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Another Comparison

Jim Rice, average career wins/season: 3.00 (assuming average defence).

Player X, average career wins/season: 4.55.

Star-divide

Player X is Adrian Beltre.

What the hell why is Rice in the Hall?

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Positional adjustments!

Rice’s defense was probably well below average too, so calling him a 3 win player is generous. You could come up with a list of dozens of minor stars from 1974 – who were better players than Rice.

by JI on Jan 15, 2009 1:19 PM PST reply actions  

Whoa.

Beltre’s 2004 was the best (in terms of wins) non-Bonds season in the last 7 years. A-Rod and Pujols’ best seasons in that time-span barely come within a win of it. Wow.

by Terminator_X on Jan 15, 2009 2:04 PM PST reply actions  

Because Beltre

has yet to go through the decline phase of his career that will dilute his career wins/seasons

Don't believe the lies Bill!!!! look at the sparkly ERA!!! Sparkly, Sparkly!!! - McCovey Chronicles

by Trenchtown on Jan 15, 2009 2:12 PM PST reply actions  

It's part of it

Don't believe the lies Bill!!!! look at the sparkly ERA!!! Sparkly, Sparkly!!! - McCovey Chronicles

by Trenchtown on Jan 15, 2009 3:01 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm confused

Don't believe the lies Bill!!!! look at the sparkly ERA!!! Sparkly, Sparkly!!! - McCovey Chronicles

by Trenchtown on Jan 15, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions  

So what would Jim Rice's

average career wins/season through age 29 be?

Don't believe the lies Bill!!!! look at the sparkly ERA!!! Sparkly, Sparkly!!! - McCovey Chronicles

by Trenchtown on Jan 15, 2009 3:24 PM PST up reply actions  

I think that is a better comparison

I also think that if the Red Sox Nation had never emerged then Rice would not have made the hall. He was pretty stagnant in voting % until after the Red Sox won the World Series

Don't believe the lies Bill!!!! look at the sparkly ERA!!! Sparkly, Sparkly!!! - McCovey Chronicles

by Trenchtown on Jan 15, 2009 3:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Fear

Apparently the idea that a hitter scares a pitcher makes him HOF-worthy.

by tait644 on Jan 15, 2009 2:17 PM PST reply actions  

Why do they matter though?

Defense has never been a qualification for Hall of Fame. If I were deciding between which guy to have on my team, I’d probably go for Beltre, but if I’m deciding who’s going into the Hall its gonna be Rice. Actually, if I’m deciding who’s going in the Hall of Fame it’d probably be someone like RA Dickey because I don’t really give a damn about the hall and it’d probably make him happy or something.

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 15, 2009 7:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Defense has never been a qualification for Hall of Fame.

Wrong.

by JI on Jan 15, 2009 8:10 PM PST up reply actions  

really? well, OK

like I said I don’t care much about it, wouldn’t go there if I ever had the misfortune of ending up in Cooperstown and haven’t followed the induction process. Based on what I’d read here and elsewhere I thought it was all about players arbitrary milestones (20 wins, 3000 hits, 100rbi/season x times) with little regard for actual player impact on a team.

So yeah, whatever. If they care about defense bully for them and I stand corrected.

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 16, 2009 6:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Everytime you have a guy similar Ryne Sandberg or Gary Carter

he’s being elected in large part for his defense, because that player certainly does not have a the offensive resume to gain entry.

by JI on Jan 16, 2009 10:19 AM PST up reply actions  

It also occurred to me that

if you give Adrian 4 more seasons (to catch up to Rice’s total of 16) of his career average .270/.330/.460, then he would have very similar numbers offensively; more doubles and stolen bases, fewer homeruns, rbis, and runs. But then I think Adrian will play well beyond his age 33 season. Plus, he’s played most of the last 2 seasons with a bad thumb/shoulder and been unlucky BABIP-wise, so his offensive numbers could still improve over the next couple years. But does anybody think he’ll end up in the hall of fame unless he does something like end up in the top-10 in doubles? (30 per year through his age 39 season would give him 621, 3 behind Hank Aaron at 10th place)

by Malcontent1 on Jan 15, 2009 2:35 PM PST reply actions  

Positonal adjustments and replacement level

from year to year and era to era would vary wouldn’t it?

Don't believe the lies Bill!!!! look at the sparkly ERA!!! Sparkly, Sparkly!!! - McCovey Chronicles

by Trenchtown on Jan 15, 2009 3:39 PM PST reply actions  

Well, yes.

Replacement level was worse when Rice played.

Then again, so was ‘average’.

by Graham MacAree on Jan 15, 2009 3:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Also:

Jim Rice going into the HOF is just par for the course, considering:

Fred Lindstrom
George Kelly
Chick Hafey
Jim Bottomley
Frank Chance

Basically, the HOF is kind of like Gold Glove voting- some good choices, and then every now and then they do the “WTF?!?!?” equivalent of giving Raffy Palmeiro a Gold Glove for playing mostly at DH.

by eponymous_coward on Jan 15, 2009 4:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Morneau reminds me of a sort of modern-day Jim Rice

He’s a good hitter and has almost no defensive skills, but somehow the press has taken a liking to him, he’s gotten some ridiculous MVP voting finishes, and has a reputation that seems to outstrip his actual value. If Morneau manages to improve just a little at the plate, it seems like we could be looking at a similarly erroneous “most feared hitter” argument. Never mind that there are better hitters than Morneau, just chant “most feared, most feared, most feared” and then compare him to Jim Rice, Hall of Fame Inductee.

by ubelmann on Jan 15, 2009 5:19 PM PST reply actions  

It's funny you say that

because I have Morneau pegged for a big year next year. Strikeouts were down, walks were up, hit a lot of doubles. I think he is going to hit next year like Teixiera did this year

Don't believe the lies Bill!!!! look at the sparkly ERA!!! Sparkly, Sparkly!!! - McCovey Chronicles

by Trenchtown on Jan 15, 2009 9:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Fear

Number of intentional walks in Rice’s five best years: 29

Adrian Beltre in the last five years: 31

Doesn’t mean much (read: anything), I know, but I thought it was funny.

by Teej on Jan 15, 2009 5:28 PM PST reply actions  

Which brings me to a question:

Is the intentional walk a bigger part of the game nowadays than it was in the ‘70s and ’80s? I would assume yes, but I’m sure Bonds throws all the numbers out of whack.

by Teej on Jan 15, 2009 5:30 PM PST up reply actions  

I must be said though

That Adrian Beltre acquired 10 walks last year while batting ahead of the likes of Brad Wilkerson, Jose Vidro, Jose Lopez, and Jeff Clement

by Malcontent1 on Jan 15, 2009 11:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Yup.

I’m not trying to imply that it means anything. Just laughing.

by Teej on Jan 16, 2009 12:01 AM PST up reply actions  

As a common noun, theater is far more common in American English.

But many theaters spell it theatre in their names. So . . . it’s a clusterfuck.

by Teej on Jan 15, 2009 11:46 PM PST up reply actions  

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