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Geoff Baker interviews Armstrong about 2009

Tiny by Steve Nelson on Comment 112 comments

Baker reports on a interview with Armtrong in his blog and in a regular beat story.  There's enough in there to enable an average heathy adult to grind down every tooth in his or her mouth to bare nubbins, with enough left over to handle three or four high quality replacement crowns to boot.

But for this FanPost I want to focus on this little gem:

For the record, Armstrong says he was the one who blocked the Jarrod Washburn trade to the Twins. Says he wants "value'' back, not just more saved money. He feels Washburn has been the only one other than Hernandez getting hitters out the past three months and that the team still needs that to get through the year. He also says, if the new GM doesn't deal Washburn, the team could still find value in having Washburn stick around.

So, Armstrong personally killed the Washburn deal.  Armstrong was the guy who insisted the Mariners needed to get value in return. That item summarizes so much about the ineptness of the Mariners organization.

First: team executives continue their long tradition of injecting themselves into baseball operations decisions. Here we see Armstrong overriding the GM on what really should be a straight forward transaction. Washburn is not the heart and soul of the team. Moving Washburn does not mean the club is suddenly going in a new direction. At least it should not be perceived that way, but maybe this executive crew is so loopy they see it as a franchise defining moment. Armstrong has been doing this for as long as he has been Club President (at least 15 years).

Second: only in the Mariners world does a pitcher such as Washburn appear to have value above and beyond simply taking over his contract. This whole situation with expecting value back for Washburn is absurd on so many levels. The Mariners are like a guy who got suckered into a timeshare presentation in Mexico, and spent $20,000 on a one week per year one-bedroom condo with $1000 per year in fees. Now the guy is trying to find someone in his office who will buy it from him for $10,000 - half price, he tells them - but the reality is that he's lucky if he can simply find someone who will take that albatross off his hands for nothing. He still thinks this is something valuable because, after all, he paid $20,000 for it, didn't he? So it must be worth something and all of those coworkers who laugh at him when he tries to sell it just don't grasp the bargain they are passing up. Meanwhile, over at the water cooler folks are having a good chuckle over how clueless this guy is - initially for paying $20,000 for something that wasn't even worth a fraction of that value and now for not being able to realize (or admit) that he got suckered.

Third: Team executive hubris continues unchecked and unabated. One would hope that at some point Armstrong and Lincoln would step back and consider the overall performance of the team under their watch, and realize that they aren't nearly as smart as they consider themselves to be. Under their watches the team had their one moment in the sun - as all but the most totally inept franchises experience occasionally - and they have since regressed to the dregs of MLB. And their dwelling mates are all teams that operate with far less resources. Given the amount of financial resources the Mariners organization has, they are the worst performers in baseball. Yet the men in charge of getting this team into the mess still believe they are the ones to lead the team out. And yet they continue to inject themselves into all but the most mundane operational decisions.

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I am not one to allow hate to seep into my life much

But I may hate Chuck Armstrong more than any other man alive.

Ever since his flippant treatment of Randy after the passing of his father I have had no respect for this man.

by Sec 108 on Sep 5, 2008 7:53 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have no hope for this offseason.

Thanks a lot, Chuckie. Just die of old age already.

by BrianL on Sep 5, 2008 7:57 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Die in a Fire you miserable son of a bitch.

"All I’ve ever done is be Juan Pierre when I wear this jersey. They’re sticking it to me this year for whatever reason. "

.277/.324/.316

~Juan Pierre

by Goose on Sep 5, 2008 8:12 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As I said yesterday at USSM...

Rumors of a transfer of ownership, please be true…
Rumors of a transfer of ownership, please be true…
Rumors of a transfer of ownership, please be true…
Rumors of a transfer of ownership, please be true…

This franchise is doomed until Howard and Chuck, and the residue from their executiveship, is gone…

This signature space for rent.

by PositivePaul on Sep 5, 2008 9:44 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Armstrong Must Go!

OK explain to me. Most readers think keeping Washburn was not the brightest decision made in a season marked by dismal decision making. Now Armstrong who most readers agree hasn’t had a clue for most of his 15 years as president overrides a GM decision. How are the Mariners supposed to attract a quality GM when that GM will be held accountable, but may not have the complete authority necessary.

We need a new owner, managing partner and President before we get a quality GM and then manager and I think hell freezing over is likely a higher probability. We need a miracle.

by I'll Never Understand on Sep 5, 2008 9:46 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do you believe in miracles? NOOOOOOOO

there will be no new ownership group. Lincoln and Armstrong will not be going anywhere. The pile of teal-streaked crap we love now is the same one that’ll be there in March.

We need a drink.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Sep 5, 2008 10:02 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Took a while...

I’m impressed you’re willing to get on the horse again.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Sep 5, 2008 11:22 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I had some brews last night.

I ready to wrecked all over again at the wedding.

by Sec 108 on Sep 5, 2008 11:58 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow that was horrible

One might think I had started already.

by Sec 108 on Sep 5, 2008 11:59 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Haven't you?

Why not?

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Sep 5, 2008 12:10 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bah.

I’m heading out for a pint and some chili cheese fries right now.

And then I’ll come back and work some more.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Sep 5, 2008 12:26 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My guess is

there could have been a 4th, 5th and 6th point of stupidity.

But, #2 was AWESOME. How can you get somebody’s prized spec if your asking them to pay 10 mil for washburn? No sense can be made of this.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Sep 5, 2008 9:55 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When it explain this move to Mariner fans

who don’t read the paper everyday they are shocked.

The average fan mocks this deal too.

by JI on Sep 5, 2008 10:01 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yea, this is stupid......but.

There’s some other gems in his article that suggest the future MAY not be as bad as it looks from an organizational perspective (stress on the MAY):

Armstrong is leaving open the possibility that a GM candidate will come in and blow him away with a plan to contend immediately. But Armstrong said he doubts it will happen, largely because the folks he’s already talked to around the game don’t feel it can be done.

“The people I talk to, all of them are surprised our record is as poor as it is this year,” he said. "But they tell me, ‘Part of your reputation the last few years is that you put all your eggs in one basket, thinking that you’re closer than you are. Is that still the case?’ "

And Armstrong insists he tells them the Mariners are looking to change their ways. Armstrong accompanied the team to Cleveland last week and said manager Jim Riggleman is optimistic about the young arms and overall talent on the club.
The cost of Felix Hernandez and Erik Bedard could rise significantly through arbitration, but there’s little chance of the Mariners reaching this year’s payroll again without splurging on free agents. Armstrong would rather keep Washburn around — or at least let the new GM make the call — than simply shave another $10 million off the bottom line of a 2009 team that could have several young starters trying to log innings for the first time.

Armstrong says his GM candidates list is “in the low 20s” now and will be pared to between 10 and 15 by season’s end. He hopes to have two rounds of interviews and pick a GM by late October. Lee Pelekoudas was given the GM job on an interim basis in June after the Mariners fired Bill Bavasi.

“It’s my view that this is not just a tweaking, and we’ll be there competing [for a title],” Armstrong said. “I feel that we need to do this on a fundamental basis.”

Yes, on one hand, this article is pretty much a shining example that this organization is run by morons. On the other hand, there’s still a chance that whomever they hire as the new GM will be given plenty of leeway (except for signing high-priced free agents) to “rebuild” this team.

Basically, other than the fact that it is really Chuck Armstrong who’s playing the interm GM, this is nothing we didn’t know already as far as how this ship is being run. The real test is going to come this offseason. If the Howard/Chuck administration have their hands all over this team when the new GM comes in or even if they chose a GM that they end up controlling like a hand puppet this team is doomed.

by ThundaPC on Sep 5, 2008 10:06 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Those comments by Armstrong aren't really any change

Notice that Armstrong buttresses his opinion with buttressing comments from other people in baseball. That’s the way the Mariners have always operated. They never strike out in a “new” direction. Bavasi certainly didn’t baldly take the team where no team has gone before. They operate within certain confines and constructs of how a team should be run. They establish contacts with people in baseball who have the same views, and when issues come up they talk with those people to get a range of additional input Of course since all of that input comes from people who have the same compatible philosophy, they’re really not getting any contrasting thoughts.

Go back to when Woody Woodward was hired. The Mariners asked around baseball who might be a good GM, and Woody had enough friends in common circles that his name floated to the top. So he got hired. That M.O. hasn’t really changed, though ownership has changed. That’s how Gillick got hired, and of course Gillick vetted everyone who was considered for his replacement.

Now the Mariners might think they are pushing the envelope in their considerations, but I would be surprised if they really do venture very far from what we’ve seen so far. They might push the envelope to the edge of their comfort zone, but since their bounds are so tight and so centered in baseball “old school” that we are not likely to see anything revolutionary. We could, for example, see someone such as Kim Ng get serious consideration, but only if her core approach to operations is mainstream. Push the envelope on gender, but not if that also means overhauling the whole organization.

I also think there’s a subtext that they want to go back to the Gilick approach – no more big name free agents signings, but instead spread the money around. Isn’t that what Armstrong is saying when he says no more “red-79”?

by Steve Nelson on Sep 5, 2008 10:28 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Heh heh, heh hehh heh...

He said “baldly”

(rec’d)

This signature space for rent.

by PositivePaul on Sep 5, 2008 10:42 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also...

…Don’t forget that Armstrong’s tenure with the Mariners pre-dates this ownership group.

This signature space for rent.

by PositivePaul on Sep 5, 2008 10:45 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Howard Lincoln does one thing right during his tenure with the Mariners

I hope that it’s helping to remove Chuck during this off-season.

by BrianL on Sep 5, 2008 10:46 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's right - Armstrong hired Woodward

In 1988 Armstrong was President and COO. Really – he has been doing his current job ineptly for so many years it’s astounding. Here he is, 20 years in the position, and he’s still learning the job.

He’s one of those guys who you look at his resume and background and you say. “Yeah, he’s got 20 years of experience. But it’s the same year of experience repeated 20 times.”

by Steve Nelson on Sep 5, 2008 10:56 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree actually,

That the comments by Armstrong aren’t signifying any change of philosophy. If anything, they reinforce the philosophy they’ve always had. Chuck blocked the Washburn trade because he thinks he’s valuable. That’s been our main issue for quite some time….their ability to evaluate talent and build a baseball team.

My thing is, it’s still going to depend kind of GM they hire to determine how they want to move forward. Another thing I just now noticed:

Armstrong said Thursday that the team’s major goal is to rebuild through “a comprehensive plan” and that any general-manager candidate will have to present one to him in applying for the job.

“If I have my way, the plan will be that we’re not going to make a splash in 2009,” Armstrong said of new financial commitments. “We want the ability to contend on a continuing, year-by-year-by-year basis.”

Makes me curious what kind of plan they’re looking for and what kind of GM will provide that plan? I’m a relative newbie when it comes to baseball but it’s been my understanding that Pat Gillick was more of a “maintain a competitive team with veterans” type. Certainly that doesn’t fit in with any “comprehensive plan” to rebuild to compete.

I still hold out (perhaps foolishly so) that the GM they hire instills a plan to eventually field a winning team. Then again (after glancing at Jeff’s “We have become the Orioles” comment), I recognize that some teams are on “comprehensive plans” that last for eternity (Orioles, Blue Jays, Royals, etc.)…that is, if they even have a plan at all.

For me, it’s too easy to get depressed and upset about this article and the reminder of what this organization actually is. I’d rather wait and see what they decide to put in place this offseason before I react.

by ThundaPC on Sep 5, 2008 11:16 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Based on that interview in that LA newspaper

it sure sounds like Chuck wants us to think we’re a small-market team.

I’m so sick of being lied to by this idiotic ownership group and front office. I’d love to gather up all of these quotes, these instances where Chuck and Howard lie/contradict themselves, and put them on display.

Even better, I’d like a mainstream writer to do that for me. I can’t wait for the day that someone like Art Thiel rakes these idiots over the coals.

by BrianL on Sep 5, 2008 12:25 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One of the more excellent posts on Morsels (not written by me, of course)...

…was this one from nearly 4 years ago about the M’s payroll that collected a bunch of interesting quotes from one of the topics that they’ve lied about constantly.

I miss Munchausen (although the person behind the username is still very much alive)…

This signature space for rent.

by PositivePaul on Sep 5, 2008 12:47 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They're probably right.

The mainstream fans will totally buy this. Seattlites don’t think of themselves as big city folks.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Sep 5, 2008 12:27 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know smart teams can build and contend.

Clearly this Mariners organization can’t. 2005-2008 was basically their edition of “building and contending” and it failed miserably. Unfortunately, these are the people making the decision to focus on rebuilding (with contending being optional).

I think they believe, based on the last few years, trying to build an instant contender does not work. They would be wrong, of course, but this is what we’re facing right now. The GM they hire will come into an organization that does not understand today’s baseball environment.

by ThundaPC on Sep 5, 2008 12:44 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

(Orioles, Blue Jays, Royals, etc.)

The Jays are one of the top 8 teams in baseball right now.

By BP’s adjusted standings they’re running fourth this season. Whatever their plan is, it’s produced a pretty good team.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Sep 5, 2008 12:22 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would.

But I’m rare in that I accept that they can’t help who’s in their division. A really good team in the AL East can still finish fourth.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Sep 5, 2008 12:28 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yep.

Still funny…

This signature space for rent.

by PositivePaul on Sep 5, 2008 11:08 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bird would cook, max would look - where?

Down them stairs, lose them cares – where?
Down in birdland
Total swing, bop was king – there
Down in birdland
Bird would cook, max would look – where?
Down in birdland
Miles came through, trane came too – there
Down in birdland
Basie blew, blakey too – where?
Down in birdland
Cannonball played that hall – there
Down in birdland
Yeah—-

Oooops. Wrong Birdland. Would be cool if something like that came back to Jackson Street, though.

by Steve Nelson on Sep 5, 2008 11:39 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I love this song.

I enjoy the Weather Report version a little more, though.

by BrianL on Sep 5, 2008 1:21 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

seconded

Although this version fits better with the gif above.
BTW: Wow, check out the 80s looks.

by vj on Sep 5, 2008 2:08 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yep, we have officially joined the "Doomed Triad" and made it quartet.

1.Baltimore Orioles
2.Seattle Mariners
3.Houston Astros
4.San Fransisco Giants.

"All I’ve ever done is be Juan Pierre when I wear this jersey. They’re sticking it to me this year for whatever reason. "

.277/.324/.316

~Juan Pierre

by Goose on Sep 5, 2008 11:06 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Honestly, if Chuck Armstrong is still involved with this organization next season

I don’t know how I’m going to convince myself to have hope for this franchise.

I don’t buy into what Baker says about Armstrong. As far as I’m concerned he’s an inept FO exec who has been the one constant over the last 20 years of failure.

by BrianL on Sep 5, 2008 11:08 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Felix will always be the glimmer of hope, no matter how faint.

But if he ever leaves, well…….

"All I’ve ever done is be Juan Pierre when I wear this jersey. They’re sticking it to me this year for whatever reason. "

.277/.324/.316

~Juan Pierre

by Goose on Sep 5, 2008 11:10 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think the Orioles are on that list anymore after the Bedard & Tejada trades.

McPhail will probably trade Sherril and Huff this off season for more good young prospects.

Be open minded about what you don't know.

by Jed MC on Sep 5, 2008 11:15 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll admit, the Orioles are on the cusp of falling off with those trades and their last few drafts. They're in danger of being replaced by the Royals or the Nationals.

But they’re still there.

"All I’ve ever done is be Juan Pierre when I wear this jersey. They’re sticking it to me this year for whatever reason. "

.277/.324/.316

~Juan Pierre

by Goose on Sep 5, 2008 11:18 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Orioles don't belong in the list anymore.

They’re just a below average team right now that looks awful because of their division.

Based on the BP’s adjusted standings, they’re currently 23rd in all of baseball in terms of this season’s performance (the top 5 teams in MLB are the rest of the AL East and the Cubs), and their system isn’t as bare as it has been. The Bedard trade was really good.

I hate the Orioles for reasons I can’t explain, and I want them always to fail (seriously, more than the Angels or Yankees), but they’ve definitely improved.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Sep 5, 2008 11:23 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Isn't Huff a FA?

But, yeah, I’d be surprised if George renews the lease on his apartment this winter…

This signature space for rent.

by PositivePaul on Sep 5, 2008 11:19 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wieters.

If they get an average SP or SS, they’re something different. Hell, Tillman may be an average SP in 2010.
It would appear, though it’s by no means a certainty, that Angelos has stopped interfering catastrophically with the GM.

by marc w on Sep 5, 2008 1:45 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You know, now I'm glad John Hart called up Seattle and said he's interested.

There aren’t going to be a whole lot of GM candidates who volunteer for this ass-backwards job.

by BrianL on Sep 5, 2008 11:29 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Buster Only was on KJR the other day

saying how GM’s around the league still view this job as a crown jewel just needing some polish

by Robert on Sep 5, 2008 12:08 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I honestly haven't heard otherwise

Other than from fans who are generally depressed about how this team is being run.

The only thing really missing is a good product on the field (what a thing to be missing). Everything else is pretty much there. Stadium, payroll, TV/Radio coverage, etc.

by ThundaPC on Sep 5, 2008 12:15 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It has to be tempting now.

You are almost guaranteed to look good in comparison.

by Matthew on Sep 5, 2008 12:25 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Especially

Since this group was pleased with the incremental improvements (in team record) made from 2005-2007 after the 2004 disaster.

John Hart: “Oh snaps, sign me up!”

by ThundaPC on Sep 5, 2008 12:48 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And due to the massive TV contract

Dealing with Armstrong or whatever might be tough, but being able to deal with massive egos/personalities is part of the gig. This seriously is one of the best jobs in baseball thanks to the guaranteed revenue, the decent park and payroll.

by marc w on Sep 5, 2008 1:47 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah

A lot of teams have meddling ownership. It’s one of the typical challenges to managing a club.

by Gomez on Sep 5, 2008 1:54 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why does this world have to be run by idiots?

HOW DO IDIOTS KEEP FINDING THEIR WAY TO THE TOP GODDAMMIT I HATE YOU CHUCK ARMSTRONG I HATE YOU

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Washingtonhighways.org

by I'm NOT Corco on Sep 5, 2008 2:41 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

....

“If there is a problem, we need to notice it, what creates the problem. The problem usually isn’t just on the cover. You need to look much deeper. For example, if we’re talking about a tree, and the tree has a problem, you need to look at the root. But you cannot see the root. The mistake is to keep watering the fruit. That’s not going to solve anything. You need to find where the problem is first.”

by Nick S on Sep 5, 2008 2:43 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This FanPost is on both the front page and the side.

It infuriates me how we can have one amazing front office in this city but have 2 shitty ownership groups (1 now I guess). It’s not a great feeling when the people in charge are the most retarded people and almost anyone below them could do a better job.

by Mariner John on Sep 5, 2008 2:45 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Richie Sexon bobbleheads to the first 30,000?

Did I hear that correctly!!? I’m not seeing it on the MLB M’s page. But it looks like the interview is available for replay on the website. Thanks for the link info guys.

"Steee-rike!" cries the umpire, and the westward course of empire flows unchecked. Paul O'Neil in SI.

by dpseadv on Sep 5, 2008 3:02 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not sure if that was a joke or not

But that would be pretty hilarious if it’s true, because he’d still be wearing his Mariners uniform.

by OlSalty on Sep 5, 2008 3:37 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

30,000 Sexson Bobbleheads, really?

This seems as good of a spot as any to use this image:

This signature space for rent.

by PositivePaul on Sep 5, 2008 4:32 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ok, I missed the entire conversation for kids time.

And got this when I returned. I’ve got to check out that site, I’m still laughing.

"Steee-rike!" cries the umpire, and the westward course of empire flows unchecked. Paul O'Neil in SI.

by dpseadv on Sep 5, 2008 5:46 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

After this, I have changed my signature

It speaks for itself. First time Chowie tried to meddle he’d get the cointoss . . .

Anton Chigurh for GM!

by 300ZXNA on Sep 5, 2008 11:24 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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