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Burying the lede

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/26/sports/baseball/26review.html?_r=1&hp

 

The hallmark of the Yankees who won World Series championships in 1996, 1998, 1999 and 2000 was gritty team play: they weren’t famous for a roster of flashy superstars or power hitters; rather, they were a resolute band of brothers, who put collective play above individual stats — an ensemble distinguished by its chemistry on the field and in the clubhouse, a team renowned for its resourcefulness, its determination and its ability to grind out win after win after win.

Star-divide

Let's see:

- Jorge Posada

- Tino Martinez

- Derek Jeter

- Bernie Williams

- David Cone

- Andy Pettititte

- Roger Clemens

- Mariano Rivera

 

Yeah, it's clearly a team full of Willie Bloomquists.

However, after the opening paragraph and into it, the reveiwer FINALLY gets it. It's just irritating that it takes them a few paragraphs.

 

Torre and Verducci note that as the core of the old guard from the championship years dwindled — Tino Martinez, Scott Brosius, Chuck Knoblauch and Paul O’Neill were all history by 2002 — the front office tended to turn to imported All-Stars, who failed to congeal into an effective ensemble. The farm system, which had produced the likes of Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Bernie Williams and Rivera, was increasingly neglected, and Steinbrenner began to indulge his taste for what Torre calls “big boppers” like Jason Giambi, who the manager felt “wasn’t part of what we prided ourselves on: playing well defensively.”

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Someone needs to bury the lead

in Silva and hope that gets out of his contract.

I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE!!! I DRINK IT UP!!

by abender20 on Jan 26, 2009 11:12 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Weren't Cone, Tino, and Clemens imports?

And I still can’t believe we traded Tino away. And I can’t believe he rarely gets brought up as part of the list of “worst trades in Mariners history” discussions.

by Wilder. on Jan 26, 2009 11:48 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

No.

Tino Martinez was a mediocre player, he had two seasons in his career where he was legitimately a good player, a few more where he was ok, and several others where he was anywhere from mediocre to flat out bad.

by JI on Jan 26, 2009 12:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Your standards are high...

Tino Martinez only had 2 outstanding seasons – 1995 and 1997 – and several good ones. His reputation is Yankee-inflated for sure, but he combined an above average bat with a plus defensive contribution for several years. The advanced metrics don’t go back beyond 2002, but UZR/150 had him at +6.6 and +7.9 in 2003 and 2004 before dropping off in his final season.

Unless someone has a persuasive argument why he would have been worse in his prime offensive seasons than he was at age 35 and 36, I’m pretty comfortable tacking on 5-10 runs above average to his offensive output through the late 90s. That gives him 2 great years, 2 all-star worthy campaigns, and 5 seasons where you can call him a comfortably above average regular.

Except for 2000 I have a lot of trouble finding the “several other” seasons where Tino was a BAD player. He was below average that season but it’s also the only time in his career he posted an OPS+ under 100 with regular playing time. Factor in defense and you’ve got a guy who spent his entire career as an above average player.

Overrated, maybe. Mediocre, no.

by slamcactus on Jan 26, 2009 3:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you.

My analysis, that I decided not to post, was much less in-depth, but the bottom line is that Tino was not mediocre.

1998 and 2001 were no slouch seasons, either.

by Wilder. on Jan 26, 2009 3:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Just as long as you're taking away 10-15 runs a year for his position.
Factor in defense and you’ve got a guy who spent his entire career as an above average player.

No. Tino Martinez in fact spent his entire career as pretty close to an exactly average player.

by Matthew on Jan 26, 2009 3:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

How so?

I actually was using wOBA, and then put it into the terms I thought JL was using. I was taking away 12 runs for position and conservatively tacking on 5 runs for defense on the seasons I actually calculated. Tino was something like a 4 win player in 1995 and about a +5 win player in 1997 using that formulation, with ~3-3.5 seasons in 1996 and 1998, and a few ~2.2-+2.7 win seasons mixed in, depending what you think about his defense.

Where does he become below average? Fangraphs puts him at a .350 career wOBA, or about 8 runs above league average per season. Positional adjustment puts him at -4 offensively for his career. If you accept 5 < x < +10 as his defensive level, a .350 wOBA puts his career total at something like +2.1-2.6 as a career average WAR.

Where am I missing Tino Martinez, the below-average player?

by slamcactus on Jan 26, 2009 4:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

League and park adjusted OBP for Tino's career was .340.

He was worth about 5 runs over average with his bat.
+20 runs for replacement
+5 for defense
-12.5 for position.

by Matthew on Jan 26, 2009 4:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm...

assuming you mean wOBA…

1 question, and 1 point.

Question: is that a Yankee Stadium-specific adjustment, or does it include his several seasons spent in the Kingdome as well?

Point: that’s a career average, which includes his decline. Even if you accept that as his total value, Tino was a very good player for a good stretch of time, and a great player for a limited stretch.

by slamcactus on Jan 26, 2009 4:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually..

.strike great. He had 1 truly great season, 1 very good season, and several above average seasons. I have trouble calling a guy with that track record mediocre.

Nobody’s saying he deserves to be in the hall, I just think JI overstated his case.

by slamcactus on Jan 26, 2009 4:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No. wOBA is scaled to OBP. I didn't care to manually calculate league wOBA for Tino's years

so I just used league OBP in lieu. Each season is park and league adjusted, it’s listed on B-Ref.

Of course it’s a career line. That’s what we were discussing. You cannot just move targets because the facts show you were wrong. If you have trouble calling someone who was likely a below average player for his career mediocre, that’s your prerogative.

by Matthew on Jan 26, 2009 4:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

First, it’s entirely possible to respond to people without being a dick.

Second, a drawn-out decline phase drawing a guy under the magical +2 WAR line for his career doesn’t negate a solid block of productive seasons in which he contributed meaningfully to very good teams.

by slamcactus on Jan 26, 2009 4:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Since when...

do we only talk about players in terms of their entire career arc? If Tino’s overrated, it’s because of the time he spent on the Yankees winning World Series titles. I don’t see too many people waxing poetic about Tino Martinez, St. Louis Cardinal.

by slamcactus on Jan 26, 2009 4:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Since when? Since you made this comment:
Factor in defense and you’ve got a guy who spent his entire career as an above average player.

And if you think me correcting you about the stats is being a dick, then, again, that’s your call.

by Matthew on Jan 26, 2009 5:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...

and I backed off that comment when you brought in league context. I was using a league average wOBA marker of between .332-.335, which it’s been the past few years. Fortunately for me, this is a freaking comments section on a blog, and previous posts are not sworn statements taken under oath.

The 700PAs Tino accrued at the beginning of his career or his time spent with the Devil Rays or Cardinals (or his farewell tour with the Yankees) have nothing to do with his legacy and whether or not he is overrated, but those things account for a significant portion of his career wOBA.

If you look at his prime seasons, the ones for which he’s remembered, Tino Martinez is not a player I consider mediocre. If you disagree, that’s fine. If you want to say that my opinion is invalid because I said the word ‘entire’ in a previous post and you think that’s set up a binding framework for some sort of debate you’ve created, well then that’s really weird.

by slamcactus on Jan 26, 2009 5:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Read:

“I’m wrong, but I hate admitting that, so the things I wrote beforehand don’t count. I win!”

by Graham on Jan 26, 2009 7:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So in conclusion

Tino Martinez was a pretty good player for a few seasons, a pretty mediocre player for a few more seasons, and somewhere in the vicinity of average for his career.

by Jeff on Jan 26, 2009 9:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It all comes down to what you think of his defense

I think there is reason to believe that he was pretty good over there.

by Jeff on Jan 26, 2009 9:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

If you have him a +5 for his career he’s below average, if you think he was more than that well then he was average or maybe a a bit better.

by JI on Jan 26, 2009 9:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Jeff is such a diplomatic fellow

A sweet-tempered peacemaker.

Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism

by esoteric on Jan 27, 2009 4:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bull. Sheet.

The Tino trade IS top 2 or 3 in my list of worst. M’s. trades. ever.

Imagine if the 1997 M’s had Jeff Nelson in the ‘pen. And Shiggy (read Thiel’s book for more on this). But the fact that they unnecessarily added Jeff Nelson into that trade (I was PISSED at the time about this) led to the charley foxtrot known as Slocumb…

This signature space for rent.

by PositivePaul on Jan 26, 2009 3:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know how you could objectively look at the players involved

and look at the money saved and say that was a disastrous trade.

by JI on Jan 26, 2009 8:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's see . . .

Off the top of my head, Jones/Sherrill/Tillman/Butler/Mickolio for Bedard is #1, followed by Lowe/Varitek for Slocumb, followed by Swift/Jackson/Burba for Kevin Mitchell and Mike Remlinger (though flipping Mitchell for Norm was a nice recovery), followed by Guillen for Santiago/Gonzalez, followed by Cruz Jr. for Timlin/Spoljaric (not because Cruz Jr. ended up having such a great career, but because his value was so much higher at that point, we didn’t have a replacement for him, and the pitchers we got for him didn’t do the job) . . . at worst, the Tino/Nelson deal is the sixth-worst in M’s history.

by The Ancient Mariner on Jan 27, 2009 11:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget Davit Ortiz for Dave Hollins

Although at the time, no one thought Ortiz was going to be as good as he ended up being.

by Vatinius on Jan 27, 2009 1:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ster-ling Hitch-cock

Clap clap clap clap clap clap.

Wasn’t that bad a trade actually. All three of the takebacks provided some value.

by Paytheline on Jan 26, 2009 1:25 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I like Verducci's own review

“"This is the result of hundreds of interviews with not only Torre but players, front-office executives, executives of other teams, players on other teams,” Verducci told SI.com. “It’s a 477-page book about 12 years of baseball history. Again, it’s not a Joe Torre first-person book, so there’s a lot of reporting that’s presented in there in addition to Joe’s insights. Smart people will judge the book upon actually reading it and not reading preliminary reports prior to its publication. Once you understand the context of the book you understand the information. It’s not a tell-all book. Anybody who reads it will understand that.” "

by msb on Jan 26, 2009 1:46 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

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