AL West and NL Central: Imbalanced and Unfair

by Brent Beck on Jul 30, 2008 8:28 AM PDT

Hey Mariners fans, I wrote an article that I posted on Red Reporter about the uneven division sizes in Major League Baseball, a dilemma which effects NL Central fans the most by putting us at a disadvantage at the start of every season (in comparison to every other team in Major League Baseball). In my mind its an outrage but I would love for you guys to check it out, drop a vote in, or even make a comment! I would really love to hear Mariners fans take on this dilemma because in my opinion the only way to fix the imbalance is by moving the Houston Astros to the NL West and the Arizona Diamond Backs to the AL West, making every division in Major League Baseball have 5 teams.

Thanks!

by Brent Beck

0 recs | Comment 64 comments

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The reason MLB didn't do this in the first place is that each league would have 15 teams, creating uneven leagues

Thus either one team would have to take an entire series off or play an interleague series. The only alternative is to have uneven leagues.

The only way to solve the uneven problem is to expand by 2 teams or contract 2 teams. Selig tried the contraction idea, and it obviously ran into stiff resistance.

by Gomez on Jul 30, 2008 8:36 AM PDT 0 recs

Correction

Thus either one team would have to take an entire series off or play an interleague series at all times.

by Gomez on Jul 30, 2008 8:37 AM PDT up 0 recs

uh...

Several points to make:

1) The odds of teams in five-team divisions making the playoffs isn’t actually 20% because of the Wild Card. It’s a bit more, but I’m too lazy to figure out how much.

2) What Gomez said. We all know that interleague play is a very special time where age-old rivalries (like the Mariners and Padres!) get rekindled. Having constant interleague play would utterly destroy what has quickly become most baseball fans’ favorite time of the year. I’m Bud Selig, and I approve this message.

3) You say that Reds and Pirates fans should complain about the current setup because “the last time they were both in the playoffs was 1990 when they met in the NLCS.” Wait, what? How does this matter at all? They haven’t both been in the playoffs in a while because since the divisions were rearranged, they’ve both been in the same division and neither has won the wild card in that time. Also, it’s pretty easy to see that this point is fairly absurd in the first place. Do you want to know the last time that the Mariners and Angels were both in the playoffs? Never.

4) Related to that, Cincinnati would only have much to complain about if they were consistently finishing in 2nd place. Any ranking below second place means that removing one team from their division wouldn’t have any impact on their making the playoffs. The last time that Cincinnati placed 2nd in the NL Central was 2000, when four non-NL Central teams finished with better records. Cincinnati can’t blame its lack of playoff appearances on unlucky division groupings—the problem lies in having a team that hasn’t been good enough to make it to the playoffs in almost a decade.

I apparently have too much time on my hands.

by Nadingo on Jul 30, 2008 8:47 AM PDT 0 recs

Just because the team's been bad doesn't mean it hasn't also been at an inherent disadvantage.

by Jeff on Jul 30, 2008 8:50 AM PDT up 0 recs

True

and in theory, the main thrust of his argument is valid, though his arguments to support it aren’t so great.

My point is that for this disadvantage to actually have an impact, the following would have to happen, taking Cincinnati as an example team:

1) Cincinnati would have to finish in 2nd place in the NL Central
2) Cincinnati’s W/L record would have to be worse than the Wild Card winner
3) Cincinnati’s record would have to be better than one of the other division winners.

Then the actual disadvantage would be how much more likely the above happens in a six-team division than in a five- or four-team division. The above circumstances aren’t impossible - they describe exactly what happened to the 2003 Mariners, for example - but I’m guessing that they happen rarely enough that actual disadvantage faced by teams in the NL central is pretty tiny.

by Nadingo on Jul 30, 2008 8:59 AM PDT up 0 recs

Also:

Because of the Wild Card, a team generally has to be the 4th best in the league to make the playoffs. The relevant percentages then are:

AL: 4/14 = 28.6%
NL: 4/16 = 25.0%

And this disadvantage applies to the entire NL, not just the Central Division.

Of course, when division winners aren’t one of the top 4, 5, or even 6 teams, it screws that percentage up, but I’m pretty sure the general principle holds.

by Nadingo on Jul 30, 2008 9:17 AM PDT up 0 recs

Another thing to note is that the Pirates and Reds haven't played or been run particularly well over the last 15 years

by Gomez on Jul 30, 2008 9:05 AM PDT up 0 recs

That's what I was thinking.

The Rays were able to turn it around with all their high draft picks. The Pirates have traded anything with value for awhile now. Reds….I dunno. (and for Brian’s sake, I do not know.)

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Jul 30, 2008 9:34 AM PDT up 0 recs

Aren't there only two first round picks taking the field for the Rays every day?

Most of their current roster seems to have been acquired via trade or late-round draft picks.

by BrianL on Jul 30, 2008 9:36 AM PDT up 0 recs

Suppose so. But having high rounders to trade also helps.

Delmon Young comes to mind. I’d have to dig to see who else may have been moved.

Maybe they are just better at evaluating talent, or maybe player development, or just plain luck.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Jul 30, 2008 9:52 AM PDT up 0 recs

If a team wanted to complain, Texas is the one that should be doing the bitching...

They are the only team that has all of the rest of its division members located 2 time zones away.

Thats a major strain on travel expendatures, TV viewership and general wear and tear on players.

by laxtonto on Jul 30, 2008 8:58 AM PDT 0 recs

Yes, in travel expenditures Texas should complain much more than Seattle

Why, they’re in the same time zone as TWO divisional rivals!

Time zones!

by marc w on Jul 30, 2008 9:06 AM PDT up 0 recs

Didn't somebody do a study

that showed that teams that cross several time zones before a game play worse than teams that don’t?

by Nadingo on Jul 30, 2008 9:08 AM PDT up 0 recs

BIngo

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/sports/baseball/29score.html?fta=y

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=out-of-the-zone-jet-lagge

Basically the study says it isnt a great of a factor of say home feild advantage but it is statistically signifigant and equates out to +or – 1 or 2 runs…

So basiclly teams that dont get screwed on travel win more? Wow

by laxtonto on Jul 30, 2008 9:29 AM PDT up 0 recs

So if anyone should be complaining, it's teams like the M's, the Rockies and the Rangers

by Gomez on Jul 30, 2008 9:32 AM PDT up 0 recs

Haven't the M's been complaining about this for a while?

Especially with all of the 2 game series that have cropped up over the past copule of years.

by Jed MC on Jul 30, 2008 9:37 AM PDT up 0 recs

Yes, they complained to Donald Fehr this spring

by marc w on Jul 30, 2008 10:29 AM PDT up 0 recs

I refuse to let anyone complain about travel more than the M's

The M’s will travel over 55,000 miles this season, and I don’t think that having teams in the time zone offsets just how far they have to fly to play ANYBODY.

by marc w on Jul 30, 2008 10:28 AM PDT up 0 recs

It's not the travel affecting the team...

...so much as all the west coast games starting at 9 PM in Texas that Rangers fans grumble about. Sure you can stay up a night or two, but generally there are west coast swings that suck.

And that reduction in TV viewership leads to less money from the local TV contracts.

by GhettoBear04 on Jul 30, 2008 1:15 PM PDT up 0 recs

Clearly they're not as devoted as those of us following teams not in our time zones.

I would do cartwheels over my name written in sand

by NOLAmarinergirl on Jul 30, 2008 1:23 PM PDT up 0 recs

Again, think of it the other way

How do you think people with jobs like M’s east-coast swings?
The game’s in the 7th or 8th when I get home. Awesome.
A primetime game versus Boston or New York, and it starts at… 4pm. That’s gotta nuke TV contract money too (though you sure as hell can’t tell from the M’s TV deal).

by marc w on Jul 30, 2008 1:48 PM PDT up 0 recs

I absolutely hate east coast swings.

It’s hard enough for me to catch a central time-zone game.

by BrianL on Jul 30, 2008 2:41 PM PDT up 0 recs

Why is Pittsburgh in the Central?

Shouldn’t they be in the East?

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 30, 2008 9:00 AM PDT 0 recs

They're not as far east as NYM, WAS, PHI, FLA or ATL

Had Florida indeed moved out west, that would have solved that problem as it would’ve allowed MLB to realign the NL and shift the Pirates back into the NL East.

by Gomez on Jul 30, 2008 9:04 AM PDT up 0 recs

This problem could be solved with a tugboat.

I would do cartwheels over my name written in sand

by NOLAmarinergirl on Jul 30, 2008 9:07 AM PDT up 0 recs

LFoJL needs to make a Tug-boat.

Get it?

Go Nova

by dbroncos31 on Jul 30, 2008 9:21 AM PDT up 0 recs

What little there was to get.

by BrianL on Jul 30, 2008 9:25 AM PDT up 0 recs

With the addition of Milwaukee

They could have won that Geography bee.

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 30, 2008 9:12 AM PDT up 0 recs

Or the NL East could be the division to have 6 teams.

We don't negotiate with terrorists.

by Mariner John on Jul 30, 2008 1:19 PM PDT up 0 recs

It could go either way

Travel between PIT and the other Central cities is still relatively short.

by Gomez on Jul 30, 2008 2:43 PM PDT up 0 recs

Here's an idea

If this is considered truly an unfair arrangement, MLB could solve the problem for now by overhauling the NL into four divisions of 4 teams each, eliminating the NL Wildcard, and simply awarding playoff spots to the four division champs. The AL could just retain the same division and playoff format. It would further that identity difference that’s kinda-sorta developed (thanks, DH rule!) between the NL and the AL.

by Gomez on Jul 30, 2008 9:12 AM PDT 0 recs

I like that even less

Honestly, I think the WC makes up for most of the unfairness.

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 30, 2008 9:13 AM PDT up 0 recs

Just throwing the idea out there

Not saying it’s the best idea.

by Gomez on Jul 30, 2008 9:15 AM PDT up 0 recs

The fairest way

Would be to do away with divisions and take the top 4 teams.

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 30, 2008 9:16 AM PDT up 0 recs

Yes, like English FA sub-divisions!

I’d be down with this.

by Gomez on Jul 30, 2008 9:18 AM PDT up 0 recs

You would need a balanced schedule to do this.

by Wilder. on Jul 30, 2008 4:52 PM PDT up 0 recs

Just merge the leagues.

I know you’d have to solve the whole DH issue, but with interleague every year, we’re getting closer and closer to this. The separate league offices and umpires were done away with years ago. 30 teams in one league, 6 divisions, 5 teams in each.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 30, 2008 9:43 AM PDT 0 recs

Except that 95% of everyone would hate this.

I think everybody should play everybody, but all the fans I mention this to hate this idea.

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 30, 2008 9:48 AM PDT up 0 recs

Baseball is slow to change.

It’s a goddamn glacier.

by BrianL on Jul 30, 2008 9:58 AM PDT up 0 recs

I'm not opposed to change

but I don’t want everybody to play everybody. Part of what made baseball unique for so long was that the WS opponents never faced each other in the regular season; interleague play has killed that off. I’m not violently opposed to interleague as it stands now, it’s fine I guess, but I wouldn’t want to see it expanded.

Baseball is the quirkiest professional sport in the US – nonstandard outfield dimensions, different rules for different leagues, etc – and any move to make it more uniform and less quirky will and should be met with opposition.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Jul 30, 2008 10:03 AM PDT up 0 recs

Hear, hear!

Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?

by The Alaskan on Jul 30, 2008 11:16 AM PDT up 0 recs

Have the DH rule for the 1st half of the year, then eliminate it after the All Star Break

by Gomez on Jul 30, 2008 10:10 AM PDT up 0 recs

16 DH teams, 14 not.

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 30, 2008 10:11 AM PDT up 0 recs

Random lottery each March to see which teams get to use the DH!

by Matthew on Jul 30, 2008 10:14 AM PDT up 0 recs

Home team rules

come on people, it’s really that obvious

The Jose Lopez Watch - 129H - 16 BB - 56 G Left

by seattlebruin on Jul 30, 2008 10:16 AM PDT up 0 recs

Who knew how genius this idea really was.

I would do cartwheels over my name written in sand

by NOLAmarinergirl on Jul 30, 2008 10:31 AM PDT up 0 recs

I wish we had lost that lottery this year

Go Nova

by dbroncos31 on Jul 30, 2008 10:23 AM PDT up 0 recs

I like the different leagues.

I think they should bring back the separate league offices and Presidents (I want all umpires replaced by machines)

The DH sucks, but eliminating it would require the approval of the union, and they won’t agree because that would turn 16 roster spots from starters into bench players, and thats a significant loss of revenue for the players.

I’d suggest adding two teams to the NL and making it into a 4 division league.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Jul 30, 2008 11:49 AM PDT up 0 recs

Wow, that made no sense at all.

Don’t bother adding two teams.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Jul 30, 2008 11:53 AM PDT up 0 recs

14 would be bench players, not 16.

And where would the NL expand to?

We don't negotiate with terrorists.

by Mariner John on Jul 30, 2008 1:21 PM PDT up 0 recs

True this is inherently unfair.

But how about this? The M’s win 93 games 2x in a row and fail to make the playoffs. Whilst the Cards win something like 82 games and win their division, less than the Phillies who subsequently didn’t make the playoffs.
Sure you have something to complain about, but at least you’re not in the an Eastern Division, where teams in NY, Boston, and Philly seem to have too much to spend. The AL West has an argument since the M’s seems to have a limitless supply of money (Who else would give Carlos Silva $48 million except someone who has no concept of the value of a dollar?), LAA and their limitless supply of money, and Billy Beane and his genius.

by LantermanC on Jul 30, 2008 9:58 AM PDT 0 recs

The Mariners won more games than the WC Marlins.

And I think your missing the point, it’s inherently unfair to have a 1/6 chance as opposed to a 1/4.

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 30, 2008 10:11 AM PDT up 0 recs

It's far more unfair for a team like the Rays

to be stuck in a division with New York, Boston, Baltimore and Toronto.

It’s unfair that despite a media market and population that dwarfs most other cities by huge factors, only 2 teams play in NYC.

Personally, I think a mix of pdb and Eyebrows is what I’d like. I like quirks in baseball and I don’t want to see them get rid of the leagues, but a re-alignment would be helpful. Add 2 more teams, one in Brooklyn, one out west and split each league into 2 divisions, 8 teams each, two floating wild cards.

by Matthew on Jul 30, 2008 10:20 AM PDT up 1 recs

Los Angeles has two teams

and Orange County doesn’t have any. Seems like a perfect fit.

The Jose Lopez Watch - 129H - 16 BB - 56 G Left

by seattlebruin on Jul 30, 2008 10:23 AM PDT up 0 recs

by Llewdor on Jul 30, 2008 3:02 PM PDT up 0 recs

Cincinnati should just elect to use the DH

And have the pitcher play third. Since no where in the rulebook does it say that the home team can’t make up their own rules.

...and now I'm here

by Librocrat on Jul 30, 2008 11:43 AM PDT 0 recs

And in the unlikely event this takes place, if any team should be booted out of the NL, shouldn’t it be one which – oh, I dunno – is on pace for its eighth straight losing season, rather than the one which has three division titles and a World Series in the past decade?

One Vision, One Purpose
Peace Through Power

by Goose on Jul 30, 2008 1:25 PM PDT 0 recs