To which my answer is, I don't know. You can't say he should lower his asking price to something more in line with that of a typical high draft pick, because Chapman isn't a draft pick - he's a free agent. He can ask for a ton of money because he knows there's a ton of demand, and there's a ton of demand because he packs a ton of talent. I don't know how much that talent is worth. I've seen very little of him, and the lack of experience against advanced competition makes him difficult to project. What I would suggest in a case like this is that you trust that, no matter what they decide, the Mariners know what they're doing. If they decide Chapman's worth a bid, go with it. If they decide he isn't, go with it. The whole appeal of these guys is that they're better at talent evaluation than most of the world, and "most of the world" includes you and me, so this is one of those times where I'm happy to defer to the people in charge.
Let's say, though, that the M's do decide to make Chapman an offer. Then what happens? For him to sign here, I think one of three things would have to happen:
(1) Chapman weighs his presumably similar offers and chooses the M's over the competition
(2) The M's knowingly makes an inflated offer in order to sweeten their standing
(3) The M's see something other teams don't, something positive, and offer Chapman a higher contract as a result of perceiving him as more valuable than the other teams
#1 seems unlikely to me. If Chapman gets a handful of offers from places like Boston, New York, Seattle, and others, I don't think he picks to settle in the northwest. Seattle's a very difficult place for someone in Chapman's situation to live, and it's also not an organization that would put him in the best position to win. Boston and New York in particular are both more successful and far less isolated.
#2 is possible, but I also think it's unlikely, because when you have a guy who's already as big a risk as Chapman, I don't think a front office such as the one we have in power would put itself out there any more than it has to. The team will probably look at Chapman, assign a value, and go forward with that value, and if it isn't high enough, then so be it. To offer him more than that value is worth would be to increase the risk while leaving the reward.
#3 is probably the most likely of the options. The Mariners' scout(s) might see something about Chapman that makes them more confident in him than other organizations, and that confidence would be reflected in the contract offer. And that could make Seattle the favorite. The issue, though, is that with so much publicity and so many eyes, it's hard to imagine that the M's would see something that goes undetected by everyone else.
All in all, though the M's are in on Aroldis Chapman, and though they appear to be serious, from where I sit, they don't have very good odds. While the Mariners are a solid organization on the rise, they just can't compete with the Red Sox and Yankees in a lot of areas which Chapman would find appealing. Throw in that there are other organizations aside from these three getting involved and that only reduces our odds even further. So, although there's a chance, I'd be surprised. Shocked, even. And, hey, maybe that's a good thing. He's a risky son of a bitch.
Personally, what I find to be most interesting about all this is that, for the M's to be involved, they have to know that Chapman's going to cost a lot. And for the M's to be involved despite that knowledge means that they're prepared to offer Chapman a lot of money if they determine that he's worth it. I don't buy into the suggestion that Chapman would be brought in to "replace" Felix Hernandez for one minute, but I do have to wonder what this means as far as the Felix negotiations are concerned. If the M's are potentially willing to give a lot of money to a 21 year old Cuban with minimal experience, then they'd be willing to give a lot of money to a 23 year old who's proven himself to be one of the best pitchers in baseball, right? You can't be open to taking an expensive risk at one point and closed off to taking an expensive risk the next, can you? If you can, why?
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34 comments
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Comments
God we could have had Felix, Chapman AND Strasburg
by seattlebruin on Nov 3, 2009 2:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Morrow for opening day!
The Yankees suck-a-doodle-doo!
by JamMasterJesus on Nov 3, 2009 2:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Morrow is far from equal to Felix or Strasburg.
I would expect an LL mod & writer for FanGraphs to understand this.
by katal on Nov 3, 2009 5:58 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
If we took Strasburg, we probably wouldn't be looking at Chapman.
I can’t picture the M’s front office spending the $15 mil it took the Nats to sign Strasburg, following it with the $40-60 million that Chapman’s asking for, then spending however much it’s going to cost to extend Felix.
by skjes on Nov 3, 2009 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope you mean at the price he would command, because not wanting Chapm... etc.
The risk is insane, but at age 20, Tim Lincecum was a guy with a big-time fastball and next to no command (BB/9 over 6 at UW). Lincecum was unable to command more than about $30,000 in potential signing bonus at the time, so… uh, yeah.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Chapman gets a hell of a lot less than his agent is talking about, and if that’s the case, I’m glad the M’s are in the conversation. Chapman has more leverage than Lincecum did by far, but there’s no way he’s an order of magnitude more valuable than Ynoa was a year or two ago or what have you. The question is where the inflection point is. What’s your thought on that? $15-20? $10-15? $10?
I’d do $15-20.
by marc w on Nov 3, 2009 3:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ynoa was 16
They’re not really comparable prospects.
by davidcameron on Nov 3, 2009 8:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, but it goes both ways
Chapman is closer to where Lincecum was – a guy who has electric stuff, no command, and who has made it through several seasons without breaking down. Ynoa didn’t manage that.
Plus, some smart fella at USSM used to talk about how age wasn’t as relevant for pitching prospects. If we’re just talking pure stuff, does (or, more accurately, DID) Ynoa have what Chapman does? I don’t know, and I should make that clear. I’m just a guy going off a WBC appearance and the interwebz. I understand if a team wants to spend more – even considerably more – on Chapman. But clearly, there’s a point at which every team says no thanks and signs the next three Ynoa’s. I’m not sure what that point is, and would love to hear your thoughts on the matter.
by marc w on Nov 3, 2009 11:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is just a guess
But I think the size of the deal he gets is going to vary drastically if he can void the deal to go to arbitration after three years of service time. I think if he gets that clause he will sign for around 18 million. If he doesn’t then I think he will sign for around 26 million. In both cases I would expect about 80% of the cash to be in a signing bonus (probably two or three installments.) I also expect him to get a major league deal
Don't believe the lies Bill!!!! look at the sparkly ERA!!! Sparkly, Sparkly!!! - McCovey Chronicles
by Trenchtown on Nov 3, 2009 4:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I remember quite a few agents going on last year about how big of an offer they were expecting for their clients.
Of course, they ended up accepting much less. I’m sure it will be the same for Chapman.
When Jose Contreras came to America, he did so in the same age of bloated contracts that we see today. He was also older and more of a known quantity. If he “only” received ~$30M then it’s hard to see Chapman getting much more than that.
by katal on Nov 3, 2009 6:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Boras was talking about $50 million for Strasburg and got $15M
So I wouldn’t be surprised to see the same thing happen here. The agents mention $ figures far greater than what they will actually get, to try and get the bids a bit closer to that value.
by ARock on Nov 3, 2009 6:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Still a different story.
Chapman can negotiate with anybody. Strasburg and Boras could not. The “threat” of holding out a year was not enough to cancel out the exclusivity the Nationals enjoyed.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Nov 3, 2009 7:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So how do you know....
how much money it’s going to take to get him?
by nathaniel dawson on Nov 3, 2009 9:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
That was meant for OlSalty
Reply fail
by nathaniel dawson on Nov 3, 2009 11:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
If he ends up being cheap, that'd be swell
But all indications at this point are that he is going to cost a lot of money. And he’s not worth anywhere in the ballpark of what he’s asking for. Maybe the Yankees and Red Sox have wised up after the Igawa and Matsuzaka (heh) fiascos and won’t just throw money at him willy nilly but fiscal responsibility doesn’t seem to be their modus operandi.
by OlSalty on Nov 4, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, isn't that nice?
Reply’s not working at all for me. Some bug with the new layout?
by nathaniel dawson on Nov 3, 2009 11:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Birds in hand
Whatever he goes for would be better spent on known qualities for the 2010 team or more time with Felix.
by maqman on Nov 4, 2009 2:25 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
How do you know
if the money for Chanpman would be coming from the same place that an extension for Felix would be coming from? And even if it does come from the same place, if the Mariners were to sign Felix to an extension, there would still be plenty of money left in the payroll budget to sign birds that aren’t in hand, whether they be international free agents or Major League free agents.
Still can’t get that reply button to work for me. I must have bad Karma today.
by nathaniel dawson on Nov 4, 2009 3:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Chapman will be demanding a Major League contract so they both come from
the money budgeted for the Major League roster’s payroll.
by Sec 108 on Nov 5, 2009 7:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How do you know that the Mariners have a budget?
by Graham on Nov 5, 2009 4:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't, but in the past they have used one so it is an assumption.
by Sec 108 on Nov 6, 2009 7:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How do you know that there was a past and you were not created fifteen seconds ago, memories and all?
by Graham on Nov 6, 2009 8:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also an assumption.
However, if what you pose is true I have a few words for whoever created me because I would like a few portions of my mental Rolodex to be a bit clearer.
by Sec 108 on Nov 6, 2009 8:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure that's what his agent will be asking for...
although it’s no guarantee that’s what he’ll get. I’d think it is likely he will.
Still, we’re only guessing about where the money would come from. We really don’t know.
As to what he’ll get, reports are his agent is asking for something like $40-60 million. If that’s what his negotiating stance is, he’s certainly going to come in for a lot less than that. Strassburg got a $15 million deal with Washington, and Strassburg is far more polished than Chapman, has been watched and scouted for 3 years in an established environment, and is much closer to the major leagues. However, Washington had great leverage in that case, being the sole club that could negotiate with Strassburg.
The previous high for an international amatuer free agent is something like……..was it $8 million? I seem to recall that, although I’m far from sure about that. That was several years ago, and I’m sure he’s going to get a lot more than that. I’d guess that he’ll end up with something like $15-20 million on a major league deal. With no opt-out clause when he gets to arbitration, cause that would be stupid. I suppose some team could go crazy after him and give him as much as 25.
Is $15-20 million too expensive for the Mariners?
by nathaniel dawson on Nov 5, 2009 4:09 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
Guess I was remembering the $8 MM per year. That might change things a little, but Contreras was a much more advanced pitcher at that time than Chapman. Much more advanced meaning that he was older, as well.
by nathaniel dawson on Nov 5, 2009 6:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

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