All-time worst MVP/Cy Young vote?
by Karma Police on Aug 27, 2008 4:14 PM PDT
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I was just looking over the 2001 AL Cy young voting, where because of 9/11 and his famous name, Roger Clemens stole the cy young from Freddy. Which reminded me how retarded some (most) of these "experts" are. So there has to be some idiot that voted someone like Craig Counsell one year cause he got a game-winning HBP once and the writer was smashed and it made him cry.
BONUS POINTS: worst first place vote?
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He had the same thing happen to him the next season
by JI on Aug 27, 2008 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I was looking at Clemens and he got robbed in 1990.
Bob “27-6” Welch won the award because the voters are stupid.
Most of these "experts" use stone-age stats such as ERA and Wins to determine a Cy Young winner.
And then sound surprised when someone with 20 something wins doesn’t get the Cy Young award. If you also look down the list of Cy Young awards, most winners, if not all in recent years pitched for contenders.
JI/Robert '08!
ERA may be an outdated statistic,
but it really shouldn’t be grouped in the same category of “stone-ageyness” as Wins.
Juan Gonzalez, 1996; Mo Vaughn, 1995; Jack McDowell, 1993;
Jorge Bell, 1987.
Others I didn’t particularly like (but aren’t the abominations on the level of the above) include Bedrosian, 1987; Ivan Rodriguez, 1999 (eh, the more I think about, this may be just as bad as some of the above); Gonzalez, 1998; Ryan Howard 2006.
Hmmm
I never realized how big the gap between Williams and DiMaggio that season was
Though DiMaggio’s record is pretty far up there on the list of the hardest records to break
by seattlebruin on Aug 27, 2008 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I was about to say 1957 until
I realized that must have been the greatest MVP race in history.
by JI on Aug 27, 2008 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, there just wasn't a wrong answer there
and I basically agree with the call the writers made, given positional adjustments. I just feel bad for Ted that TWO people had OBPs over .500 that year.
I thought about including Dawson
It was bad, but eclipsed (at least to me) by Jorge Bell the same year.
Mo Vaughn was absolutely terrible
I’d like to see the Belle v. Martinez breakdown
Mike Piazza was robbed in 1997
Ichiro was terrible in 2001
Sammy Sosa in 1998 was absolutely terrible as well.
by JI on Aug 27, 2008 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Good ones
The Vaughn one was just so transparently because voters didn’t like Belle… kind of like Ted Williams in 1941, when he lost based on a local writer picking him last or something. Reminds me a bit of Griffey losing in 1998 because TWO local sportswriters didn’t put him in the top 5.
Ichiro was a very odd choice in 2001, but I can’t get too worked up about it. Willie Hernandez or Mark Davis also seemed odd, but I think you can sort of understand if you bring in the sorts of squishy categories that people here hate. Same w/Ichiro.
Given positional adjustments I think that one might've actually worked
by Jeff Sullivan on Aug 28, 2008 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Positional adj. + games played adjustment, and I can still sort of see it
No doubt Utley was better from a rate stat point of view.
If Utley’d won it, it wouldn’t have been a travesty.
Sabathia in 2008.
When I saw the title, I thought we were looking for the worst ever single vote. And those were cast for Shannon Stewart and Chone Figgins over the past couple of years.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Really?
It might not be fair to compare the tRA of a reliever to that of a starter, but we’re looking at 3.61 for Frankie and 4.47 for Matsuzaka.
Matsuzaka obviously has an advantage in innings,
but I would argue that he’s not pitching well enough that you’d really want his innings that badly.
I'd give a pretty huge bonus for pitching a lot more half decent innings
than for pitching a small number of somewhat better than half-decent innings
by seattlebruin on Aug 28, 2008 6:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Is Matsuzaka likely to be any good going forward?
His control has been appalling this year and his strikeouts are down too.
Maybe this will bring the Yu Darvish bidding down to a reasonable price
by seattlebruin on Aug 28, 2008 6:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Trivia
Darvish’s father is a Seahawks fan as he used to work in the cafeteria at their training camp.
Again, another one of Caple's masterpieces
and the biggest reason I’ve been reading Page 2 since Simmons abruptly got mad and stopped writing for them
by seattlebruin on Aug 28, 2008 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions
There's a reason I split reliever and starter tRA completely.
by Graham MacAree on Aug 28, 2008 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Relievers don't have to pace themselves and therefore are naturally inclined to pitch much more effectively.
by Graham MacAree on Aug 29, 2008 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Because I'm curious, then.
Who has had more value this year: Matsuzaka or Rodriguez?
(I hate defending Frankie, but I just can’t help but think he’s better than Matsuzaka.)
Overall.
As in who would be more worthy of an MVP or Cy Young vote. But that’s a subjective thing, I admit.
I guess the fact that it’s even close is surprising to me. But Matsuzaka’s been better in the second half so he has probably closed the gap. My whole point was that Matsuzaka’s going to be even more overrated than Rodriguez come voting time because of the W-L record. And while Rodriguez’s numbers are inflated, I read somewhere that he’s pitched in more high-leverage situations than any other reliever in baseball. Might have been BP, but I can’t recall.
On Baseball Tonight last night, Eduardo Perez was asked to make the case for Matsuzaka for Cy Young, and apparently without realizing it the whole flaw in the argument, said: “Dice-K has been outstanding, because his offense has been outstanding.” Good reasoning, guys.
Pedro not winning the MVP in '99 or 2000
Seriously. Look at those years. Now put your eyes back in your skull. I don’t care that pitchers “have their own award” or any of that bull. Pedro basically puts on the greatest pitching performance in baseball history in the DH-laden, (potentially) steroid-riddled AL, with half his games in Fenway. Then comes out the next year and does the same thing, but not quite as good, and you’re telling me he’s not the most valuable player?
Not only should Pedro have been given the award those years,
but in 2001 it should have been renamed the Pedro Martinez award.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Yeah I always thought it was a little weird
that pitchers can win both awards.
by Karma Police on Aug 28, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Because one of them is for pitching, and the other one is for being awesome.
Nothing in the MVP award description or voting instruction is there any reference to hitting or position players.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Well I guess it's weird that position players
don’t have a major award like the Cy Young for themselves. I know it doesn’t really matter that much, since there are a lot of bad voting decisions every year, but still I think it’s strange that there aren’t 3 major awards instead of just the 2.
by Karma Police on Aug 28, 2008 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions
There's the Hank Aaron award.
It’s just newer and less publicized.
Needs MORE SUCK -- Strasburg '09!
Doesn't include defense
In theory.
Of course, in practice, I suppose most of the time the MVP doesn’t either.
That's what the Gold Gloves are for.
Everything has its own award, and then there’s the MVP for the best overall.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
I've never known there were this many awards.
Link. If this list is complete, then pitcher’s aren’t eligible for 3. As a fan I wouldn’t mind a big name award specifically for an everyday player. Or just specifically exclude pitchers from the MVP and eliminate the debate. But that Rolaids Relief award looks pretty specia.
"Have love... will travel." The Sonics.
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