Geoff Baker still hates Ichiro
by andrewgolfsalot on Sep 25, 2008 9:23 AM PDT
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PrintBaker's got his piece today on some of the winter moves staring the M's in the face.
He discusses Ibanez' future and talks a lot about the clubhouse issues that the M's have. He also notes that he still has some weird disdain for Ichiro
And it was a clubhouse in need of some direction, given the problems engulfing it as the season came undone. When it came to Ichiro, who got off to a typically slow start in April and part of May, the internal turmoil nearly hit its boiling point.
"I just can't believe the number of guys who really dislike him," said one clubhouse insider. "It got to a point early on when I thought they were going to get together and go after him."
The coaching staff and then-manager John McLaren intervened when one player was overheard talking — in reference to Ichiro — about wanting to "knock him out." A team meeting was called to clear the air.
Ichiro didn't have a slow May.
May 1-12: 18-48, three walks, four doubles, eight runs, 10 SB, .375 / .400 / .458
May total: 36-113, 12 walks, six doubles, HR, 18 runs, 18 SB, .319 / .384 / .398
But others point out that Ichiro, along with Ibanez, is one of the few Mariners to put up consistently high numbers during a season in which the team has all but collapsed. They also suggest that Ichiro, being Japanese and not a vocal clubhouse presence, is somewhat vulnerable to scapegoating in a clubhouse that at times appeared divided along linguistic and cultural lines.
Geoffry, you're the one who's been doing the scapegoating.
However, if you take away the ribbing Geoff does against Ichiro, it's a relatively good article on decisions facing the M's brass this winter.
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I see quotes and referential paraphrases
Whether or not he personally has an issue with Ichiro (and I’m not sure this piece proves that he does)… if people are saying these things to him, he ought to report them. I’m not sure those indicate any hatred. He IS a beat reporter, after all.
The reference to a slow May, however, looks like perceptual laziness on his part. Even during May 13-30 he still had consistent 2 hit games with few 0-fers, 9 walks, and swiped 8 bases… so if that’s a slow month, I’ll gladly take six of those from a leadoff hitter.
Same.
Though I don’t believe that there needs to be specific qualifications for a leadoff hitter as opposed to a number 4 hitter, Ichiro is a quality baseball player, and he means a lot to our city (ticket sales).
The road to hell is paved with Mariners.
by .Taylor on Sep 25, 2008 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions
It's not just Geoff
I hate that selfish little shit too!
What could have Ichiro been doing to piss off his teammates that far?
Almost sounds as though they wanted to murder him and dump his body off a ferry boat. My guess is that Ichiro probably vocalized his concerns to McLaren, Bavasi, Chuck, and Howie, and the younger guys were getting chewed out because of it. And now Ichiro looks like the bad guy even though he was trying to become the leader they wanted him to be.
Bad teams focus their frustrations on their best players
You’ve got a losing clubhouse, and an incumbent franchise player who has earned a quasi-benevolent status in part because of his accomplishments. Resentment tends to follow.
It’s more likely something like this is a byproduct of that sort of dynamic than any sort of genuine dispute.
Let me take a guess:
Ichiro is probably perceived by some in the clubhouse as a “golden boy” who gets whatever he wants. Ichiro all but said that he wouldn’t re-sign unless Hargrove left, and voila, Hargrove’s gone. He wants to switch to RF from CF (where he’s far more valuable) and he gets his way. (Remember what McLaren said when he made the change? Paraphrased: “Ichiro just seems so much happier now that he’s back in RF.”) He wants to warm up alone, distance himself from the rest of the team, and there’s no problem. Because he’s a superstar. And he’s foreign. He’s Japanese. Serious culture clash as well. Don’t kid yourself: these sorts of perceptions WILL breed resentment among certain quarters, regardless of how good the player is.
Please, SPARE ME THE COUNTERARGUMENTS. This is not about whether said perceptions are fair, or right, or just, or stupid, or bigoted, or whatever. I am merely describing a phenomenon of perception. I would not be surprised in the slightest to find out that this perfectly encapsulates the way some players in the clubhouse feel about Ichiro. And those players? Maybe they suck. Maybe they’re awful baseball players and assholes as people, maybe (likely) their complaints are rationally unjustified.
It doesn’t matter. At the end of the day it’s still a major personnel problem. You can’t simply scream at your employees to “BE SMART YOU IGNORANT ASSHOLES STOP HOLDING IRRATIONAL GRUDGES.” Would that you could.
B.J. Upton's new nickname = "Laggard McShambleslow"
by esoteric on Sep 25, 2008 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good point
And this sort of dynamic happens in a lot of working environments. It would be no surprise for such a dynamic to occur in a baseball clubhouse.
The problem is...
… do you dump the talented player for the mediocre masses?
I might also point out that Ichiro didn’t seem to be problem from 2001 to 2003.
by eponymous_coward on Sep 25, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Teammate(s) wanted to "knock Ichiro out?"
Gee, I bet I can name one or two of them.
Perhaps one of these people also wanted to grab him by the neck and throw him into the wall?
B.J. Upton's new nickname = "Laggard McShambleslow"
HAVE A KNUCKLEBALL SANDWICH YOU MORON
wait for it….it’s coming….any minute now……POW oh crap I hit you in the knee.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
More like...
WHUP – Oh crap I hit the guy 5 rows up in the stands.
This signature space for rent.
by PositivePaul on Sep 25, 2008 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
I read "fan appreciation fight".
Hmm…
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/milb-mariners/
by JY on Sep 25, 2008 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions
He did threaten himself once
Something about Cleveland.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Sep 25, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
And the story
has been picked up nationally now, MSNB has it on their front page.
Midnight Baseball - No Lights - Only in Alaska!
Uh.
That’s something management/ownership probably doesn’t want to happen, yes?
The PR Savy M's
probably absolutely hate that their dirty laundry is being played out nationally. Ichiro is their bread and butter and having any kind of bad light shed on him (Justified or not) is probably not thrilling them in the least.
Midnight Baseball - No Lights - Only in Alaska!
by MfaninAlaska on Sep 25, 2008 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Ah NBC Sports
Yeah, that’s a little different from MSNB.
Seems like they’re treating it like a page 4 item as it’s down the page some. Let’s see how much steam this picks up.
Yeah I forgot
the “C” when I was typing it out.
Midnight Baseball - No Lights - Only in Alaska!
by MfaninAlaska on Sep 25, 2008 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Shiiiit.
Report: Teammates considered hurting Ichiro
Quite a headline!
If this were golf, the Mariners would be winning.
First I was annoyed. This story annoys me.
But it getting picked up nationally is just funny. It makes the M’s seem like such a fly-by-night operation.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Hilarious and true.
The Mariners are actually run out of the back of a rented U-Haul by a guy named Vinnie. On alternate Thursdays from 11:00 AM-5:00 PM.
B.J. Upton's new nickname = "Laggard McShambleslow"
I would think that at this point Ichiro probably regrets signing the extension.
If this were golf, the Mariners would be winning.
Rotoworld's take on it?
Ichiro Suzuki-OF-Mariners Sep. 25 – 1:28 pm et
An anonymous clubhouse insider told the Seattle Times that Mariners teammates were so annoyed with Ichiro Suzuki earlier this season that they considered beating him up.
“I just can’t believe the number of guys who really dislike him,” said the insider. “It got to a point early on when I thought they were going to get together and go after him.” The coaching staff and then-manager John McLaren intervened when one player was overheard talking about wanting to “knock him out.” Perhaps the goal would have been to knock him around like the rest of the league has done to Carlos Silva this year, but given Mariners’ hitters reputations, it’s likely that the team could land several blows and still not do any damage. It’s not as though Richie Sexson had a chance of making contact.
I fucking hate you Mariners
...
“It got to a point early on when I thought they were going to get together and go after him.”
5 Minutes later the Mariners would be short 24 players.
...and now I'm here
Maybe that's why they were worried
Then it would be Ichiro and 24 AA ballplayers. Not sure if that would be an improvement or not, though….
Halman, Wilson, Moore.
I think we know the answer.
...and now I'm here
Where's Jason Ellison when you need him?
Screw being a 4th outfielder, the Ms should hire him as Ichiro’s bodyguard. I mean, I don’t think even Silva is as fat as Joe Blanton.
Now that LL Football is starting up again
The next time I have a bad game, I’m blaming Matthew.
Ichiro responds thusly:
“I haven’t heard that, but what I think about it is that when things are not going well, many people have different ideas, and that’s only natural. If a crow has thought it, it would surprise me. But since it’s human beings, it does not surprise me.”
"When I'm a evaluating a player the first three things I look at are: Character, character, and character."
-Charles Armstrong esq.
by Big Jared on Sep 25, 2008 6:26 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I'm impressed by Riggleman's response.
I fucking hate you Mariners
He didn't name anyone...
but holy shit he sounds pissed.
That last bit where he calls out the staff "11th in the league" and goes on from there.
Wow. There’s some things about Riggleman I don’t care for, but there’s some things I’m starting to appreciate as the season has progressed.
"Sorry I hit you in the helmet Hank, I meant to hit you in the neck." Stan Williams to Hank Aaron.
Just to piss off the pitchers.
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on Sep 26, 2008 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Riggleman has a lot of things going for him
Unfortunately, knowing how to manage a baseball game isn’t one of them. He isn’t a fool. He can tell who is a fool. And he doesn’t like fools. Those are all good things. But he just doesn’t understand how to evaluate or use baseball talent properly.
Yes.
I bet Ichiro could command a fleet of spaceships against an alien planet as well.
by appleshampoo on Sep 25, 2008 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow this Riggleman interview really is one worth listening to.
There’s an entire section where he calls bullshit on the whole “leadership” thing in the clubhouse.
JJ Putz chimes in, doesn't seem pleased
Courtesy ESPN
“It’s very troubling if it was a player who said that,” Putz said. "People have a lot of differences of opinion on a lot of things, but to say something like that in the paper and not fess up as to who it is, whoever said it is a coward.
“You have something to say about somebody, step up and say it. Don’t hide behind [a writer]. Anybody can sit around and talk behind somebody’s back. I think it’s ridiculous.”
“You’re talking about a guy who is more prepared to play than anybody probably in this game,” Putz said. “He goes out every single season and has 200 hits and scores 100 runs. All of a sudden people talk about knocking him out. That’s the one thing that’s usually sacred in there. You have something to say about somebody, you walk up to them and say something.”
Prediction: Next time it won't be a whipped cream pie
Once Putz figures out who it us, the pie will be filled with something much less appetizing than shaving cream.
Geoff Baker should change his name to Wormtongue Grima
JJ’s searching for the player who said it, but it’s just Wormtongue Baker recycling his Carlos Silva story in another one of his attacks on Ichiro.
JJ, Riggles deny the team meeting
Watch Geoff backtrack:
Somebody asked whether the "clubhouse insider’’ is lying, or whether it’s Putz or Riggleman not telling the truth. I actually think they all might be telling the truth. Earlier today, I was talking with Larry Stone about this and we were trying to figure out how a team meeting might have been called to specifically address Ichiro.
It’s not like you could begin it with: “Now, we know some of you want to beat Ichiro up, but you can’t…”
Kind of awkward, no? It’s possible the team had meetings and addressed the subject of player jealousy in very general terms. We already know they had plenty of meetings. It’s entirely possible somebody got wind of the "knock him out’’ comment and called a player meeting that went over stuff in general terms without naming specific names of victims or calling out the aggressors.
I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or from Brett's source or whatever, but if it's true, I hope it's Silva
by seattlebruin on Sep 26, 2008 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
No working at the stadium for 3 years had given me my own sources
And it wasn’t somebody that you would suspect
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