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Rumour Mill 7/29: Mark Teixeira------> Angels

Olney:

The Mets have continued discussions with the Mariners about outfielder Raul Ibanez, but as of early Tuesday afternoon, nothing seemed particularly promising.

If the conversations with the Mariners heat up, they could conceivably expand the conversation to include Arthur Rhodes, the veteran lefty.

Rosenthal:

Almost immediately after the Braves decided to trade Mark Teixeira on Monday, the Diamondbacks emerged as the apparent front-runner to land the switch-hitting first baseman.

The Angels, however, also are in the mix.

The Diamondbacks, sources say, will not part with first baseman Conor Jackson for Teixeira, who is a free agent at the end of the season. But they would be open to moving Chad Tracy, who is signed for $4.75 million next season with a $7 million option for 2010.

Also, per ESPN, fuck my life:

 

The St. Louis Cardinals have decided it is time to return the closer's role to Jason Isringhausen, who has been languishing as a middle reliever after an early-season slump and a trip to the disabled list.

 

"In my head, I knew Izzy's the closer and I'm just here to fill in until he got ready, which I think he is," Franklin said.

Update: Rosenthal:

The Angels have won the Mark Teixeira sweepstakes. 

First baseman Casey Kotchman and Class AA right-hander Stephen Marek are headed to Atlanta in exchange for the power-hitting first baseman.


Link

 

This trade couldn't happen at a better time. Atlanta must be out of players.

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They should trade him for Washburn instead

shiny shiny ERA!

The Jose Lopez Watch - 124H - 14 BB - 58 G Left

by seattlebruin on Jul 29, 2008 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

It is over the last two months

The Jose Lopez Watch - 124H - 14 BB - 58 G Left

by seattlebruin on Jul 29, 2008 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think we're that stupid.

We are the ones who let him walk and sign with you.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wouldn't he have accepted though?

The Jose Lopez Watch - 124H - 14 BB - 58 G Left

by seattlebruin on Jul 29, 2008 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think he would have.

I can remember him offering to play for a huge hometown discount for them, and they basically said, “Not interested.”

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

from some archived version of wikipedia

Washburn became a free agent after the 2005 season. As an eight-year Major League veteran who had just completed a very good season, he was clearly in-line for a lucrative multi-year contract. The Angels, however, were not interested in making such an expensive commitment to Washburn. The team felt it could get comparable performance to Washburn’s, either from young pitchers in its organization who would be far cheaper, or from a free agent they could sign to a short-term contract. As a result, Washburn’s departure was widely expected as the 2005 season drew to a close.

Washburn repeatedly expressed a desire to remain with the Angels. However, knowing that they would not be interested in matching the long-term offers Washburn would certainly draw from other teams, the Angels declined to attempt any contract negotiations with Washburn’s agent. In fact, the team never even inqured as to what specific contract terms Washburn would request of them.

Washburn ultimately signed with the Mariners on December 19, 2005, for four years at $38 million (USD).

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

err left this part out

Washburn has expressed disappointment that the Angels made no attempt whatsoever to keep him, suggesting he might have been willing to take a shorter contract and/or less money to stay with the team. Team officials, however, have pointed to the contract that Washburn received from the Mariners (and an offer at similar terms that he received from the Washington Nationals) and said that what the Angels would have been willing to offer Washburn was so much less that there was no realistic chance of reaching an agreement, and thus any negotiations would have been a waste of both sides’ time.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who's Michael Olney?

Buster’s son?

Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?

by The Alaskan on Jul 29, 2008 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know

I found some google cached version of the page, not the current one.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bastards

it has changed back. I was so hopeful for a few minutes

The Jose Lopez Watch - 124H - 14 BB - 58 G Left

by seattlebruin on Jul 29, 2008 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's not like Wikipedia is a sacred text or anything.

any time there’s “open source” anything, people will mess with it; this is the exact reason I can’t take Wikipedia 100% seriously as a reference.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Jul 29, 2008 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

But it's on the internet!

it must be true!

The Jose Lopez Watch - 124H - 14 BB - 58 G Left

by seattlebruin on Jul 29, 2008 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

You forgot to include his intangibles.

Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?

by The Alaskan on Jul 29, 2008 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think he did help keep the latin players focused.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Jul 29, 2008 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

SOMEbody in our clubhouse needs fire.

He brought that. Sure he’s probably a dick, but…I’m sick of whiners like Ibanez and Wash.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Jul 29, 2008 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm a little scared of the answer.

Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?

by The Alaskan on Jul 29, 2008 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

About what? Him being a dick or me being sick of Wash, cos I am.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Jul 29, 2008 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Or you don't think he brings a winning attitude?

I don’t mind players calling each other out IF players are slacking. However, I wasn’t enthused with him hasseling Jones when he was called up. You gotta give the kids an atmosphere where they can feel comfortable if you expect them to produce.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Jul 29, 2008 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Easy...

Lets put it this way. Guillen talking smack didn’t HELP Jones in ANY way.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Jul 29, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Mariners FO needs to seriously consider getting rid of Washburn. No surprise here.

But, if Mariners want prospect in return, I think there is another alternative.

With Jorge Posada out for the rest of the season, this is the time to unload both Washburn AND Johjima. If the Yankees do not want to give up a prospect, then make them take Johjima with Washburn.

Not inconceivable, but sure as hell would be funny.

by Wilder. on Jul 29, 2008 1:52 PM PDT reply actions  

I like this. For Melky ONLY would be enough for me.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Jul 29, 2008 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

HA!

Is it spicy mustard? Cos it better bring some FIRE.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Jul 29, 2008 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

*Limps back in*

sorry.

AMAZING what 10 minute ban will do for a guy.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Jul 29, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Never going to happen.

Hilarious to think about, though.

by BrianL on Jul 29, 2008 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed, only the M's are dumb enough to make that trade.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Jul 29, 2008 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

You know

That probably would’ve been possible without that extension of Joh’s.

by ThundaPC on Jul 29, 2008 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

So apparently Baseball reference writes or at least links articles

about baseball now.
I found this one to be hilarious.
http://www.dugoutcentral.com/blog/?p=1697

The Mariners/Yankees initial conversations going back three or four weeks didn’t actually involve Jarrod Washburn, but Kenji Johjima. With Jeff Clement being hurt now, he’s likely off the market, but if the Yankees could sweeten the pot, say, Kennedy, Cabrera, (who is the rumored piece for Washburn) and a prospect for Washburn and Johjima, that’s a trade I’d do in a heartbeat.

In a heartbeat? I think anyone would do that in a hearbeat… Shoot I’d do Washburn and Kenji for nothing.

by LantermanC on Jul 29, 2008 2:47 PM PDT reply actions  

So apparently Baseball reference writes or at least links articles

about baseball now.
I found this one to be hilarious.
http://www.dugoutcentral.com/blog/?p=1697

The Mariners/Yankees initial conversations going back three or four weeks didn’t actually involve Jarrod Washburn, but Kenji Johjima. With Jeff Clement being hurt now, he’s likely off the market, but if the Yankees could sweeten the pot, say, Kennedy, Cabrera, (who is the rumored piece for Washburn) and a prospect for Washburn and Johjima, that’s a trade I’d do in a heartbeat.

In a heartbeat? I think anyone woudl do that in a hearbeat… Shoot I’d do Washburn and Kenji for nothing.

by LantermanC on Jul 29, 2008 2:47 PM PDT reply actions  

Teixera to Braves for Kotchman official

against Vegas reliever Casey Hoorelbeke, whose ancestors clearly couldn't spell Hurlbeck properly.

by Christian on Jul 29, 2008 2:57 PM PDT reply actions  

err to Angels I mean.

against Vegas reliever Casey Hoorelbeke, whose ancestors clearly couldn't spell Hurlbeck properly.

by Christian on Jul 29, 2008 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wow, this deserves its own fanpost.

Angels are dumb. I don’t even know the terms, but I think they’re dumb.

by LantermanC on Jul 29, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is this Stephen Marek any good?

The Jose Lopez Watch - 126H - 16 BB - 57 G Left

by seattlebruin on Jul 29, 2008 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not like the Angels are hurting for cheap bullpen arms

So I don’t care about this guy.

Arredondo has been awesome this year.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

What does your future bullpen look like w/o Rodriguez?

I had a discussion with a my roommate (an Angels fan) over whether or not they should re-sign him. I said no, that bullpen arms are easy to find – he said yes, that he’d rather see Arredondo setting up rather than closing and where will the other arms come from.

The Jose Lopez Watch - 126H - 16 BB - 57 G Left

by seattlebruin on Jul 29, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Frankie scares me.

Always has. He is regressing, his arm has GOT to explode someday. He allows too many baserunners. It’s not a save for Frankie with some combination of a double, a walk, and/or a solo home-run. I don’t know what the pen looks like long-term, but I see Shields probably closing next year with Arrendondo taking the 8th, then eventually into the closer role.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

What's puzzling about it from Atlanta's POV?

Though I wonder how good Kotchman actually is, he’s productive and cheap.

by Matthew on Jul 29, 2008 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

eh. I don't think that's too much of an issue here.

Kotchman’s probably worth more than the two picks on his own.

by Matthew on Jul 29, 2008 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

He's not.

Dave can chime in with the defensive numbers, but I think Kotch is somewhere around a +2 win player all told.

by Matthew on Jul 29, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well look at it.

His bat is somewhere between 0.5-1.5 wins above average
His position is -1 win
His defense is reputed to be good, so cancel the position adjustment.

You’re left with a guy who’s roughly a win above average, which like 2.5 wins above replacement IIRC.

by Matthew on Jul 29, 2008 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kotchman is cheap and effective

Cheap opens up payroll to bolster other positions, and effective means not worrying about a big dropoff in production or defense.

by Gomez on Jul 29, 2008 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

True

But you have a guy cheap through 2011 for 3 months of Tex.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah I get that

Which is the only reason I’m not really pissed off right now.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think the Angels win this big time

I’m a bit surprised that’s all.

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 29, 2008 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Honestly

I wouldnt mind that, since it’s not MY money. $Texas for good players doesn’t bother me. I don’t really care that they overpaid for Torii. Though Sarge Jr. does piss me off.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Though the Angels now are kinda screwed on 1B after this year

Kendry Morales? Dear lord I hope he can get it together.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bryan LaHair is available

The Jose Lopez Watch - 126H - 16 BB - 57 G Left

by seattlebruin on Jul 29, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

The main thing I'm worried about

Is that Kotchman is still below his peak, and is going to crank out a few 25-30HR seasons in a Braves uni for cheap.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Defense matters too

though IIRC, Tex is a pretty good 1B

The Jose Lopez Watch - 126H - 16 BB - 57 G Left

by seattlebruin on Jul 29, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Gold Glove!

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 29, 2008 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yep

I think Kotchman’s a very good player, and someone who will get better through 2011, though it’s worth pointing out that he’s been fairly injury prone (or just disease-ridden?).

I understand this from both team’s POV, and honestly, I think Marek might add some value to the Braves, especially if they trade Mahay. Still, if you’re the Angels and you’re making a push for the WS this year, yeah, it makes sense.

by marc w on Jul 29, 2008 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Regarding Wash ------> Yanks

I think it’s a lot like Hargrove —-—> not Mariners in ‘06.

We don't negotiate with terrorists.

by Mariner John on Jul 29, 2008 3:17 PM PDT reply actions  

Yes.

Jeff, you still owe all of us money for that

by Graham MacAree on Jul 29, 2008 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Appears Reagins is a lot more willing to pull the trigger on stuff like this.

It would be really great if we could sign Texiera, and we know the Halos have the money. I dunno. We’ll have to see how this works out.

*Visiting Angels fan* Never give up, never surrender!

by TheOptimist on Jul 29, 2008 3:23 PM PDT reply actions  

What's with all the worries, Eyebrows ?

I’m not sure I follow you. The Angels FO is basically saying; Let’s make 2008 our year. We understand we got the division (no offense, A’s, M’s and Ranger fans), but let’s NOT get beat in the first round ALDS this post season.

I am stoked – and I love Kotchman! But Teixeira is awesome in his own way. More awesome than Kotch.

I’m not concerned about the big contracts for GMJ, Hunter and possibly Teixeira – as a matter of fact I hope he resigns with the Angels.

A lot of baseball fans are going to be ticked off right now, as the best team in baseball just got even better. They FINALLY added the power bat they’ve been talking about for years now. Much like the earthquake today, we were long overdue for this.

Hey you! What are horse mackerel!
Hey, the chair are sailing! You believe that I am toad of the month!
(Yes, that is K-Rod's entry music, translated)

by infant on Jul 29, 2008 3:29 PM PDT reply actions  

I think Texeira is great

I just don’t think he’s enough of an upgrade over August-October 2008 Kotchman to give up August2008-2011 Kotchman.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think he is

And I really hope he provides us with the extra punch that’ll make us awesome in October. We need that.

Let me put it in another way: nobody else available would’ve made sense to the Angels. Teixeira does make sense, and I look very much forward to see our team in October now. We seriously upgraded our offense. As much as Kotchman has been great this year, Teixeira is much more certain to be great down the line.

Hey you! What are horse mackerel!
Hey, the chair are sailing! You believe that I am toad of the month!
(Yes, that is K-Rod's entry music, translated)

by infant on Jul 29, 2008 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would have much rather had Beltre

I know it wasn’t rumored, but 1B wasn’t a major weak spot for the Angels. 3B still kinda is.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Tex's WARP so far this year: 5.1

Kotchman: 2.5

If that kept constant, Tex is worth +2 wins for the rest of the year. Since the Angels pretty much have the division locked up, then we’re only really getting Teixeira for the postseason. I am open to any arguments about how he is worth that much more in the postseason over Kotchman that you’d give up 3 cheap years of Kotchman.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe I look at it much simpler than you do.

I just see it as this:

With Kotch, I felt good about our chances in the postseason this year, especially with our success against Boston this year.

With Teixeira, I feel much BETTER about our chances in the postseason this year.

That, is all that counts to me. Nobody can deny he makes our club better. A better club, means a better chance in the postseason, providing you get there.

Love Kotch, but Teixeira is more than welcome :-)

Hey you! What are horse mackerel!
Hey, the chair are sailing! You believe that I am toad of the month!
(Yes, that is K-Rod's entry music, translated)

by infant on Jul 29, 2008 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Damn, why haven't they quantified feel yet?

Graham, you bloody slacker. Get on that. And we need a formula for love as well.

by Matthew on Jul 29, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

He needs a way to fill his days.

I would do cartwheels over my name written in sand

by Kirsten Schlewitz on Jul 30, 2008 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Feelings are wonderful

But not a good reason to trade someone.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

As you very well know, none of that is true

But bottomline is that most people will agree that the Angels’ chances to succeed in the postseason WITH Teix > Angels’ chances WITHOUT Teix.

Hey you! What are horse mackerel!
Hey, the chair are sailing! You believe that I am toad of the month!
(Yes, that is K-Rod's entry music, translated)

by infant on Jul 29, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

True.

But you’re not taking cost into account.

First Class > Coach. But if you got coach for $100, and First Class for $2000, would it be WORTH it?

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

If it means I get to my destination (World Series) when flying first class this year, then YES!

Hey you! What are horse mackerel!
Hey, the chair are sailing! You believe that I am toad of the month!
(Yes, that is K-Rod's entry music, translated)

by infant on Jul 29, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

No - you're both right, it doesn't guarantee it

I don’t care though.

The team just got better and that’s all that matters.

Hey you! What are horse mackerel!
Hey, the chair are sailing! You believe that I am toad of the month!
(Yes, that is K-Rod's entry music, translated)

by infant on Jul 29, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

No.

COST matters too.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't worry about the Angels financials

And neither should you. The Angels will most likely try to resign Teixeira, and who knows, that might work out. If that costs Arte money, why would I care ?

It’s in Arte’s best interest to be competitive now AND for years to come. So far he has not given me a reason to doubt him. Look at where we are right now.

I don’t worry about other peoples money. They don’t worry about mine.

Hey you! What are horse mackerel!
Hey, the chair are sailing! You believe that I am toad of the month!
(Yes, that is K-Rod's entry music, translated)

by infant on Jul 29, 2008 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's dumb.

Cost is a huge part of the equation.

by Matthew on Jul 29, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not true

Arte is a smart business man and has been against rentals in the past. So I am sure he has a plan, and if not, he doesn’t care this costs him extra the next few years.

If it’s not my money, I don’t worry about it.

Hey you! What are horse mackerel!
Hey, the chair are sailing! You believe that I am toad of the month!
(Yes, that is K-Rod's entry music, translated)

by infant on Jul 29, 2008 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

You're entitled to your opinion

As I’m entitled to mine.

I have more faith in our team right now, than I had in our team 2 hours ago. If you don’t think that’s right, correct, or think I shouldn’t – that’s fine. The bottomline, and I’ve said that many times already, is that I think our team just got even better than it was.

Hey you! What are horse mackerel!
Hey, the chair are sailing! You believe that I am toad of the month!
(Yes, that is K-Rod's entry music, translated)

by infant on Jul 29, 2008 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, all true.

More faith – short term.

Less faith – long term.

Or hey, let’s stop talking faith/feelings and actually talk about real things like money and wins and talent.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's not just MONEY

cost also means PLAYERS. In this case, Kotchman.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't worry too much about it.

But tying up a lot of payroll into a few players is risky. And it leaves less liquidity to seek out other complements to the team. You don’t want a team of Stars and Scrubs.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, but the improvement is not very big across a playoff timescale

Also,. since 2001, the best team in baseball has won the world series exactly once.

by Graham MacAree on Jul 29, 2008 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Red Sox, last year?

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 29, 2008 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yep.

And even then they were tied with Cleveland

by Graham MacAree on Jul 29, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

What metric are you using for best? W/L record

or something more advanced? BP 3rd order wins?

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Since the new format

you have 1999, 2004 and 2007 as the only two years where the best two teams actually met.

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 29, 2008 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

maybe 1995 too

Point is, it’s rare.

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 29, 2008 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

If you wanted to argue that the Talent vs. Chances of Winning in the Postseason function

is nonlinear, that would be fine. Is this really going to guarantee the Angels the WS? Is this the final 5% they needed? I just don’t think you can quantify and say something like that, really.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

You cannot quantify

All I’m saying is: our team WITH Teixeira is better, in the present, than it was with Kotchman.

You can try to quantify anything and everything you want, but the simple thing here is that for now, Teix is an upgrade over Kotch at 1B.

Hey you! What are horse mackerel!
Hey, the chair are sailing! You believe that I am toad of the month!
(Yes, that is K-Rod's entry music, translated)

by infant on Jul 29, 2008 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

We agree on that.

But I still maintain it was not worth the marginal improvement.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's your opinion and that is fine

I just don’t want to over complicate things.

I’m all for trying to quantify things and running numbers to see what makes the most sense. But you know what ? The Angels front office is making a clear statement in that they want it all this year, and they’ll do anything (except sign Bonds :-)) to get there. This is part of it. If they want a ring this year, signing Teix absolutely makes sense as regardless of anything, he is a better hitter than Kotchman is.

Hey you! What are horse mackerel!
Hey, the chair are sailing! You believe that I am toad of the month!
(Yes, that is K-Rod's entry music, translated)

by infant on Jul 29, 2008 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

wrong wrong wrong

This is tiring. Graham, you’re better at dealing with this than I am.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why? Why deal with it?

No one’s going to convince anyone here.

by marc w on Jul 29, 2008 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

We should trade away Adenhart and Wood and Conger and Kendrick and everyone else

For Dan Uggla and a bullpen arm. That will make us better this year too! I guess that means it’s a good idea!

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Don't agree

But, again, you’re entitled your opinion and I’m entitled to mine. I’m not saying you, or anyone else, have to agree with it.

Hey you! What are horse mackerel!
Hey, the chair are sailing! You believe that I am toad of the month!
(Yes, that is K-Rod's entry music, translated)

by infant on Jul 29, 2008 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm going to buy a bigger house than the one I currently live in

Granted, it’s going to drive me into more debt than I can handle, but dammit, my goal is a big house and I feel that the upgrade to my current house (which is admittedly of adequate size) is worth the sacrifice.

Bottom line is, the new house is big and nothing else matters.

by Graham MacAree on Jul 29, 2008 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

eh, I think it's more like

I want a raise.
Granted, my salary is fine, and I’ve got a great, stable job, but I’d really like a chance to make $5,000 more per year.
Ergo, I’m going to quit my job, go back to school and (hopefully) learn something entirely new. At a cost of $180,000. But $5,000 more a year! Maybe!

by marc w on Jul 29, 2008 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's your situation - and in your case, yes, a bigger house might put you in more debt

However, who says that’s the case for the Angels ?

We don’t know anything about the Angels specific situation in the future. We don’t know Arte’s budget for the Angels, we don’t know his plans.

As long as we don’t know any of that, we can guess, we can agree with his decisions or disagree with them. However, in the end, only he and his team now the bigger plan.

Hey you! What are horse mackerel!
Hey, the chair are sailing! You believe that I am toad of the month!
(Yes, that is K-Rod's entry music, translated)

by infant on Jul 29, 2008 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

You can't tell the future! Nothing is certain!

Therefore you can’t say something is bad!

Great logic.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

but the simple thing here is that for now, Teix is an upgrade over Kotch at 1B.

Yes true, but we strive more more than” the simple thing.”

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 29, 2008 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sometimes, simple things can be good

Hey you! What are horse mackerel!
Hey, the chair are sailing! You believe that I am toad of the month!
(Yes, that is K-Rod's entry music, translated)

by infant on Jul 29, 2008 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

This trade couldn't have happened at a better time for me

No Hudson, no McCann, no Chipper, no Tex

Go to town!

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 29, 2008 4:02 PM PDT reply actions  

Traitor

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 29, 2008 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

McGwire hit 9 more.

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 29, 2008 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Legal!

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 29, 2008 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Aye

But is the difference of Mac with legal performance enhancing substances and Mac without them more than nine home runs? No one can say for sure either way…

by Frosty Raptor on Jul 29, 2008 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's true

But McGwire, Bonds, Sosa and Brady Anderson also board the same canoe.

by Frosty Raptor on Jul 29, 2008 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let's see

By wOBA, Teixeira seems to be about 15-25 runs better than Kotchman at the plate over a full season.

By an assortment of defensive metrics, Kotchman is about 5-10 runs better than Teixeira in the field (being conservative).

Interesting gamble, but I don’t think I would’ve done it.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 29, 2008 4:15 PM PDT reply actions  

Here's what it comes down to

Before the trade, the Angels had a roughly 1/8 chance of winning the WS.

After the trade, the Angels had a roughly 1/8 chance of winning the WS, and a big hole at 1st for the offseason.

Hmmm.

by Graham MacAree on Jul 29, 2008 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not really that big a hole. We have Kendry Morales, who has been blocked by Kotch for essentially his whole career.

Same age, Kendry is also pretty handy with a glove at first, and Morales put up an .812 OPS in 125 PAs last season. I know small sample size, 2006 he sucked, he hasn’t put up wiz-bang numbers at SLC etc. Still though, based on his scout projections the chances that he could step in and keep doing what Kotch was doing this year at first seem pretty good.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Jul 29, 2008 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think you're really undervaluing Kotchman there

While it’s true that Morales could theoretically replace him from what I’ve seen the likelihood of that working out for you guys is pretty small.

by Graham MacAree on Jul 29, 2008 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I dunno. I've watched both of them a lot and I think it's better than even that Morales could at least come close to Kotch at first base.

But my point is it alters the way you look at the deal. Kotch enters arbitration this year. For the cost of a minor-league reliever who’d have been hard pressed to make the major-league club any time soon, you upgrade your offense for the remainder of the season. At the end of the season, you wave good-bye to Teix whom someone overpays for, and get back close to the same production you had before, entering its prime, at the league minimum for another 3 years.

Looking at it this way, I think changes the evaluation from “kinda pointless/stupid” to “gutsy.” It’s still a definitely a gamble and it could backfire, I admit, but I think it’s at least a decent from a long-term plan perspective

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Jul 29, 2008 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Obviously this is a good deal if you project Morales to be ~Kotchman for the next few years

I don’t think there are good odds of that coming off, but obviously you do. I don’t think that this is going to go anywhere apart from my conceding that yes, under your set of assumptions the deal is a good one.

by Graham MacAree on Jul 29, 2008 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed. It really depends on your assessment of Morales and Kotchman.

My point isn’t so much to convince you as to illuminate what our FO is probably thinking.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Jul 29, 2008 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

If his glove is that good he's not so expendable.

That’s sort of like a SS playing over there.

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 29, 2008 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

The more I think about this trade

the more pissed off I become. Tex adds no real value until the postseason, and then the # of at bats is so small, the value is almost NEGLIGIBLE. AAArgh.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think it's a *horrible* trade.

At least you got Mark Teixeira.

It’s just awful short-sighted.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 29, 2008 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is the trade version

of buying $200 Monster cables.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nice analogy!

However, do the Angels now get two picks if Tex re-signs with someone else? That would at least help the case for the trade…

by manyoso on Jul 29, 2008 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes

They have added a fraction of a win down the stretch in 2008, and some help in the playoffs, in exchange for the difference between Kotchman/dude and two compensation picks.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jul 29, 2008 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think most would agree that Kotchman, as a known quantity

is greater than a late first round pick and and a supplemental pick, seeing as a lot of prospects don’t make it.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 29, 2008 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Helps their Moral%

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 29, 2008 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

There's always the two first round draft picks.

If Franky leaves, that gives us 4 in the first round besides our own. 5 first round picks is nothing to sneer at.

*Visiting Angels fan* Never give up, never surrender!

by TheOptimist on Jul 29, 2008 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

I still don't think the trade is that great for either side

but maybe Texieira helps them hit tougher pitching when they play good teams.

Seems unnecessary.

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 29, 2008 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know Teixiera is pretty awesome but...

is there any concern that he’s moving from the National League to the American League? His numbers will have to be at least somewhat lower than he has been so far with Atlanta.

by Scrupio on Jul 29, 2008 6:03 PM PDT reply actions  

This is just sadly hilarious...via Rosenthal....

“Two teams that inquired about Mariners reliever J.J. Putz were told that he would not be traded. But others say that Putz indeed is available, along with every player on the M’s roster except for right fielder Ichiro Suzuki, right-hander Felix Hernandez, catcher Kenji Johjima and reliever Brandon Morrow.”

by SethGrandpa on Jul 29, 2008 7:28 PM PDT reply actions  

Damn you Yamauchi.

We don't negotiate with terrorists.

by Mariner John on Jul 29, 2008 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I kinda figured somebody would beat the DBacks offer of Tracy+Parra+ throw in.

I almost wanted Tex more for the 2 draft picks at the end of the year, then I did for the actual production. The Dbacks are very quietly stocking draft picks for the next draft. O-Dawg will net them 2 picks. Brandon Lyon, with his saves inflated value, could possibly net them 2 picks. Juan Cruz, who was a Type A last year and could be again this year, could net them 2 more. And Tex would of gotten them 2 as well. They’re restocking pretty quick.

Oh well. Keeping Tracy gives them more flexibility for next year. Maybe they can keep Jackson in left and DFA Eric Byrnes(DO IT JOSH! DO IT NOW!).

And I see the Angels got their big bat that they desperately needed to get them into the playoffs. Bwahaha.

One Vision, One Purpose
Peace Through Power

by Goose on Jul 29, 2008 8:44 PM PDT reply actions  

After having the awesomeness of Kotchman's defense explained to me

I gotta say this trade is bad for the Angels, and a wee bit underwhelming for the Braves.

I don’t get it.

Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP

by JI on Jul 29, 2008 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

How is Juan Cruz a Type A?

That whole system is retarded.

We don't negotiate with terrorists.

by Mariner John on Jul 29, 2008 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I have no idea.

Looking over the same list again last year, I notice that Lyon was a Type B, so who knows.

One Vision, One Purpose
Peace Through Power

by Goose on Jul 29, 2008 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Basic Rule of Thumb

Never give up a big part of your future to replace a good player. It never works. The very best players in the game are +5 or +6 wins in a season (I’m talking Pujols/Utley/Sizemore), and you can’t trade for those guys. The best players available in trade at any given point are more like +4 win players, and if you’ve already got a +2 win guy, you’re making an incremental upgrade, not a real significant addition.

The M’s did this with the Jones/Bedard deal, giving up a +2 win OF for a +4 win pitcher. Now the Angels have done it, giving up a +2 win first baseman for a +4 win first baseman. The Angels deal obviously isn’t anywhere near as bad, since its 3 years of Kotchman instead of 6 years of Jones (including all the free ones), plus the M’s gave up four other players, and they weren’t legitimate contenders, but the basic idea behind the two moves is actually kind of similar.

Would you give up a big part of your future to go from replacement level to average? Or, to use an Angels-centric example, would you have given up a real prospect to get Randy Winn? Because that would have had about the same effect on their chances as this did.

by davidcameron on Jul 29, 2008 10:18 PM PDT reply actions   3 recs

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