This Should Be Fun
by Jeff on Oct 8, 2009 7:15 PM PDT
in Miscellaneous
113 comments
Win Probability Added figures for a few St. Louis Cardinals tonight:
Brendan Ryan: -13.6%
Matt Holliday: -10.6%
Ryan Franklin: -73.7%
Ryan went 0-4 with two strikeouts and three guys left in scoring position.
Matt Holliday went 1-4 with a homer, three runners left on, and an error on a fly ball.
Ryan Franklin recorded one out, should've recorded two, walked two guys, and allowed a couple line drives.
Who do you think is going to be remembered as the goat?
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Bash the Cubs and their idiot fans is sooooo 2003. That being said, I don’t think Bartman will ever show his face in a baseball stadium anywhere again. However, you can’t dismiss his influence.
"There is no tomorrow for you, and that makes you very dangerous people."--Jimmy McGinty (Gene Hackman) The Replacements
Time is an illusion--lunch time doubly so.
by snowyman28 on Oct 9, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cultural influence or baseball influence?
Bartman didn’t botch an easy double play ball.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Oct 9, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neither
can be discounted. The idea that every team has a “Bartman” should certainly play a part, but that wouldn’t count for the Cards playing in LA. And while Bartman wasn’t the one that botched an easy double play ball, I would argue that the results of his influence on the overall atmosphere ended up influencing the play on the field.
"There is no tomorrow for you, and that makes you very dangerous people."--Jimmy McGinty (Gene Hackman) The Replacements
Time is an illusion--lunch time doubly so.
by snowyman28 on Oct 9, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think laying such an epic failure at the feet of a fan is bullshittery beyond all belief.
And I am a Cubs fan.
by Sec 108 on Oct 9, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is absolutely no way that the fan/fans/atmosphere is in any way responsible for the outcome of that game.
the guys on the field don’t even care what goes on in the stands 99.9% of the time, much less notice anything an inning later. The players are responsible for their play, not the fans.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Oct 9, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
WPA has a known bias against the person who gives up the winning run.
Matt Holliday all the way.
by Janic on Oct 8, 2009 7:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is a situation where WPA doesn't tell the whole story, IMO.
If Holliday makes a relatively easy catch and the Cards head back to St. Louis with home-field advantage. Instead, he drops it and they end up losing.
Maybe Holliday didn’t lose them the game, but he prevented them from winning by dropping the ball. It sucks for him but if he catches it the game is over.
Go Nova
by dbroncos31 on Oct 8, 2009 7:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well sure
If Holliday makes a relatively easy catch, the Cardinals win.
If Franklin retires Blake or Belliard, the Cardinals win.
If Franklin retires Martin or Loretta, the game goes to extras.
Holliday opened the door, but Franklin had opportunities to slam it back shut and couldn’t do it.
by Jeff on Oct 8, 2009 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not disagreeing with those facts.
But in my opinion it’s easier to make a catch than retire a major league hitter.
Holliday shouldn’t be crucified for the drop, but he’ll get a majority of the blame, which I think is fair.
I would expect every MLB OF to make that play.
Go Nova
by dbroncos31 on Oct 8, 2009 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you honestly just ask who was going to be remembered as "The Goat"?
“BAA.”
by Adam B on Oct 8, 2009 8:23 PM PDT reply actions 17 recs
Can you imagine
if Jeff did this to us if we had just experienced a heart breaking game like that?
FUCK THE ANGELS! FUCK THE ANGELS! FUCK THE ANGELS!
by Goose on Oct 8, 2009 8:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
People would explode all over the state of Washington.
Having all those penned up obscenities isn’t healthy for you.
Say it with me: Washington Capitals. Capitals.
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997
by JLProck on Oct 8, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Oh please. Go knock down some bourbon and grow a dick."
- Not an acceptable comment.- Consider this your warning.
The only people that we’d have left are Coach and Positive Paul. And no content since Jeff, Matthew and Graham would all be banned.
...and now I'm here
by Librocrat on Oct 8, 2009 8:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
THEY'VE TAKEN OUR FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOM!
You got slurved!
by Slurvey on Oct 8, 2009 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
VEB content is ok but the tone of the site sucks balls
by Poochie on Oct 8, 2009 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you can stand
the Douche factor over there, you should at least check out some of that fiasco last night and you’ll easily see who is going to go down as (as opposed to on) the goat. Holliday sealed his place in Cards history—maybe seared his place in the collective memory is more like it. If they end up losing the series—and I would put money on that they do—he will not be welcome in that town for quite a while. I say this remembering Leon Durham from 1984 and Bill Buckner 2 years later.
"There is no tomorrow for you, and that makes you very dangerous people."--Jimmy McGinty (Gene Hackman) The Replacements
Time is an illusion--lunch time doubly so.
by snowyman28 on Oct 9, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well this is dumb
it never even occurred to me that Holliday was the one to blame
by Poochie on Oct 9, 2009 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How on earth can a place with zero personality be douchy?
VEB is the opposite of offensive.
by Graham on Oct 10, 2009 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm really afraid of what would happen here during the playoffs
by Jeff on Oct 8, 2009 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good GTE has been missing for a long time. I think it would make it's glorious return.
FUCK THE ANGELS! FUCK THE ANGELS! FUCK THE ANGELS!
by Goose on Oct 8, 2009 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I almost barfed and then call for the murder of two players and I'm one of the sane ones
by Poochie on Oct 8, 2009 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I assume you mean by comparison.
...and now I'm here
by Librocrat on Oct 8, 2009 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
. . .
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Oct 8, 2009 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The content is great but the community itself is sterile and boring.
by acblue on Oct 8, 2009 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're totally entitled to your opinion
and I know that there are some people who felt the same way and didn’t stick around. Each of the (popular) blogs on SBN seems to create it’s own sense of community. VEB’s is different from LL’s. Frankly, I think the community here is antagonistic. It runs to individual’s taste. But, if VEB is boring, then there’s a lot of people that appeals to apparently as it has a robust set of members.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Oct 8, 2009 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Having a bunch of grade-school rules that stifles game-time emotion seems rather dull.
by BrianL on Oct 8, 2009 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that reminding posters not to personally attack players and/or their genitals
Is perfect reasonable, and doesn’t fall under the category of “grade-school rules”.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 8, 2009 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bet those players deserved those person attacks
by Poochie on Oct 8, 2009 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is fine.
I know that people are different. But it’s not like I went to VEB and threw up a fanshot saying “Your blog sucks.”
by acblue on Oct 8, 2009 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And judging by the fact that you actually aren't a member there
I’d say that you are basing that off of your limited viewing of our community in the the thread linked, which was a game-thread in which much of the comments were deleted for being malicious.
It’s a shame because I think there are a lot of excellent commenters at VEB, a few who have got to write for places like THT and FanGraphs. The majority are fine and know there shit.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 8, 2009 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No we had a blog war with VEB last year
by Poochie on Oct 8, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And it was a boring, much like VEB.
FUCK THE ANGELS! FUCK THE ANGELS! FUCK THE ANGELS!
by Goose on Oct 8, 2009 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Malicious like our game-thread death threats to Carlos Beltran last season?
by BrianL on Oct 8, 2009 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for assuming I'm a mis-informed asshole!
by acblue on Oct 8, 2009 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We just said it sounded boring compared to the anarchist SBN site known as LL.
Let the apocaLLypse begin!
Part of LL is yelling random malicious obscenities… In the game threads at least and we have some limit of sorts. C’mon it was the heat of the moment you can’t really blame the posters from yelling out in frustration…
You got slurved!
by Slurvey on Oct 8, 2009 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't read the fucking comments if you find it boring.
by njd.aitken on Oct 8, 2009 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey ac, did you know Albert Pujols snorts blow off Ryan Ludwick's throbbing boner for prepubescent children?
...and now I'm here
by Librocrat on Oct 8, 2009 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions 8 recs
ACK!
Turn green
The Yankees suck-a-doodle-doo!
by JamMasterJesus on Oct 8, 2009 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gosh this sub-thread is funny.
And it would really suck if Jeff did that.
Fuck the Angels!
by JMKaustin on Oct 8, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We might as well just start a blog war checklist
Who’s next?
by Jeff on Oct 9, 2009 12:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pension Plan Puppets
...and now I'm here
by Librocrat on Oct 9, 2009 1:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My rec-fingers are getting tired from handing out all these recs!
Would it be a bad idea to go over to the Red Socks blog, and inform them via FanPost that they aren’t special just because they’re on ESPN and hate the damn dirty Yanks?
The Yankees suck-a-doodle-doo!
by JamMasterJesus on Oct 9, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
While Franklin obviously was the main reason for the loss
There is a matter of the difficulty of each play. Franklin and Ryan both played poorly in situations in which batters and pitchers play poorly in all of the time. Holliday dropped a flyball that gets caught 98% of the time and if he had caught it, the game would be over.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 8, 2009 9:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not to blame but Over-rated
So Holliday is the Goat, despite Franklin’s resemblence. He’s been over-rated as a closer., as an MLB pitcher. The Game lines during the season, W Pineiro, S. Franklin, were a tad preposterous. The save is an over-rated stat.
I say good day to you Ryan.
by lokiforever on Oct 8, 2009 9:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
People who should be killed
1) Tony LaRussa
2) Ryan Franklin
How you could not go to Smoltz there is beyond my understanding
by Poochie on Oct 8, 2009 10:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
99% of managers would have stuck with Franklin
Not saying it’s right, but you can’t expect much more from Tony.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 8, 2009 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Franklin has been terrible for the last two months, and has been on a short leash as of late, and looked terrible from the get go
Its like the only person who didn’t see it coming was the man calling the shots. It is 100% inexcusable for him not to have another option to go to. He deserves lose his job for this.
by Poochie on Oct 8, 2009 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He always pulls of shit like this
Like carrying 13 pitchers and playing Rick Ankiel against lefties. For some reason, his teams always do well.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 8, 2009 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So that excuses it?
Give me one good reason Ryan Franklin should have relived Miller instead of Smoltz.
by Poochie on Oct 8, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't excusing it
I agree 100%. I was expressing my infuriation with the fact that Tony always “gets away with it”.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 8, 2009 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Smoltz is probably not much better than Franklin at this point in his career.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 8, 2009 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Franklin's been better this year overall
And it’s coming off of surgery and isn’t over 40.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 8, 2009 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And isn't Ryan Franklin.
Say it with me: Washington Capitals. Capitals.
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997
by JLProck on Oct 8, 2009 11:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ryan Franklin: 2.1 K/BB as NL reliever
John Smoltz: 4.6 K/BB as AL/NL starter
by Jeff on Oct 9, 2009 12:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Franklin: 112 tRA+
Smoltz: 105ish tRA+
by vivaelpujols on Oct 9, 2009 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You might have a point here then
by vivaelpujols on Oct 9, 2009 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Franklin is terrible or anything
but John Smoltz is really good, and really good against righties. Poochie’s right, he should’ve been in.
by Jeff on Oct 9, 2009 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you are referring to going forward as in 2010
ok, maybe, if only because Smoltz’s arm is liable to explode at any given moment, but that’s retarded because that’s not what this conversation is about. We’re talking about get two outs on a dreary afternoon in LA. In fact I would argue the way he’s pitched the last two months Ryan Franklin is the least qualified of any of the righthanders to close.
by Poochie on Oct 9, 2009 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think maybe he should have just left Wainwright in
At least for a batter or two and see how it goes. He was cruising—he threw 72% strikes, and 109 pitches at that point doesn’t seem like too many to me. Their bullpen is just bad in general.
by Milendriel on Oct 9, 2009 5:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was losing his release point, he had hit a batter and then walked one after being nearly perfect
I would have removed him and brought in Smoltz to face Kemp… but even then, going to Miller to get Either out was the right call.
by Poochie on Oct 9, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
After much consideration this is without a doubt the worst baseball game I have ever seen.
No other game even comes close.
by Poochie on Oct 9, 2009 12:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I see Dave took this and ran with it on Fangraphs today
by Jeff on Oct 9, 2009 1:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
And pretty much doesn't understand how the majority of Cards fans feel
At least those at VEB. People recognize that Franklin was the main malefactor in the Cardinals loss; however, the game thread obviously is going to be pissed at Holliday.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 9, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would argue that the very existence of the article proves he knows how the majority of the Cards fans feel
If Franklin was taking most of the blame there would be no need for it in the first place.
by Poochie on Oct 9, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've set up a poll
Let’s see what happens.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 9, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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