Lookout Landing: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Spencer Hall's Sports Meme Power Rankings

U.S. Cellular Field cares less about the on-field product than Safeco Field.

Today was my first and probably last game ever at U.S. Cellular field. Wrigley will hopefully be more fun than the shit-hole that was U.S. Cellular. If you think Safeco worships children and doesn't care what happens on the field, holy crap this puts it to shame.

We all hate the Hydro races. Well, they had two big screen races--Pizza (Cheese vs. Pepperoni vs. Supreme) and McDonalds (Big Mac vs. Fries vs. McGriddle). The crowd went wild for both.

They had a contest for a kid 10 or under to hit a home run, where they're in a small area of the park hitting a ball off a tee over a fence almost 30 feet away with a bunch of random people cheering, then they run the bases that are like 20 feet away from them, and the crowd goes wild.

They had T-Shirt throwing and cars driving on the warning track between innings. They were winning a close game at the time and everyone got up and yelled for shirts.

They had "Wave cam" between innings. Which isn't what you think, they just panned through the crowd and had people wave and smile so they could say they were on the big screen.

They had a video ring around the upper deck, with the player's name and their eyes on it when they came up to bat, and a bunch of huge ads when the M's were batting.

The most advanced stat they put anywhere was total walks, tucked away in a corner, no OBP or SLG anywhere. Not even the first time a player came up. It was AVG/HR/RBI all the way there.

They played literally 4 different intro songs before and during the White Sox taking the field. The whole crowd cheered about as loud when they announced the starting lineup for the White Sox as I did when they announced the Mariners lineup. They also had a bunch of "Get loud" signs during the big innings--no one cheered otherwise. On Cabrera's HR, no one cheered till it was literally over the fence.

They did the wave, a lot. It went around the stadium 10-15 times as the Mariners actually managed to get 3 quick outs, and no one seemed to notice.

They had contests to win hats and baseballs and food and gift cards and shit by answering easy questions such as "Who threw the last no hitter for the White Sox?" after showing clips of Buehrle's no hitter for.

They also advertised US Cellular products and had some girl say their slogan while standing in the crowd between innings. Also they put trivia and stuff on the video board DURING innings. I mean seriously. They displayed the guess the attendance thing during the 6th inning. While the players were playing. And the crowd erupted when the final number of the multiple choices went up on the board. There's proof that they weren't watching the game.

All the while I was talking to a Cubs fan who got free tickets from a White Sox fan buddy. It was his first time in U.S. Cellular and he just sounded disgusted talking about how horrible the atmosphere was all game. Hopefully he's right and Wrigley is better tomorrow. Because U.S. Cellular just accomplished what I thought was impossible before. The White Sox have created an atmosphere at their stadium that encourages fans to care less about the on-field product than even Safeco does. I expected to lose when we showed up at the park but I still ended up being angry because I learned the White Sox organization and fans are worse at being baseball fans than even Safeco fans are. They should be embarrassed.

0 recs  |  Comment 96 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

All the attention to children is sadly misplaced...

…since every Chicago resident knows full well that no child can safely make it in and out of the Cell alive.

"Maybe Chief has to go and grab somebody from his neck and throw him into the wall."

by esoteric on Aug 19, 2008 12:40 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

HOWEVER, I will point out that the fan atmosphere at the Cell is normally the exact opposite of what you described....

…full of intense grognard baseball fans who care deeply about their team and are reasonably knowledgeable about it. Quite the contrast from the fratboy/sororitygirl beer-garden that Wrigley has become in the last five years. Why was it so dead today? Gee, I have no idea why that might be. I mean, a weekday night with such a marquee draw of a team? Who wouldn’t come out to see the Mariners?

"Maybe Chief has to go and grab somebody from his neck and throw him into the wall."

by esoteric on Aug 19, 2008 12:43 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes, Wrigley's better than that.

It also comes equipped with zombie groundskeepers.

by eponymous_coward on Aug 19, 2008 1:33 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Jesus I'm an idiot. Here's the rest of the post:

I made a long-planned trip to Chicago a few years ago with my best friend, who was in grad school at the University of Missouri. I flew to Columbia, and we drove up to Chicago to spend a few days watching baseball and seeing the city. My impressions:

Wrigley Field: Awesome stadium, deplorable people. We arrived right when the gates opened so we could walk around and see the whole stadium. We watched BP and fielding practice, and got to jaw with the players. It was a lot of fun. The park is something you have to see, and it did not disappoint. Once the rest of the fans started trickling in, however, things changed. I’d say 90% of the people we sat next to were either deplorable assholes or just drunk enough to act as such. We were kicked, screamed at and otherwise harassed, and we were wearing Cubs hats. The fans paid zero attention to the game and appeared to only be there as a social event. I was 23 and drunk and ready to have some fun, and even I was disgusted by the actions of the people around me. We left in the fourth inning.

Comiskey Field: Not an awesome stadium, but quite comfortable. We sat next to some great people who — after finding out we were from out of town — bought us several beers and regaled us with stories of the White Sox’ history. They were a bit “riffraff,” if you will, but they were awesome. I felt like I was hanging around baseball fans. They knew their team, and they knew how to cheer.

On the other hand . . .

Wrigleyville: Amazingly dense, and populated with great bars, great pizza places, and just all-around greatness.

South Side: Amazingly sparce, and populated with . . . houses. The park is seriously just right in the middle of a residential area with no bars, no anything. We had to walk seven or eight blocks to find the first bar. It was Schaller’s Pump. No hot chicks, no good pizza, and absolutely no Cubs fans allowed. It was a middle-America restaurant, complete with waitresses who were all over 55. They are sweethearts and treat you with respect, despite the fact that you’re obviously in a townie bar and no one else in the place is under 40. The guys at the bar looked like they all pretty much lived there. My friend and I each had a full meal and two beers, and our check was around $15. I fell in love.

So yeah, in short, Comiskey isn’t the greatest park, but on a trip where I expected Wrigley to be heaven and Comiskey to be hell, I found it to be pretty much the opposite. It’s all about the people.

by Teej on Aug 19, 2008 2:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I went to Wrigley a couple times in 2001 and it was like Mecca

It’s sad to hear how pathetic the stadium’s denizens have since become.

by katal on Aug 19, 2008 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I went to a game at the Cell last August

And I found the exact opposite of this. I thought the stadium was pretty minimalist (“Wait, this is your team store? Weak!”) and put a lot of emphasis on the game. All the fans in my area were pretty knowledgeable, and I really got a kick out of one guy giving Kenny Lofton shit the whole time. I thought the scoreboard was tasteful (though, yeah, two races are a bit much) and the videos were generally better quality than anywhere I had seen in baseball.

So I thought it was strange reading your post, because I actually like going to the Sox game in the South Side better than I liked going to a Mariners game at the Safe. Guess the crowds changed a bit.

Raben died for your sins.

by rlintott on Aug 19, 2008 6:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I like the hydro races.

I did not like Wrigley. Well, I liked the history and the feel of it. I did not like the atmosphere. As was previously noted, it was like being in a frat house—except without any good-natured teasing. The Giants were losing 6-0, and still the Cubs fans couldn’t handle any ribbing. They were obnoxious and took themselves way too seriously.
I know Cubs fans. I know that they’re not all like this. So I hope you find yourself amidst good ones.

Finally, some recognition.

by NOLAmarinergirl on Aug 19, 2008 7:00 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I disagree

I’ve never met a Cubs fan who wasn’t like this, but maybe I’m just unlucky :(

by WCLittleGiant on Aug 19, 2008 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you just had a bad night which can happen anywhere.

At Fenway, you can sit next to the douchebag fans who throw beer on 40+ year old women with the other team’s hat on or you sit next to the guy who tells stories about Yaz, Lynn, Fisk, etc.

by Jed MC on Aug 19, 2008 7:29 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Fenway was generally full of the story tellers and older fans that had been there in the dark years when I was there.

Though I’ve heard stories about it not being so great with obnoxious bandwagon style Red Sox Nation fans, which was not my Fenway experience at all.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Aug 19, 2008 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

US Cellular isn't awful

I’ve been twice and enjoyed it both times. Last year I went when the M’s were in town and they were holding “Japanese Appreciation Night” so there were tons of Mariners and Ichiro fans. It was a one run game in the bottom of the ninth so the fans were more into it. It was fun as an M’s fan because they were in the hunt for the wild card and games mattered. I miss those times.

by WCLittleGiant on Aug 19, 2008 8:26 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

All you need is the Rally Monkey and it's Angel Stadium..

Although I agree mostly that that sort of filler is lame and I personally pay attention to the game, I don’t see what is wrong with in beween innings contests/TV races, no matter how pointless they might be. It’s really not taking anything away from the game except watching the fielders/pitcher warm up. I usually just ignore the contests or realize what’s going on too late because Im oogling over Ichiro or Felix or something.

And unfortunately, Im sure that Cubs fan is like the Angels fans I run into down here who act like Dodger stadium was the one with the rat problem.

by seamariners85 on Aug 19, 2008 8:26 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I like animals

I would like to hit the Rally Monkey with my car, despite the fact that it would probably dent my car

The Jose Lopez Watch - 147 H, 17 BB, 39 G Left

by seattlebruin on Aug 19, 2008 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The ChiSox were probably the only reason I could fathom for going to the south side

Thanks for the heads-up. Now I can avoid that area entirely next time I visit ;P

by Gomez on Aug 19, 2008 8:30 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If I get there and back without dying

Next time I go, I’ll ask you to name drop some places… and I’ll consider venturing into the deep.

by Gomez on Aug 19, 2008 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shame on them for wanting to entertain the crowd between innings.

You have to realize that most the costumers aren’t hardcore fans like are, and they like these sort of things. Who gives a shit whether they shoot off t-shirts between innings?

9 = 8

by JI on Aug 19, 2008 8:31 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

No no no
They had a video ring around the upper deck, with the player’s name and their eyes on it when they came up to bat, and a bunch of huge ads when the M’s were batting.
Also they put trivia and stuff on the video board DURING innings. I mean seriously. They displayed the guess the attendance thing during the 6th inning. While the players were playing. And the crowd erupted when the final number of the multiple choices went up on the board. There’s proof that they weren’t watching the game.

Besides, Brett’s point wasn’t that he was upset that they were doing promotions in between innings. It was about how inane said activities were.

by katal on Aug 19, 2008 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My response would be because baseball isn't being enjoyed that way

When a team puts on a hydro race or whatever between innings, then they are sending a message to fans that baseball is boring. I don’t think that teams need to be reinforcing that stigma.

by katal on Aug 19, 2008 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Between innings is a great time to catch up on scoring.

Getting pitch counts added up, moving past runners up from faster plays, filling in details for new players.

by Faux on Aug 19, 2008 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This 1% does.

That’s all I really give a shit about.

by Faux on Aug 19, 2008 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not complaining.

I could care less what keeps the drooling masses happy, as long as they don’t drown out the pitching/defense change announcements.

I was just sharing, and in a way pointing out that if you don’t like what happens between innings, find something else to do instead. I keep score, some people hit on the chick two rows up, or start looking for the nearest beer stop.

by Faux on Aug 19, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right.

As long as it doesn’t interfere with the actual game, I won’t care. I’ll still deride it because I find it mindless, but I’m just going to ignore it.

I take umbrage the second it impacts gameplay.

That includes Howard Lincoln saying that fans remember the hydro races before they remember the score and the wave. You want to do the wave between innings? Fine, whatever. But sit your fat ass down the second play starts up again.

by Matthew on Aug 19, 2008 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, I might like the hydros, but mostly only when they take my mind off horrible play.

For “fans” to say that they remember them over the score is just pathetic.

Finally, some recognition.

by NOLAmarinergirl on Aug 19, 2008 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't I didn't even begin to notice the hydros until years after my first game.

The thing I remember about the my first game was Erik Hanson pwning the Twins.

9 = 8

by JI on Aug 19, 2008 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The thing I remember about my first game

was how everyone was talking about how we just traded Randy Johnson because Chuck Armstrong is a moron.

by Robert on Aug 19, 2008 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

You're 400 people?

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Aug 19, 2008 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But between innings, there is no baseball

and to be quite honest, you shouldn’t expect a typical fan at any sporting event to be entirely 100% mesmerized by every occurrence on the field/court/whatever. People go to sporting events to be entertained – the product on the field provides the majority of that entertainment, but there’s no reason why the rest of that stuff shouldn’t be there

Is it stupid? Yeah, it’s stupid, and the real hardcore fans don’t need it, but whatever – you can ignore it just like you can ignore Geoff Baker. Talk to the guy next to you about Ichiro’s hot streak. Go get a beer. There are lots of things you can do besides watch the hydro race

The ♥ Jose Lopez ♥ Watch - 148 H, 17 BB, 38 G Left

by seattlebruin on Aug 19, 2008 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

WAIT JUST A MINUTE I THOUGHT ICHIRO SUCKED AND SHOULD BE TRADED!

ok, maybe I need to read less mainstream media.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Aug 19, 2008 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's it

When I’m at Safeco, I’m spending my time between innings talking to whoever I’m with about what just happened, or getting a beer, etc. I haven’t found a use for the hat trick or the hydro races since I was a kid. Other people feel differently, but I just haven’t wrapped my mind around that yet.

by katal on Aug 19, 2008 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What about the stuff while the game is going on?

I can understand the stuff between innings… but flashing trivia and stuff during gameplay?

by Gomez on Aug 19, 2008 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's fair enough

The ♥ Jose Lopez ♥ Watch - 148 H, 17 BB, 38 G Left

by seattlebruin on Aug 19, 2008 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Mariners do this all the time

You can always look at the field instead of the monitors.

9 = 8

by JI on Aug 19, 2008 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly. I feel the same way

Between innings is when I usually get food, or if i am scoring, check the scorecard over, or talk to whoever i am by about the game.

BUT I have family members who live for the hat trick and I know people who like the hydro races.

With so many different kinds of people at baseball games; some devout BASEBALL fans, others just going for a night out, “good” food, and entertanment, some of those things we may find dumb are what keep other fans coming

by Smith18 on Aug 19, 2008 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's all about the marketing, they have fans labeled and grouped.

Sports-priority spectator group, know the strategy, players, stats, only interested in the game. Social priority group, just an outing, taking in the experience.

"Ask them hitters about the curve. They'll tell you. It's Public Enemy Number 1." -Charlie Dressen.

by dpseadv on Aug 19, 2008 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't like New Comiskey much

I used to go there a lot when I was little.

As far as the McDonald’s races- McDonald’s is based in Oak Brook, Ill. It would be akin to Seattle have Microsoft Office races or something

Determined, Jonesing Commentor

by I'm NOT Corco on Aug 19, 2008 8:36 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

"It appears that I am owning you in a footrace.

Do you want to:

- Quit now, you little bitch?
- Run harder, only to get owned anyway?
- Win after I get sucker-tackled by AJ Burnett?"

by Gomez on Aug 19, 2008 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did the people cheer for the GET LOUD signs?

If not, I have a bunch f respect for White Sox fans. The Obey-o-tron needs to be stopped.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Aug 19, 2008 9:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I always found it weird that people voluntarily go to a sporting event specifically to be entertained

and then have to be told by a flashing sign when to entertain themselves.

I wonder if the scoreboard started flashing “Slap yourself!”how many people would do it.

by Matthew on Aug 19, 2008 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm entertained by WATCHING THE GAME

I don’t necessarily want to cheer.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Aug 19, 2008 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh you better believe it. They did exactly what the screen said.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Aug 19, 2008 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chicago parks

Wrigley Field is still my favorite park (I attended my first outdoor game there) and in a great neighborhood. There is nothing quite like taking the El to the Addison stop on a game day. The crowd is pretty mixed, so it is essentially a lottery whether you sit next to the mean drunks (of all kinds), the happy drunks (who are usually in the majority), the hardcore old-timey fan, the guy in a suit with his phone to his ear the whole game, a family from the suburbs, or other out-of-towners.

New Comiskey was built on the cheap and feels like a late 1980s mall. Sitting in the lower deck is not too bad, but the upper deck is steeper and farther removed than the old 300 level in the Kingdome — you look down, way down, on fly balls. Of course, in the cheaper seats, you also find more of the hardcore, old Chicago fans. One of my favorite game experiences was sitting near the top of the upper deck talking to a Teamster type (straight out of a 1950s movie) who gave a long oral history of the team. But when he got to what the Sox should do (and this was years before Moneyball or Baseball Prospectus), he basically outlined the concept of on-base plus slugging percentage without using those terms (“walks don’t slump” . . . “we need more guys like that Thomas kid because he doesn’t swing until you give him something he can crush” . . . “all Guillen does is make outs at the plate, who needs him”).

I saw one game at Old Comiskey during its last season. It was almost like visiting one of the lesser preserved castles in Europe — the place was a relic, but amidst the crumbling walls, some of the grandeur remained.

by G_ on Aug 19, 2008 11:19 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

You sat next to a Cubs fan, Brett. I imagine that'll color your game experience a little bit.

when I was in Chicago, I ran into a couple other Mariner fans to hang with and talked with an older White Sox fan guy in the upper deck one game.

I think some of the better fans sit up in the third deck. I feel like it’s a status thing when you have to put down $30 or more on a seat to go to a baseball game, not about being a baseball fan. That doesn’t mean that people in the upper deck know things like advanced sabermetrics, but they probably care a little more about the game and the team than the guys behind home plate who get on their cell phones and wave.

Red is the exception of this.

I forgot to mention, there’s a hole-in-the-wall pizza place about a block east of Wrigley (between the El and the field) that has ridiculously huge slices of pizza. I’ve gone there a small handful of times and enjoyed it.

by Two Rs and Two Ls on Aug 19, 2008 11:43 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Lower deck seats were only $15 last night so the rich excuse doesn't apply...

The Cubs fan was with a white sox fan and there were white sox fans on my left and behind me. Two of them cheered when they were paying attention…I’ll have to look for that pizza after the game..what’s the name of it?

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Aug 19, 2008 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bacci Pizza, I think.

I had to do a little google-map searching for it.

by Two Rs and Two Ls on Aug 19, 2008 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have to take the side of the majority here

and say that my Cell Block experience was completely the opposite of yours. Sure, they had the scoreboard antics and some other fan interaction stuff that I didn’t pay to much attention to, but the overall crowd interest was in the game.

Grant it, they were playing the Angels in late May, which is a lot different than the Mariners in mid-August, which might be a good indicator of the fluff. They may have ramped up the scoreboard interaction and the on the field stuff in anticipation of the crap they figured the M’s were bringing with them.

Wrigley is a another experience. The atmosphere is amazing, although I do hear the fans can be a major pain in the ass in certain sections.

by Trent on Aug 19, 2008 1:05 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Still a bit of Veeck

I have attended about 15 games at New Comiskey/U.S. Cell and 3 at Wrigley since ’94. The crowd at Wrigley was more concerned with beer than baseball, to a point where watching baseball was sometimes impeded. I never had that problem at Comiskey.

At one of my first games at Comiskey I saw fans over the visitor’s dugout give Albert Belle the praying-to-Mecca style we’re-not- worthy salute after he hit his third homer of the game. I was pleasantly surprised.

I also attended a game at Comiskey during which a crappy used car was given away every inning!

My favorite bit of baseball culture during my time in Chicago was a Sox radio station billboard near Wrigley field that read “Major League Baseball, 8.1 Miles South.”

by two_hands on Aug 19, 2008 4:06 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Sacrilege!

The crowd at Wrigley was more concerned with beer than baseball, to a point where watching baseball was sometimes impeded.

I don’t think this means what you think this means.

by AZSEAfan on Aug 19, 2008 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A History of Sacrilege

What does it mean or what do I think it means?

by two_hands on Aug 20, 2008 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The issue of entertainment at the ballgame came up at Zephyrs field last night.

I have a friend who is a Red Sox fan (no, she’s not a bandwaggoning member of the RSN so let’s just leave it be) who pointed out that things such as raffles, racing against the mascot and throwing contests are unusual when one no longer sees them at a major league baseball game.

Her point was that those who go to Fenway are fans enough that they don’t need the special promotions to bring them to the game. At Zephs field, there is apparently not enough between innings entertainment to bring people to the stadium.

Baseball’s a complex game. It’s a game that often takes a bit of smarts. To really get into it, you need to understand it. You need to know the players. You need to be able to realize some of the strategy behind it. We can’t expect everyone going to a game to know these things. Maybe it’ll be some sort of silly promotion that brings someone in for the first time, or maybe it will be the giant flashing screen that captivates a kid. But maybe they talk to someone at the game who is willing to teach them about the team and the players. When those people keep coming back and start learning the game, that’s a new fan. And if we don’t keep creating new fans, we’re going to lose baseball.

Finally, some recognition.

by NOLAmarinergirl on Aug 20, 2008 7:15 AM PDT reply actions   3 recs

Before the renovation

New Comiskey did not seem like this at all. I went to a Thursday day game in I think 2000 where the Sox lost something like 13-2. My clearest memory was of some guy repeatedly trying to start the wave until someone behind me complained “We don’t do the wave in Chicago.” The guy immediately stopped. There were only about 10 to 15,000 people there, but they were watching the game.

by shinallsrevenge on Aug 20, 2008 8:37 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

By reading a game thread of your own volition you agree to accept all liability for any and all damage done to your delicate sensibilities.
Start posting about the Mariners »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Max_small
FootbaLL IV (Nov 21st)
Small
The Sabermetrics of Cats

Recent FanPosts

Small
WAR gains major exposure
Laughing_man_elmex_small
AFL Championship game thread
Smell-the-glove_small
OFFTOP 11/19 - The Hand of Fraud
Small
Tony Blengino interview on 710 AM ESPN Seattle's Hot Stove League
Ichirocameron_small
OTFPOTD 11/16: Recipes Edition
Small
Lookout Landing as a communtiy
Small
Royals determined to unload Callaspo...
Ichiro_small
Ackley and Triunfel on MLB TV right now

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Sexy People

1_small Graham

Small Matthew

Small Jeff