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Alternate title: Baseball Players Should Stick To Playing

Results from a recent survey of 473 players that asked them questions ranging from "Who's the best?" to "Who's the dirtiest?":

Best defensive infielder, A.L.

1. Orlando Cabrera, White Sox, 16 votes
2. Yuniesky Betancourt, Mariners, 16 votes
3. John McDonald, Blue Jays, 10 votes
4. Placido Polanco, Tigers, 8 votes
5. Adrian Beltre, Mariners, 6 votes

I'm not going to quibble with four of these, because while you could probably come up with a list of better defenders, they're still pretty good, so whatever. No, I really only take issue with one of them. And you can probably guess which.

While he came up and made some dazzling plays in 2005, these days there exists not a single shred of evidence that Yuni's any better than an average defensive shortstop, and there exists a substantial amount of evidence that he's quite a bit worse than that. Like, even by as many as 10-20 runs. That goes beyond below-average and verges on awful. Which would've been hard to imagine a few years ago ("What? That's crazy! You're crazy!"), but when you hear about it now, your reaction is more along the lines of saying "okay, yeah, that makes sense" with a shrug. We've just seen too many fieldable balls get through to the grass to really put our hearts into refuting such a claim.

But baseball's a funny sport. A sport where people love to form opinions and hate to ever change them. A sport where first impressions mean everything and reputations carry more weight than they ever did in high school. A sport where, once you're given a label, you have to do something extraordinary to lose it.

Yuniesky Betancourt's reputation as an outstanding defensive shortstop first took shape in 2005, and it persists to this day despite a small mountain of evidence to the contrary. It clearly persists among players, and I guarantee you that it persists among a bunch of front offices. Not all of them, of course - some teams are smarter than others - but in an age in which the defensive analysis of individual players still carries an air of uncertainty, there are a lot of important people feeding off of subjective and often misleading information. Information like "hey that Cuban kid can really pick it up and throw it."

We know better, but a lot of teams don't (update: sadly, the Mariners are probably one of them). A lot of teams see a young shortstop with a cheap long-term contract that can hit for average and make the play behind second. Or, to put it another way, a lot of teams see a guy with a decent amount of value, where in reality Yuni's turned into one of our more pressing concerns.

We really ought to use this to our advantage. I suppose we could sit around and hope that Yuni rediscovers the magic that made him so exciting four years ago, but players don't really ever do that, so it seems to me that the solution is to deal him before his reputation finally catches up to the kind of player he actually is. We already know there are teams out there looking for a shortstop. Here's one with a lot to offer. I feel like the Mariners should be obligated to at least give them a call and find out what's up.

As a general manager, there is no more favorable situation than knowing that other organizations place too high a value on one of your players. Yuni is one such player, and dealing him away for some talent in return would give this team a lot more flexibility going forward while removing one of its heaviest anchors. As far as I'm concerned, this shouldn't even be a question. Yuni, you used to be a treat to watch, but then you discovered sandwiches, and were I in charge I'd be doing whatever I can to unload you for something shiny before people find out the truth. This team is just harder to make good with you than without you.

0 recs  |  Comment 136 comments

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They are good sandwiches though.

Ditching Yuni would be a boon to helping this team for 2009. As people saw in our part 2 post, there’s just not a lot of flexibility, space wise on the roster.

by Matthew on Jul 11, 2008 10:04 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Tug Hulett/ Willie for SS?

And then who do we get next year?

by LantermanC on Jul 11, 2008 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Everett

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like Ronny

But he strikes me as a marginal SS/2B defensively.

Even so, he seems like the exact kind of guy you’d want to take a flier on for half a season that isn’t going anywhere, anyway. At worst, he’s a solid backup next year.

He’s under club control for a couple more years, right? If he could be pried away from the Cubs for something reasonable, it’d be a nice move. But even though he’s basically blocked from an everyday job in Chicago, my hunch is that they still like having him around and available.

by busplunger on Jul 11, 2008 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Forgot the Fontenot Factor

I realized that I forgot about the Cubs’ love of Mike Fontenot. Maybe they really would scrap Cedeno for a bullpen arm to bolster the pennant run.

by busplunger on Jul 11, 2008 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's a real SS

The scouts I talk to really like his defense, and the defensive metrics we have think he’s at least average at short. He’s probably only a .270/.310/.380 hitter, but combined with average defense at short, that makes him a +1 to +1.5 win player.

by davidcameron on Jul 11, 2008 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the info

I’d checked out Tango’s defense survey and it had him around average overall, but there weren’t enough votes to say anything. Don’t have any other fielding stats handy but I might dig around later. Better yet, I’ll take your word for it.

His last couple trips through the PCL have demonstrated that he doesn’t need any more AAA at-bats (inflated PCL numbers duly considered). The Cub fan I talked to said he thinks the consensus is that Ronny still has some upside, but that he probably isn’t critical to anything the Cubs need to do this year or next year.

by busplunger on Jul 11, 2008 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In Chicago,

Cedeno is seen by many fans as the second coming of Ozzie Smith. Anytime anyone defends Ryan Theriot, Cedeno’s name is brought up as an infinitely better defender, and Lou Pinella is harangued for having the gal to play Theriot ahead of Cedeno.

Where is Mick Kelleher when we need him?

by 3744nsheffield on Jul 11, 2008 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was actually thinking Furcal would be a great 1-year pickup.

If there ever is a player to pick up in the shadow of Jose Guillen, it’s Furcal. He is coming off a major surgery that may keep teams from wanting to sign a long-term contract. Guillen was the same way, except Furcal doesn’t carry past clubhouse antics.

We used Jose Guillen and he used us. Let’s trade Yuni for Loney to fill our 1st base need and then use Furcal while letting him use us.

In a perfect world…

by Wilder. on Jul 11, 2008 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know how many times I have to say it

out of Loney, Kemp and Ethier Loney is the least likely to be dealt.

The poster formerly known as Matt.

by bluemax on Jul 11, 2008 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don' know...

The Dodgers are showing interest in Sexson. Which I find hilarious.

by LantermanC on Jul 11, 2008 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not true.

The Dodgers have plenty of options to fill in at 1B if Loney were to be traded.

But considering their OF logjam, Loney probably isn’t their first option.

by Wilder. on Jul 11, 2008 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps

but they REALLY like Loney and they don’t seem to hold Kemp or Ethier to as high of regards. I didn’t say they wouldn’t deal him, I just think out of the three he’s the least likely to be dealt.

Ethier is the one most likely to go, the unfortunate Juan Pierre and Andruw Jones contracts make him the most expendable.

The poster formerly known as Matt.

by bluemax on Jul 11, 2008 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sadly the Mariners probably think his defense kicks ass.

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 10:13 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm fine with the Mariners being deluded

IF it makes their asking price a bit higher to the Dodgers.

“We are giving you a premium defensive SS who can hit anything, PLUS a grizzled lefty veteran with Championship experience. The least you could give us in return is a that powerless left 1B of yours, Loney.”

by LantermanC on Jul 11, 2008 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why would you trade a kick ass shortstop?

The Mariners don’t trade their good players ever.

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me phrase it better

The Mariners considered Adam Jones to be one of their expendable players.

by BrianL on Jul 11, 2008 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually Bavasi said that he knew very well how valuable Jones is

but thought that Bedard would be more valuable in the short term.

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 11, 2008 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What they say...

...and how they behave are two different things.

I don’t think this organization knows how to value players correctly.

by rtang on Jul 11, 2008 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bavasi loves his young players;

this is well documented. Maybe what you say is true to an extent, but however poorly the organization is run, and however much you may disagree with their roster-building, it’s just plain wrong to say that they did not value Jones.

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 11, 2008 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They valued him, yes.

But they didn’t value him enough to keep him off the expendable list.

by BrianL on Jul 11, 2008 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

should be amended to veterans

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just being snarky..

...but it points to a long term problem with the Mariners not recognizing the talent they have and placing the wrong value on the talent they have.

by rtang on Jul 11, 2008 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They wanted out.

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Freddy Garcia?

I don’t know the circumstances leading to that trade.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 11, 2008 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They hated him.

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Same situation, different player.

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me just amend this to say

the Mariners would never trade a productive established player who they were happy with.

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It says 7 comments but I only see 6.

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 10:18 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think it screwed up because I tried posting one earlier

but it didn’t load all the way for some reason.

JI/Robert '08!

by Fin on Jul 11, 2008 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm just trying to bait the mods.

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also
Most underrated player, A.L.

1. Michael Young, Rangers, 8 votes
2. Raul Ibanez, Mariners, 8 votes

3. Chone Figgins, Angels, 7 votes
4. Grady Sizemore, Indians, 6 votes
5. Placido Polanco, Tigers, 4 votes

by thenatural on Jul 11, 2008 10:52 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I can't believe Sizemore got votes to being underrated.

He is Cleveland’s star player. His name does not belong with those other 4 listed.

Oh, and it is time to sell high, obviously.

by Wilder. on Jul 11, 2008 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sizemore's is the only name that belongs

Why he isn’t beloved by fans seems crazy to me. Especially considering he’s a fantasy stud. Grady Sizemore, the 2008 AL MVP so far and most underrated MLB player.

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 11, 2008 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Thanks for recognizing me as the second most valuable player so far in 2008?"

Is that what he has to say?

.366 OBP, .556 SLG, 410 PAs, 5/5 SB, decent center field defense
.377 OBP, .537 SLG, 409 PAs, 21/24 SB, good center field defense

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 11, 2008 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Neither are MVPs.

Their teams aren’t contending, so essentially their stats are worthless.

by LantermanC on Jul 11, 2008 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, but I never got into the mini games.

Those always bored me.
Also, baseball games in general… I always set a goal to play all the games. And end up simulating over 75% otherwise I’d never get to do an offseason or two.

by LantermanC on Jul 11, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I played two full seasons in MVP 2005 once, but then I tried playing drunk

and accidentally erased my saved games. That blew.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Jul 11, 2008 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

23 consecutive walks.

The game had issues.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Jul 11, 2008 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I miss High Heat.

Although lately I’m enjoying MLB ‘08 The Show.

by BrianL on Jul 11, 2008 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I always felt like the chances of a puck going into the goal

was too random. Of course it’s like that in real life sort of, but the ability to not control the goalie is frustrating.
At least in Fifa or Winnign 11, some of the more automatic goals or just normal goals seemed to make sense when they went in.

by LantermanC on Jul 11, 2008 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

NHL 09

sounds like its going to be the sports game of the forever.

The poster formerly known as Matt.

by bluemax on Jul 11, 2008 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't say we didn't at least try to talk about baseball.

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Moved to RF...

I’m not sure he’s even been the most valuable Ranger so far, now that he’s playing RF. Milton’s out-VORP’d him in about 100 fewer PA, and I hardly think that the Rangers would only be able to replace those PA with “replacement level” offense. I do admit to being partial to guys with .440 OBP’s. :) And that doesn’t even count Kinsler, who leads the league in VORP. His defense would drag him down a bunch, obviously, but he’s still having a great season.

I think A-Rod and Grady will be the two most valuable by year’s-end. A-Rod trails by 100 PA, and should pass Grady’s offensive contributions, but Grady’s defense helps to balance it out.

by BobbyMac on Jul 12, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hanley Ramirez

voted 5th best defensive infielder in the NL…

by LantermanC on Jul 11, 2008 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ew.

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip

by Phildopip on Jul 11, 2008 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chone.

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip

by Phildopip on Jul 11, 2008 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shaun

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Siouxsie

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Jul 11, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Nobody knows him because he’s in Seattle, but he goes out and does it every day."

If by it, they mean

then, yes.

Also, apparently Seattle is on Mars.

I'm more like I am now than I've ever been.

by ralphie81 on Jul 11, 2008 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I love when it’s first loading up and kind of in slow-mo, the ball all of a sudden appears to explode, and then you see the YES logo.

I'm more like I am now than I've ever been.

by ralphie81 on Jul 11, 2008 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

GOD

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why?

I'm more like I am now than I've ever been.

by ralphie81 on Jul 18, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But Yuni can pick it from both sides!

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip

by Phildopip on Jul 11, 2008 11:04 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm confused.

Maybe I missed the answer to this somewhere along the line, but if sandwhiches are really Yuni’s problem, can’t the team just put him on a diet? Can’t we get 2005 Yuni back?

Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?

by The Alaskan on Jul 11, 2008 11:16 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

*Sandwiches

Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?

by The Alaskan on Jul 11, 2008 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sammiches.

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip

by Phildopip on Jul 11, 2008 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

*a ton

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe he lied about his age.

Perhaps he’s really 35, but he lied about his age. That’s why he was as good as he’ll ever be 4 years ago… he was already 31…
And and he’s got a baby-faced disease as well that keeps his apperanace youthful.

by LantermanC on Jul 11, 2008 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yuni has added weight with fat and bulk.

It’s not really a reversible process.

by Jeff on Jul 11, 2008 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did you see that Christian Bale movie

where he lost 60 lbs? All you have to do, is eat almost nothing every day for half a year or so. Simple really.

by LantermanC on Jul 11, 2008 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The movie was The Machinist

And he ate nothing but an apple and a can of tuna for a few months to lose the weight. It’s really pretty freaky.

by johnbai on Jul 11, 2008 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He did something similar for Rescue Dawn.

That was after he got all huge for Batman. Christian Bale is going to die very young, and I think Werner Herzog might be the one that kills him.

by acblue on Jul 11, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well he's certainly not on steroids.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Jul 11, 2008 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Some people have insinuated

that he used them.

The poster formerly known as Matt.

by bluemax on Jul 11, 2008 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Look at that tiny head!

Come on!

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Jul 11, 2008 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Running and diet helps...

It’s totally reversible if the team had the cajones or brains or whatever to hold him to a strict exercise plan until he lost it. It looks like he’s put on 20 lbs, that really doesn’t raise a bunch of red flags in the M’s front office? Particularly for a shortstop that’s something that can drastically affect performance, and they could actually do something about it if they wanted to/knew they had the option/recognized there was a problem in the first place.

by OlSalty on Jul 11, 2008 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's put it this way:

(1) Yuni could lose weight
(2) He’s still, for a variety of reasons, almost certainly never going to approach 2005’s level of athleticism and agility, no matter what he does

by Jeff on Jul 11, 2008 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think he'd ever get back to his 2005 form

And dealing him while his stock is still high would be the right move, but I have no confidence that this team will realize that he is overvalued in the trade market and sell high. Assuming he’s on the team next year his range would likely be better than it is now if he lost some of that weight, and even a marginal improvement is a good thing if the front office wants him to be our shortstop for the future. It just seems like laziness or apathy to me on their part (and Yuni’s) that their starting shortstop, whose value is largely centered around his defensive ability, was allowed to put on a substantial amount of fat/”bulk” and have nothing done about it (at least nothing that’s been made public). It’s not surprising but it’s something they need to address if he’s going to be on the team in ‘09 and signs aren’t looking good that they recognize there’s a problem.

by OlSalty on Jul 11, 2008 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I never understood pro athletes who do this.

You’re a pro athlete! You have the best job in the world! You can hire people to watch waht you eat! Why pull a Shawn Kemp?

by LantermanC on Jul 11, 2008 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Food tastes good.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on Jul 11, 2008 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't assume it's 100% Kemp-like

Sometimes guys in their low 20s just haven’t finished filling out yet. I remember when A-Rod came up as an absolute whiz at SS at age 19/20. He was never going to regain that range - no matter what he did or didn’t eat - simply because he was growing into a larger human being (with bonus home run power!).

Sure, maybe some of Yuni’s body mass is extra cheese, but probably some of it is natural growth, too. But your point stands that as a pro athlete his livelihood depends on maximizing* the physique he’s got.

*not literally, of course

by busplunger on Jul 11, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I guess everyone's different.

But from 24-26, most people don’t gain 20 lbs (well, a lot of peope do, but that’s a different story). I’m almost the exact same size now as I was when I’m 16. I’m fairly sure that Ichiro is the same size now as he was when he was 21.

by LantermanC on Jul 11, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed, everyone's different

I’m certainly no pro athlete, but my late-blooming self gained about 15 pounds right around age 24, with essentially no change in body composition. It made a small but noticeable difference in my distance-running ability, although I think I’ve “adjusted” to my size now. Of course, there’s no comparison between running a half-marathon and playing shortstop in the majors… just giving an example of one runt whose weight spiked in his early/mid twenties. :-)

by busplunger on Jul 11, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I admit it.

That interview she did on KJR sold me on her.

by BrianL on Jul 11, 2008 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

She's not my favorite candidate

but I would be open to her winning the job.

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

Not my favorite candidate, but I’d be happy if she was our new GM.

by BrianL on Jul 11, 2008 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we could get a seriously worthwhile hual from the Dodgers if we packaged Yuni and Bedard...

I’ve been thinking about this for a while and it almost makes too much sense. Meaning it won’t happen.

by SethGrandpa on Jul 11, 2008 1:48 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

We could probably get a decent haul for Yuni and Washburn.

That would solve like 3 problems at once.

Go Nova

by dbroncos31 on Jul 11, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shoot, if all we got was a 1b who could

A) take a walk
B) play average to above average defense

I’d be sold.

by LantermanC on Jul 11, 2008 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm just interested in seeing if the Dodgers are really dumb enough to trade Kemp.

His name keeps coming up as available for a “big time” deal. Pipedream.

by SethGrandpa on Jul 11, 2008 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alternate title: Baseball Players Should Stick To Playing

They got Chase Utley right.

See what JI started by dropping the periods?

by JI on Jul 11, 2008 2:12 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree, but...

I don’t understand how the voters can vote for Hanley as the 5th-best defensive infielder, and then only 5th in MVP voting. That’s just absurd. It’s not even like the flimsy “bad team” excuse can be pulled, since the Fish are doing well.

by BobbyMac on Jul 12, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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