Contend In '09: Filling Out The Roster
Note: there's an update posted at the bottom
A few days ago I made my case that this team isn't that far off from being a contender, and that the organization by no means needs to blow things up and start all over again. In fact, given only a handful of constaints, I found myself content with a surprisingly substantial fraction of the roster being part of a solid team, of which a reminder is shown below:
At the end of the post, I promised a second part to the series, a part where I would demonstrate how to make this team good again with just a handful of simple additions. After talking it over with Graham and Matthew, this is that part.
Before getting started, however, I do want to say that what you're about to read isn't the way to get better. It's - a - way to get better, a way that the three of us have agreed works pretty well without jeopardizing the big picture. But there are countless different ways in which this team could improve. Ways with more trades; ways with different constraints; ways requiring more imagination than we allowed of ourselves. This is but an exercise in creativity to show that the organization isn't in as bad shape as it seems. Nothing more.
So with that out of the way, let's get started. The partial roster I originally listed had holes at SP, 1B, DH, LF, 4th OF, utility IF, bench bat, and bench bat/reliever. Off we go.
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Starting Pitcher
The three of us agreed that, if this team wants to compete next year, it needs to make some kind of splash. And when the only decent big-name bats on the market are due to get far too much money, what do you do? You look at the arms. There's not all that much out there, but there is talent, and the talent is more affordable than, say, Mark Texieira is going to be. On which arm did we settle?
AJ Burnett: the idea here is that Burnett will opt out of his contract, negating the final $24m/2yr of his Toronto deal and thereby going back to free agency. It's not a guarantee, but for the time being the odds look pretty good. Why Burnett? Mostly because he's good while his ERA is not. Burnett's a power pitcher who does a reasonable job of keeping the ball on the ground, but his ERA stands at 5.23 despite entering the day with a tRA of 3.96. That's bad for his market value. Even with a regression-happy second half, he'll still be looking at something higher than most pitchers would like to have when they're trying to get paid. I'd offer him a few million more than the Silva contract to come in and form probably the best rotation 1-2-3 in the league. If it's not enough, throw in a little more money. It's going to be an overpay regardless - Burnett is 31 and injury-prone - but this team has the ability to absorb an overpay to a talented player, and the short-term upside is pretty high if you're looking to win in '09/'10.
If Burnett doesn't work out, throw the same sort of money at Ben Sheets. Just do what you can to try and land one of those two without going too many years, because holy crap we'd never allow runs ever.
First Base
I hope you liked spending money on the rotation, because we're going bargain basement everywhere else.
Russ Branyan: do I even need to say anything about this? Branyan hasn't collected 300 PAs in a season since 2002 despite a career OPS+ of 110, and after accepting a minor league contract from Milwaukee this year all he's done is lead the minors in OPS and then come up and slug .636 through 99 at bats. He's not a great player, but he's always available, he's always cheap, and he's always productive, and as a left-handed mammoth he could make sure the people in the Hit It Here Cafe are a wee bit more skittish. So he strikes out all the time. Who cares? At the end of the day, you just want a guy who can produce a little bit, and Branyan's been producing for as long as he's been a big leaguer.
In the unlikely event that Branyan becomes untouchable, there's always Big Ben Broussard!
Designated Hitter
Surprise!
Raul Ibanez: because why not? I didn't really think about it while writing the original 2009 post, but after talking it over, it makes all kinds of sense.
Left Field
The 08/09 free agency crop is pretty underwhelming, but there's one player in there who could prove to be the new Jose Guillen. A guy with the potential to go straight from the scrap heap to the middle of the order.
Juan Rivera: two years ago, a 27 year old Rivera reached a new level by posting a 126 OPS+ as a regular outfielder in LAnaheim. It was the peak of a 3.5-season period of time over which he slugged .482 with the ability to hit for average and put the ball in play. That winter, he broke his leg. Due to the injury, Rivera's 2007 was a complete and utter washout, and as part of an overstaffed Angel outfield in 2008, he's struggled to produce while getting limited and irregular playing time. Having just turned 30 a week ago, though, it's not like the ability is gone, and Rivera has the potential to re-establish himself as a legitimate run-producing corner outfielder should he be given the opportunity. I would like this to be the team that gives him such an opportunity. He's not exactly a Gold Glover, but he appears to be worth something like -10 < x < 0 in the field, which is good enough not to take much away from his offensive contributions. Juan Rivera could end up being a great, great deal. And I love a great deal.
Fourth Outfielder
In a fourth outfielder, you typically want someone capable of playing all three positions without embarrassing himself. In our case, we also wanted to find a guy who could step in as the everyday center fielder for at least a little bit in the event that Reed completely sucks. I settled on two candidates.
Endy Chavez: Endy Chavez isn't much of a hitter. At the plate, he's...he's a lot like Jeremy Reed, really. But the man has great legs and one hell of a glove, a plus CF who may very well belong to a pretty exclusive group of defensive wizards. Undervalued.
Jason Michaels: he'll be on the market should the Pirates decline his option. What he brings is more bat and less glove than Endy Chavez. Capable of hitting lefties a little bit when you want to give Ibanez or Branyan a day off. Not afraid to take a walk. Fourth outfielder to a tee.
Utility Infield
We're getting into the boring, relatively irrelevant part of the post, so I'll limit myself to just a few words.
Adam Everett: duh. Great glove. Great, great glove. Can't hit for beans. A defense-first shortstop who can actually play defense.
Alex Cora: like Michaels above, Cora brings a little more bat and a little less glove than Everett.
Bench Bat
We went looking for a righty who could spell/pinch-hit for Ibanez or Branyan.
Morgan Ensberg: hasn't become what he could've been, but the man can still punish the occasional lefty, as his career OPS against southpaws is .912. If for some reason Ensberg isn't available, you can just settle for
Generic AAAA Fan Favorite: what's that? You need to find someone capable of putting up a .760-.800 OPS against left-handed pitchers? I've got bad news for you. There are only like 2340892342093 of those available all the time for absolutely nothing.
Bench Bat/Reliever
This one we didn't really think out. Initially I gave us a seven-man bullpen with the last spot going to someone like Cesar Jimenez or Eric O'Flaherty or Josh Fields or whoever, but seven-man bullpens are stupid, so you could just as easily give this roster spot to another set of legs or really whatever you want. If it's RRS who takes that fifth rotation spot instead of Morrow or Dickey, though, then you should probably give this to a lefty reliever.
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So here's what the filled-out roster looks like. Feel free to swap Chavez with Michaels, Everett with Cora, Ensberg with anything, and (Tacoma) with anything. Also Burnett/Sheets, Branyan/Broussard, and...yeah. Anyway:
There you go. There's your contending 2009 Seattle Mariners. The offense isn't spectacular, and the defense is only okay, but the pitching staff is a strength and capable of taking this team a long way. The best part? The whole unit would actually cost about $10m less than the current variety. I set it up like this for a reason - it leaves room for Washburn to take the #5 slot if he doesn't get traded, in which case you probably jettison Dickey since there's no reason to have both him and Batista in the same bullpen. But if Washburn really is gone, then that leaves you the flexibility to make another splash by free agency or trade (or to just make the owners happy). I won't go into that, though, since I'm comfortable with what we already have.
That's a pretty good team. It's not the best team in baseball, but it should be a contender, and the only thing it costs the future is a little money for AJ Burnett (or Sheets). In other words, there's minimal sacrifice. And that's the whole point of this little series of articles. Yeah, the Mariners could blow things up if they wanted to. They wouldn't be the first team to do it, and the whole process would actually be pretty exciting. But blowing things up and starting from scratch is unnecessary when you have this kind of money and this kind of foundation. Why tear down when you can build for the future and play for the present at the same time? That's the beauty of the whole thing. Given a choice between trying to win and blowing things up, the Mariners don't have to choose. They can do both.
And they should do both.
UPDATE: so I've learned two things: (1) Endy Chavez isn't a free agent this year like Cot's says he is, and (2) Wlad's out of options, which for some reason I forgot about. So here's my new solution:
Fourth OF: Wlad. Spells Ibanez from time to time, plays for Rivera ~2-3 times a week
Fifth OF: any moron who runs fast enough to play center
Seventh Reliever: gone. It turns into a six-man bullpen. If Morrow or Dickey take the #5 slot, RRS is your lefty, but in the event that RRS takes the #5 slot, you're either without a lefty, or you have to ditch Dickey to add one. Dumping Batista would be nice, but that's a lot of money to eat.
5 recs |
301 comments
Comments
A couple of questions
I am new, so I am sorry if these questions have been answered already:
1. Is Ichiro’s switch to RF permanent?
2. Joh obviously has been god awful this season. Is he really finished as a starting catcher? It is natural for a catcher at his age to start to decline, but the way he did seems extremely fast. What are the odds he will be have regular playing time at either C/DH/or 1B next season?
3. Any chance Wlad will contribute to this team next season? (or be given a chance to)
by Tak on Jul 10, 2008 2:02 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
In order
(1) I don’t know if it’s permanent, but for the sake of this post, I’m assuming that’s at least how we’ll begin 2009
(2) I think Joh still has something more left in the tank, but he needs to get hot real soon if he wants to guarantee himself regular playing time in the future. Right now he’s on track to be a backup, because…well, he’s been really really bad
(3) If Wlad flashes ML-caliber skills, he’ll be back. For purposes of this post, I’m starting the season with Wlad in the minors, but if he forces his way into the picture then room can be made, either by platooning with Ibanez or by knocking someone out of the regular OF rotation
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 2:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the reply
and forgot to mention, great post!
by Tak on Jul 10, 2008 2:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure you can send Wlad back to the minors
next year. He’s on the opening day roster, or he’s on someone else’s team.
by marc w on Jul 10, 2008 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Juan Rivera is Ours And You Can't Have Him
by 44FAN on Jul 10, 2008 2:14 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
They are now
From Rotoworld:
Manager Mike Scioscia announced Wednesday that Gary Matthews Jr. has been benched in favor of Juan Rivera.Matthews is hitting just .186 since mid-June. “I don’t know where we’re going to be tomorrow or a week from now,” Scioscia said. “But I do know that it’s very clear, and Gary said it very clearly too, he’s not where he needs to be. Right now, Juan’s a guy we want to get some at-bats for and we’re going to take it day by day.” Rivera has gotten very little playing time after missing most of last season with an injury, but batted .310 with 23 homers in 124 games back in 2006. He should be owned in every AL-only league.
by Alex B on Jul 10, 2008 7:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Will we be giving up any draft picks by signing any of those players?
by BeltredNOT on Jul 10, 2008 2:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
But aren't we safe from losing picks if we keep playing like crap?
by BrianL on Jul 10, 2008 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our first round yes, not sure about others.
by Matthew on Jul 10, 2008 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good God, baseball's draft rules are wonky.
by BrianL on Jul 10, 2008 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is probably why
in baseball video games, they don’t bother to program any of the rules in. Too complicated. They just do the worst team to the best team for every round.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, in real life there are 230032843298 prospects to choose from, wheras in the video games
theres about 200-400. Also, there arent 100 something rounds in the video games.
I AM THOR, GOD OF THUNDER. BOW TO MY WILL AND MY HAMMER!
by anaheim angels on Jul 12, 2008 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
they're not that bad
I just don’t want they are since the CBA change.
by Matthew on Jul 10, 2008 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends.
If Burnett is a type A, the signing team would give up a first round pick, and a supplemental pick. However, since the Mariners suck, they will lose the supplemental pick, and a 2nd round pick.
If Burnett is a type B, signing team loses a supplemental pick.
Burnett was ranked as a B by Elias at the end of 2007.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jul 10, 2008 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What if we dont' have a supplemental pick?
I’m confused.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think we lose a supplemental pick
The Blue Jays (or whomever) would get a supplemental pick, but it’s not like we would lose ours (if we had one).
And if Burnett was a B after 2007, it’s highly unlikely his 2008 season makes him a type A.
by Matthew on Jul 10, 2008 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vidro Batting Cleanup Explained
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2008043066_marinernotes10.html
Basically, the reason Vidro is batting cleanup is to give Ibanez ‘protection’ because he doesn’t strike out very much.
Makes me wonder why Betancourt isn’t batting 4th right now. Or Ichiro.
I mean seriously, if you want a contact hitter behind Ibanez, is it really worth a possible vesting of a ridiculous contract to a terrible player? Now granted the vesting probably wont happen, but you can’t help but wonder why they prefer the little positive and ignore the SUPERGARGANTUANGORILLARICHIESEXSONAPEMONGERING negative that comes with it.
by Slica on Jul 10, 2008 3:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone have a guess as to what Felix will make in arbitration next season?
Are there any limits to what a first year arbitration player can make?
by Frosty Raptor on Jul 10, 2008 3:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I have a feeling Felix would make a killing in arb.
It’ll be interesting to see what the new GM does. Bavasi would likely have bought out those years.
by BrianL on Jul 10, 2008 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bavasi lowballed Felix in offering to buy out his arb years
at the same time as making Silva his 12 million per offer. It was disgusting and, frankly, out of character for him.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 10, 2008 7:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Burnett over Sheets?
I’m surprised. Unless Sheets is going to command Zito money (though he shouldn’t – he’s got health issues, the market’s chilled out a bit, and the SP just went bear on us), but even then I think I’d prefer him over Burnett for 1.3xSilva money. Not to nitpick – both would be good, but Sheets seems like the guy to get if money’s to be spent on pitching. Same age, almost the same stuff, better medical record, about the same Ks with half the walks and he’s running a .28 BABIP which is unlucky.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 10, 2008 5:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wlad is out of options (for real this time)
Either he’s on the team next year or he’s in another organization.
by davidcameron on Jul 10, 2008 5:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Good grief, already?
I can’t see the organization trading or letting him go. Looks like he’ll be getting a bench spot at the least.
I do hope that doesn’t cause the team to overlook Rivera.
by BrianL on Jul 10, 2008 7:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shoot, forgot about that.
I suppose room could be made. Probably at the expense of Jason Michaels.
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 7:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually think a Chavez/Michaels platoon could be better than Rivera.
by JI on Jul 10, 2008 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everett as a utility infielder?
Wouldn’t he save enough runs to merit having his bat in the lineup over Betancourt or Lopez?
Also, if Wlad is out of options, make him the fourth outfielder. With Ichiro and Reed, there are already two guys to play Centerfield on the roster.
by vj on Jul 10, 2008 6:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I was going to say the same thing
If Everett hit 230/290/320, how much worse than Yuni would he be?
I love the Russ Branyan idea. How’s his defense ( I have no clue)?
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 8:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not much to tell you.
He’s logged 50 ML games and 334 innings at 1B.
by BrianL on Jul 10, 2008 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everett may indeed be better than Yuni, but I'm operating under the assumption that the team doesn't want to make Yuni a bench player
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Safe assumption
they seem to like him where he is.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 10, 2008 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hell, If you get a good offer for Yuni
make Everett the regular.
by JI on Jul 10, 2008 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would really really really like to trade Yuni
but I wanted to keep things as conservative as possible in this post.
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And get Loney for Yuni.
Then we can nix the Branyan signing.
by Wilder. on Jul 10, 2008 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm hearing this a lot
I’d have to believe that the Dodgers value Loney more than this… I don’t even think Washburn (assuming they buy the fact that he’s turned it around and we pay part of his contract), Yuni, and Feier/Wlad(I know, they dont’ want an OFer, but I just mean a Wlad-level prospect) would do it.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Word on the street is the Dodgers are willing to move one of Kemp, Loney, Ethier for a SS.
The Dodgers have plenty of options for 1st base.
by Wilder. on Jul 10, 2008 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know, but Yuni
is quite possibly the worst ss in the majors, and if not that, bottom 1/3 for sure.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matter of opinion.
I’d like to think that GMs would know more than any blogger, simply because most bloggers offer their info for free. Also, if they wanted to, they could probably hire Jeff/Matthew/Graham for a mere $50k per year right now and get all this great information.
Though the example of Bill Bavasi being GM, ignoring simple things like defense, trading great relief for replacement level pitching, and not overbidding against yourself on fat sucky free agent pitchers seems to leave a dent in my theory.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only thing GMs know more about are internal scouting reports and negotiating.
Everything else is information to the public. You are taking the Graham approach of glorifying the GM position. For a blog that criticizes playing roles on a baseball team, there are some who just can’t get past the title of GM.
If the Dodgers signed Andruw Jones this last offseason, then they are probably dumb enough to trade Loney/Kemp/Ethier for Yuni, especially if they are as desperate as it sounds. Yuni still gets a lot of praise outside of Seattle. It helps that the Mariners suck and keep people from seeing how far Yuni has regressed. Like you mentioned, GMs make these kind of mistakes all of the time.
by Wilder. on Jul 10, 2008 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saying Bill Bavasi knows more about building a roster than me isn't glorifying anything
It’s being right
by Graham on Jul 10, 2008 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
So for all of the time and effort you put into analyzing the Mariners roster,
you don’t trust you could build a winning roster?
I know there are a lot of parts that go into building a roster (i.e. drafts, trades, minor league system, etc.), but most of that stuff comes as on-the-job training. Every GM goes through this process at the beginning of their career. Yeah, Bavasi may “know” more than you now, but you could do what he did if given the opportunity. We’re not talking rocket science here.
by Wilder. on Jul 10, 2008 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Graham, you got to appreciate
Wilder’s complete confidence in your abilities at least right?
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bavasi wasn't just thrown into the GM position when he sprung out of the womb
I don’t have the experience in a baseball franchise to be a good general manager. I’m very good at some of the bits Bavasi is terrible about, but all the unsexy waiver-wire scouring and tiny trades that get made? Uhhhh.
by Graham on Jul 10, 2008 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention, other little bits like
what it actually takes to get a trade done.
Right now, you (me, Jeff) are at the level where we can see first (and some second) level moves pretty clearly, but we aren’t looking beyond that nor have any idea how to actually turn those ideas into fruition because none of us have any experience working in a front office.
There’s a reason people work as advisors first, then AGMs for years before getting a GM job. The public sees maybe 5-10% of a GMs job.
by Matthew on Jul 10, 2008 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Trust me, I read Moneyball; I know how to get a trade done
You need to sweet talk the other GMs’s secretaries and then lie your ass off
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on Jul 10, 2008 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Part of me wonders if this book has done more harm than good to the sabermetric community.
I know it’s what finally got me to investigate statistical analysis, but it really has become a lightning rod.
by BrianL on Jul 10, 2008 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Enh
People dumb enough to attack it would have found something else to whine about
by Graham on Jul 10, 2008 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's weird too because it is basically a capitalist argument about baseball.
To gain advantage, look for things that are undervalued and exploit. It’s like looking for a hole in the stock market and buy those stocks – or selling stocks when their value is highest. It really isn’t that revolutionary or scary.
by Jed MC on Jul 10, 2008 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are some pretty stupid people around
by Graham on Jul 10, 2008 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not necessarily for not buying into Moneyball, but for getting upset about it
by Graham on Jul 10, 2008 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Branch Rickey probably put it best.
Baseball people generally are allergic to new ideas.
In other words, people are very stupid.
by BrianL on Jul 10, 2008 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not stupid, just risk-averse.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on Jul 10, 2008 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Risk aversion makes smart people do stupid things.
Especially in a small, closed shop like MLB.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on Jul 10, 2008 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm glad Graham got into this subject
because the complexity of a GM’s job is something many people overlook when discussing his decision-making.
by Gomez on Jul 10, 2008 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's also
contract negotiations, coordinating scouting departments, coordination of minor league personnel. Alot of that falls under the GM duties as well.
Midnight Baseball - No Lights - Only in Alaska!
by MfaninAlaska on Jul 10, 2008 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep. I was just talking roster building
by Graham on Jul 10, 2008 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know you were.
Most people when they think of the GM just think of the major league roster and how its built. Its all the other stuff a GM is responsible for that makes it such a difficult job.
Midnight Baseball - No Lights - Only in Alaska!
by MfaninAlaska on Jul 10, 2008 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno...
it looks pretty easy on MVP Baseball/Baseball Mogul…
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm amazing at Madden
I should just be the Hawks GM over Tim Ruskell. I always win the Super Bowl AND I get like three extra free first rounders every season!
by seattlebruin on Jul 10, 2008 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't cheat
unless you count resetting the game whenever the player I want gets drafted too high cheating
by seattlebruin on Jul 10, 2008 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, I think I covered this under:
“The only thing GMs know more about are internal scouting reports and negotiating.”
by Wilder. on Jul 10, 2008 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it's the whole "efficient markets" thing.
Baseball teams want to win, and people get paid a lot of money if they can get teams to win. The jobs are highly competitive and sought after, you’d THINK that baseball would thus promote the brightest, most innovative, and hardest working of people. But oftentimes, like everything else in this world, it’s just about who you know, and getting that first lucky step into the “old boys club”. What a crock of crap.
Example of this in the real world? My brother who has a pretty good resume, would like to get a cpa job in Seattle instead of St. Louis, but he doesn’t really hear anything back from any of the cpa firms in Seattle because HR people are usually the dumbest of all business people I suppose. So finally he gets my mom to ask an old business friend who is good friends with a partner at the top CPA firm, and in less than 24 hours, my brother gets an email requesting an interview? Stupid? I think so, but I imagine it works fairly similarly in baseball, where smart people aren’t promoted. (Probably the same thing as ESPN as well, has anyone seen Matthew Berry’s articles lately? They are beyond stupid! I don’t care about you’re dating life. And if a pitcher has a 3.1 ERA in the last month, this means close to nothing, it does not mean I should pick him up!)
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Err,
a player’s medical records are not public information. Neither are his training records: what he’s doing in the weight room, what he’s doing in the batting case, what aspects of his game he’s working on, the progress he’s made, his diet.
Nor are his opinions of his coaches about his swing or his pitching mechanics, what he needs to work on, how successful he’s been at working on those things; short term, medium term, and long term opinions.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jul 10, 2008 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this qualifies under scouting reports.
by Wilder. on Jul 10, 2008 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The medical records?
The training records?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jul 10, 2008 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
When a team scouts another player, they often request those documents… at least before a trade is finalized.
by Wilder. on Jul 10, 2008 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, if you want to throw
medical, training records, and coaching reports all under scouting reports, that’s a LOT of information.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jul 10, 2008 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the hell?
Does ZIPS really project that for Lastings Milledge? 466 HRs? He better get out of Washington then.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about character issues, such as what he needs to succeed?
Does he respond well to criticism? Does he adapt well, does he need to be nurtured, ego, etc…?
I AM THOR, GOD OF THUNDER. BOW TO MY WILL AND MY HAMMER!
by anaheim angels on Jul 12, 2008 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have to believe
that their availability in order is:
1. Ethier
2. Kemp
3. Loney
Ethier has the lowest ceiling and seems the most expendable. Kemp has the highest ceiling but Torre and Plaschke hate him so he could go for the right offer. The Dodgers love Loney the most so he’d be the hardest to pry away.
Yuni is not worth any of them.
The poster formerly known as Matt.
by bluemax on Jul 10, 2008 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I personally find it incredible how much the local media influences the local sports teams
Plaschke and Simers are terrible, and yet people hang on their every word. Go figure.
It’s like the people of LA as a whole refuse to/are incapable of thinking for themselves. It’s quite unsettling, actually.
by seattlebruin on Jul 10, 2008 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tampa did that with Bartlett.
Solid infield defense sure helps a team.
A Beltre-Everett-Lopez-Branyan infield would be pretty good, right? The left side would be unconcious. I would like to see us keep Lopez, at least for a few more years.
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.
by Montucky on Jul 10, 2008 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lopez's defense is below-average at best.
My layout.spellcheckDefault goes to 11
by PositivePaul on Jul 10, 2008 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully we get a post on this soon.
We can have the think tank of Matthew/Jeff/Graham/Dave/Derek
Do some work on this.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the post:
Lopez has historically been an average to above-average defensive second baseman.
Through half of 2008, one metric thinks he has sucked, while another thinks he has not.
One half season of defense is not enough from which to draw any conclusions.
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dead brothers are worth ~5 runs, aren't they? ;P
by Gomez on Jul 10, 2008 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget to normalize for park factors
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on Jul 10, 2008 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fuck, what's the dead brother park factor at Safeco?
has BP, THT or Tango put those numbers out yet?
by Gomez on Jul 10, 2008 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BP's dead brother metrics suck
and THT hasn’t started adjusting for shared memories yet. The best thing I’ve read so far on this subject is the Fielding Bible, which has a +/- system. For example the brother died, but Loafie had a kid. So he’s in the -5
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 10, 2008 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Shit, no wonder Moyer's still pitching
With all those kids he’s got to be +40, which would easily negate his old age.
by Gomez on Jul 10, 2008 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Koshansky?
I’ve been watching Joe Koshansky out of Colorado, who is currently with the their AAA team. He’s a lefty firstbaseman who is essentially blocked by Helton and his rediculous contract.
He seems to have been struggling over the past month, his numbers could be inflated playing in Colorado Springs, and he’ll be 27 next year so he’s not much of a prospect anymore. But I haven’t heard his name come up anywhere and was wondering if he had leprocy and nobody wanted him.
by DJ@MT on Jul 10, 2008 6:55 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
So given that he's 27, playing in the highest park in the land, and not exactly destroying the PCL
why would anybody be very interested in him? I mean, we’ve got Brian LaHair right here in Tacoma, and I’d love to hear what the big difference between the two is.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 10, 2008 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because he's better than LaHair
I don’t claim to be an expert on Koshansky or Lahair, but in 5 minor league seasons Koshansky has put up a line of .282/.365/.532 with 120 HR’s. Now some of that may have been helped by Colo Sprs thin air but in 06’ his line in Tulsa was .284/.371/.526 with 31 HR in 132 games. All I’m getting at is he has been pretty consistent all the way through the minors.
LaHair’s line in 6 seasons in the minors is .286/.350/.455, with 70 HR’s. Much of his overall numbers get a nice boost from the season he played in Inl Empire in 05’ where he hit .310/.373/.503 with 22 HR’s.
It would just appear to me that Koshansky may be a better fit for Safeco than any other 1st base options the M’s have in the minors now. Plus, with Colorado having Helton at first for the forseeable future it would seem he could be had at a decent price.
by DJ@MT on Jul 10, 2008 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LaHair is younger and hitting alright in a pitchers park
but I’m not going to argue that LaHair is as good a player. But giving Koshansky the once-over he doesn’t seem to be overwhelmingly better than LaHair. Also, His (Koshansky’s) name doesn’t mean ‘the hair’ in French, which iis a big minus.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 10, 2008 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Endy does indeed
play phenomenal D. He’s the Adam Everett, the Mark Ellis, the Pedro Feliz of the OF. He’s also not available. The Mets have him on a 2 year contract.
As a long time fan of His Majesty the King of the TTO Russ Branyan, I salute you for choosing him as your 1b. It’s completely idiotic that teams needing some cheap offense this year, like the Mariners, BJs, Mets, A’s, just passed on him and allowed the Brewers to get him on a minor league contract.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jul 10, 2008 7:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Looks like you're right.
Not an FA until after the 2009 season.
by BrianL on Jul 10, 2008 7:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Rivera isn't available, how about a 1-year stop-gap with Mike Cameron?
I can’t believe he’s still OPSing over .800, but he is. RZR still seems to be pretty high on him, too.
Not the most ideal of solutions, but it buys time to see if Wlad can pan out.
by BrianL on Jul 10, 2008 8:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He's unlikely to want to come back to Safeco
and for good reason.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 10, 2008 8:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just suggesting that an offer be extended.
by BrianL on Jul 10, 2008 8:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine,
but why would you get a bat so ill suited for the park? You can look at his batting lines from his time in the Safe and say “oh, they’re deflated by playing here he’s actually a much better hitter” and that’s fine. But at the end of the day he still has to play half his games in Seattle, so his actual production is what it is regardless of park adjustment. Maybe it would be better to look for a right handed bat that hits to all fields? Or makes better contact or has a better approach. Not that Cameron is terrible at those things, just that his one major offensive tool is pretty neutralized by our park.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 10, 2008 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd think about it, but the Brewers hold a 2009 option that they may or may not pick up.
Also, Rivera’s set to be a free agent.
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So USSM
just came out with a piece explaining how both Yuni and Jose Lopez are terrible defensively. I know you wrote this up with what is realistic, and what the Mariner’s actually would do, but I really wish we could just start over with our 2B/SS defense.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 8:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not buying that Lopez is that bad at defense yet
Yuni…I totally buy it on Yuni.
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone keeps saying he looks fat,
but does 10 lbs really do that much to a SS’s ability to field? Or was he never really that good in the first place? Just a few amazing plays and a good reputation in Cuba inflated his defensive value?
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playing SS requires physical speed and flexibility
Bulk subtracts significantly from both.
by Gomez on Jul 10, 2008 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hm...
My weight fluctuates between 130 and 150, and I don’t notice a difference in speed or flexibility.
But yes, I have noticed that besides the boneheaded plays, Yuni just doesn’t seem to get (or even attempt to get really) several balls it looks like he could’ve made before. Just wondering if it could be attributed to something other than his weight.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Yuni isn't 130 or 150
There’s a threshold where your weight begins to affect your mobility, and Yuni’s passed it.
by Gomez on Jul 10, 2008 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question. Does anything think that Ichiro weighs 170?
He’s listed as 5’9” 170, and I can’t imagine him weighing that much more than me.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe with muscle, sure
But that’s an interesting observation: I hang around 170-175, can’t be more than an inch or two taller, and I’m definitely thicker than Ichiro.
by Gomez on Jul 10, 2008 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adipose cells are much less dense than myocytes.
When I start exercising I usually start gaining weight as I build up some strength, then it comes down a bit as the spare tires deflate.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 10, 2008 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you're not a professional athlete
where split seconds make a big difference. You may be affected by the weight changes, but nobody is measuring and the difference is probably too small to notice with your normal activities.
by Jed MC on Jul 10, 2008 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, my 200 meter dash
and one mile, and 3 mile times are barely affected.
Though I believe the theory is 1 lb = 1 second per mile.
Not sure what it would mean for a SS, since most of that is just having a quick first step (or quick first 4 steps).
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a SS you're talking about split seconds
and performance at the edges of human ability. So i think anything extra would make a difference.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 10, 2008 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How tall are you?
130-150 sounds extremely light.
If you’re going to compare your weight gain with Betancourt’s, try looking at your 10 yard, 40 yard times, vertical jump height with a dynamic counter movement start, vertical jump height with a static start, depth jump height off a 3 foot box. 200 metre and mile times are too dissimilar to playing D on baseball.
Also, flexibility. I’m a weightlifter, 180-185. When I put on weight, I gain absolute strength, often quite a bit, often very quickly. Unless I’m very careful, I also start losing flexibility, and relative strength..
The key is really what type of weight Lopez is putting on.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jul 10, 2008 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm 5'8", I ran cross country in college (one of the fatter guys on the team though)
You’re right though, too many variables. My weight can fluctuate, but if I’m running more minutes per week, my sprinting time will get worse and my distance times will get better. And if I’m lifting weights, my weight will increase, but my times will not necessarily go up or down.
For flexibility, I’m not sure how weight changes at all with this. I just know that generally (from some running study), the best distance runners are the most inflexible (don’t know why), though this does not mean that if they become more flexible that they lose speed. Just that their natural flexibility is correlated to their ability to run fast for long periods of time.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why type of flexibility are you referring to?
Dynamic? Static? Active? Passive?
I dunno, but from what I’ve read, among sprinters at least, the greater the dynamic flexibility in the hips, the better the sprinter: this allows for greater stride length.
As to how weight changes flexiblity: Try to do a full squat, that is ass to ankles, as quickly as possible. Now, let’s say the size of your midsection, an hips, increases. Try to do the same. Or, try to bend quickly to the side and touch the floor. Increase the size of your midsection. Do that again.
In weightlifting, which like baseball is an explosive sport, if you look at the totals that are lifted, absolute strength goes up, ie the amount of weight lifted. as you go up the weight classes. However, relative strength, that is the amount of weight relative to how much the lifter weighs, goes down.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jul 10, 2008 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Loafie seems to have some semblance of range
Not 01-03 Boone awesome, though.
by BrianL on Jul 10, 2008 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he was 01-03 Boone awesome
I wouldn’t care if he he only had an obp of 320.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fielding Bible says
-12 so far this year, 31st among second baseman.
by davidcameron on Jul 10, 2008 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you have numbers from 2007 and past?
Because half a season of defense is an awfully small sample size and that’s only one measurement while I know, for example, PMR has him rated about average.
by Matthew on Jul 10, 2008 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
UZR had him as +8 between 2003-2007
PMR’s okay with him. Even this year’s RZR is okay with him.
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would.
Unimpressive range + his fair share of boneheaded plays = not good.
by JI on Jul 10, 2008 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, btw, I said that Lopez and Yuni
are like Michael Boulware and Ken Hamlin (been saying this for 2 years or so actually), and it looks like I was right.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I like about the Branyan/Ensberg platoon
is that it gives you a lot of defensive flexibility. This team has had too many shitty bench players for too long. And, hey, if they flame out there’s a 1000 guys just like them bouncing around AAA.
by JI on Jul 10, 2008 8:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Is Brandon Inge a free agent?
Let’s get him for 2b, I don’t care if he’s good at that position, I just like Brandon Inge.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 8:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh, Beltre will be gone by then!
... wait [sobs]
by Gomez on Jul 10, 2008 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are two things this roster still needs:
1) We need a right handed batter / S-hitter with good OBP skills.
It’s too damned hard to build a lineup when your top 5 OBP guys are left handed, and all your RHBs are hovering from .290-.330. (I’d be curious as to what Brian Roberts price tag would be).
2) Assuming the team isn’t willing to shift Ichiro back and forth between RF and CF, this roster needs a decent right handed hitting outfielder who can handle center. We really don’t have much of and idea of how a non-injured Reed handles left handed pitching (Thanks Riggleman, I’m so glad you’re interested in this teams long term health) and I don’t thinks it’s wise to have that many black holes when a LHP is one the mound.
by JI on Jul 10, 2008 8:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
And hey, isn't he right handed?
Just not *good yet..almost there though…needs more LF.
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.
by Montucky on Jul 10, 2008 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, and Mike Morse can play SS (when his arm's not falling off)...
by Gomez on Jul 10, 2008 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Tui and... Triunfel
And Jeter.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, Richie is right handed
let’s re-sign him and play him at SS!!
by seattlebruin on Jul 10, 2008 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there a part 3 titled "What would happen if a Jeff/Matthew/Graham dictatorship were GM" post?
by Jed MC on Jul 10, 2008 8:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sad for what could be?
Or sad because we know that there is no chance that even half of it would ever be implemented?
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because you will fill our heads with wonderful personnel moves that will never happen?
by BrianL on Jul 10, 2008 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because part 3 describes what would happen to this site if they leave
by Robert on Jul 10, 2008 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I was the GM of the Mariners I'd spend my spare time trolling here
by Graham on Jul 10, 2008 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If your GM of the Mariners than I get made mod and I finally get to ban you.
by Robert on Jul 10, 2008 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine. I'd just trade Wlad in retaliation
by Graham on Jul 10, 2008 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Butthol is Bavasi?
who knew.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 10, 2008 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2nd paragraph of the post:
“After talking it over with Graham and Matthew, this is that part.”
by Jed MC on Jul 10, 2008 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All three of us worked on this
I’m just the only freak awake late enough to post it.
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The exclusion of Texieria made me suspicious
damn your fiscal sense.
by JI on Jul 10, 2008 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we didn't have Silva's contract?
Would you be more inclined to put Teixeira on this post? Or is overpaying still overpaying, no matter how you look at it (or aging concerns for that matter)
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it makes you feel better, we thought about it
by Graham on Jul 10, 2008 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just read on ESPN
that Boras plans to ask for $23 million per year for 8 to 10 years…. I know Boras always says crap like that, but hot damn, that is a lot. 184 for 8 years blows my 120 for 7 years wishful thinking out of the water.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really new info
Heyman on SI a couple months ago was saying that figures like $200M was what Boras is looking for.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jul 10, 2008 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh... well I don't read SI.
And only read ESPN because I have a fantasy team on it’s server.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boras wanted $200m for Beltre
it’s all bullshit and it’s bad for ya.
by JI on Jul 10, 2008 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definition of dictatorship
A government in which a single leader or party exercises absolute control over all citizens and every aspect of their lives
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
dammit, didn't even read party
I’m an idiot.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they're not a party, necessarily.
Let’s go with oligarchy. It’s happily non-specific.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on Jul 10, 2008 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It can't be a dictatorship with three heads
it’s either the Jeff Dictatorship or the J/M/G not-so-democratically elected ticket
by seattlebruin on Jul 10, 2008 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Russ Branyan
Anyone remember the USSM gathering in 2006 where Dave asked Bavasi why he’d signed Carl Everett instead of someone better and cheaper like Russ Branyan?
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on Jul 10, 2008 9:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I still would rather find some other freely available talent if possible
because Branyan’s OBP isn’t good.
by JI on Jul 10, 2008 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perfect.
Then I’m sure the Mariners will love him.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny Story
Meeting you that day helped crushed my spirits.
by Robert on Jul 10, 2008 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some nitpicks
Great stuff Jeff.
1 – the most eye-opening thing for me this year has been just how little you can get out of a big-time SP acquisition if you don’t do anything to your defense. The only major change to the starting/every day defense in this scenario is adding… Russ Branyan and Juan Rivera. Hmm. “Because holy crap we’d never allow runs ever,” I’ve heard this before…. 2 – “Branyan hasn’t collected 300 PAs in a season since 2002 despite a career OPS+ of 110” Yes, and there’s a reason for this. He’s a platoon player. Even this year, he has all of 12 PAs versus southpaws (0-12, 7Ks). This means taking a guy at the absolute peak of his value (which admittedly is still not much), taking him from a situation that’s tilted to his advantage and plunking him down in a starting role in a new league. There’s next to no data on his 1B defense, but I’ll bet one American dollar that he won’t be above average there.More importantly, his OPS is so highly dependent upon his slugging. This isn’t to say he’s not a patient hitter, but even this year, his OBP is under .350. That’s good patience, but you know he’s not capable of hitting for average. Make him face lefties for 100-150PAs, and this goes down further. This team needs a real OBP machine, and I’m quite willing to sacrifice power for that. OBP+D! 3 – Given #1, I’d be much more comfortable with Rivera-on-bargain-deal if we knew more about his defense. Looked pretty good in 2006, not so much in 2005. Then he lost 1.5 seasons to a broken leg, turned 30, etc. We have no idea right now what he’s like as an every day LF. Given that he’s not producing much at the plate right now (though you’re quite right that he might when given an opportunity), this seems like quite the roll of the dice. Sure, it’s a cheap roll, but why not get something that you know will be there – either defense, OBP or power. Rivera is one of those Jose Guillen like guys who could really surprise at the plate, but let’s not forget how much value Guillen gave back with the glove.
by marc w on Jul 10, 2008 9:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You ate my formatting!
1 – the most eye-opening thing for me this year has been just how little you can get out of a big-time SP acquisition if you don’t do anything to your defense. The only major change to the starting/every day defense in this scenario is adding… Russ Branyan and Juan Rivera. Hmm. "Because holy crap we’d never allow runs ever," I’ve heard this before….
2 – "Branyan hasn’t collected 300 PAs in a season since 2002 despite a career OPS+ of 110" Yes, and there’s a reason for this. He’s a platoon player. Even this year, he has all of 12 PAs versus southpaws (0-12, 7Ks). This means taking a guy at the absolute peak of his value (which admittedly is still not much), taking him from a situation that’s tilted to his advantage and plunking him down in a starting role in a new league. There’s next to no data on his 1B defense, but I’ll bet one American dollar that he won’t be above average there.
More importantly, his OPS is so highly dependent upon his slugging. This isn’t to say he’s not a patient hitter, but even this year, his OBP is under .350. That’s good patience, but you know he’s not capable of hitting for average. Make him face lefties for 100-150PAs, and this goes down further. This team needs a real OBP machine, and I’m quite willing to sacrifice power for that. OBP+D!
3 – Given #1, I’d be much more comfortable with Rivera-on-bargain-deal if we knew more about his defense. Looked pretty good in 2006, not so much in 2005. Then he lost 1.5 seasons to a broken leg, turned 30, etc. We have no idea right now what he’s like as an every day LF. Given that he’s not producing much at the plate right now (though you’re quite right that he might when given an opportunity), this seems like quite the roll of the dice. Sure, it’s a cheap roll, but why not get something that you know will be there – either defense, OBP or power. Rivera is one of those Jose Guillen like guys who could really surprise at the plate, but let’s not forget how much value Guillen gave back with the glove.
by marc w on Jul 10, 2008 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jumping between here and the lab, but in order:
(1) our team defense has actually been average to a little above-average since Jeremy Reed came up and started getting playing time. That’s with Ibanez in left and Sexson at first. Given that I don’t think Rivera or Branyan are nightmares of that magnitude, we’d probably be okay.
(2) Branyan’s a big reason why we added Ensberg to the bench. I didn’t want to call it a strict platoon, since I’d like to see if Branyan could handle a near-fulltime role, but there is a bit of protection built into the roster for this sort of thing. His OBP could definitely be better, but if his OBP were better, he wouldn’t be freely available.
(3) Rivera’s definitely a roll of the dice, but again, that’s the sort of risk you have to assume when you’re scraping the bottom of the barrel. We tried looking for defense but there just isn’t anything out there in free agency, and while you could probably pull of a trade for Coco Crisp pretty easy, we didn’t want to talk about trades in this post because they open the door to pretty much anything. The neat thing about Rivera, I think, is that if he doesn’t produce, he wouldn’t be too hard to kick out of the way to make room for Wlad, who’d hopefully be a year older and a year better. So, again, there’s some built-in protection.
(Speaking of Wlad, I just addressed this by adding an update to the bottom of the original post.)
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Jeff -
On 1, yeah, the long hoped-for regression to the mean seems to be happening now. A few months too late. I just don’t think Reed (or anyone) can make THIS kind of a difference. This may be SSS theatre, and I’m just itching to get actual defensive help. I’d be much more confident if I knew – just flat-out KNEW – that Branyan would be better than Sexson. I don’t know that, though.
2 – What do you expect from Branyan in a bigger-role-but-not-quite-every-day-role? How about from Ensberg? As far as OBP not being freely available, I’m not so sure. I know Dave C hates the guy, but Brian Myrow is the definition of freely available talent, and his OBP in the PCL this year is .455. Last year? .440. I guess the Pads just called him up, but whatever – they’ve got that Gonzalez guy at 1b. Hell, I’m not sure that Dallas McPherson isn’t just as good or a better bet than Branyan for ‘09.
3- Why are we scraping the bottom of the barrel? The more I think about it, the more I really like Dave’s idea of Nelson Cruz out there. That’s technically a trade, so I understand why it wasn’t contemplated here, but given how little we know about Rivera, I just think it might make more sense to get someone who we all at least know can play every day. Yes, Rivera would be easy to jettison just like Wilkerson if it doesn’t work out, but that’s true of most players we’d contemplate for this spot.
by marc w on Jul 10, 2008 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with a lot of what you're saying.
But mainly, sure we need some offense, but I’d like our defense to be better. Those are my two biggest priorites, defense and OBP skills, which is why I feel Yuni is oftentimes the poster child for what is wrong with this organization.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm never going to get any work done today
(1) I don’t think Reed made this difference on his own – I think it’s just a combination of Reed + expected regression to the mean. I’d absolutely love to add an elite defensive LF, but we didn’t see any of those freely available on the market, so we went for the offensive bargain who doesn’t look like a defensive disaster. The defense as a group looks somewhere around average, and possibly a little better. And that’s something.
(2) McPherson would be cooler if he weren’t constantly injured. Off the top of my head, I’d be looking for something like .230/.330/.460 out of Branyan, with room for more power. And Ensberg would hang around to chip in an OPS of .800-.850 against lefties. Nothing extraordinary from either of them, but it’s productivity for free, and it’s a huge step up from what we have right now (obviously).
(3) I’m not convinced that Nelson Cruz is a better bet than Juan Rivera, but if you are, it’s pretty easy to swap one for the other – the idea here is just adding a decent corner OF for nothing, and Rivera was the one free agent that fit the bill. And if you have enough confidence in Wlad to produce while playing a few times a week, then all of a sudden you don’t have to worry about Cruz/Rivera/whoever playing every day.
(These aren’t the most enlightening answers, but I’m in a rush.)
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still say if the Mets go into panic mode
Chavez could be a neat little pickup.
by JI on Jul 10, 2008 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
1 American dollar huh?
you’re that confident?
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Branyan can nominally play 3b
Granted, his idea of playing 3b is standing there, and trying not to trip over his feet.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jul 10, 2008 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, that's my point
He’s 3b eligible in many fantasy leagues, but like Miggy Cabrera, it’s not a good idea to actually pencil him in to the line-up there.
Given his…struggles at 3b, I’m not totally convinced he’d be average, even with a move down the defensive spectrum. Not as bad, maybe, but as you can probably imagine, I’m sick of below average D at 1b.
by marc w on Jul 10, 2008 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait I thought we were going to try to sign Burnett AND Sheets
by Graham on Jul 10, 2008 9:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I decided to stay conservative
but, yeah, room could be made.
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burnett AND Sheets?
AND Strasburg?
How awesome would that be?
With Putz healthy, we would only need Felix/Bedard/Sheets/Burnett/Strasburg to go 7 innings, because the 8th and 9th would be automatic.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is why I decided to stay conservative
I am intimidated by fantasy.
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But with that rotation there wouldn't be a chance for Morrow
Unless it was a 6 man rotation…
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on Jul 10, 2008 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
...Dear God that rotation would be made of so much awesome.
by BrianL on Jul 10, 2008 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way.
Bedard, Burnett, and Sheets are each injured about… 25% of the time. So the chances that at least one of them is injured is only… 57.8%
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the closet I've ever come to an IM moment.
See what JI started by dropping the periods?
by JI on Jul 11, 2008 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
You guys aren’t scared off by the general idea that free agent pitching contracts are almost always a bad idea in the long run?
Sure, you can stamp on the usual caveats - “if he signs for a reasonable number of years” - but when the actual GMs get the money in their pockets, the pitching contracts always get crazy, and you always have to overpay.
Just curious about the philosophy behind throwing even more of the budget pie at free agent starters.
by busplunger on Jul 10, 2008 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We're better at evaluating which pitchers are good than most front offices
by Graham on Jul 10, 2008 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure every GM (armchair or otherwise)
is sure that the guy he signed is the one that’s going to stay healthy, effective, etc.
But pitchers are pitchers. Stuff happens.
by busplunger on Jul 10, 2008 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball players are baseball players. Stuff happens.
by Graham on Jul 10, 2008 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And we let em off the hook
If you want to crown them, then crown their ass.
by Gomez on Jul 10, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, for a moment...
Let’s assume hitters and pitchers are equally volatile. Even so, I’m curious about putting all the big money into the rotation, considering position players have more impact on the game (since they play defense).
Was this more a function of “no big hitters available, therefore spend the money on pitchers”, or more of a philosophy towards a dominant pitching staff?
by busplunger on Jul 10, 2008 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm going to guess...
Burnett is undervalued, so sign him if possible.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trust us, in an ideal world we don't build around the rotation
but our roster and the market didn’t leave us much choice, so we made the ~best out of what was available.
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm also going to guess that
this isn’t a “how to make us awesome as possible” in 09 post, but rather what is realistic, and what doesn’t have too much risk, and what could be something that is good, but doesn’t cripple us and leave us something to build on for 2010 and 2011.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
Since you’re not considering trades, I guess you’re stuck shopping for whatever’s on the shelf.
by busplunger on Jul 10, 2008 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We might take the no-trade gloves off for the next roster-building attempt
by Graham on Jul 10, 2008 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you'll have to forgive me
If the proposed solution to this year’s roster begins with “let’s throw even more money at starting pitchers!”
It just makes me cringe a tiny bit, regardless of the actual names involved. :-)
by busplunger on Jul 10, 2008 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not really the solution
The solution to this year’s problems is upgrading the defence. The pitching is just how was can improve.
And we’re not advocating stupid money to the Silvas, Washburns, and Batistas of the world.
by Graham on Jul 10, 2008 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Makes me cringe a little too
but the built-in constraints just didn’t offer us much in the way of flexibility.
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Needs are at LF, DH, 1B.
The only real impact player there is Mark Teixeira (and I guess Bobby Abreu), and for cost per production you’re better off going with one of the pitchers who isn’t Sabathia.
If we had a need at CF and, say, Grady Sizemore was going into free agency we’d be all over that one.
by Graham on Jul 10, 2008 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We've been armchairing this for a few years now
We don’t claim to be perfect, just better than most.
by Matthew on Jul 10, 2008 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm to the point where I'm okay with overpaying in money
We can afford that.
by Jeff on Jul 10, 2008 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone else surprised this thread isn't 500 comments by now?
I know it’s early, but for some of the crap that gets put into off-topicness in the other threads that make them 300+ comments, you’d think this one, about the most awesome topic of all, rosterbating, would having 500 comments already.
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 9:57 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's a random question.
I know Nick Lachey bought, or partially bought the Rainiers last year. If you buy a minor league team, what can you do with it? And how much would it cost to buy the Everett team?
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have little control over personal decisions
One of the reason why the organization lost San Antonio was the fact that our over aggressive promotion philosophy made it hard for the fans to identify with the players and thus cost them fan support.
by Robert on Jul 10, 2008 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you even hire the team's manager (or grounds crew for that matter)?
Or basically all you can do is make fan days at the stadium, and set up side shows for a more “family friendly atmosphere”?
by LantermanC on Jul 10, 2008 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are in charge of Day of Game preparation and staff.
Meaning everything except baseball operations. Its the same as on the major league level.
by Robert on Jul 10, 2008 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Part of me is hoping that Jeff/Matthew/Graham writes a wonderful Sexson retrospective post.
I have a feeling it would be LL HOF worthy. Perhaps something like the famous Hendu Tribute thread?
by BrianL on Jul 10, 2008 11:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It seems like Jeff is avoiding the elephant in the room.
Who would you have for the new Manager? Probably the most important part of making a newly built team function properly on a day to day basis. The same with the picking of a new General Manager that will make wise decisions to acquire any of the players you have discussed.
by 44FAN on Jul 10, 2008 12:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It is almost entirely irrelevant who the manager is
as long as he’s not a complete idiot, we’re fine. Managers can have a much greater negative effect than positive effect, and it’s not that hard to find a guy who will figure out platoons correctly and write Ichiro and Loafie’s names at the top of a lineup card.
by seattlebruin on Jul 10, 2008 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess having an ineffective manager for so long would make you all feel that way.
I still think it is very important having a competent manager to make the wise decisions and lead the team in the right direction.
by 44FAN on Jul 10, 2008 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think there is a manager out there that won't cause LL or the blogosphere to think he is a complete idiot
We rip into managers and their abilities almost every single time they make a personnel move we disagree with.
by Gomez on Jul 10, 2008 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Francona, Atca, LaRussa,
There are some that aren’t retarded.
by JI on Jul 10, 2008 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm going for this mysterious elephant in the room, myself
because it’d be funny to see an elephant manage a baseball team.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on Jul 10, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice Post
This is a great post, guys.
I really love the idea of Rivera especially. I have thought that he would be a great addition as a DH candidate all year. I am not sure how he is defensively, though, since he hardly plays. Looks like he will get a lot more PT over the course of the year, so he could end up being a far lesser value if he goes off.
One note on AJ Burnett: I like this idea as well, and was pretty much hellbent on getting him a few seasons ago. However, it really seems like he is one of those guys that is completely set on living on the east coast. Some players are very rigid on their geographical preferences, and he seems to be that type of guy. I would definitely pursue that option, but Sheets might be more likley.
One thing I don’t agree with is Ibanez. He could net the M’s Type A compensation, which makes other options more tempting. As a DH, his hitting is very mediocre, and he is well past his prime. If they can get two draft picks for him, or even one, I would move on.
by Jerry on Jul 10, 2008 6:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
the problem is
Raul could stand to make more in arb then he could on the market.
by JI on Jul 10, 2008 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other Options....
Other players who I think would be great low-cost, high upside additions:
Via free agency:
-Jason Giambi: depends on the price, but he is hitting really well. He would cost more than Ibanez, but he walks a ton and has a lot more power. Plus, he has peripheral benefits in being a very good clubhouse guy, which isn’t a major consideration, but is still a plus.
-Rafael Furcal: after a great start to the season, he got injured and won’t be back until the end of the year. When healthy, he is a very good defensive SS who can get one base, steal 30 bases, and provide some pop. He would go a long way towards helping to solve the M’s problem with OBP from their infield, while vastly improving the defense. And since he is injured, his value won’t be high, and he isn’t likely to cost a draft pick.
-Freddy Garcia: his health is a big issue. But he is only 32, and if he is healthy, he is an excellent #3 starter. He could be cheap. Plus, he is Felix’s idol, and we all want to keep Felix happy.
-Milton Bradley: I know that he could be very pricey, as he is in the midst of a monster year. But I have always loved this guy. He gets on base, has power, and is a plus defender at either outfield corner. He is playing over his head right now, and could finish with lower numbers than he currently is producing. Plus, his reputation could bring his price tag down a bit. This is one of those “if the price is right” moves. However, he would be a fantastic addition.
-OIiver Perez: Huge upside move. He will most likley be cheap, and is inconsistent as hell. But he has a great arm, is still young, and has shown plenty of flashes of brilliance. Low-cost, high-upside.
Trade Candidates:
Nick Johnson and Austin Kearns, Nationals: Both players are major injury question marks, and both are having terrible years. Kearns would be a better addition, as he isn’t quite as injury prone. Both a plus defenders, and both are good hitters. If Johnson is healthy, he could be the on-base machine that the team has lacked since Edgar faded. Both could be available since the Nats are rebuilding.
by Jerry on Jul 10, 2008 6:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Giambi will probably get a three year deal
Bradley will also get a huge contract
Both are pretty fragile. I wouldn’t buy unless we were a player away.
by JI on Jul 10, 2008 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If this was 2007 then yes, Milton Bradley and Jason Giambi might be "low-cost".
It’s not and they won’t be. Not even close.
Oliver Perez isn’t a huge upside move. He can’t throw strikes and when he does, he’s not missing bats anymore. Unless he’s coming on a minor league deal he’s not worth it.
by Matthew on Jul 10, 2008 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I question whether or not this team could contend.
If Morrow becomes the #2 starter I think he’s capable of becoming, the rotation will be strong, but injury prone. When healthy, Felix, Bedard, Sheets, and Burnett are all 1s/2s and Silva’s certainly a fine (but expensive) 5, which is what he would be regardless of what the Mariners called him. But what happens when Bedard and Burnett/Sheets go down. Felix, Morrow, Silva, RRS, Dickey (please no more Batista starts) is a little less impressive. Plus, they’ll probably keep Morrow’s innings pretty low in his first year as a starter.
And the hitting though much deeper and way more left handed (which I love by the way) is still pretty mediocre. What’s the lineup?
rf Ichiro
2b Lopez
dh Ibanez
3b Beltre
1b Branyan
lf Rivera
c Clement
cf Reed
ss Betancourt
Actually, that doesn’t look too bad. We don’t have any guys that’ll really strike fear into the hearts of opposing pitchers, but our 3-7 hitters are all above average with Clement and Rivera having a shot at being better than that even. It’d be nice if we could find someone other than Lopez to bat second, but none of those guys really fit into the number two slot well. The defense is pretty weak though. Betancourt, Lopez, and Branyan will let a lot of balls through.
by DAMellen on Jul 10, 2008 10:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Seems this roster has no depth
which is the sort of thing the Angels used this year to bury the rest of this division.
by johnbai on Jul 11, 2008 1:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Um... your mom has no depth perception!
Seriously… fielding a team with several injury prone players, and not having good depth to cover those injuries when the inevitably appear, seems like a recipe for fail.
By depth, I mean that when the Angels got zip out of Sarge Jr. they can plug in Juan Rivera because he’s just sitting around “creating depth”. You’re looking at him as a major contributor, but what happens if/when he sucks/get’s hurt. I think one of the reasons teams like Boston and the Angels do well is that they’re stocked. Lackey and Escobar get hurt, no problem. Ortiz gets hurt, Bosox are still winning ballgames.
by johnbai on Jul 11, 2008 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do agree with you, by the way.
The depth (outside of corner OF, thanks to Wlad) sucks. But there’s not really anything we can do about that. I can’t click my heels together twice and say “give us good AAA prospects” and make it happen. Unfortunately this team will need a year or three to get the upper levels of the system replenished; this is just an example of how we could keep the big league team somewhat competitive while that process is taking place.
by Jeff on Jul 11, 2008 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
speaking of depth
Minnesota should be getting Liriano back soon. He’s destroying AAA, and he’d really help the Twinkies scoot past the Chisox.
BTW, I agree with your suggestions… I just don’t think it’s likely to be a contender unless we have a remarkably injury-free year.
Just losing JJ this year feels like it’s cost us about 7-10 games.
by johnbai on Jul 11, 2008 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope JJ comeback healthy because I would like to see what we could get for him.
See what JI started by dropping the periods?
by JI on Jul 11, 2008 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we're in agreement.
This team would still need some luck, but operating under the constraint of “do no harm to the future” this is a way to make contention at least possible in 2009
by Matthew on Jul 11, 2008 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You might be onto something
You know what? I think that I am coming around to your POV Jeff. I was pretty hardcore in the ‘firesale’ camp, but the M’s could focus on incremental improvement while not fucking up the future, and still have a decent shot to contend in 2009.
Regarding the question of depth, that is something that can be addressed starting right now. If the M’s deal guys like Betancourt, Washburn, Rhodes, and/or other spare parts that are not integral for the future, they could bring in guys to fill a lot of the holes you mentioned above, like 4th OF, utility IF, and a bench bat.
The deadline could also be a good time to look for a good bat at DH and 1B. There are lots of blocked players or AAAA types who could be available, and get an extended audition for the remainder of the season. Someone like Jeff Larish, Chris Carter, Adam Lind, or Joe Koshansky. There are literally dozens of guys you could add to this list.
The M’s currently have Vidro and Cairo at DH and 1B. They can afford to take a shot at a guy who might be available on the cheap, and see what happens. If they get lucky, they could find a starter. If not, they could end up with a good bench bat.
by Jerry on Jul 11, 2008 6:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Quick Question?
Would you guys rather see the proposed roster here and most likely finish out of the playoffs, or see a complete rebuild, and be ready to win 90+ games in 3 or 4 years through careful rebuilding?
I AM THOR, GOD OF THUNDER. BOW TO MY WILL AND MY HAMMER!
by anaheim angels on Jul 12, 2008 1:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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