Lookout Landing: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: NHL Free Agency Coverage: NHL Rumors, NHL Signings & Trades


Instant Replay Is A Terrible Idea

Valbuenaout_medium

I'm not going to sit here and bitch about Luis Valbuena being called out at third when he was clearly safe, because there wouldn't be a point, and this team has more to gain from losing than winning anyway. It was a terrible call that, despite Sam Perlozzo's outrage, actually served the greater good, at least as far as the M's are concerned.

But let's pretend this had happened in a different context. What if it were, say, today's Phillies game instead? A game that mattered? In terms of Win Expectancy, the difference between Valbuena being called safe and Valbuena being called out is 35.3%. That is, the WE is 44.5% with a man on third, and 9.2% with one down and the bases empty. The run expectancy difference is 1.2 runs (1.5 to 0.3). That's an umpire singlehandedly robbing a team of the probable tying run with a bad call at third base. If you thought Perlozzo and Riggleman were angry today, just imagine how they would've reacted were the Mariners playing for something.

Why should we have to accept that this sort of thing is just "part of the game"? I know calls have been up to the umpires since the birth of the sport, but instant replay has only been available for a little while, now, and if the purpose of having umpires is to try and get as many calls right as possible, why are people so reluctant to take the next logical step towards accomplishing that goal? Why are people so afraid of instant replay? Given how every baseball fan I've ever talked to has had his share of stories about how his team got screwed by a bad call, shouldn't a more accurate system be, I dunno, universally embraced? Seems like the only people who have a right to hate cameras are the umpires themselves, but even then, I imagine it'd be better to have your bad call overturned than to have your bad call cost some team a run, a game, or even a season. I'd rather look dumb for five minutes than look dumb for a month.

Baseball is a competition between two teams. At the end of the day, the team that makes fewer mistakes will wind up the victor. With that in mind, why would we ever want to allow for some margin of error from a third party? What purpose does that serve? People can talk all they want about how the want to protect the "integrity of the game" or whatever, but I guarantee you they're not talking like that when they lose a baserunner to a blown call.

Just because major bad calls don't happen that often doesn't mean they aren't a problem, or that measures shouldn't be taken to minimize the frequency with which they occur. A call like today's taking place in an important game could very easily mean the difference between a team making the playoffs and watching from home. Doesn't that seem like the sort of thing we should try to prevent before it happens? This isn't a hypothetical. This is probability. And the longer you wait, the better the chances of some baseball team ending up mighty sore.

Choose replay. It's good for the game, and it's good for the soul.

3 recs | Comment 88 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

YES!

It’s a perennial argument that technology is slowly helping to settle.
Sure, if the cost of reviewing a play is something like 25 minutes of staring at grainy black and white replays, yeah, maybe it’s not worth it. But when you can look at a replay and get something like this right in a few minutes, what’s the issue? It’s certainly not about time anymore, not when arguments over blown calls take longer than reviews.

In the final analysis, all the ‘traditionalists’ have to fall back on is that error and uncertainty are a part of the game. That will always be true, but it’s still fundamentally weird to hear arguments basically coming out in favor of getting things wrong.

(by the way, uh, how the hell did this call get missed in the first place? What possible explanation can there be for this?)

by marc w on Sep 20, 2008 5:53 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bud Selig was in the booth with Rizzs the other day.

“I’m a traditionalist”. No $elig, you’re not. At all. I hate to throw in the towel and admit defeat, but this isn’t the baseball game Grandpa grew up watching. Bad calls probably even out during a season, maybe a bad call lost you a game today, but may have won you a game in April. I hate hate hate replay, but the current agreement for replay lasts for 4 years. It’s going to happen. Sigh.

"Sorry I hit you in the helmet Hank, I meant to hit you in the neck." Stan Williams to Hank Aaron.

by dpseadv on Sep 20, 2008 5:53 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My grandpa always told me that the baseball he grew up watching sucked.

Of course, he was a Pirates fan before the Mariners came into existence.

"All I’ve ever done is be Juan Pierre when I wear this jersey. They’re sticking it to me this year for whatever reason. "

.277/.324/.316

~Juan Pierre

by Goose on Sep 20, 2008 6:04 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Holy christ on a crutch.

Saying the players sucked is silly, and there were dark people playing for a large part of most people’s Grandfather’s lives. And the game isn’t static, I never said that, there’s been lot’s of changes. Height of the pitching mound, sacrifices and walks not counting as at-bats, number of teams expanding, AL & NL, breaking the umpires’ union and not having separate umps for each league, the color barrier, I could come up with a bunch if I put some thought into it. Slow motion replay and hi-def video are just the latest, but most mechanical changes. Next thing they’ll want the strike zone defined by a machine. What’s more important to getting the game right than the strike zone? The technology exists, why not?

"Sorry I hit you in the helmet Hank, I meant to hit you in the neck." Stan Williams to Hank Aaron.

by dpseadv on Sep 20, 2008 6:21 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know about you

but baseball wasn’t integrated until my grandfather was in his 20s, and not fully integrated for years after that.

by JI on Sep 20, 2008 6:31 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mine was in his late 30's.

He lived to be 82. So like I said, “for a large part of their lives..” I just don’t care for reducing the human element of the game, where does it stop? A bad strike zone affects far more games than close calls on bang bang plays or foul pole home runs. Pointless argument. Once fans get used to a little bit of replay, four years from now its use will probably expand.

"Sorry I hit you in the helmet Hank, I meant to hit you in the neck." Stan Williams to Hank Aaron.

by dpseadv on Sep 20, 2008 6:41 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I sure hope so

I’m praying that this slope is as slippery as a hill made out of Crisco.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 21, 2008 9:23 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There are 'suck' players now.

Saying they were bad in aggregate doesn’t make sense to me. What era of players are you specifically signifying as ‘sucked’? Pre-1990? 1960? 1940?

"Sorry I hit you in the helmet Hank, I meant to hit you in the neck." Stan Williams to Hank Aaron.

by dpseadv on Sep 20, 2008 6:45 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Relative talent level.

Baseball players are much better today than they were 50 or 60 years ago. The level of talent required to make it to the bigs is way higher than it once was, for reasons that include a far bigger talent pool because of integration and international player development.

by Teej on Sep 20, 2008 7:03 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would argue dilution of talent pool due to team and roster expansion.

And then say it gets (at best) negated by your points of integration and international player acquisition. However, the manner in which the game has been played has changed drastically over time. Changes in rules, stadium dimensions, manufacture of the baseball, and general evolution of game theory to counteract successful franchises being several of the main driving forces I can think of off the top of my head. Players in the 1920’s (lacking pigment) were playing a different game, but still great players. I could say the same for other era’s, up to maybe the 1960’s when the pieces of the modern version of the sport started to coalesce. The same thing has happened with basketball and hockey. They need a bigger rink!

"Sorry I hit you in the helmet Hank, I meant to hit you in the neck." Stan Williams to Hank Aaron.

by dpseadv on Sep 20, 2008 7:23 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, that's a pretty comfortable position to maintain.

Not so interesting for conversation however. You don’t think they need to make the hockey rinks bigger? It comes up every few years and I like the arguments that support the idea.

"Sorry I hit you in the helmet Hank, I meant to hit you in the neck." Stan Williams to Hank Aaron.

by dpseadv on Sep 20, 2008 9:12 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A) more line breaks please. Big walls of text are tiring to read and don't lend themselves

to making a point.

B) Baseball players are much much better now than they were in the past. It’s not a statement talking relative to era, it’s a general statement. And it’s true. Demonstrably true.

by Matthew on Sep 20, 2008 9:41 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How do you make the line break?

I’m hitting return but it’s lumping together when I post.

"Sorry I hit you in the helmet Hank, I meant to hit you in the neck." Stan Williams to Hank Aaron.

by dpseadv on Sep 20, 2008 9:43 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have no idea why it would be doing that but try putting in

<br[[COMMENT_CHILDREN_TOKEN]]gt; in your text (without the \) twice to create a line break if it’s messing it up.

by Matthew on Sep 20, 2008 9:48 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

SBN 2.0wned

Just take the br in Matthew’s brackets, put a p in there and do it once.

by Gomez on Sep 20, 2008 11:41 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I prefer discussion or conversation to argument.

As for keeping up, getting into a pissing contest over intelligence doesn’t interest me. I’m open to being educated, changing my mind, or flat out being wrong. If I’ve taken a position that is untenable, I’ll be the first to admit it.

"Sorry I hit you in the helmet Hank, I meant to hit you in the neck." Stan Williams to Hank Aaron.

by dpseadv on Sep 20, 2008 10:38 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As much as I don't want to be made to look ridiculous by you or by Matthew,

the two of you are not supporting your statements of “hilariously wrong” or “it’s true, demonstrably true”.

Yes, perhaps the best of the best of baseball is better now than they were in the past. Clearly I have no statistical analysis to back this up. But is there not something to be said for a decreasing talent pool on the lower end?

Ok, we have greater international selection, and, of course, a lack of discrimination based on skin color. But what of the fact that baseball is simply not as popular as it used to be? That must be factored in somehow. Now young boys play soccer, football, hockey, basketball…all these sports were not nearly as popular just a few decades ago. With superior athletes choosing other sports rather than baseball, the amount of available talent must be shrinking. Is that really compensated by the players coming from Latin America and Japan?

In addition, it also seems that we have to take into account the decrease in pitching talent—or, perhaps, the way that pitchers are prepared. We’ve seen it with our own team, in which we call up pitchers far too soon. Is it wanting to show off our talent, or just trying to apply a tiny band-aid to a gaping wound? Whichever it is, pitchers are either not being given enough time to work up to their potential, or there simply aren’t enough quality ones to go around.

The game has changed, whether we like it or not, but to say that as a group, baseball players are today above and beyond they athletes that they were in the past, well, that misses many of the nuances of baseball.

I'll shut up lest you ban me like you banned butthol.

by NOLAmarinergirl on Sep 21, 2008 8:15 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There are a number of ways to measure talent

Whether that be by spread or just a mathematical modelling of population inside baseball vs outside baseball, they al add up to say that the major leagues of the 30s were about as talented as the AA of today.

by Graham on Sep 21, 2008 8:37 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pitchers today are way more talented

There are legends of when Walter Johnson first arrived on the scene he was throwing ~97 mph and hitters claimed he threw so hard they couldn’t see the ball.

FWIW from his wikipedia entry:


Although a lack of precision instruments prevented accurate measurement of his fastball, in 1917, in Bridgeport (Conn.) arms laboratory, Walter Johnson recorded 134 feet per second,which is equal to 91mph (147 kilometers per hour). This speed would be average today, but it was virtually unique in Johnson’s day, with the possible exception of Smoky Joe Wood. Unusually, Johnson pitched with a sidearm motion, whereas power pitchers are normally associated with a straight-overhand delivery.

by JI on Sep 21, 2008 10:20 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As Graham somewhat says, there's been many many many studies done to measure relative

talent level across years.

Every single one of them shows the talent level going up over time. I know for certain that BP has a ton of articles on this and THT had a series about a year or so back that looked at it as well. Plus many others.

by Matthew on Sep 21, 2008 10:22 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The entire planet is now being scouted for baseball players.

Expanding rosters and adding a dozen or teams doesn’t come anywhere close to making up for that.

Fifty years ago, Felix Hernandez, et al., would not have been in the majors.

“Suck” is a subjective term, obviously, but compared to today’s players, they weren’t on the same level. It’s not meant as an insult to them. It was just a different game.

by Teej on Sep 20, 2008 8:21 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bingo! Different game, exactly!

Apples and oranges. The crux of what I’m responding to isn’t that the players of yesteryear couldn’t compete in today’s game, it’s that they sucked. Sucked in their era? Within the confines of the environment they played in? It’s been 60 years since the color barrier was broken, but that wasn’t up to the players. Saying they sucked is akin to saying the athletes in the 1936 Olympics sucked. You have to judge the athletes accomplishments within the limits of the sport they were playing in. As far as the entire planet being scoured for players, I’d say it’s a bit less than that, in lot of the countries being scoured baseball isn’t a major sport. MLB is expanding baseball and foreign players overall numbers are growing, and that’s great for baseball.

"Sorry I hit you in the helmet Hank, I meant to hit you in the neck." Stan Williams to Hank Aaron.

by dpseadv on Sep 20, 2008 9:09 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Replay is awesome

I’m soglad baseball decided to do something right for a change.

by JI on Sep 20, 2008 6:02 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Instant replay in baseball is long overdue

There are so many tight judgment calls that can dramatically swing a game, at least as many as football.

by Gomez on Sep 20, 2008 6:13 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for the new angles!

This is from Bakers blog it is what the ump said:
Miller told a pool reporter after the game: "I had the guy sliding in and the third baseman’s foot was blocking the base. The guy’s hand never reached the base and that’s why he was called out. He went in with his left hand and Barton blocked his hand from touching the base. The tag was very late, but when he was tagged, he was off the base.’’

by Slurvey on Sep 20, 2008 6:46 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Huh, I thought blocking any bag but home plate was interference.

Off to the rule book!

"Sorry I hit you in the helmet Hank, I meant to hit you in the neck." Stan Williams to Hank Aaron.

by dpseadv on Sep 20, 2008 6:48 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Instant replay is the one area of baseball..

Where I still hopelessly cling to tradition. The argument’s been made before, these bad calls are supposed to even out over the duration of a season. Instant replay just isn’t something I’ve ever warmed up to.

by CKel on Sep 20, 2008 8:20 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So what?

Why are you willfully accepting bad calls just because they might even out over the course of a season?

by Matthew on Sep 20, 2008 9:44 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I got giddy the first time a saw instant replay in action

There’s no good reason to accept anything but the true outcome.

by JI on Sep 21, 2008 10:22 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My only issue is that

instant replay gums up the game. Nothing quite as exciting as watching a ref go under the hood for five minutes. I want to see the calls made right, but I lack the desire for scientific certainty that would justify further breaks in the game.

by Paytheline on Sep 20, 2008 10:21 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cause Riggleman going out there and the argument that insued was quick..right?

I hear your concerns but if this is overturned without replay it’s our manager mad for 2 minutes..they then discuss and overturn…then the other manager comes out for 2+ minutes to argue the overturn. Replay (hopefully) eliminates all the back and forth’s in arguing calls.

I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on Sep 20, 2008 11:12 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You've got to be fucking kidding me

Umpires and human perception are a part of the game. Blown calls are a part of the game. It’s not a tradition thing, it’s the basics of games. At the end of the day, the most important part of a baseball game really isn’t the winner and the loser, it’s the way that baseball entertains us and brings us together as fans.

I can’t believe I just wrote that being a guy who hates to lose anything more than anyone I know, but it’s true. A blown call of this magnitude happening in an important situation adds to baseball lore, it adds to the things that make baseball great and give it flavor. Not only that, but the perception of blown calls adds an immense amount of flavor to the game.

Not to mention that instant replay is hard to implement well. Where would you have the line be drawn? Can all close plays can be reviewed? Who gets the power of review? What’s the time limit on reviews? There are tons of questions that have to be worked through, and while they can be worked through it’s extremely unlikely to be done well.

The way this post reads, it seems like you’d rather have the game played in sterile lab conditions like an experiment that you can control perfectly.

by Smegmalicious on Sep 21, 2008 3:35 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wait, what? Really? No.

I can’t speak for Jeff or anyone else, but I don’t want the games played in sterile lab conditions; I just want the team that deserves to win to win. All this talk about “where to draw the line” and such reeks of straw as far as I’m concerned.

Frankly, I could give a flying fuck about baseball lore if it means that said lore is based upon poor umpiring. I just really cannot believe that people are willing to resist a system that attempts to do away with incompetence.

J.K.L.

by acblue on Sep 21, 2008 4:11 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Attempting to do away with incompotence is one thing

Implementing a system that may or may not solve the problem and that may or may not change the flow of the game is another.

Besides, there is already a system in place that attempts to do away with incompetence. Umpires are reviewed and graded. They are paid a salary, unlike football refs, and are actually pretty good at their jobs. In more important games, such as playoff games, the best umpires are the ones calling the action, and there are more of them so there is less risk of an error.

Yes there are blown calls, but more often than not the umps do a damned good job.

The ‘where to draw the line’ questions are valid. Baseball is a complex game with complex situations, and if you implement new systems in order to make it better you have to thoroughly investigate the best way to do that. Do you really think the home run instant replay was done in the best way?

Also, do we really want the pro game to continue to diverge from all other levels? Do you want it to end up like Boxing where amateur and pro are two separate sports?

Yes there are situations where a replay would have been nice, but we can’t cherry pick those situations after the fact. You have to think about how things get implemented, not just that it would be nice if they existed in some perfect form.

by Smegmalicious on Sep 21, 2008 4:19 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We're talking about the highest levels of the sport here.

Frankly, I would hope that there’s a difference between MLB and LL/HS/etc.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for MLB umpires. They’re generally pretty goddamned amazing. But they’re wrong occasionally. Just because they’re right most of the time, does that mean we should completely ignore the instances in which they’re wrong?
 
People like to pretend that sports aren’t all that important, but they really are. They’re hugely important, on many different levels. We’re capable of making sure that the correct call is made; why would we discard such capabilities?

J.K.L.

by acblue on Sep 21, 2008 4:29 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My argument isn't that sports are unimportant

It’s that they’re more important than just wining and losing. I guess I didn’t articulate that enough.

Also, we do have the capability of making the correct call, but do we have the capability to do it quickly, unobtrusively and correctly? Do we have the ability to implement that if we do create it?

by Smegmalicious on Sep 21, 2008 5:00 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Absolutely.

Baseball is not as paced as football, where there is a set time between plays. If you had a 5th ump watching a monitor upstairs, and he sees a bad call, he could call down via headset, and the HP ump can wipe off the plate and ask for more balls in the span it would take for the 5th man to look at other angles.

Adding 30-45 seconds 4 or 5 times a game is not nearly as long as people think. Add in a rule much like football where the managers can’t argue, but have 2 “red flags” a game, and you’re saving that much more time.

HD and multiple angles for every play means a call can be mulled over quickly at first to see if the call was feasible, and baseball has enough stopping points that adding another 30 seconds a few times a game isn’t going to hurt anyone.

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Sep 21, 2008 6:04 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This.

If there proves to be too many instances where one would call upon replay, you can institute a challenge system. Also, you would obviously limit which instances replay could be used for. The obvious ones IMO are fair/foul balls, outfield catches, home run calls and tag plays. No bickering for replay every time you think a bad ball/strike was called or every time you think Jeter made a phantom force out at 2nd on a 4-6-3 double play.

Citing the potential for incompetent handling of the replay process belies the point that replay’s called for in the first place due to occasional bouts of umpire incompetence, whether within or beyond their control, that can cost teams a game they otherwise may have won.

by Gomez on Sep 21, 2008 2:12 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think we're throwing the term 'incompetent' around a bit much

The umps do a good job, they work hard and try hard, and the job itself is difficult, but they’re human and they make mistakes. it’s not incompetent to make a mistake, it’s unavoidable.

by Smegmalicious on Sep 21, 2008 2:40 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually, if it's handled like this, I'm way more in favor of it.

If you keep it behind the scenes, and in the hands of the umps who are experienced in this sort of thing, then I’d like to see it in action for a bit, maybe in spring training, before making a final judgment.

You make a good point. If it was just another umpire huddle, with a 5th man having a better view, then I can see it being a good thing for everyone. Umpires huddle anyway to talk about if the call is right.

I just don’t want to see it degenerate into what football has, and I don’t want to see a bad system like the current HR review in place.

Your suggestion is simple and I think it could work.

(also, this may be history…someone being convinced by the other side in an argument online)

by Smegmalicious on Sep 21, 2008 2:38 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"it seems like you’d rather have the game played in sterile lab conditions like an experiment that you can control perfectly."

This is incredibly presumptuous. And it’s insulting to not only the author, but to anyone who dares to think outside the box you have created and prescribed for everyone else.

Baseball lore would be just fine without blown calls. Seriously, how many of the greatest baseball moments of all times are based on a bad call? Jeffrey Maier? A few others? The great moments in baseball are created by players. Not umpires or fans. Maier and Steve Bartman are recent phenomena, and they didn’t do the sport any good.

There is enough talent and inherent awesomeness in baseball to provide plenty of rememberable events while also getting the damn calls right. How the hell does getting the rulings right have anything to do with playing the game in “sterile lab conditions”? The whole point of Jeff’s argument is to remove outside influence, not add to it. Your argument is fallacious.

At the end of the day, the most important part of a baseball game really isn’t the winner and the loser, it’s the way that baseball entertains us and brings us together as fans.

If I were a 5-year-old, I might believe this argument. But since I’m a grown-up, I am willing to admit that the entire sport of baseball is not something put together to make me happy and give me stories of undeserved failure to share with my grandchildren. This is a competitive sport, and, above all, it is a business. As big a fan as you think you are, there are people with a lot more invested in this than you. The players play to win, not to entertain. Nobody gets called out on a bullshit call and says: “Well, at least the fans got a good game today! Yay!”

Teams have the right to ask that they not be fucked over. I love baseball, and I believe in it enough to know that the sport would be better in the long run if we did everything possibly to make sure the players decide the outcome.

by Teej on Sep 21, 2008 6:12 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd rather have the game played under conditions in which as many calls are made correctly as possible

How is a blown call in any way good for baseball lore? Seems like we should be celebrating achievements by the players, not the umpires.

If baseball had hypothetically had instant replay from the very beginning, would you want to get rid of it?

by Jeff on Sep 21, 2008 12:53 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Some plays have to be called in real-time

… especially outfield catch/traps, because baserunners have to know the call immediately in order to know which direction they need to run. You can never overturn a blown catch/trap call without screwing the baserunners.

Instant replay can only be done during a dead ball. If the reviewed play didn’t occur immediately before the ball is dead, or if there was any chance for continuation after the overturned call, remedying the blown call is going to be problematic.

You can make up semi-convoluted situations where almost every call an umpire makes could be scrwed up by reversing it later during a dead ball. Most of them would come up at most once during a complete MLB season., though.

What're ya gonna do with those pies, boys?

by rickpo on Sep 21, 2008 8:26 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Effects on past stats, and on future umpires?

Once instant replay started being used regularly, would we need to go back to historical data for teams and players, find games with blown calls, and “correct” them somehow?

Would we go back to controversial calls, run stat analysis to fill in the gaps, and conclude e.g. that the Cubs actually won the 2003 World Series?

Or introduce some kind of margin of error for pre-replay stats, as over the course of a season it’s possible that an individual’s stats or team’s win totals were skewed by blown calls?

And if we’re not going to go back and adjust like that, then taking the long view, what’s the real damage to the history of the sport and fairness / integrity of the game, in not having instant replay?

Also, project further into the future – in a couple of generations of having instant reply, wouldn’t the quality of major league umpires decline slightly but measurably? As it stands now, the umpires are the final arbiters, they absolutely have to get it right, they’re held to a very high standard. And instant replay / slow-mo / high-def on TV have shown that the vast majority of the time, the umps do get it right. They’re that good. With replay to fall back on, wouldn’t there be less incentive to be absolutely as close to perfect as they can get?

And finally: if replay gets used in enough aspects of the game, we’d never see Lou blow his stack anymore. Who really wants to trade getting one or two calls right if the cost is not seeing Lou cover home plate with dirt, or never see Lou discus-toss first base?

by Spoomeister on Sep 21, 2008 9:00 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No.

No. No. None. No. No. Me.

by patsfan on Sep 21, 2008 10:13 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Are you bloody serious?

Football did not go back into the books and change Sammy Baugh’s career passing yards to “21,886 +/- 827.4.”

Has the history of pre-1990s football been irrevocably damaged by this?

It’s nothing more than another layer of context to apply to someone’s statistics, alongside things like “played during era when balls were covered with shoe polish” and “walked very few hitters because in his era seven balls were required for a walk.” And compared to those, it’s frigging miniscule.

I really, really disagree that the umpires get calls right “the vast majority” of the time. On tag plays, it’s typically barely better than a coin flip. Force plays are better, but most of those are quite easy and umpires routinely blow close ones. That line is propaganda from the umpires’ union and is totally unsupported, as far as I am aware, by any objective analysis.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 21, 2008 9:37 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This website has a quick rundown of various rule changes to the game.

You may find the ones about the foul lines and what is now a ground rule double to be interesting. Link.

"Sorry I hit you in the helmet Hank, I meant to hit you in the neck." Stan Williams to Hank Aaron.

by dpseadv on Sep 22, 2008 11:31 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Another problem with the "it cost them a season" argument

If a blown call was the difference maker in a team going to the playoffs or not, then yes, it’s unfair. But if that team were truly playoff-caliber, then there’s a dozen other points in the season where they could have pitched, fielded or hit better. Blaming a non-championship season on one blown call is irresponsible, when the teams are given dozens of chances over 162 games to be better than the margin of error.

If your team needed that one play, that one pitch, that one game to get into the playoffs, then your team was probably playing well enough; probably lucky; probably decent; not really a great team, though. Closer to fluke and cinderella story than to truly all-time great season / great team.
 
And as for blown calls in the postseason – if the postseason is such a crapshoot that one blown call makes the difference between getting a ring or not, then there needs to be more fundamental changes made than just replay (e.g. a 7-game division series).

by Spoomeister on Sep 21, 2008 9:06 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But if that team were truly playoff-caliber, then there’s a dozen other points in the season where they could have pitched, fielded or hit better.

How would you feel about having to get four outs the ninth inning of a potential WS clinching game?

by JI on Sep 21, 2008 10:25 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Teams fuck up

You’re talking about robbing a team of a play or a game that they rightfully earned. How does that make any sense?

You’re running a 10-mile race. At the 8 mile mark a spectator jumps into the course and tackles you, and you don’t get up for thirty seconds. You lose the race by a nose. I guess you should’ve run faster during the other parts.

by Jeff on Sep 21, 2008 12:38 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So then go back and correct the last 100 years of stats to compensate for it

…because this has been part of the game for decades.

I see your point, though – we have the technology to get greater accuracy in the game than we have before, so we should use it, to be as fair as possible.

Perhaps we should remove the home plate umpire, and just do balls/strikes via Pitch F/X?

by Spoomeister on Sep 21, 2008 3:53 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why would we need to correct for anything?

We didn’t correct for changing the pitcher’s mound, or allowing black players, or the steroid infusion. History is history. It’s over with.

Perhaps we should remove the home plate umpire. Or outfit him with a device that tells him which to call.

by Jeff on Sep 21, 2008 3:56 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My only fear with extended replay is that the Umpires will fight it tooth and nail.

You will essentially need to break their union to get what you are hoping for. If you do break the union you will end up with a lower quality of umpire than you started with.

Then you need replay more often because the new umpires are not getting it correct as often.

None if this is to say I am for or against replay, because honestly I am torn. I would love for all calls to be correct, but I think replay in football has shown us that 100% correct will never happen no matter how much technology we have in place.

by Sec 108 on Sep 22, 2008 8:54 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

By reading a game thread of your own volition you agree to accept all liability for any and all damage done to your delicate sensibilities.
Start posting about the Mariners »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Strip Club Cleared to Open Near Safeco Field
Hms_surprise_small
SBN Suggestions Thread

Recent FanPosts

Small
Want to go to tonights game in Boston?  Please?
Small
Top 5 IFA Guillermo Pimentel signs with the Mariners?
Clemente_small
OT 7/2/05-- Flag Waving, Long Weekend, 4th of July Holiday edition
Small
Open Sounders vs. Timbers gamethread
Small
Happy Canada Day
Durer2_small
Who will be heir to the King?
Eyebrows_small
OFFTOP 6/29/09 - Avoiding Work Edition
Dscn1856_small
USA vs. Brazil Game Thread
Small
Anyone meeting up in NYC?
Small
NHL Draft Open Thread

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini


Sexy People

Hms_surprise_small Graham

Small Matthew

Small Jeff

Official Partner of Yahoo! Sports