All-time worst MVP/Cy Young vote?

by Karma Police on Aug 27, 2008 4:14 PM PDT Comment 68 comments

Someone has to know this, or at least know a pretty bad one. Or several.

I was just looking over the 2001 AL Cy young voting, where because of 9/11 and his famous name, Roger Clemens stole the cy young from Freddy. Which reminded me how retarded some (most) of these "experts" are. So there has to be some idiot that voted someone like Craig Counsell one year cause he got a game-winning HBP once and the writer was smashed and it made him cry.

BONUS POINTS: worst first place vote?

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I'd say

Hoyt or Jack McDOwell

and

Juan Gonzalez or Justin Morneau

by JI on Aug 27, 2008 4:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Freddy Garcia didn't deserve the Cy Young

by Jeff on Aug 27, 2008 4:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Probably Mussina but it's splitting hairs.

by JI on Aug 27, 2008 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Cy Young Clemens stole was the '04 from RJ.

Stupid pitcher wins & losses.

by Jed MC on Aug 27, 2008 4:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

He had the same thing happen to him the next season

by JI on Aug 27, 2008 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was looking at Clemens and he got robbed in 1990.

Bob “27-6” Welch won the award because the voters are stupid.

by Jed MC on Aug 27, 2008 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Most of these "experts" use stone-age stats such as ERA and Wins to determine a Cy Young winner.

And then sound surprised when someone with 20 something wins doesn’t get the Cy Young award. If you also look down the list of Cy Young awards, most winners, if not all in recent years pitched for contenders.

JI/Robert '08!

by Fin on Aug 27, 2008 4:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

ERA may be an outdated statistic,

but it really shouldn’t be grouped in the same category of “stone-ageyness” as Wins.

by redwolf75 on Aug 27, 2008 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Juan Gonzalez, 1996; Mo Vaughn, 1995; Jack McDowell, 1993;

Jorge Bell, 1987.

Others I didn’t particularly like (but aren’t the abominations on the level of the above) include Bedrosian, 1987; Ivan Rodriguez, 1999 (eh, the more I think about, this may be just as bad as some of the above); Gonzalez, 1998; Ryan Howard 2006.

by marc w on Aug 27, 2008 4:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Andre Dawson 87 was terrible

by JI on Aug 27, 2008 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ted Williams 41 too

by JI on Aug 27, 2008 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mickey Mantle was robbed in 61

by JI on Aug 27, 2008 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm

I never realized how big the gap between Williams and DiMaggio that season was

Though DiMaggio’s record is pretty far up there on the list of the hardest records to break

by seattlebruin on Aug 27, 2008 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

As bad as that was, Ted was robbed worse in 1942.

by marc w on Aug 27, 2008 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was about to say 1957 until

I realized that must have been the greatest MVP race in history.

by JI on Aug 27, 2008 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, there just wasn't a wrong answer there

and I basically agree with the call the writers made, given positional adjustments. I just feel bad for Ted that TWO people had OBPs over .500 that year.

by marc w on Aug 28, 2008 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It was basically the best (non-suspect) performance by hitter int he modern era.

by JI on Aug 28, 2008 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought about including Dawson

It was bad, but eclipsed (at least to me) by Jorge Bell the same year.

by marc w on Aug 27, 2008 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Trammell?

by JI on Aug 27, 2008 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yup

Two guys have the same OPS – one has a much higher OBP, oh, and is a slick fielding SS. The other is a “LF.”

But HRs!

by marc w on Aug 28, 2008 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mo Vaughn was absolutely terrible

I’d like to see the Belle v. Martinez breakdown
Mike Piazza was robbed in 1997
Ichiro was terrible in 2001
Sammy Sosa in 1998 was absolutely terrible as well.

by JI on Aug 27, 2008 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good ones

The Vaughn one was just so transparently because voters didn’t like Belle… kind of like Ted Williams in 1941, when he lost based on a local writer picking him last or something. Reminds me a bit of Griffey losing in 1998 because TWO local sportswriters didn’t put him in the top 5.

Ichiro was a very odd choice in 2001, but I can’t get too worked up about it. Willie Hernandez or Mark Davis also seemed odd, but I think you can sort of understand if you bring in the sorts of squishy categories that people here hate. Same w/Ichiro.

by marc w on Aug 27, 2008 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm still baffled by Jimmy Rollins in 2007

by Alex B on Aug 28, 2008 12:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're not factoring in ignition.

by Teej on Aug 28, 2008 1:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Goddammit

There totally needs to be a metric for that.

by Alex B on Aug 28, 2008 5:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Given positional adjustments I think that one might've actually worked

by Jeff on Aug 28, 2008 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd agree

It’s somewhat tough to justify, but given a significant positional adjustment, I can see it.
Reasonable minds may disagree, etc. etc. Unlike Vaughn v. Belle or A-Rod v. Igor.

by marc w on Aug 28, 2008 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

What about Utley?

by Alex B on Aug 28, 2008 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Positional adj. + games played adjustment, and I can still sort of see it

No doubt Utley was better from a rate stat point of view.
If Utley’d won it, it wouldn’t have been a travesty.

by marc w on Aug 28, 2008 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wright?

by JI on Aug 28, 2008 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hanley?

Wright? Chipper? Utley?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 28, 2008 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not enough PT for Utley or Chipper.

by JI on Aug 28, 2008 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

better rate stats, but lower EqR totals, for example.

I still think Wright would’ve been my choice, but if you really think Rollins’ defense was great, I can see it.

by marc w on Aug 28, 2008 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

Perez (Oliver or Odalis)

by JI on Aug 28, 2008 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not with Hanley's glove

by Graham on Aug 28, 2008 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Frankie Rodriguez in 2008

by seattlebruin on Aug 27, 2008 5:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Sabathia in 2008.

When I saw the title, I thought we were looking for the worst ever single vote. And those were cast for Shannon Stewart and Chone Figgins over the past couple of years.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Aug 27, 2008 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well thats what I was going for, but this is fun too

by Karma Police on Aug 28, 2008 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Matsuzaka is going to get votes.

by Teej on Aug 27, 2008 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Deserves them more than K-Rod

by seattlebruin on Aug 27, 2008 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

It might not be fair to compare the tRA of a reliever to that of a starter, but we’re looking at 3.61 for Frankie and 4.47 for Matsuzaka.

by Teej on Aug 28, 2008 12:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Matsuzaka obviously has an advantage in innings,

but I would argue that he’s not pitching well enough that you’d really want his innings that badly.

by Teej on Aug 28, 2008 12:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd give a pretty huge bonus for pitching a lot more half decent innings

than for pitching a small number of somewhat better than half-decent innings

by seattlebruin on Aug 28, 2008 6:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is Matsuzaka likely to be any good going forward?

His control has been appalling this year and his strikeouts are down too.

by Alex B on Aug 28, 2008 6:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe this will bring the Yu Darvish bidding down to a reasonable price

by seattlebruin on Aug 28, 2008 6:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Trivia

Darvish’s father is a Seahawks fan as he used to work in the cafeteria at their training camp.

Massive ESPN piece on Darvish

by Alex B on Aug 28, 2008 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Again, another one of Caple's masterpieces

and the biggest reason I’ve been reading Page 2 since Simmons abruptly got mad and stopped writing for them

by seattlebruin on Aug 28, 2008 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

JI is Darvish's father?

by Robert on Aug 28, 2008 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

There's a reason I split reliever and starter tRA completely.

by Graham on Aug 28, 2008 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

What reason is that?

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Aug 29, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Relievers don't have to pace themselves and therefore are naturally inclined to pitch much more effectively.

by Graham on Aug 29, 2008 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Because I'm curious, then.

Who has had more value this year: Matsuzaka or Rodriguez?

(I hate defending Frankie, but I just can’t help but think he’s better than Matsuzaka.)

by Teej on Aug 30, 2008 1:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Per inning or overall?

by Graham on Aug 30, 2008 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Overall.

As in who would be more worthy of an MVP or Cy Young vote. But that’s a subjective thing, I admit.

I guess the fact that it’s even close is surprising to me. But Matsuzaka’s been better in the second half so he has probably closed the gap. My whole point was that Matsuzaka’s going to be even more overrated than Rodriguez come voting time because of the W-L record. And while Rodriguez’s numbers are inflated, I read somewhere that he’s pitched in more high-leverage situations than any other reliever in baseball. Might have been BP, but I can’t recall.

On Baseball Tonight last night, Eduardo Perez was asked to make the case for Matsuzaka for Cy Young, and apparently without realizing it the whole flaw in the argument, said: “Dice-K has been outstanding, because his offense has been outstanding.” Good reasoning, guys.

by Teej on Aug 30, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Matsuzaka by a little bit, but he's faced 2x as many batters.

by Graham on Aug 30, 2008 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pedro not winning the MVP in '99 or 2000

Seriously. Look at those years. Now put your eyes back in your skull. I don’t care that pitchers “have their own award” or any of that bull. Pedro basically puts on the greatest pitching performance in baseball history in the DH-laden, (potentially) steroid-riddled AL, with half his games in Fenway. Then comes out the next year and does the same thing, but not quite as good, and you’re telling me he’s not the most valuable player?

by Fez on Aug 28, 2008 12:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Not only should Pedro have been given the award those years,

but in 2001 it should have been renamed the Pedro Martinez award.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Aug 28, 2008 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pitchers have their own award

by JI on Aug 28, 2008 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I always thought it was a little weird

that pitchers can win both awards.

by Karma Police on Aug 28, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Because one of them is for pitching, and the other one is for being awesome.

Nothing in the MVP award description or voting instruction is there any reference to hitting or position players.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Aug 28, 2008 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well I guess it's weird that position players

don’t have a major award like the Cy Young for themselves. I know it doesn’t really matter that much, since there are a lot of bad voting decisions every year, but still I think it’s strange that there aren’t 3 major awards instead of just the 2.

by Karma Police on Aug 28, 2008 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

There's the Hank Aaron award.

It’s just newer and less publicized.

Needs MORE SUCK -- Strasburg '09!

by Double06 on Aug 28, 2008 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Doesn't include defense

In theory.

Of course, in practice, I suppose most of the time the MVP doesn’t either.

by Fez on Aug 28, 2008 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's what the Gold Gloves are for.

Everything has its own award, and then there’s the MVP for the best overall.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Aug 29, 2008 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've never known there were this many awards.

Link. If this list is complete, then pitcher’s aren’t eligible for 3. As a fan I wouldn’t mind a big name award specifically for an everyday player. Or just specifically exclude pitchers from the MVP and eliminate the debate. But that Rolaids Relief award looks pretty specia.

"Have love... will travel." The Sonics.

by dpseadv on Aug 30, 2008 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs