Why Ken Griffey Jr. could be good for the Mariners next year
Ken Griffey Jr. is one of the better solutions for the Mariners in 2009. Forget the knee surgury or the return to Seattle giving him some kind of youth treatment. Even let go of the idea that playing mostly DH and getting more consistent rest will improve his stats. Let's settle on platooning him. Play Junior Griffey the same way they'll be playing Russell Branyan next year, avoiding left handed pitching like the plague. Last year, Branyan saw Right Handers 92% of the time, do that for Griffey and he starts to be pretty useful.
Let me be clear, I'm not saying the Mariners should sign Griffey to a multi-year contract. He should understand, going in, that he won't be seeing left handers, that he won't be playing more than 30 games in the outfield, and none of those in Center. The contract should be something like 3-4 million gauranteed, with incentives for 20, 25, and 30 home runs, for a .300 batting average, and for awards with a team option/buyout for next year that brings the total value up around 8 million dollars if he hits EVERY incentive (He's not likely to get 30 Home Runs, MVP, or Silver Slugger).
You want someone who won't take time from the developing players. Well, since Seattle's basically said Clement is a catcher until he's not, look for him to start 70-90 games there, and maybe 30 at DH, Griffey won't be starting more than 100 there. Zduriencik has all but said he's making Wlad 4th Outfielder next year, Griffey won't be taking up much time in the outfield and there should still be time at DH when Clement's done.
You don't want a long term/expensive contract. Dunn and Abreu both want long term contracts, they both want 12 million+ next year. Say they settle, and one of them ends up in Seattle next year on a 1-year ~8 million contract. Both are bad fielders and would demand to play the field so they could maintain value for next years free agent class, hurting their offensive value.
So, what happens if you play Griffey in, say; 80 games at DH, 20 Games in Right Field (assuming Ichiro is kind enough to move to Center and FGut to Left for those games), and pinch hitting against ROOGYs at every opportunity while being removed when a LOOGY comes into play against him. I figure he gets about 450 ABs, if you split it 400/50 (~89% Righties) then he'll have a good amount of value. The positional adjustment is:
DH: -9.3 runs
RF: -1 run
Defense: -3 runs (Based on 13% of his UZR/150)
Replacement: +15
Overall: +1.7 Runs (.16 Wins)
(Both the DH and RF penalties would likely be slightly lower, since he would leave most games early, is there a pinch hitter P.A.?)
The Good Season
2009 (assuming 2007 rates of production)BABiP: .300 vs. R / .250 vs. L
vs. R - 400 PA, 344 AB - 63 K, 49 BB, 1 HBP, 6 Sac Flys, 61 Sngls, 1 ROE, 19 Dbls, 21 HR
.294/.376/.532/.908
vs. L - 50 PA, 45 AB - 9 K, 5 BB, 7 Sngls, 2 Dbls, 2 HR
.244/.320/.422/.742
total - 450 PA, 399 ab - 72 k, 54 bb, 1 HBP, 6 Sac Flys, 69 Sngls, 1 ROE, 21 Dbls, 23 HR
.283/.372/.509/.881 - wOBA .386
(Assume LgAv wOBA .335) .051/1.15=.04435...*450=19.96 RAA ~1.9 Wins
The Bad Season
2009 (assuming 2008 rates of production) BABiP: .281 vs. R / .219 vs. L
vs. R - 400 PA, 349 AB - 53 K, 46 BB, 1 HBP, 4 Sac Flys, 59 Sngls, 1 ROE, 20 Dbls, 15 HR
.269/.351/.455/.806
vs. R - 50 PA, 44 AB - 11 K, 6 BB, 4 Sngls, 3 Dbls, 1 HRs
.182/.280/.295/.575
total - 450 PA, 393 ab - 64 k, 52 bb, 1 HBP, 4 Sac Flys, 63 Sngls, 1 ROE, 23 Dbls, 16 HR
.262/.345/.443/.788 - wOBA .346
(Assume LgAv wOBA .335) .011/1.15=.00957...*450=4.3 RAA ~.4 Wins
Altogether that makes Ken Griffey Jr. a .5 - 2 Win Player next year in a limited role that allows the Mariners to continue to play both Clement and Balentien adequately.
Also, as part of Jeff's assessment that Griffey's bad knee had little to do with his poor performance in 2008, he cited an equally poor April when Griffey's knee was theoretically healthy.
Aprils 2000-2007
.231/.340/.417/.757 .256 BABiP
April 2008
.248/.342/.416/.758 .253 BABiP
As you can see, Griffey's 2008 April was almost perfectly on track with his average April from the previous 8 years. Obviously he missed a lot of time due to injury in most of those Aprils, but even in the one's where he was presumably healthy ('00, '04, & '05), he posted OPS's of .790, .723, and .681, so I think it's safe to say that April just isn't his best month anymore.
Furthermore, if you allow Griffey the month of May to have taken time to recover somewhat from and adjust to his knee injury, he went on to perform fairly well the rest of the season.
June 1-Sep 30: .249/.363/.450/.813, wOBA .353, .271 BABiP.
So, take from that what you will. My opinion is, he'll produce similar offensive value to Bobby Abreu & Adam Dunn (Under the set of circumstances I outlined above) while not demanding to play the field and for less money, and not taking very much time away from Jeff Clement or Wladimir Balentien.
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Comments
This is a good post
Realistically, Griffey has a very low chance of being a league average player, but the fact that you put a lot of thought and work into this post is noted and appreciated.
by Graham MacAree on Jan 29, 2009 10:46 PM PST reply actions
This is basically the reaction I expected
But I’m glad to at least not be flamed for being pro-Griffey
by Malcontent1 on Jan 29, 2009 11:00 PM PST up reply actions
No, you made a very eloquent argument.
I just don’t see who would be platooned at DH against lefties.
Bring back Jeff Weaver too so Sweeney can have someone to wail on.
Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism
Also slow, overweight and injury prone.
But who the hell am I kidding, I’d still want to get a picture taken with Jr. I can’t help but love him forever because of the 90’s, he’s just not a very good baseball player anymore. And it makes me sad in the pants to think it.
I was thinking Balentien
he batted .275/.356/.617/.972 against righties in the minors last year. I don’t know where I can find his previous splits, but I would assume they’d be similar
by Malcontent1 on Jan 29, 2009 11:10 PM PST up reply actions
If he's your platoon candidate to go with Griffey
His numbers against lefties might be more meaningful than righties.
His career minor league numbers are .277/.348/.518 against RHP and .241/.343/.469 against LHP. And of course, in the majors he has yet to really demonstrate any ability hit either handedness of pitcher.
Not very encouraging platoon splits, especially given that he’s apparently worse at hitting lefties. Or at the very least, there’s no reason to believe that he’s good at hitting lefties from his minor league splits.
Best pro-Griffey post of the year.
I especially like the fact that you mentioned nothing about him putting butts in seats.
What you’ve outlined looks like a whole lot of micro-managing for little gain. Waka and Co. already have plenty of that to deal with. Why not just sign a legitimate bat that won’t need so much worrying and call it a day?
You're trying to kidnap what I've rightfully stolen.
A legitmate bat will cost more
and demand to play the field, and possibly demand a long term contract.
bring him home
bring him home,it would be great for me and most of my kingdome raised mariner fans,plus the tickcet revenue would make up for it,let him come home and retire a mariner.
I bet we'd sell out opening and closing day regardless
If we’re out of the race by the third week of September, let him sign a two week deal.
Agreed.
If he’s still sitting around the last week looking for a job, then by all means let him have his swan song while the entire state of Washington weeps.
Having him as our full-time DH? Yeesh, we can do better, as Dave Cameron pointed out clearly a few days ago.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
He pointed it out using CHONE
Which loves Nick Swisher as if he were it’s first begotten son, and is predicting (I assume) that Griffey continues to see left handed pitching at a 30% clip
by Malcontent1 on Jan 29, 2009 11:26 PM PST up reply actions
Dave Cameron is not dumb enough to tie himself mindlessly into one projection system
by Graham MacAree on Jan 29, 2009 11:27 PM PST up reply actions
Platooning Griffey would boost his projected wOBA a healthy amount
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 29, 2009 11:29 PM PST up reply actions
No shit.
But implying that Dave thinks Griffey is bad because of CHONE is holy fuck untrue.
by Graham MacAree on Jan 29, 2009 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
Correct
However, for purposes of that one analysis he did, he used a flat CHONE projection instead of adjusting for a platoon. That’s my only point here. I’m going to bed.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 29, 2009 11:33 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not saying he's mindlessly using one projection system
In the post he’s referring to, he specifically uses CHONE
by Malcontent1 on Jan 29, 2009 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
He could also use Marcels, PECOTA, or his own judgement
They would all back him up.
by Graham MacAree on Jan 29, 2009 11:31 PM PST up reply actions
Another monkey
apparently he doesn’t think anybody will walk next season
by Malcontent1 on Jan 29, 2009 11:35 PM PST up reply actions
I'm trying to figure this out myself.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Marcels
but with all seasons accounted but attributed continually diminishing weights. Also, he includes all minor league seasons using a ‘Minor League Equivalencies’ system that I kind of glanced over one night and didn’t particularly like. But that isn’t to say it’s no good – I’m not the one to answer that question.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 30, 2009 6:37 AM PST up reply actions
Obvious troll account is obvious.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 29, 2009 11:29 PM PST up reply actions
Fuck Griffey
(it had to be said)
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Excellent post
Griffey is far from my first choice, and I think we disagree a little bit on just how much he has left in the tank, but you make a good case. Well done.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 29, 2009 11:16 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Beware! The devil speaks with a forked tongue and honeyed words!
We must take care not to fall under the spell of this bewitchingly eloquent argument!
[Seriously though, this was a well-thought out argument…the scary part is that if you squint enough it almost seems like a convincing one.]
Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism
Sarcasm aside...
This is indeed a very well-thought out FanPost. I don’t agree with the general premise (personally, I’d much prefer we sign Abreu/Dunn or trade for Swisher) but it’s about 5,000 times a more eloquent argument than the standard “bring grifey back marinur for life ZOMGAA!!!!!111” drivel you find on the PI forums.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
The problem with Abreu/Dunn is
that either of them would be patrolling (probably) Left Field for 150+ games, and (according to UZR) neither was as good as Raul Ibanez in the field last year.
by Malcontent1 on Jan 29, 2009 11:28 PM PST up reply actions
No they wouldn't
The Mariners now value defence properly. There is zero reason to expect Dunn or Abreu to play the outfield.
by Graham MacAree on Jan 29, 2009 11:29 PM PST up reply actions
Jason Churchill says there's no way Dunn would sign for 1 year AND DH
I assume the same is true for Abreu
by Malcontent1 on Jan 29, 2009 11:31 PM PST up reply actions
So if Jason Churchill says something it's true
And if Dave says something it’s to be questioned?
You have your people-to-trust all mixed up.
by Graham MacAree on Jan 29, 2009 11:32 PM PST up reply actions
No,
but from what I’ve read otherwise, Dunn isn’t particularly interested in coming to Seattle anyways, and no one seems to want to DH
by Malcontent1 on Jan 29, 2009 11:34 PM PST up reply actions
Things change, his options are limited
I’m sure he’d rather play in Seattle if they have the best deal, or if it’s better alternative to holding out and playing in the Northern League.
To be fair, I think this is almost certainly true.
If given a choice of 1 year deals and even remotely similar money, Dunn would prefer to go with Washington (to name one likely candidate), remain a LF, and boost his value for 2010. I doubt he signs anywhere he’s forced to be the primary DH, unless there are more years or significantly more $$ on the table.
Abreu seems like a different case.
Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism
Because he retains -- in his mind if nothing else -- his identity as a "complete" player and not a mere DH
There is an unstated assumption among many here that FO knowledge is cumulative and permanent. I don’t believe this to be true at all (look at DePodesta and then Colletti, for example), and if I were being perfectly cynical I might suggest that Dunn and his agent also realize this. Sure, defense seems to be at a premium now, but who knows what dumbass desperate GM might nibble on Dunn next year in a recovering economy?
By keeping himself “viable” as a left fielder — by playing the position day-in, day-out, if nothing more — he sets himself up to be marketed as such in 2010, as opposed to a DH, whose limitations are more obviously perceived. Look to someone like Ibanez for a comparison.
Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism
With respect to Ibanez, I mean...
…look at how Ibanez was able to parlay his bat into a ridiculous overpay of a contract by presenting himself as a “left fielder.” The only reason he was able to do this is because the M’s never forced him to play DH. (Thanks, Vidro! Thanks, Bill!) If they had, Raul would have hit free agency with the tag of “DH/butcher in the field” instead of the irrational and unjust (yet inexplicably persuasive) tag of “LF.” That rep as someone who could play in the outfield (however poorly) not only helped spur interest from several NL teams, but helped him get that dumb 3 year K.
And yes, all this really proves is that Ruben Amaro is a moron…but it only takes one moron in any given offseason. Hence the reason why Dunn does indeed “help” his contractual value in the real & irrational world by playing LF, even as he hurts his objective on-field value by playing it shittily.
It ain’t about what’s right, JI. It rarely is. It rarely is.
Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism
Obviously, but even a GM dumb enough to want to play Dunn in the field
is going to realize that his legs haven’t atrophied because he spent a year as a DH.
See: Bradley, Milton.
by JI on Jan 30, 2009 8:15 PM PST up reply actions
Um...
Using as an example, a guy who just signed a 3/$30 deal with a NL club kind of undermines your point a little bit.
?
Milton Bradley signed on to be a DH for a year in Texas, hit the shit out of the ball, then signed a three-year deal a year later to play in the outfield. I don’t get how this example undermines anything.
by Teej on Jan 30, 2009 10:56 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually
Bradley didn’t really sign to be a DH…the plan was for him to play the OF, but his knee injury didn’t heal enough for him to do it (he did play 20 games there last year).
I'd rather know a little about a lot than a lot about a little
by Sportszilla on Jan 31, 2009 12:34 AM PST up reply actions
Fair point
But JI’s point still stands: Being (mostly) a DH for a year didn’t keep Bradley from getting a three-year deal to play in the outfield.
I can understand the idea that, generally, not playing in the field can hurt a player’s prospects for getting back out there. I’m just wondering how using Bradley as an example “undermines” JI’s argument.
I misread his post
I thought he was saying that a GM dumb enough to want to put Dunn in the field was also dumb enough to think that a year at DH had killed his legs.
But the reason for that is because Bradley is a plus outfielder.
Assuming he stays healthy, Milton is a very good defensive outfielder, and could even play center in a world where you weren’t scared shitless of his legs snapping like matchsticks at any given moment.
That means he isn’t a good comparison for these purposes to Dunn or Ibanez at all. The reason you worry about Milton in the OF is because you want him to be healthy, not because he’s a butcher. With Raul and Dunn, you don’t want them in the OF because they harm your team so much….and yet Raul managed to get a much more lucrative deal than he otherwise might have by retaining his “brand” (however undeserved) as a LF and not just a DH. Bradley was never in danger of tarnishing his.
Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism
Really....
If anybody says anything, about something that is not immediately verifiable, and probably even then; it’s to be questioned.
by Malcontent1 on Jan 29, 2009 11:38 PM PST up reply actions
Here's the quote regarding Dunn, from the 'Another Bat' post
I think it’s quite possible that he settles for something like 2/22 and tries to test the market again in 2010-11.
If he takes a short term deal, it won’t be to DH. He can’t re-establish his value without trying to show some defensive improvement. You won’t be able to get him on a short term deal without letting him play the field. Pick your poison.
The italics are what he’s responding to
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 30, 2009 6:44 AM PST up reply actions
If he is stubborn enough to not want to DH for the benefit of the team....
…then I hope he enjoys watching the ’09 season on the sofa.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Churchill says a lot of things that aren't true
or don’t come to fruition. Don’t believe it to be gospel.
Churchill gets railed a little too much
He’s not like DOV (did the link for this get taken off the main page?). I’d rather him give us all his rumors he hears. I think everybody understands this is how he operates. Imagine it a big watercooler for the MLB. Random conversations about teams and possible moves. Rarely does the blogosphere get as much access to inner thinkings of the MLB. I think what he does is pretty unappreciated. When you read something from his site just realize that it is probably going through 3 or 4 people before it gets to him so it is probably out of date and also a very preliminary thought.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 30, 2009 12:08 AM PST up reply actions
"Rarely does the blogosphere get as much access to inner thinkings of the MLB"
I’m not saying anything else about Jason, but really?
I guess us having half the front office speak to you guys just isn’t good enough.
by Graham MacAree on Jan 30, 2009 7:30 AM PST up reply actions
Wrong.
What’s said to a group of people in a public place (i.e. at FanFest or at a blog gathering) is a hell of a lot different than what’s shared amongst “friends” when the mikes aren’t turned on.
This signature space for rent.
by PositivePaul on Jan 30, 2009 10:16 PM PST up reply actions
Riiiight
The first thing I do when i get information from sources is share it with the world because god knows I don’t want to keep them talking to me.
by Graham MacAree on Jan 31, 2009 9:29 AM PST up reply actions
The blogosphere has no idea what the FO is thinking
If you think you do then I don’t know what to say. The innerworkings are basically hidden from us. Except for a few meetings with the outside world and articles written with press passes, we have no real good way to guess what they are thinking except taking good guesses.
If Churchill knows a few scouts around the league, I’ll listen to what he tells us. Are all his tips to us lies he makes up to get us to read his site? Maybe but I really doubt it.
Also, I’d assume that his sources understand who they are talking to. He writes articles and has a blog. Its his job to get information from sources and share it with the world. Reporters probably don’t get as much info as they could if they didn’t release anything but I think as long as they release the info in the correct manner people don’t get too worried about it.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 31, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions
"The blogosphere has no idea what the FO is thinking"
I’m not sure that’s as true as you think it is.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 31, 2009 4:14 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah its a little hyperbole
It probably should be, “I wish we knew way more about what the FO was thinking”.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 31, 2009 5:47 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah as I think about it now
Its much easier to understand what this administration is thinking compared to the last one. Its taking a while from me to switch over from wondering why Adam Jones wasn’t called up and why Jose Vidro was on the team to believing that the people in charge can make rational decisions.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 31, 2009 9:17 PM PST up reply actions
My $0.02
Churchill isn’t a liar, and he’s not trying to deceive people, but like with the Bedard situation I think he should be a bit more careful with what he does/does not report, or at least put some type of disclaimer with it.
by JI on Jan 30, 2009 8:54 AM PST up reply actions
I think he does theses days.
He made some post about learning which sources to trust and not to trust. He’s certainly better about how he reports things. His latest rumor has a ton of disclaimers.
Churchill was close to spot on when it came to the new coaching staff. And the ones he didn’t get were announced days after most of them were set in stone.
Read, people!
The info he’s reported isn’t made up. Some of it’s old info and some of it’s very questionable.
Hence the usage of “Might” and “have discussed” and “is close to…” These are all “some type of disclaimer” thingys, IMHO.
This current office is a lot more tight lipped than the previous one was. But there’s still some of the same people who are very much in the know who continue to feed information to various sources. And there are those outside of the organization who do the same — and share information about, say, who the M’s have asked about, etc.
This signature space for rent.
by PositivePaul on Jan 30, 2009 10:21 PM PST up reply actions
Um
That and what he said about Rick Ankiel makes him only slightly better than Decteco
(*that last part is a joke)
Based on the info at the time...
…NO ONE knew Bedard was seriously injured.
They’d tested him and prodded him. He was sore, hurting, and couldn’t recover well enough to pitch. Nobody could figure out what was wrong. He hadn’t been diagnosed, formally, with anything at that time. At the time Churchill pointed that out, the news about his surgery hadn’t broken yet. Only AFTER they did the arthroscopic surgery (a few days after Churchill made that comment) did they discover that he indeed had a relatively minor injury (the cyst).
And – again – READ. “He’s protecting himself on the advice of his agent.” He was being extremely cautious – prudent, if you will – because he didn’t want to push himself and really risk serious injury. He was hurting enough to not be able to pitch, but they couldn’t diagnose him with a major injury until only AFTER he had the arthroscopic surgery.
But even still – he’s not perfect. No one is. He’s been wrong before, he’ll be wrong again. He’s able to get a lot more information than you or I can. While I always fact check with a lot of other people I know who have “sources” and I take every bit of his reported news with skepticism, he’s been right enough for me to trust his sources…
There’s a legitimate question as to WHY these people give him any sort of information, knowing that he puts things on his web site. There’s a lot more that he shares that he doesn’t put on his web site. A lot.
I’m done caring about this, though…
Maybe you didn’t see this from the Q&A with Churchill at Mariner Central, so I’ll post it here:
Over the past few years you have published as “about to happen” rumors based on your sources within the Mariners organization. There have been some rather visible instances where the Mariners went another direction than what your sources indicated. As a result, for some your credibility as a source of inside information on the Mariners has taken a significant hit. Of course, all you can do is develop your sources and rely on the information they give you, vetting it to the best of your ability. But because of these things, many may find it interesting if you would describe how these kinds of things work, both the good and the bad. Of course we do not expect you to compromise your sources.
JAC: With very few exceptions (Adam Jones’ call-up, Erik Bedard trade), if you read it carefully enough, I’m generally saying that it’s possible, or is a strong possibility, or simply being talked about or negotiated.
With the Adam Jones call-up in 2007, I reported on July 10 that he was likely to be called up the Thursday or Friday following the MLB All-Star break, which would have been the 12th or 13th. Instead, he was called up August 1st, played on August 3rd.
My source was a member of the M’s front office staff, and what happened in that instance is that they simply changed their minds to protect service time concerns. Up until that point they had decided to forego service time concerns and call him up and ready him for 2008.
Typically, however, I’m not broadly saying ‘this is going to happen soon,’ it’s just me sharing what I am hearing and letting the reader in on how probable my sources – usually agents, scout types or players – believe the deal is.
I specifically remember the Brian Roberts rumors last winter. The Cubs’ own Assistant GM thought the deal was going to happen – and quickly – so when a Cubs fan from a message board emailed me to ask what I knew, that’s pretty much what I told him – that a front office exec from an involved club suggests it could happen, and soon.
With the Bedard deal, though, I just had a much better source who was directly involved in the negotiations, which is why I had all five M’s pieces a month and a half before anyone else on the planet.
The voice mail I used to report the pitching coach hire of Jim Slaton- which was way off, obviously – was both my error and the source’s.
He mistyped, got his sentence backwards, rushed out the door, and was in Venezuela the very next day and was not available to me to re-verify and clarify. I should have waited a few days. Live and learn.
Some of the issues come with the wording. I’m trying to be more careful not to mislead, as it’s certainly not my intent – it does me no good to do that – which is why words such as “likely,” and “potentially” and “possibly” are used so often.
And remember, the rate of transactions that occur to transactions that are seriously discussed is probably under three percent. But if you read something that you believe may be misleading you, drop me a line, I’ll do my best to clarify, and if necessary, I will change the wording of a report.
As for my credibility is concerned, well, I’m not concerned – it’s not why I do this, at all. And my sources have been right much more than they have been wrong. Over the past 16 months or so, they have been extremely on the money.
I have indeed, however, stopped trusting certain sources. I have even tried to confirm one’s info with someone else’s, had the second person confirm it and it still turned out to be off, at least somewhat. So, as an ongoing process that will never end, I learn who to trust and who not to trust.
There’s two sources in particular that have never, ever been wrong, and I go to them just about every single day to get advice, thoughts, news, all kinds of info. What’s great is, one is an NL easte coast guy and one is an AL west zone guy, so I pretty much have it covered.
A few other sources are reliable as well, but aren’t as available to me as I wish they were. When I get a piece of information and it’s not from one of my few money sources, I start calling and emailing others to see if I can piece together that information via one or more other contacts. If I can do so, I will use it. If I cannot, I wait until I can.
There have been times when a local beat writer of one of the clubs involved helps me confirm the information I have received, but in that case I have to be careful not to lead them into saying what I hope they have heard.
This signature space for rent.
by PositivePaul on Jan 31, 2009 10:18 PM PST up reply actions
He made some serious allegations against Bedard which weren't true
and he attacked his character.
If he had qualified it with a “so I hear” or a “rumor has it” or some other warning or explained his reasons for why he doesn’t like Beard as a person I guess it’d be fine; but that’s not the case here, so for me it’s hard to put any stock in his rumors.
This typo is the perfect ironic nickname.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 31, 2009 11:37 PM PST up reply actions
He puts disclaimers in more often than not.
Although I’m not sure what his deal is with Bedard, though. He made an assumption about Bedard’s condition and then mocked him for it. That was pretty weak.
It is true that
at the time Churchill made his comment (September 12), all we knew was that the injury was an internal impingement. Maybe Churchill didn’t consider that to be serious (I would think a good number of people might have felt the same if they believed the party line), but I would qualify anything that involves the pinching of the labrum and the rotator cuff tendons as something to be the most concerned about.
Only AFTER they did the arthroscopic surgery (a few days after Churchill made that comment) did they discover that he indeed had a relatively minor injury (the cyst).
Just to try and keep the events straight, it was known before the surgery took place that it would involve the removal of a cyst, as Bedard and Rick Griffin state here. He also mentions that his labrum was going to be worked on. Perhaps that was the source of confusion as to the seriousness of the injury, since Bedard said it was a torn labrum while the team insisted the damage was only fraying. There might be some clarification of those statements in the comments section here.
I have a very hard time believing that Wakamatsu is obtuse enough to run Dunn out in LF for 150+ games.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
The Bad Season has two lines for righties.
Man, that .575 OPS projection says everything.
...Snoop Doggy-Dogg... Ya need to get yourself a jobby-job.
That would be a typo
And it is over 50 plate appearances, with a .219 BABiP. Give him an extra single, and the OPS spikes up to .650 or so
by Malcontent1 on Jan 29, 2009 11:32 PM PST up reply actions
I wouldn't mind exploring this direction
If only Griffey didn’t come with the nostalgic baggage. This is a good post.
I <3 Everything about this.
Well done.
...and now I'm here
This is so biblical
seven shitty new user fanposts followed by seven excellent ones!
OK maybe not seven but there was a bad run there for a little while and now a run of good ones. Well done sir.
I hope Griffey retires a Red.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 30, 2009 6:47 AM PST reply actions
Very late to the party
but thanks, Malcontent, for arguing rationally. It’s appreciated.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
I must admit I was giddily excited for the troll-bashing goodness this morning
then I read the post and was impressed at its lucidity. I don’t think I agree with it, but this is the most rationally laid-out argument for Griffey I have read in ever.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
Well done.
I may have gone this route via fan-post myself, if my stat knowledge ran deeper than the surface. You have given sentimental Griffey love a new voice, thank you.
FGut?
When is it ever going to end? Torre should’ve mentioned in his book how stupid of a trend A-Rod’s nickname has become.
I was willing to let it go given the overall goodness of the post itself
but yeah, that’s not so bueno.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
It was getting late
and writing Gutierrez was giving me troubles
by Malcontent1 on Jan 30, 2009 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
I would like to follow that up by saying
the only one of those type of nicknames I endorse would be ManRam because of the hilarity factor
by Malcontent1 on Jan 30, 2009 12:33 PM PST up reply actions
Excellent post, well thought out
I think everyone has said it, but we all appreciate the effort you put into this.
the other angels fan
Thanks Malcontent
So – what do you think the odds are of getting Griffey on that contract?
And are there other potential LH DH platoon guys who might add the same value for less money? Or who might have a bit of projection left?
What premium would you pay for Dunn (or Abreu) on a one year deal?
A link to this FanPost should be in the terms and conditions to join the blog as an example of how to make your first post
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
Finally a Griffey post with actually solid reason to why he should come here.
VS the usual oh it would be awesome for him to come and retire here or my personal favorite he needs to come here and win the HR title he deserves over Bond it’s the house we built for Griffey so lets do it sign him for multiple years we’re not going any where any way.
BOOYA! You got Slurved!
Some problems
Not to rain on the love fest above or anything (seriously, good job), but, here’s a few issues with this analysis.
1. The 89/11 split of ABs between RHP and LHP isn’t really possible. The best you can hope for, if you’re extremely strict about pinch-hitting for him often, is about 84/16. And that’s if you pinch hit for him in practically every single meaningful at-bat in which he might have to face an LHP. From a practical perspective, that’s nearly impossible to do.
2. I talked about this a few years ago with Curtis Granderson, but extreme platoon splits lower a player’s value. In every single high leverage situation that Jr would be capable of producing in, under this scenario, he’d be removed for Balentien/Shelton/Sweeney/whoever. Therefore, his production would be shifted towards a lower leveraged mean. If you’re going to pinch-hit for him in all high-leverage situations, you have to lower his value by about ~10%.
3. There’s an underlying assumption that his struggles vs LHP tell us nothing about his relative talent level vs RHP. While it’s true that players have different abilities against different levels of handedness, it is not necessarily true that players age slower against opposite handed pitchers. The things that have caused Griffey to struggle against LHP are not necessarily independent of the skills needed to perform against RHP. Because of the sample size, we cannot assume that his past two year platoon splits represent true talent levels. It is not just possible, but likely, that the deterioration in skills that has caused him to struggle vs LHP also affects his abilities vs RHP.
4. Even with Safeco being LH friendly, you still have to account for the differences in parks and leagues from Cincy/NL to Seattle/AL. They cannot be treated as equals.
5. Finally, age. His good season came at 37. Regardless of how much you think his knee bothered him last year, he’s going to be 39 next year. 39 year olds do not hit like 37 year olds. If you believe that his 2007 line represented his true talent level in that year, then you have to believe that he’s some reduced portion of that now. There’s no way to believe that Griffey is an exception that defies aging curves, especially given his health.
If Griffey would agree to be platooned (not a given), would agree to DH full time (not a given), Wakamatsu could keep the angry mob at bay when he pinch hits an inferior RH bat for Griffey in every high leverage situation (the boos would be remarkably loud), and Griffey’s injuries allowed him to play every single time the opposition started an RHP (the unlikeliest of them all), he’s still more like a +.5 to +1 win player. To get to +2 wins, you have to ignore a lot of things can’t be ignored.
by davidcameron on Jan 30, 2009 7:19 PM PST reply actions 6 recs
But, but....
1995!
I say sign him to a minor league deal and see how he does in Spring training. If Griffey wants to come back to Seattle, he needs to earn his spot just as someone like Mike Sweeney has to. And if Griffey really wants to retire here, he will be willing to whatever it takes. Put in an escalation clause to up his salary if he makes the ML squad at the end of Spring training.
That's a slippery slope I'd rather not start down.
Can you imagine the newspaper headlines that would pop up if they NRI’d him and then cut him?
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
Not really
1. The 89/11 isn’t actually that difficult to accomplish. Last year, Eric Hinske batted 375 times vs. Righties, and 57 versus Lefties. That’s 87%, that’d be close enough.
2. Leverage isn’t that important, a homerun hit in the first inning counts every bit as much as one hit in the 8th. He would still have plenty of opportunities to have high leverage at bats, since most closers are right handed and (theoretically) Griffey wouldn’t be making any starts against lefties, so he would at least be available to pinch hit for those.
3. Since 1999, Griffey has posted an OPS above .800 against lefties only 3 times. 3 times in 10 years, and came within .100 points of his OPS vs. righties twice (once in ‘03, in which he had just over 200 PA, and in ’05). The struggles against left handed pitching aren’t new
4. You’re right, they’re not the same, and I can’t answer this with anything except that Griffey is still mostly a pull hitter, so at least Safeco would play to his strength.
5. In Frank Thomas’ age 39 season, he put up a .277/.377 /.480 /.857. Willie Mays put up a .291/.390/.506/.896. Not perfect comparisons, and certainly, baseball is littered with players that lost it at 38, but there are several that played capably after 40 as well. I disregarded any rejuvenation Jr. might get from DHing in the post, but the fact is, it should keep him healthy enough to make 5 or so starts a week, excluding any maliciously placed foot lockers. It’s also worth noting that he started 130+ games each of the last 2 years, so he at least has been able to take the field pretty often recently.
Griffey allowed himself to be platooned (if lightly) and pinch hit for in Chicago, and his agent has publicly acknowledged that Griffey would be willing to take a mostly DH Junior Realistic.
by Malcontent1 on Jan 31, 2009 12:19 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Griffey wouldn't last to see a closer because any manager worth his salt would/will bring in a LOOGY to face him
in the 6th – 8th innings.
The Mays and Thomas aren’t any comparisons, much less ‘not perfect’ ones. Look at what Thomas and Mays did from age 36-8 compared to Griffey. You might as well have brought up Barry Bonds as an example that Griffey can hit at age 39. Also, studies suggest that positional players that move to DH do not get a hitting bonus. In fact, they lose about 5 runs per 700 PA off their bat.
OK....
I was actually inferring that Griffey would come in to face closers on days he was resting against lefties. And occasionally he would occasionally make to the end of close games he started in.
Frank Thomas
’04 .271/ .434/.563/.997 (74 G) .283 BABiP
’05 .219/ .315/.590/.905(34 G) .169 BABiP
’06 .270/ .381/.545/.926 .247 BABiP
Willie Mays
’68 .289/.372/.488/.860 .303 BABiP
’69 .283/.362/.437/.799 .313 BABiP
’70 .291/.390/.506/.896 .303 BABiP
Ken Griffey Jr.
’06 .252/.316/.486/.802 .248 BABiP
’07 .277/.372/.496/.868 .284 BABiP
’08 .249/.353/.424/.778 .269 BABiP
So yeah, Thomas was better, but the comparison to Mays stands up allright. And I was suggesting that Griffey play roughly 370 PA in the DH slot, so that would only be about 2.5 runs. Also, Griffey has batted .290/.363/.492/.855 with a .302 BABiP over 77 PA in the last 3 years. Small sample, true, but it is an improvement over his overall 3 year line, and of the 19 starts at DH, 9 were against lefties.
by Malcontent1 on Jan 31, 2009 1:08 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think the Mays comparison is still flawed because you're comparing across eras using raw stats.
The run scoring environment in the late 60s/early 70s was drastically different than it is now. When you also consider that May has an OPS .120 points higher than Griffey in that environment and I’d argue that comparing the two actually does your argument more harm than good.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 31, 2009 1:17 AM PST up reply actions
OK, those comparisons weren't the best idea ever
Dave Winfield would be better;
age 36 .927 OPS
age 37 didn’t play
age 38 .790 OPS
age 39 .798 OPS
once again, the league wasn’t quite as offense heavy as it is now, but at least the OPS is pretty close. You can believe the freak knee injury held Griffey back some in ’08 or not. I should stop arguing this particular point.
by Malcontent1 on Jan 31, 2009 2:10 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You are really good at this. The initial post and following sparring has been as quality as anything I've read.
Also the discussion has been top flight with a dose of humility as well, textbook form. If Griffey were signed tomorrow I’d be ok with it, up to this point the only positives to pluck at were rather lazy in the form of “good for ticket sales” type.
Your position is not unassailable, if there is such a beast on LL or any baseball blog I’ve read, but as well defined and defended as anything I’ve read to date. Rare form and aside from a minor blemish this is among the finest comment threads I’ve read on any post. As an avid reader, thank you. (I prefer e-mail for compliments, but you’ve declined to post an address).
They have a handy statistic called OPS+ which is far far superior than using OPS
when we’re talking about things like mid-80s versus late-00s.
And the amount of times that Griffey would get to PH against a RH closer because he was sitting against any LH starter isn’t going to be enough to make up the lowered average leverage throughout. Just using the Hinske example that you yourself provided for platooning, his average LI faced roughly cut about 5 points of his wOBA. Leverage is important. Ignoring or dismissing it is foolhardy.
Really
1. Hinske is the perfect example of what I’m talking about. When he was killing the ball in April, Joe Maddon couldn’t find it in his heart to pinch-hit for him. Because his overall numbers were so good, he was only pinch hit for twice in April. Once he cooled off a bit, Maddon became extremely strict about not letting him face lefties (in May, he went 9 straight starts without finishing a game), and they still only managed an 87/13 split. Look through other platoons, and you’ll find that the LH guy still faces LH pitching about 14-18% of the time.
2. Leverage is important. A home run in the first inning counts just as much as one in the 8th, but a solo home run does not count the same as a three run home run. If you’re extremely strict about not letting Jr face a LH reliever, he’s going to get selected out of lots of ABs with men on base. Look, I’m not this making up – go look up the LIs for hitters with extreme splits, especially platooned ones. The range is .85 to .95, and that’s not a coincidence. Extreme platoon hitters produce in lower than average leveraged situations. That makes them less valuable.
3. Griffey’s platoon splits have dramatically shifted in the last several years. You cannot argue that Griffey has always displayed this RH/LH split level. It’s not true.
4. Sure, Safeco is a good park for Griffey. But the point still stands – Cincy/NL is more favorable than Seattle/AL. That has to be factored in.
5. There is no “DH rejuvenation”. DH’s actually hit worse than when they play the field. As for Mays and Thomas, well, they don’t really have much relevance here. No one is saying that it’s impossible that Griffey will hit well – we’re just saying that there’s no reason to expect him to. Probability and possibility are not the same.
If you adjust your analysis to make up for the few shortcomings I pointed out, you’ll come to the same conclusion – +.5 to +1 win.
by davidcameron on Jan 31, 2009 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
The DH rejuvination I was referring to
was strictly regarding his ability to make starts, not what effect it would have on his production in those starts.
Specifically continuing with the Eric Hinske example, he posted a pLI of .97, compared to the team leader Carlos Pena, who had a pLI of 1.11. That’s not a massive gap, especially when you consider that Hinske saw about 330 of his 430 plate appearances in the 6th, 7th, & 8th spots in the batting order, compared to Pena, who saw almost all of his plate appearances in the 3rd, 4th, & 5th spots. Those spots in the order would generally hold more leverage anyways. Theoretically, Griffey would bat 3rd or 5th against right handed pitching. If I’m incorrect about the average leverage index of those spots, then I’m sorry, I don’t know where I would find average leverage for spots in the batting order or if it even has much affect, that’s just an assumption. It also occurs to me that most players who have large platoon splits don’t see much time in the (presumably) higher leverage order spots: 3, 4, 5. The one’s I can think of: Werth, Hinske, Ethier, Branyan, didn’t see much time in the middle part of the line up while they were being platooned.
Griffey’s 107 OPS+ in 2007 was his 3rd highest since 2001. His 86 OPS+ in ‘08 was better than his ’01, ’02, and his ’04, and equal to his ’06. I didn’t say Griffey had always been vulnerable to lefties. But he has been over the last 10 seasons, with notable exceptions in ’00, ’03, ’05, and ’07.
Some splits information
Griffey, 2000-2005: .960 vs. righties, .804 vs. lefties
Griffey, 2006-2008: .886 vs. righties, .688 vs. lefties
(1612, 772, 1105, and 565 PA sample sizes)
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 31, 2009 5:23 PM PST up reply actions
My point was
that Griffey had a tougher time vs. lefties for a long time. Between 2000 & 2005, he had a .156 point gap. 2006-2008, the gap widened to .198. So yes, he’s getting worse against lefties faster than righties. But part of that gap is due to a .228 BABiP against lefties over the same span, whereas his BABiP against lefties between 2000 and 2005 was a more robust (I’m completely guessing here, as I want to go to be, I’ll verify it later) ~.270. Unless his decline in BABiP is due to a nearly complete collapse in his hitting ability, which I have to doubt since his strike out rates have remained pretty constant (another stat I’ll verify tomorrow, however, I did at least a cursory check of both estimates) then he should regress to the mean any day now.
by Malcontent1 on Feb 1, 2009 2:04 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Leverage by batting order slot
It was an interesting thought, so I had David Appelman run a query for me (side note: I love working for FanGraphs and having access to this stuff) – the LI for #s 4-9 are basically identical, ranging from 1.042 for a #5 hitter to 1.004 for a #9 hitter. So, the line-up spot wouldn’t be a factor.
by davidcameron on Jan 31, 2009 6:23 PM PST up reply actions
Speaking of Points 1, 2, 3 & 4
If memory serves the U.S.S. Mariner pimped Geoff Jenkins just last year and disliked the same arguments I had for Jenkins. I was banned after just one post but let the record show Jenkins finished .130/.160/.130 vs. LHP last year.
If you were banned after one post on USSM, you must have been a pretty big ass in that one post.
And if you have a beef with USSM, take it up with them. Don’t bring your baggage here, we have enough already.
Have you found my luggage yet?
re: Geoff Jenkins… while similarly old and lefthanded, IIRC Geoff Jenkins is a bit more mobile in the field and a little less washed up at the plate than Junior. While comparisons certainly have some value, comparing Jenkins and Griffey is a bit too apples/oranges, just like the Mariners’ needs and expectations in 2008 are apples to 2009’s oranges.
You do realize that
Last year, Jenkins’ slash line against righties was .256/.313/.415 while Griffey batted .272/.369/.462 with a lower BABiP right? How is Jenkins less washed up at the plate than Junior?
by Malcontent1 on Jan 31, 2009 12:22 AM PST up reply actions
This is by far the best reasoning I have seen for bringing Jr back.
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
Best counter-establishment position post I've read in the short time I've been reading here.
And nice follow through.
Like another poster wrote earlier in this thread
Other Griffey-related posts in the past have conditioned me to no longer bother reading them. Boy was I wrong here. I only just now read this thread and I was very impressed. This should be mandatory reading for every Mariner that has an opinion about whether Griffey should return or not (meaning all of them).
As long as you include Dave Cameron's rebuttals
Because, as Dave pointed out, while nicely put together, there are holes in the analysis that do undermine the conclusion.
Absolutely
I sent the link to the entire thread.
by Vox Vocis on Feb 1, 2009 5:56 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Hey, I seriously thought that guy was trolling. I admit I was wrong.
What I’m curious about is which of you created a separate account just to post this link. Why not just post it under your regular handle? It’s not like anyone who matters would crucify you for it… unless this is some attempt at another LL meta-game.
This is a sweet first comment.
Small and manageable sig
by .Taylor on Feb 2, 2009 6:56 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Incentives
From what I understand, you can’t have contract incentives based on production, such as Homeruns, Batting Average, etc…
It would have to be based on Games or AB/PA.
Dogfood Gangstas
Canned or Dry,
We Neva Die.
I didn't know about that...
That does throw up a roadblock, I suppose you could put one in for 400 PA but beyond that, it would create issues. I know you can throw some in for awards, because I’ve heard of them being random additions to players contracts. Maybe you could give him a incentive for if the team reaches the playoffs.
I believe it's PT milestones and award voting only
which kind of hurts the premise of an incentive-laden contract, but if you give him bonuses at say 350, 400, 450, 500 PAs, it should work fine.
There’s no way they hold him out to avoid the bonus at the end of the season since A. it would be the end of his career, and B.the fans would absolutely skewer them for doing something like that, unless he’s playing awful, in which case he’s not going to hit the incentive milestones anyway.
by seattlebruin on Feb 2, 2009 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
Sadly
I keep reading the fanpost side bar
Why Ken Griffey Jr. could be good for the Mariners next year
by Malcontent1 1 day ago
as
Why Ken Griffey Jr. could be a Malcontent for the Mariners next year
He COULD be good in that role.
That being said, we just signed Russ Branyan for less than two million, who not only can do pretty much what Griffey does at the plate, but can a) play 1B OK and b) play 3B in a pinch.
I think Dave’s argument as to Griffey’s true value is about right. You have to devalue performance going from NL Central→AL West and GABP→Safeco, etc., plus he’s 39, an age where yes, even HOFers can easily be done- your comps like Winfield and Mays are poorly chosen because they basically had no significant injury history before their late 30s, which is NOT true for Griffey at all. The problem is Griffey shouldn’t play a position at this point in his career. Basically, he’s a marginally better version of Carl Everett at this point in his career- the best case is he’s a platoon DH who is a win above replacement, the worst case is he collapses into uselessness. As such, Griffey represents ~free talent (seeing as we just got guys like Russ Branyan and Chris Shelton with similar upside for nothing). The thing is at best, he’s a one year stopgap ala Branyan, but let’s put it this way: if Branyan has a horrible April/May while, say, Mike Carp or Greg Halman starts raking in Tacoma, it’s going to be pretty easy to send Branyan out on waivers and adjust the roster. Griffey? Maybe not so much.
All told, I’m just not a fan of a DH who is as limited as Griffey is, given that he is a significant risk to be a complete non-entity, and given that at best, he is a fill-in for 2009. There’s no real reason to prefer him to other role players who have the ability to play defensive positions, or to signing or trading for someone who WOULD represent longer-term solutions to Mariner needs.
by eponymous_coward on Feb 2, 2009 4:40 PM PST reply actions
Signing Griffey seems like a counter action to everything the new FO has been building this off season.
Taken as a whole, the FO has made moves for undervalued players, low risk/mid-high level reward players, and stop gap pick-ups, while building toward a future. Signing Griffey seems a last resort option to appease the lowest common denominator.
If Griffey was to sign as a bench player and everyone was on board with him being a part-time player for one last farewell tour. The whole story could be done and we could move on. However, bringing Griffey back would create more problems than it would solve. It opens up the situation of: "If he only played everyday…".
Unless Griffey is truly horrible or seriously injured, we would have to do this whole thing again next year.
Personally, I am tired of the past. When Griffey officially retires the team can have a week of Griffey days at SafeCo. I go to 2-3 games a week and I would cheer each time.
I want the FO to make moves that will push this team forward not backwards! I am so excited about what this FO is doing and where the team is going. I believe there are better days ahead. I believe this team can be taken seriously again as early as 2011, and be a preseason favorite by 2012.
I saw Griffey play as a Mariner, for 8 years. It was awesome. Those memories are good enough for me. Why can’t they be good enough for everyone else?
"He's not likely to get 30 Home Runs, MVP, or Silver Slugger"
I’m an insufferable homer still living in the glory days of the 90s with Griffey, A-Rod, Edgar, Buher, Randy, Cora and the like, which inclines me to respectfully disagree!
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
Disagree away
just don’t be too disappointed when it doesn’t even come close to happening.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
But what if he DOES hit 30 HRs???
It’d be a welcome surprise for everyone…
This signature space for rent.
by PositivePaul on Feb 12, 2009 4:47 PM PST up reply actions
If he hits 30 HR's I will be first in line to shake his hand and call myself out for being an idiot
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

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