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Thinking About The Felix Situation - Part 1 (Emotion)

Apologies ahead of time if I kind of bounce around between points or leave some things out. I haven't planned this post. I feel like, if you're going to write a post centered on pure emotion, as little of it should be pre-meditated as is possible, so I'm just going to sit here, type, and see what happens. I already know where I want to end up. I just don't know how I'm going to get there. Onward!

So here we are, and we're facing a difficult situation. A situation I don't think any of us are realistically prepared to deal with. Felix's agent and the Mariners are going to sit down and talk extension here sometime soon, and while the King remains under team control for another two years, one gets the sense that, if the two sides can't work something out, Felix is going to find himself on the market. There's obviously no guarantee, and the team could elect to keep him around anyway, but the responsible thing to do would be to check out the offers, and the minute Zduriencik fields a proposal is the minute a Felix Hernandez trade becomes a possibility.

Forget everything that happened up to this point. Yeah, the previous regime blew it. Bill Bavasi's been gone a year and a half and he's still fucking things up. But that's a different subject. Believe me, we'll tackle that subject should it become relevant. But that's a separate post. This one's just about the emotional clouds that my brain slams together whenever it starts to think about what this particular future could have in store.

I started blogging about the Mariners late in 2003. Something like a week before Bavasi was hired. The front office screwed things up. The team was terrible. The M's were out of the race like two weeks in and by midseason the only things I really and truly cared about were Ichiro's record pursuit, Justin Leone's debut, and the minor league performance of some kid named Felix Hernandez. I'd always been cautious of pitching prospects before, perfectly aware of the risks, but...maybe it was just because the team sucked and I needed something to hope for in the future, but when the guys over at USS Mariner started referring to him as King Felix and updated everyone on his progress, I bought in. 100%. If Felix Hernandez were a pool, I dove in headfirst and tried to hold my breath because the air was full of bees.

2005 came along. The front office screwed things up. The team was terrible. The M's took a little longer to drop out of the race but sure enough they disappeared and by midseason the only thing I cared about was the Major League debut of King Felix. He came up in early August for a day game start against the Tigers, and I remember exactly what I did - I was at work in a fruit fly lab, but I told my boss what was happening and he let me use his computer. I booted up MLB.tv, loaded the game, and watched the outfielders mill around without any audio from a closed circuit camera somewhere in the stands behind first base. The game wasn't actually being broadcast on television, so all anyone got to see was distant footage of Felix from a really bad angle. It was amazing.

Over the next two months, Felix would set the tone of the dialogue for the next three years. He closed out 2005 pitching as well as anybody in baseball and then spent a few seasons trying to get back to the guy that he was. From 2006 to 2008, Felix was the topic. Ichiro was still the icon and face of the franchise, but Felix was the guy everyone wanted to talk about. He was talented. Look at how talented he is! He was good. Look at how good he is! He wasn't great. Why wasn't he great? Hey Felix, be great.

Be great. It's all we ever wanted, and though many of us were plagued with impatience, in our defense, Felix was the one who decided to have that debut. It'd be one thing for Felix to have come up and struggled to harness his stuff from the get-go. But for his first two months, he was extraordinary, and it became a community project to try like hell to figure him out and get him fixed. Throw fewer fastballs. Throw fewer predictable fastballs. Use more of your slider. Use more of your changeup. Although it sounds silly, "bendy stuff!" wouldn't be an expression were it not for Felix Hernandez.

Every month brought a new reason to be optimistic and a new reason to be frustrated. We all saw the glimpses. I got one particular glimpse in person. I was there when Felix one-hit the Red Sox. Fuji TV interviewed me in the seats after the game about the Ichiro/Matsuzaka matchup and all I could talk about was Felix. I ran across half the city to get back home and it was the most invigorating run of my life. We saw Felix one-hit the Red Sox. We saw him dominate the A's. We heard him give credit to a couple blog guys after tossing a shutout. Everyone was kind of irritated that Felix hadn't yet turned into the phenom we expected, but he managed to provide enough flashes of brilliance to keep the conversation positive. It was never about being mad or annoyed. Everything about Felix - everything was hope.

And that's what he represented. For all of us. Half the reason we spent so much time talking about Felix was because he was so good, but the other half was because our team was run by a pyramid of monkeys on a surfboard and Felix was pretty much the only thing that made us feel safe and warm and a little like normal baseball fans instead of sarcastic and sullen ones. Felix was our reason to watch. I mean that. At times, he was literally our only reason to watch. When he got hurt and missed a few weeks last year - those were the emptiest weeks of baseball I've ever experienced. Anyone who stuck around for the same thing knows what I'm talking about. It was easy to take Felix's presence for granted, and though his handful of injury scares helped keep us honest a little bit, you couldn't know how dark and joyless this team would be without him until you had to experience it.

This team embarked on a fluky run at the playoffs in 2007, but outside of that month or two where we really believed, it was pretty much all Felix, all the time. Baseball is entertainment, and Felix was the guy we turned to in order to be entertained. Not because we knew he'd pitch well. If anything, the odds in any given start were that he'd probably do something stupid that got on our nerves. But because every single start of his had the potential to be a start we'd remember our entire lives. I'm never going to forget seeing him against Boston. I'm never going to forget seeing him against Oakland. And every time he took the bump and got ready to throw his first pitch of the game, it was in our heads that, hey, this could be another one of those. Or maybe something better. Every start had a chance of making history, and every start had a chance of kicking off the prime of Felix's career.

Felix's was the first Mariner jersey for which I selected a specific name. I own a bunch of Mariner jerseys. One says Ichiro, and that was by chance. One says Griffey, and that was by chance. I recently rummaged through a bag of old shit from the rafters, and one of them apparently says Moose for some reason. Two of them are blank. I chose Felix not because I already had an Ichiro, but because Felix was my guy. Felix was my favorite Mariner, Felix was the most exciting Mariner, and since jersey buying is a tricky practice, Felix was the Mariner I most wanted to stick around forever.

Really, given how often we talked about Felix, and how often we thought about Felix, and how often we looked forward to watching Felix, he's gone beyond being a baseball player to the point at which it's almost like he's family. I don't know if he's more like a son or a brother or an actor cousin you follow in the movies but never actually get to hang out with because he's so busy all the time, but the bond isn't the same sort of fan/player connection you see with anyone else. I hate using this word because it sounds retarded if you don't use it just right, but the bond between Mariner fans and Felix is a special one, one that I'm not sure you can understand if you don't share it yourself. When people come up to me and ask how the M's have been doing, I immediately start talking about Felix the way a father reaches for his wallet to show off pictures of his kids. And I know I'm not the only one. Speaking for myself, Felix only barely knows who I am, and I'd still be happy to do his chores.

2009 saw Felix finally ascend to the throne that we'd built for him. It was hope fulfilled. Everything he'd done, everything we'd said, every last experience up until now only led to this, the season in which Felix put himself together and set forth on a personal blitzkrieg of opponents. We've been through the disappointment of Clint Nageotte. We've been through the disappointment of Travis Blackley. Jeff Clement. Rett Johnson. Ryan Anderson. Bobby Madritsch. Jeremy Reed. Chris Snelling. The Mariners established a track record of having top prospects bust, so to have their absolute crown jewel break through and turn into the guy he was supposed to be - it's like this year Felix decided, okay, not only am I going to make up for all the annoying things I used to do, but I'm also going to try to make up for everyone else too. Felix blossomed, and he blossomed in such a way that, for all of the attention and all of the praise and all of the hope, each and every one of us felt rewarded. A few years ago, some people might've felt that we were being over the top. Felix's 2009 justified everything. Before, I would tell people "hey look out for Felix" and they'd say "call me when he figures it out." Now people tell me "hey that Felix is pretty good" and I get to act smug and say "yeah" under no-shit eyebrows.

2009 saw Felix blossom. He became the pitcher we'd spent the previous three seasons waiting anxiously to see. And now there's a chance we might trade him?

There's a rational, reasonable side to everything. We'll tackle that in part 2. But Felix finally put it all together and turned himself into a buzzsaw, and to think about trading him now after everything - I'm sorry, but that's fucked up. If you're the front office, how would you expect fans to react? You can't say you traded him to make the team better, because you don't trade Felix Hernandez to make the team better. You can't say you traded him to improve the team down the road, because Felix is young and the team isn't far off. And you can't say you traded him because you couldn't agree on an exension, because people will say you should've tried harder. And you should've. Under this hypothetical wherein the Mariners and Felix can't come together on a contract, it's because the Mariners didn't do enough. Felix has done everything he can. Felix has earned recognition. It's on the team to recognize him, and do so appropriately.

I think I've expressed everything that Felix means to us. At least, I should hope I have. God knows I've used enough words. There were times last year that, for a lot of us, Felix might as well have been the only thing keeping us around. The only thing supporting our faith that there has to be a light at the end of the tunnel. We've all been through so much with him, and so to come to a situation where you're given a choice, how do you not give him the money? How do you not offer him a monster contract? How do you not maybe go just a little bit beyond what makes you comfortable for the sake of retaining a player who at times just about kept the franchise alive?

Felix isn't just an excellent player. He's our excellent player, our ace, our guy who came through our system, our guy who signed with the Mariners because he didn't want to be a damn Yankee. Does that not have value? Run your calculations. Figure out how much you're supposed to pay a guy at Felix's age with Felix's performance. Is that it? Is Felix just any 23 year old with 34 starts and a 2.49 ERA? No, he's not. He's Felix Hernandez, career Seattle Mariner. Organizations survive because of the fans. Fans want franchise players and fans want continuity. Fans want Felix Hernandez. Watch the last game of the season. Listen to the ovation he gets when he leaves the mound. Better yet, go back to 2005 and watch the game he pitched against Minnesota in his home debut. Hear that? That's how much Felix has meant to us since the day he arrived, and now is not the time to see him go. I don't know if there'll ever be a time to see him go. But now - now is the time to see him stay, and stay for a while. He's great. People love him. He's 23. Felix is everything you want in a ballplayer, and there are no excuses for not ponying up what it takes to make sure he's around the next time we make the playoffs.

Trading him...it's not like it would be just any trade. Felix wouldn't be missed the way Wladimir Balentien was missed. Felix would be missed like no one you've ever seen. Felix means the world to us, and to trade him after he finally puts it together to some other team and some other fan base would just be so thoroughly and utterly devastating. Forget who we get back. That's not what this is about. This is about Felix. Who else could even begin to appreciate him for what he is? Nobody could. Nobody could appreciate Felix the way we appreciate Felix because nobody else has been through what we've been through. If some team trades for Felix, they get an ace. It's all forward-looking. Felix can do this. Felix will do this. Here, it's as much about looking back at the past as anything else. Felix was this. Felix did this. And, of course, Felix is this. We love Felix as an ace, but what makes the love meaningful, what makes the love deep is the route we've taken to get here. Trade him now and there's no overnight recovery.

And who would you even trade him to? Boston? You might as well send us all individual videos of each of our ex-girlfriends fucking Kevin Youkilis. We all know that, were Felix to find his way to the market, Boston would force its way to the top of the list, and there is nothing, literally nothing worse that I can imagine. Seeing Felix one-hit the Red Sox in Fenway's home opener is among the most cherished experiences of my life. Trade him to Boston and not only do you hurt me today, but you also go back in time and fuck with my memories.

I don't know. The Mariners are in what seems like a difficult situation, but emotionally speaking, it couldn't be easier. Pay the man. Extend him. There's no doubt in my mind that that's what I want, that that's what all of us want. A lot of people will tell you that emotion is no way to manage a roster. Those people are right. No GM should make decisions based solely on emotion. But I feel like emotion has to matter at least a little bit, and in a scenario like this, where you're dealing with a guy who's just a magnificent pitcher, that emotion puts it over the top. You pay Felix and you come out and tell the fans that this is the guy you intend to ride to a championship.

Ultimately, few peoples' fanhood depends entirely on the fate of Felix Hernandez. Baseball fans are a hardy breed, and it takes an awful lot to drive them away. Eleven years ago we traded Randy Johnson to the Astros, and then we lost Griffey, and then we lost Alex Rodriguez, and still the success of the team kept drawing people back. If the Mariners were to break off negotiations and trade Felix somewhere else, I'm sure that, eventually, almost all of us would recover. But I also know that, if the M's trade Felix Hernandez, I won't be as devoted a fan tomorrow as am I today. And that's just not a change that I'm ready to make.

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That was beautiful.

I was at the last start, and the love that Felix got and gave when he left the game was just bliss. How am I going to plan going to games next year? This year it was easy “well I’ll go to Felix day and then maybe a couple other games this series depending on who is pitching for the opposition.” But without Felix, what do I do? I’m not going to make a point going to RRS starts, even though I like him. I’m not going to make a point going to Snell starts, even though he was one of my favorites since his breakout in 2006.

Felix IS more than just a pitcher. He’s more than just an ace. He’s King Fucking Felix Hernandez, the pitcher with the nastiest stuff to ever walk this earth.

Seattle baseball is not the same without Felix Day.

by lailaihei on Oct 9, 2009 1:07 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

A motherfucking men.

On the last paragraph:

For me personally, A-Rod,Jr, RJ, and even Edgar never meant as much to me as Felix does. I started watching baseball and the Mariners in 1994, when I was 8 years old. By that time, Edgar,Jr., and RJ were already established stars. I didn’t grow up with them, they were already there. And while they meant alot to me, them emotional attachment just isn’t as strong.

And while I technically grew up with A-Rod and watched him become one of the games best players, the whole free agency thing really put me off on him for a while. And really, by the time he left, I was still a pretty common fan. I knew nothing of advanced metrics, had zero interest in the minor leagues, and had a very basic understanding of the game itself.

When Felix signed, I was just starting to expand my understanding of the game. I’d been interested in the minors for about two years and Felix was the first true mega prospect we’d had after that point. I drove up the 3 hour drive to Everett to watch him pitch in 2003. 2 years later I went to Tacoma 5 different times to watch him pitch. I got him to sign his card for me(which I still have, and it’s the only baseball card I have). I got to talk with him for over a half hour that same day(with several other people). To all my friends and family I talked up this kid. Even the ones who didn’t care about baseball.

Like Jeff, I watched his major league debut on that same CCTV camera while at work. Multiple multiple times I’ve risked my employment just to watch him pitch. I’ve blown off engagements with friends and girlfriends because they might of taken me away from him.

He’s almost like a son that I’ve watched grow up. I’ve been so proud of him this year. His happiness is my happiness. Our happiness.

I’ve heard fans of other teams talk about him. Some of them talk about how they’d love to sign him or trade for him. And I just give them the old motto. Felix is ours and you can’t have him.

I don’t care about the logic or intelligence behind trading him. I don’t. Anything anybody here, or at USSM, or anywhere could bring up is meaningless. Saber-metrics, numbers, reason, it’s all irrelevant. I don’t care how long the contract is or how much it costs. I don’t care if it prevents us from making other moves or if his arm blows up and we are screwed because of it. I don’t care.

Jack, Tony, whoever. Please sign him. Please. Don’t trade him away and don’t let him leave. Don’t do that to me. Don’t do that to us.

FUCK THE ANGELS! FUCK THE ANGELS! FUCK THE ANGELS!

by Goose on Oct 9, 2009 1:35 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

I have a feeling we're going to dread part two, the rational argument.

I own three Mariners jerseys: Edgar Martinez, a blank no name no number, and Felix Hernandez. The blank no name no number was going to be Ichiro, but to have his name and number on the jersey was twice the price ($130 —→ $250). I am glad I got my Felix jersey before the prices skyrocketed. I won’t ever buy an authentic jersey of a player until the player establishes himself to be a longtime member of the team and has HOF potential, but I took that gamble on Felix two years ago because his potential was so mesmerizing. Whether Felix is signed to an extension, not re-signed, or is traded for a King’s ransom this offseason, I will never regret buying his jersey.

However, I sure as hell hope Felix is signed to an extension. We are in RJ, Griffey, A-Rod, and Ichiro territory when it comes to how emotionally invested the fan base to get something done. Fans will always come back, but the scars of “what might have been” never fully go away. Do we win a World Series in 2000 with Griffey? Do we win a World Series in 2001 with A-Rod? How about 2002 and 2003? When looking at the RJ haul of prospects, trading Felix is surely an acceptable alternative, but not one I want to see happen.

by Wilder. on Oct 9, 2009 1:44 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

"career Seattle Mariner"

I was lucky to have a seat about 10 rows up behind the plate for this game – Felix essentially held that game together whilst the offence could not string one up in a month of Sundays.

I have the misfortune of never knowing what it was like to follow a Mariners ballclub with Randy Johnson, Griffey v1.0 or A-Rod. I haven’t seen it atop the AL West before and certainly not winning 116 games in one season or in the playoffs.

I have one named & numbered shirt – when I stopped by to plunder the team store back in May there was no alternative. There’s one guy above all that motivates me to disrupt my body clock and watch baseball.

Is Felix just any 23 year old with 34 starts and a 2.49 ERA? No, he’s not. He’s Felix Hernandez, career Seattle Mariner.

For me, this is the hook. I fell in love with baseball in 2006 and with the M’s in 2007 so I have no sentiment for pre-2006 Mariners. I can’t come up with a similie – the Mariners without Felix wouldn’t be like anything else without something else, it’s literally beyond comparison in the context of my baseball world.

Felix, to me, is the life of this franchise’s hopes of winning in the next 3-5 years. Anything else (an injury or a trade) has the two-pronged effect of cutting the heart out of my Seattle Mariners and also harming the next five years of baseball, in my mind at least.

by MarkE on Oct 9, 2009 2:18 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Jeff Sullivan...

Tapping the pulse of the fan base one word at a time.

I left for years after Griffey was dealt. I really didn’t even enjoy the 2001 season because I was still trying to decide if I should become a Reds fan. I came back eventually, but it wasn’t until Felix that I began to feel that same exhilirated rush I used to have whenever Griffey would do something amazing. It wasn’t until Felix that I really began to love the Mariners again. Trade him, and I’m sure I’ll find my way back eventually. But my baseball heart is going to flatline for a while.

Why in the world does fandom have to have the equivalent of a horrible break-up with the best girl you’ve ever known?

by Bodhizefa on Oct 9, 2009 2:20 AM PDT via mobile reply actions   0 recs

As I've been saying over at USSM

I’m on the “trade him if the deal makes sense” side of this.

I want success. I want SUSTAINED success. I want a team where I’m not constantly hearing about barely scraping into the playoffs almost 15 years ago now as if it was a World Series victory.

If trading Felix is the way to do that? Then trade him, yesterday. And trading Felix could really transform this franchise in a way that very few teams have an opportunity to transform themselves.

But then again, I’m a mutant that doesn’t seem to get attached to players in the way that a lot of people do.

by Jeff Nye on Oct 9, 2009 2:41 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Jeff Sullivan's post here sums up why I roll my virtual eyes at you over on USSM when you post things like this

Don’t agree with what you say, defend to the death your right to say it, blah-di-flippin-blah, but at this point there is no theoretical Felix trade that could make up for his value.

by Spoomeister on Oct 9, 2009 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm on this boat, with the added restriction that he be traded to the NL.

After Johnson, Griffey, and A-Rod, I’ve become OK with the loss of our superstars. But damn, I hate seeing them beat the crap out of us afterward.

by xero3k on Oct 9, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But tell me it wasn't satisfying watching Kaz Sasaki strike out A-Rod

to end several ballgames in 2001 (including win #116).

Batted .393/.614/.464 for 2009 Diablos, #5 in OBP for PSSBL Rocky Division.

by Two Rs and Two Ls on Oct 9, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But A-Rod was an assbag. Felix is not.

Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.

p.s. fuck you angels

by InSpokane on Oct 9, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jeff, you summed up my feelings exactly...

and that’s why if the M’s don’t resign Felix, I’ll be madder at a sports team that I’ve ever been and I may stop being such a fan. I can’t say I’d stop being a fan but I wouldn’t have such a passion for the M’s and probably wouldn’t go to spring training which I’ve gone to every year since I’ve been an M’s fan!

by drm1125 on Oct 9, 2009 2:58 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Being a Mariner fan since the beginning, I've seen

It all. Don’t’t get me wrong. I love Felix. Big time. To the point where it drives my family nuts. My 7 year old hates it when I wish her “Happy Felix day!” I remember the days when we would be below .500 on May 1st until the end of the year. But I love Jack Z too. I’m putting a lot a faith in him. Maybe too much. But I’m trusting in him. I would trade my brand new wife of 2 weeks to see the M’s in a world series. So Z, do what you gotta do. I hope he stays. Dear God make him stay. Okay, now I’m just rambling.

by Buckyfan on Oct 9, 2009 3:07 AM PDT via mobile reply actions   0 recs

Everyone that comments in this thread is going to be really unhappy with part 2.

Except for Jeff Nye, but he’s a mutant.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Oct 9, 2009 3:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Honestly, I'm expecting Felix to be traded, and I think I'm at peace with it.

I’d be incredibly happy if we signed him, but I doubt that Zduriencik will want to, as Dave Cameron said, bet the franchise on a pitcher’s arm, even if that pitcher is a better bet than any other pitcher in baseball. I think Zduriencik will do his best to re-sign Felix, but my gut says that Zduriencik would rather be the master of his own destiny (instead of having it be Felix’s arm). I feel (emphasis on feel) like Zduriencik would rather build for the long haul and put all his chips on scouting and player development because that’s been his great strength his whole life. Honestly, I’m okay with whicever direction he decides to go, as long as he doesn’t sit there scratching his crotch and doing nothing like Ricciardi did with Halladay. I think that means he’s likely to end up trading him for the biggest haul ever. And Felix ought to bring back the biggest haul ever for a pitcher. But we Mariner fans deserve to see Felix pitch for another 20 years, after what we’ve been through, too. Tough call.

by Decatur on Oct 9, 2009 3:50 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I also can't get over how fun it is to watch Felix get pumped

The Guti 3-run HR for example? Incredible. Few players show emotion like Felix does and its awesome.

by Fett42 on Oct 9, 2009 4:56 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

You convinced me.

I’ve been on the fence for months now about whether we should extend or trade him. Of course I love Felix – I’m a teacher by profession, and my students have already started to notice how many of their math story problems involve the activities of someone named Felix – but I’ve also dreamed of the talent-rich packages we could potentially receive from a team like LAD, Tampa, or Boston.

No more, though. You did an excellent job of restating everything we’ve been through with Felix. He has to stay.

by katal on Oct 9, 2009 6:39 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

This post made me reconsider my Ms fandom

I always thought the progression was that Edgar got me into the Ms (and baseball in general) and Ichiro cemented that baseball fandom. But then I consider how much this post maps to how I follow Felix’s starts… and that I have 2 Felix t-shirts because the first one I bought had his rookie number on it…and that my 5-year-old knows when to say “Happy Felix Day”… and, yeah.

Trading Felix would take a long time to recover from, even if the resulting team won the West the very next year.

by Spoomeister on Oct 9, 2009 7:45 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If the first year the M's didn't have Felix they went on to win the World Series

I’d be all “Felix who?” in about a millisecond.

Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.

by pdb on Oct 9, 2009 7:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

True, but that's a hypothetical

What isn’t hypothetical is that we would all much rather win with Felix on the roster then without him.

by cwel87 on Oct 9, 2009 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'd just rather win no matter who is on the roster, really

I love Felix, and watching him pitch is awesome. But if he goes, my love of the Mariners doesn’t change.

Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.

by pdb on Oct 9, 2009 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I think love of teams and players is entirely separate.

If Felix goes my love of a player is crushed, but my love of my team doesn’t change at all. While I’d be hurting with the loss of Felix I could really be happy seeing the team take amazing prospects and winning a bunch.

by Tyler Cox on Oct 9, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nor should your love of the Mariners change

I simply would enjoy winning just a little bit more if we could do it building around Felix rather then the prospects acquired in a Felix trade.

Don’t get me wrong, winning is winning. I’d go crazy if we made the playoffs, and every subsequent game won. But winning with Felix would just be a little bit sweeter to me.

by cwel87 on Oct 10, 2009 5:00 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Part of a World Series celebration is seeing your favorite players celebrate.

Yeah, I would be ecstatic with winning a World Series as a result of trading Felix, but that celebration wouldn’t be as big without Felix on the field. It pains me Edgar never won a World Series; pending retirement, same with Griffey and Ichiro. I want Felix to win a World Series and I want him to win it with the Mariners.

by Wilder. on Oct 9, 2009 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

We would have a whole 'nother season to love Gutierrez

and Aardsma and any of the new guys that Zduriencik would have to pick up in order to make a World Series run happen next year. That might make up the difference…. at least, it would for the most part.

Batted .393/.614/.464 for 2009 Diablos, #5 in OBP for PSSBL Rocky Division.

by Two Rs and Two Ls on Oct 9, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I loved Gary Payton. While Shawn Kemp had a fleeting hold on my heart (before his more firm hold on the bottle),

the Glove was always there. He had that wonderful swagger, Payton’s Alley, and the memory of the Schrempf/Hawkins/McMillan teams. While he was traded on his way down, I still associated Gary Payton with the Sonics and the Sonics with Gary Payton. The package that came back (RAY RAY), dwarfed the talent going out, and the Sonics were better for it.
I love Felix. I can identify with his growing process as we are two months apart in age. When Felix took the mound at 19, I was right there with him. Seeing him grow into his current dominance has been frustrating and therefore that much more incredible. We, as a fanbase, have earned his acedom. But if someone comes knocking with Ray Allen, I’m willing to give GMZ the benefit of the doubt.

by abender20 on Oct 9, 2009 8:18 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

That's why I feel as though the returning package would have to be so overwhelming that, if a trade were made, it would have to clearly be the right baseball decision

There’s no way the front office half-asses a potential Felix trade. Either he gets extended, or we get a ransom fit for a 23-year old King.

by cwel87 on Oct 9, 2009 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You didn't bother to read my initial post then

Why would people call for Zduriencik’s head if the move made would pretty unequivocally benefit the Mariners organization?

by cwel87 on Oct 9, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I doubt minor leaguers would be the backbreaker to a deal

As stated previously, prospects would certainly be involved, but there would have to be multiple young, high-ceiling major league talents involved in any trade for Felix. I think the general public would be angry initially, but by and large there seems to be a better understanding of these players and their value then there was back at the tail end of the 20th century.

Of course, I’d rather just have Felix. But, “if someone comes knocking with Ray Allen”, I think the aforementioned general public will embrace it by the start of the 2010 campaign.

by cwel87 on Oct 9, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm near tears

Felix is the main reason I got back into the Mariners so enthusiastically in 2006, after years of several years of indifference. My Felix jersey is the only MLB jersey I’ve ever owned. His Rainiers and AquaSox bobbleheads are the only bobbleheads I’ve ever known. I flew to Seattle when I had little money just to watch him torch the A’s on Opening Day. In the place on my desk wall where most people keep pictures of their kids, I have a full-page NYT photo portrait of Felix’s calloused hand showing his “change-up” grip.

He is the Mariners to me. Long live Mariner King Felix.

by Teej on Oct 9, 2009 9:03 AM PDT via mobile reply actions   0 recs

I'd love to see that NYT photo... is it around somewhere?

Gritty... that's the term I think of when I see Jack Wilson play. Gritty

by A Steamy Day in Cleveland on Oct 9, 2009 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry for being so late on this.

The one I have is torn out of the fantastic and short-lived sports magazine that NYT created, called Play. It was a slideshow about athletes’ hands. Here’s a link.

by Teej on Oct 20, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I want Felix to stay for the same reason I want any great player to stay.

It is not because I love him but because I love winning.

I am jealous at this point that you can all be so full of love for Felix because I cannot. It isn’t his fault either, but rather a change in me. I had my heart ripped out so many times starting as far back as 1981 watching good players leave this town for greener pastures. The last straw was Randy. I don’t know that anyone will ever captivate me the way he did and to see him leave town ruined the whole feeling connected to particular players part of fandom for me.

by Sec 108 on Oct 9, 2009 9:13 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

I love Ichiro. I love Franklin Gutierrez

Because they are truly unique and amazing baseball players.

But Felix is much more than that to me. So much of this franchise has been inexorably intertwined with his career already and he has strapped us on his back and carried us through some really awful times to the point where I just can’t imagine what this team would be like without him. I am going to be terribly sad if we end up trading him, even if we pull in the greatest haul in the history of baseball trades.

by OlSalty on Oct 9, 2009 9:49 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

At first glance, it would have to be close

But I’m in complete agreement.

I don’t want to see him go. If it eventually ends up being a trade, I will analyze it with great intrigue, and read whatever analysis would be available. But there would inevitably be some period of mourning.

by cwel87 on Oct 9, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, that totally hopeless season was 2004

2003 was actually pretty alright, at least compared to every year after it.

(Yes, I’m correcting your typo because I’ve decided not to think about a Seattle Mariners team without Felix as long as I can help it.)

by chaney on Oct 9, 2009 10:18 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Thank you for this Jeff

As much as I would want to try to get something more than draft pick compensation for Felix if we can’t re-sign him and as much as trading him now would net great value in return, probably the most value ever seen in return for one player, I cna’t stomach the thought of trading away Felix. I would be more upset then than when I was 8 and we traded Griffey for 4 nobodies. This is the sort of thing that transcends reason. We have all (or most) grown attached to Felix in his 4 1/3 years up here. It’s really hard to believe that he’s only 23 but he is. The fact that I might have to see his next 20 years with another team is upsetting and I feel like I’d’ve taken him for granted if they traded him now.

by Mariner John on Oct 9, 2009 10:29 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Well put sir.

But, there is no rational argument that would make a Felix exit hurt less.

Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.

p.s. fuck you angels

by InSpokane on Oct 9, 2009 11:37 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

My two cents.

Emotionally, I want him to stay. Rationally, well, it’s not so cut and dry. I will say, however, that I immidiately dreaded reading the responses to this because it seems whenever Jeff has a strong opinion on, well, anything, the vast majority of LL’s readers agree 1 million percent and think he is some sort of God for saying so.

Jeff, I agree with watching him blossom into an absolute world beater and feeling proud of him all the time. So I’m with you. But I can’t stand reading all these “Jeff I Love You” and “Jeff Is My Hero” responses. You guys hero-worship the guy, and it’s unhealthy. I mean, I guess that’ll happen with any blog, but at least have your own opinion about something rather than regurgitating whatever someone else says.

Now before everyone rips me and tells me I’m an idiot blah blah blah, know that I love LL and am on this site way too damn much. I’m just a big fan of independent thought and people not being sheep.

Now that I’ve said all of that, I fully expect a million responses telling me how dumb I am and to stop posting, etc etc.

by playerkyle14 on Oct 9, 2009 11:54 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Actually, it's not that fresh

it’s a parody of a rapper named Kanye West who rudely interrupted singer Taylor Swift during her VMA speech several weeks ago. It’s not original or creative, really.

I think jokes like this should be considered “dead memes” by LL.

by seattlebruin on Oct 9, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I still have no idea what Kanye even said.

But that’s because I’ve made a conscious effort not to learn because everyone already seems sick of it anyways.

by Decatur on Oct 9, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

how dumb you are, stop posting, etc etc.

Aside from your idiot digs about hero worship in a thread expressly about (Emotion), you don’t say ANYTHING beyond “Rationally, well, it’s not so cut and dry.” I just wrote an entire comment earlier in this thread where I pretty much resigned myself to Felix getting traded and made peace with it. If LL really was going to ambush anyone who expressed a non-masturbatory opinion of Felix on this thread, don’t you think they’d have bombed my comment? No one even looked twice at my comment because it was unobjectionable and unremarkable. You’re a concern troll of the worst kind. Go away.

by Decatur on Oct 9, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well

I’m not sure how I missed that post, but I did. So let me first say that I actually agree with you. I feel like he is going to be traded and I came to terms with that somewhere around August. Depending on the contract, it’ll be a very good day if he stays.

What I was more trying to point out is that you can wholeheartedly agree with someone without being a 12 year old girl who loves N Sync. I’m not singling any one particular person out, I just think as a whole, no one disagrees about anything (unless they’re responding to someone who disagrees with Jeff) and it’s kind of stupid. It happens in every ‘blog community’ though, so this is no different. I’m not trying to say these people are dumb, because obviously you guys know more about sabermetrics and stats than the vast majority of the public. Every once in a while though, disagree with something. If you honestly agree with him, cool. That’s fine. I’m not mad at people for agreeing. It’s the blind following that bothers me. The one thing that I can point to is the Adrian Beltre situation. Personally, I don’t like him very much. I realize that I’m in the minority here, and that’s fine. But if Jeff were saying Beltre was the worst player ever, would you guys be disagreeing with him, or saying “Yeah Beltre sucks, get him outta here”?

The thing I should have taken into account was the emotionality of the situation. I obviously didn’t, as it’s very apparent by all the comments. It’s much easier when you’re arguing and have stats to back it up, rather than just opinions. So, I think I was always going to lose this argument and look dumb. Again, I’m fine with that. It happens.

But if you’re really going to get upset about it then I’ll apologize. Calling me a “concern troll” and telling me to go away is very rational. I must not be a Mariner fan and I am totally uneducated because I have an opinion about something and the courage to say it to everyone.

Look, I don’t care if everyone hates me now. Getting shunned in a blog community isn’t going to end my life. It actually wouldn’t even stop me from visiting LL the 5-6 times per day that I do.

by playerkyle14 on Oct 9, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kyle, you seem to be missing the bigger point here.

Jeff is not any of our idols (except maybe for BrianL). The people who comment regularly here are, by and large, advanced analysis converts. Jeff has greatly advanced our knowledge of advanced statistics, but so have Graham and Matthew as well. It’s true that I agree with the vast majority of things Jeff says about baseball – that’s because we have similar opinions on the game.

That’s the beauty of fact-based reasoning – there’s no room to draw your own conclusion. If Jeff tells us that StatCorner thinks Beltre has been worth his contract, then Beltre has been worth his contract. There’s no debating this. It has nothing to do with Jeff. If Jeff said Beltre sucked, it would be because he was a bad player.

by seattlebruin on Oct 9, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

See, I'm fine with that.

I never meant to call people out personally. I don’t pretend to know anyone. And you are defending yourself rationally and intelligently. I’m fine with being wrong if people’s responses are more than “you’re dumb, go away douchebag”. Perhaps I need to take more time to think and see the bigger picture. So even though I’m now the smelly kid in class, I have enjoyed the banter. But for the most part, everyone has sound logic and valid reasoning, so I guess there’s nothing left for me to do than retract my previous statement. I hope you understood what I meant, as that does happen at a lot of the blogs I follow. I guess I just vastly underestimated the readers here, and for that, I apologize.

by playerkyle14 on Oct 9, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just don't assume motivations before you post and you'll be fine.

J/M/G and a lot of the regulars here have invested a ton of time making sure that the behavior you described doesn’t happen here – through seemingly pedantic things like enforcing spelling/grammar rules, for one, and through forcing people to think before they speak lest they be mocked within an inch of their internet lives. Stick around here long enough and you’ll see that this is really an exceptional group of commenters and fans, if I do say so myself.

Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.

by pdb on Oct 9, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, wait, you apologized and retracted your statement.

Good of you to do that (honest).

Still, though, I really don’t like you.

by Decatur on Oct 9, 2009 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The thing is

you don’t know anybody here, and you don’t know their motivations. Maybe they agree with Jeff because they, y’know, agree with him, and maybe over people’s time here they’ve come to think of Jeff as a friend even if they’ve never met him. You don’t know, I don’t know, and to show up here and call people “sheep” just because a lot of people agree with a position is completely to miss the point.

Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.

by pdb on Oct 9, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

well that was an awkward way to end that sentence

but my point stands – unless you know people, you don’t know their motivations.

Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.

by pdb on Oct 9, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Jose Lopez is a good example of the disagreement occuring on the blog regularly.

Some people hate him, some people love him. When it comes to opinions aound here, there are many. Even on sabermetrics people have access to the information and agree and disagree with the mods if they want to.

by Tyler Cox on Oct 9, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, Lopez isn't one of the bigger disagreements

there are the people who think he’s a solid, average regular, and the people who are scared by his bad 2007. The irrational Jose Lopez love comes from just a few for whom he happens to be their favorite player.

by seattlebruin on Oct 9, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Simpler than that,

there’s you and me and then there’s all the wrong people.

by Matthew on Oct 9, 2009 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seems like this has been dealt with well already, so I'll just add one thing -

Something that differentiates LL from most of the rest of the sports blogosphere is that so damn much of it relies on statistical fact, and the thing about statistical fact is that it leaves very little room for disagreement. I mean, we’ll have debates on the validity of defensive metrics, but outside of that…take the Beltre situation, as you bring up. Beltre frequently looks like he sucks. The facts, though, point to his being a remarkably good player. How do you disagree with that? It’s one thing you say you don’t like Beltre, and that’s fine, but with Beltre, as with probably 96% of this site’s content, I’m not really putting up opinions. The majority of what goes up here is based on statistics, and if you form an argument around the proper use of statistics, then not a lot of people are going to disagree with you, because to do so would be wrong.

As for the sense of humor or pieces like this – there’s a selection process going on where people who like the style stick around and people who don’t go away. A few weeks ago I compared Jose Lopez to a bag of peanuts. That’s stupid. A lot of people would think that’s stupid and pointless. But I found LL to be a comfortable setting for the post because I know what the community likes and dislikes. Selection is why every blog you ever read will have a community that by and large likes the people who run it.

by Jeff Sullivan on Oct 9, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was one of those who found it stupid and pointless!

However, because you posted it, it became the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Ok I’m done with this subthread now.

FUCK THE ANGELS! FUCK THE ANGELS! FUCK THE ANGELS!

by Goose on Oct 9, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
Calling me a "concern troll" and telling me to go away is very rational. I must not be a Mariner fan and I am totally uneducated because I have an opinion about something and the courage to say it to everyone.

I guess every said Kumbaya while I was gone, but I’m not gonna leave the shots you took at me unanswered. First, you ought to realize that such obnoxious passive-aggressiveness won’t endear you to many people around here.

Also, implying that I’m being irrational for calling you a concern troll is pretty damned funny.

2. concern troll: A person who posts on a blog thread, in the guise of “concern,” to disrupt dialogue or undermine morale by pointing out that posters and/or the site may be getting themselves in trouble…They point out problems that don’t really exist. The intent is to derail, stifle, control, the dialogue. It is viewed as insincere and condescending.

Seems to fit pretty well (not perfectly, but pretty well) to me.

by Decatur on Oct 9, 2009 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kyle

This may not have been the best forum for 90% of your comment, but hey, let’s address the substance of your complaint.
I think there’s more than a grain of truth in the accusation, but that means that it’s incumbent on you to come up with some well-researched, dissenting comments. I’ve often thought that we need more intelligent regulars who challenge a lot of the conclusions presented here…. so be one. Do it right, and it can really add something. A complaint that everyone’s a sycophant isn’t worth as much as a good example.

by marc w on Oct 9, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

Jeff is my hero

Jeff I love you

My Mariners blog - SodoMojo Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!

by gregrabble on Oct 9, 2009 12:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

But seriously, very well said

My Mariners blog - SodoMojo Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!

by gregrabble on Oct 9, 2009 12:16 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I remember the day I first heard of a 16 year old phenom named Felix...

from that point on I was hooked. It was obvious the kid has something special, even when his results were somewhat ordinary.

That being said I feel confident in whatever happens because GMZ is making the call and this makes me feel good, which is a damn good replacement for the warm and fuzzy way Felix makes me feel.

That being said, please god let me feel good and warm and fuzzy! Is that too much to ask?

Wherever I go, that's where I am.

by noontide on Oct 9, 2009 12:19 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

While I love Felix,

If the deal really did make sense, and would bring us to sustained winning, I would be for it. And I would be fine with the deal postponing that winning by another year, if it meant it was definitely coming. If they trade Felix, people will be hurt, but if the Mariners then win and make the playoffs, everyone will just come to love the new Mariners.

It hurt me a lot when Johnson was traded, when Griffey was traded, and when Freddy Garcia was traded (he was my favorite pitcher at that time), but winning takes the pain away. My love for the lost players just transfered to the new stars we had. ARod left us and we were all angry, but then we had Ichiro to love. If we do trade Felix, but then we win, that love for Felix will easily transfer to Gutierrez, Ackley, and whatever other great players we get.

That said, I’d only want to see Felix traded if the deal was awesome, and I’d be very happy to sign a deal this offseason. The outcome I dont want to see is us having him for two years and then losing him for just draft picks, or trading him mid-2011 for a lot less in return.

by ARock on Oct 9, 2009 12:31 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

this was so good I tweeted it.

Hope others RT it so that Jeff gets the love he deserves for this spirited, from the heart piece.

by gybmsfn on Oct 9, 2009 12:46 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Emotion is going to drive me to bad trade evaluation if there is, in fact, a Felix trade.

If the Mariners in 2010 make it to at least the ALCS, then the hypothetical trade is a success. However, if the M’s trade for four players, the prospect(s) in the deal play like Jeremy Reed and/or the major veteran piece gets hurt, the trade is almost certainly a loss.

As much as there’s the risk of Felix getting injured over the next four years, there’s also the risk of “can’t-miss” prospects flaming out and other players associated with the deal underperforming. I’m not sure there’s been a lot of discussion about this point.

Among my friends from college, hardly any of them are sports fans. I didn’t often talk about sports and/or the Mariners around them because it would have been a monologue, but if I say the words “Felix Day,” they know what that means.

Batted .393/.614/.464 for 2009 Diablos, #5 in OBP for PSSBL Rocky Division.

by Two Rs and Two Ls on Oct 9, 2009 12:59 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If you love someone, set them free...

There’s always that element. But, yeah, I get what you’re saying here.

I guess I’ve never dove full-on into the Felix lovefest, which shouldn’t surprise anyone here that knows me. But even acknowledging that I recognize how difficult it would be for the M’s to lose Felix.

I remember being this way when they traded Randy. Randy was my Felix…

Honestly, IMHO, Chuck Armstrong can a-effing-tone for the RJ mistake quite a bit by not allowing the same thing to happen with Felix, although the circumstances are a liiiiittle different – the emotion, I imagine, for you is the same as it was for me back then.

SHOW FiFi THE MONEY!!!!

by PositivePaul on Oct 9, 2009 1:00 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

This really captured what Felix has meant to me the last five years.

I’ve been an M’s fan since 1989. Most of my happiest childhood memories involve my scorecard notebook and Dave Niehaus on AM radio. I’ve seen us let go of Randy Johnson, who could very well be the best pitcher to ever play baseball. We let Ken Griffey Jr get away, who in his prime played the game more beautifully than anyone ever has. The likely future all time HR king Alex Rodriguez was ours. Three of the top ten players of all time played their early primes in Seattle within a ten year period.

Edgar and Ichiro are great, and we’ve made them our own. But Felix isn’t an Edgar/Ichiro. Felix is a Randy/Griffey/Arod.

I want to win. I want a rational, efficient front office. But I don’t want to be a Hall-of-Famer farm anymore.

And you know what else? I don’t want the M’s to luck out and get Felix on the cheap. I want him to get paid. I want him to know that this team has changed, and that we don’t fuck around when we have someone like him anymore. I’d rather trust Felix with $8m too much for 5 years too long than have that extra payroll flexibility. It’s not so much about making a statement that we’re big market or anything, it’s about giving back the fans a little bit of what they’ve missed out on. As much as I love sucking every possible win out of our dollar and sneaking into a playoff spot or even a world series, I’d love even more to be in Safeco watching Felix pitch his final game after 20 years as a Mariner.

by Manzanillos Cup on Oct 9, 2009 1:07 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Personally I'm a sucker for position players before pitchers.

But I can get on board with this sentiment, you had me at Dave Niehaus and AM radio. That last bit especially.

by Kermit. on Oct 9, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Long time reader, first time poster

This post really struck a chord with me. I’ve been through Griffey and ARod and Randy and Edgar, and they were all incredibly special players. But for some reason, I’m much more emotionally attached to Felix than any of those others (although it could just be that I’m far enough removed from the others that I’ve forgotten my attachment).

I understand the reasoning behind trading him and would no doubt eventually recover, but I really don’t want to. I want to keep driving my co-workers (in Arizona, no less) and six- and three-year-old daughters crazy by wishing them a Happy Felix Day every time his turn comes around. I want to keep trying to get out of the office as quickly as possible when he pitches on the East Cost. I want to wake up every fifth day with the hope that today I might just see something truly amazing.

So while I would get the baseball move behind a deal, it would definitely be incredibly upsetting on an emotional level. Here’s to hoping that all parties are open to fair extension!

by GJS on Oct 9, 2009 1:42 PM PDT reply actions   2 recs

Dayam...

You HAVE been blogging since 2003, haven’t you…

SHOW FiFi THE MONEY!!!!

by PositivePaul on Oct 9, 2009 2:37 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I feel like if Felix is traded, I might cry.

That’s pretty much all I have to add, but I teared up at the end of the last game, and I would probably do the same if Felix is traded. He’s the guy I talked up for all my friends, talking about how great he is. And if he were to go to another team, that would really hurt.

If he gets traded to Boston though, I am going to be pissed.

50!

by joof on Oct 9, 2009 4:46 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I will cry if Felix is signed, traded, wins or loses.

If Felix ever goes to either one on the teder toder of evil (Boston/Yankees). I might cut someone.

by mark sobba on Oct 9, 2009 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brilliant post Jeff

You outdid yourself on the part about Youk fucking our girlfriend, and my respect for you has increased so much because of your Moose jersey.

Carlos Silvelite

by OceanBird on Oct 9, 2009 9:28 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Sign Felix

Or die you monkeys.

by Poke Smot on Oct 11, 2009 2:28 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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