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Michael Young reportedly demands to be traded

Th_buckykatt_tiny by Adam J. Morris on Comment 113 comments

Thought the M's peeps might be interested in this...

Michael Young has reportedly demanded to be traded in the aftermath of being asked to move from shortstop to third base.

I know this would make Jeff sad, because it means that there won't be 19 times per season that he can write "Michael Young -- 'SS' " in the game day thread.

Unless he were to be traded to Anaheim or Oakland.

Or, hey...maybe Seattle would want him...he had a great relationship with Don Wakamatsu.  He could take over for Betancourt.

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But hes a gold glove winner

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 11, 2009 8:34 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, he's probably better than Yuni.

On the overration scale, where does this guy fit?

Big Z is the MAN.

by Taylor H on Jan 11, 2009 8:43 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Im confused

By your logic, wouldn’t it make Jeff happy because he would get to write “SS” 162 times per season vs. just 19?

by Karma Police on Jan 11, 2009 8:52 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He makes three inferences:

the first one being that Young could go to anyone, therefore, most likely not an AL West team; the second being that Young could go to Anaheim or Oakland; the final one being that he could go to Seattle.

I thought the same thing at first, but then saw that he saved the talk about Young coming to ‘us’ for last.

Too many puppies....

by amanalone11 on Jan 11, 2009 9:06 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Young is gooood

I would love to see Young in a M’s uniform next year. He would be a perfect #2 hitter with Ichiro batting leadoff. This would allow Lopez to move down to sixth or so, opening up RBI ops.

-Zach Sanders
http://www.mlbnotebook.com

by mlbnotebook on Jan 11, 2009 9:06 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

His contract isn't quite that bad
Young, who holds a full no-trade clause, is owed approximately $60 million over the next five seasons, some of it deferred. His contract is for $80 million over five years, but after agreeing to the extension in March 2007, he received some of the money the past two seasons as a bonus.

Link

UZR seems a little fickle on his defense. He’s either only a few runs below average or one of the worst SS in the league. THT’s RZR and OOZ has him about league average for the last couple years. I’m not saying he’s good but he might not be as horrendous as we all say he is.

If Texas threw in a little cash then I’m pretty sure the M’s would think about it. It all really depends on how well you think he will age. 5 years is a brutally long contract and I’m sure no teams would be happy about taking that on. Silva is due $36 million over the next 3 years while Young is due supposedly $60 over the next 5 years. If Texas threw in around $10-20 million, I’d probably need to think about it.

Assuming he is able to be a league average hitter for the next couple years and then turns into a -5 to -10 hitter for the last couple years and he is around a -10 run defender its tough to pay much for him. He will likely be a replacement level player the last couple years of the deal.

Just to put some numbers down lets say Young is 2.5 WAR in 2009, 2 WAR in 2010, 1 WAR in 2011, and 0 WAR in 2012 and 2013. Therefore he is basically a 4.5 WAR player and assuming $5 mil/win we see that he’s worth about $22.5 million. He is owed $60 million so his net value is around -37.5 million.

Over the next 3 years I’ll say Silva will accumulate 2 WAR. That is worth about $10 million. He’s owed $36 million so he is worth around -26 million.

If Texas threw in around $10 million the deal would be about even. We have players who could fill in for Silva and provide replacement level production so his departure is not a major concern. Young will probably be decent for a couple years until Trunifel is ready to take his place. By projecting Young as 0 WAR for the last two years of the deal, we basically say that he doesn’t need to play. My projections could easily be off either way by a couple WAR depending on how you feel so Texas would probably need to throw in $0 to $20 million in the deal to make it worth it.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 11, 2009 10:43 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Silva might actually make sense for Texas too

Shorter contract, ground ball pitcher, worst rotation ever.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 11, 2009 10:44 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Because their pitching staff blows

And they need to make room on their roster for a good SS.

I don’t think they would do it but it might make sense.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 12, 2009 9:30 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why would trading for a crappy pitcher make them better?

they’d probably have an easier time giving him away for free.

by JI on Jan 12, 2009 10:04 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They are trading a crappy SS who is blocking a good prospect

Silva has value to teams with bad pitching staffs, just not much.

Also, nobody should take Young even if they gave him away for free. He’s that bad. They would need to pay around $37.5 to make a smart team take him.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 12, 2009 10:07 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If I'm the Rangers I'd rather keep Young and contend for the division

rather than trade for a shitty player like Silva and run up the white flag.

Yes, to trade Young the Rangers would need to kick in 20-30 million, however trading for Silva creates a whole new bigger problem and doesn’t solve anything.

by JI on Jan 12, 2009 10:13 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't see how trading for Silva gives them bigger problems and I'm pretty sure it helps them

solve a problem they have with their starting rotation. Texas’s SP rotation has multiple SP who are replacement level. Silva improves their rotation. Losing Young does not hurt them drastically because they have a replacement for him.

I think there might be an argument to be made that doing a trade of Young + cash for Silva would be better for them than shifting Young to 3B and hoping his defense improves.

That said, nobody wants to trade for Silva or Young. The thought probably makes M’s and Rangers fans cringe.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 12, 2009 1:48 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Young would be a league average player at third too

and he could be decent for a few more years

The best scenario for Silva is that he’s not disastrously bad this year, but given his health I’d be concern he’d have no redeeming value by years three and four. Not only that, but the Texas fanbase likes Mike Young. There’s nothing to be gained for Texas by making that trade: it’s costs them wins this year, will cost them wins in the future, and will be poorly received by their fans.

by JI on Jan 12, 2009 2:35 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You take a significant hit when moving Young to 3B

Who knows if the better defensive numbers make up for the positional adjustment.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 12, 2009 3:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's not moving to DH

when you adjust for position his value is the same

by JI on Jan 12, 2009 3:32 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shifting him to 3B is another alternative though

I guess I was mostly trying to give another option if he rules out a shift to 3B.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 12, 2009 3:38 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't get what you're getting at because if you adjust the numbers correctly that difference is something like.001 of a win

and even if you think that difference between short and third is more than what Tango thinks it is the value still fall much short of half a win,

by JI on Jan 12, 2009 3:44 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The positional adjustment between SS and 3B is 5 runs = 0.5 WAR

Anyway, my major point was that my suggestion my work if he decided not to shift positions. If he is open to shift positions to 3B then that may become a decent solution. He would be above replacement for the next couple years but he may have a difficult time being a league average 3B.

Instead of having a lousy 3B/SS option with a horrible contract they could have a lousy SP on a horrible contract. Since they have options at 3B/SS and no real options at SP it might make sense if they threw in enough cash to even the deal out. Neither side would likely do this deal but I think its a fun mental exercise to play around with to explore a player’s relative value.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 12, 2009 4:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, but when you move down the spectrum you gain points on your UZR

believe me, play around with the numbers. the system is designed to value players the same no matter where they play (as long as they aren’t playing a non-position like DH)

by JI on Jan 12, 2009 4:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah I understand that the system thinks

a player could be as valuable at SS or 3B and this is why the positional adjustment exists. I just don’t think you can switch a SS to 3B in the middle of his career and see his defense improve by around 5 runs after this transition.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 12, 2009 5:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I really don't think it translates like that for every player

especially half way through a player’s career.

Beltre is an amazing 3B (+15 runs) but wouldn’t be a +10 run SS.

Each player has a certain skill set. Each position has certain requirements This should make it non-trivial to estimate a player’s defense at a new position.

I think the positional adjustments are better thought of as an adjustment to take into account talent scarcity. I know Tango derived his by looking at players who play multiple positions but I don’t think we really understand how long or what effect it has on a player who has been a SS his entire career and then is switched to 3B.

Since we don’t know how to predict very well we can predict Young’s defense at 3B (or SS for that matter), I think its realistic to think that his defense will not improve much.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 12, 2009 5:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, but he's moving down the spectrum

not to LF, not to center, but to third. I think that’s one of the easiest transitions to project.

Unless you think that he doesn’t have the arm for the position I don’t see why he’d do anything but benefit from the move.

by JI on Jan 12, 2009 6:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm just saying that at this point in his career

SS probably have a hard time changing to 3B. The transition is relatively easy but the additional arm strength and reaction time he needs at the hot corner may not come naturally. After he did something for 20 years he was able to become below average. Now changing positions forces him to learn something new and although it should be easier to field as a 3B it might be tough for him to learn the finer points which seperate a lousy 3B from an average 3B.

He might do fine but I think the assumption that he becomes a better fielder may not be valid.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 12, 2009 8:43 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know it's a different animal

but I remember when I worked with a HS team the players always had much more trouble making throws from third than from short.

Maybe that’s the sort of thing that gets weeded out at the professional level.

by JI on Jan 13, 2009 10:39 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Could it be the 3B players

were just generally less athletic?

Or were they mostly standing still when they threw?

Or were they worried about beaning the pitcher?

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Jan 13, 2009 11:33 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Accuracy was most of the problem

I’m not athlete at all, so whatever, but when I play baseball I always find it harder to throw from third.

by JI on Jan 13, 2009 12:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well as a shortstop in softball

or a friendly game of baseball, you are not going to have the skills to get to balls overly far from you. At short, you’ll never end up making a throw while deep in the hole off to your right.

I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE!!! I DRINK IT UP!!

by abender20 on Jan 14, 2009 9:06 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

SS may make longer throws

but is a strong arm as valuable at SS than 3B.

A flowchart for fielding:
1-Initial reaction to ball hit
2-Move to field ball
3-Catch ball
4-Throw ball

These must be done in this order. If a player can not move to the ball then he can not catch the ball and therefore not throw the ball. If a player can get to the point where he can catch the ball then at least he has a chance of making the out.

The most important step to being a good SS I would say is #2 because in most cases what separates an average SS from a bad SS is range. The great SS are ones with good range and a good arm but these players are extremely rare.

At 3B, range is much less of an issue. Steps #1 and #4 are more important for a 3B because range is less important however this does not mean that steps #1 or #4 are harder for a 3B to complete. Ozzie Smith’s range at SS is wasted if he is moved to 3B because a 3B does not have time to range to his left/right to get to a ball. A 3B usually only has time to make a couple steps to field a ball before it is past him. SS often sometimes cover ~2x the distance before a ball reaches them. While the throws a 3B makes are easier than the throws a SS makes, since 3B do not need exceptional range the group of 3B we see in the game today have good arms because this is a tool that will help them add more value to their defense.

(To be clear this post has nothing really to do with Micheal Young but more to do with relative value of skills at different positions around the diamond.)

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 14, 2009 11:02 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought about referencing that thread

Its funny if you look at the posts because I ask why range for 3B is less important that SS.

I guess what I’m saying is its hard to find a player with both good range and a good arm. It is much easier to find a player with a good arm and average range or vis versa. The player with the good range and average arm should play SS and the player with the average range and good arm should play 3B. The throws from 3B are easier than from SS but range is probably more important than arm strength at SS. Of course skills aren’t divided up into easy to recognize categories (good, average, bad) so there will always be cases where it is difficult to tell what should be done.

Simply said, individual player talents are crucial when examining which position a player should play. It is not enough to say that one position is easier than another position (positional adjustment). Positional adjustment and viewing a player’s talents are both needed to try to estimate a player’s defensive value at a new position. Regrettably, we do not have a good way to measure many of these talents so we need to rely on scouting and combine it with the player’s defensive stats.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 14, 2009 12:50 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's not an elite groundball pitcher with incredibly high GB/FB

but he is above average and out of 99 pitchers last year with 150 IP or higher, Silva is 37th.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 12, 2009 9:49 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Man, what is Texas going to do without its team leader?

Everyone just plays by their own rules and marches to their own tune? That’s -10 wins right there.

by JLC on Jan 11, 2009 9:39 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

By the way, if Texas decides to trade Young to Oakland or Anaheim

be certain that you guys find a way to make both teams lose. Actually, better make it a 3-way clusterfuck of talent swapping.

by JLC on Jan 11, 2009 9:43 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Could Happen

Beane seems like a guy who likes to parrrtay.

-Zach Sanders
http://www.mlbnotebook.com

by mlbnotebook on Jan 11, 2009 9:44 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

On the one hand, I'm sort of amused/bemused that LL is now laying down OT commenting rules.

On the other hand, I’m a law-and-order guy so I approve.
On the mutated third hand I conceal under my shirt Total Recall-style, I’m glad that I don’t normally fall afoul of these rules during the normal course of posting anyway.

Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism

by esoteric on Jan 12, 2009 1:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There have always been rules.

OT was never supposed to be a free-for-all and the rules apply site-wide and address issues seen outside OT as well.

by Matthew on Jan 12, 2009 2:45 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Would I be wrong in saying that the OT thread is a game thread without a game

and such things that wouldn’t be tolerated in a GT shouldn’t be tolerated in the OT?

by JI on Jan 12, 2009 2:47 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would say that's along the right track,

but not nearly strict enough. Game threads have a specific set of rules governing them.

Really, the recently posted guidelines should be enough for everyone.

by Matthew on Jan 12, 2009 3:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd say he is a potiential Lopez replacement

but if he’s pissed at being asked to move to third, I’d assume that same reaction to moving back to second.

by PascoJoe on Jan 11, 2009 9:46 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lopez will make one-tenth of Young's salary next year.

$16 million vs. $1.6 million, according to Cot’s.

by Teej on Jan 12, 2009 8:26 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jose Lopez is also 10x more awesome than Michael Young

it appears to be one of those weird inversely proportional relationships

by seattlebruin on Jan 12, 2009 8:49 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I might be off on these numbers.

Some of the money has already been paid, Dave says. So if you’re trading for him, I guess it’s 5/60 or 5/65 instead of 5/80.

by Teej on Jan 12, 2009 9:22 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wonderful

Michael Young demanding to be traded is going to be as effective as me demanding to be signed to an MLB contract. It isn’t going to happen. No takers.

by katal on Jan 11, 2009 10:14 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My first thought was "Sabean!"

But now that he’s got Renteria, yeah, I don’t see a buyer out there.

by Teej on Jan 12, 2009 8:26 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Me too!

The problem for the Rangers is that the teams that aren’t locked into their shortstops either have smart FO’s or not enough money. If this had happened last year, Seattle would have been a prime spot.

by GhettoBear04 on Jan 12, 2009 8:46 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For a terrible GM, Sabean did a hell of a job stockpiling talent in his farm system

I think he’s only bad at understanding market values of players, the more I think about it – he clearly has no problem figuring out how to not trade his best prospects for underwhelming packages

by seattlebruin on Jan 12, 2009 8:50 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Perfect scenerio for us.

Now that we value defense, we can upgrade at SS!

But sadly for us, he will be traded to Boston for an AA player.

Darn. I guess we will miss out. At least we will know how Young feels every time a ball is hit to him.

by Slica on Jan 12, 2009 3:01 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Whoa, wait a minute.

You mean those 5 years starts THIS year?

Yuck.

by ThundaPC on Jan 12, 2009 11:36 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Bill Bavasi were still around....

…holy crap, I went back through this thread to double check and you were the one to make this exact point.

Well there’s still Jon Daniels…wait.

Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism

by esoteric on Jan 12, 2009 1:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ooh! Dayton Moore!

Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism

by esoteric on Jan 12, 2009 1:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At least Young is a league average player.

That’s a significant improvement from the replacement level players Moore’s been acquiring.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Jan 12, 2009 1:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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