Art Thiel Is On The Trolley
by Jeff Sullivan on Jun 6, 2008 9:18 AM PDT
in Miscellaneous
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PrintLink passed on by Jed MC:
LET'S GET TO the key point: It's time for a change at the top of the Mariners organization.
The board of directors needs to replace Howard Lincoln as chairman and CEO and advance Chris Larson, the owner of the second-largest share, to franchise leadership.
...
Obviously, Lincoln is not walking the opponent's No. 9 hitter, nor letting grounders skip under his glove. But he and president Chuck Armstrong put in charge the baseball people, principally general manager Bill Bavasi, who created a personnel impasse from which there is no getting around this year.
(and so on and so forth)
The sooner the bloodbath begins, the sooner the bodies may enrich the soil with the nutrients needed to develop new life. It's science.
The Mariners are in the unusual position in which they need to rebuild more thoroughly at the top than at the bottom. This team isn't that many pieces away from being a contender again, but I think I speak for all of us when I say that I don't have the slightest amount of confidence in the suits we have to go get those pieces, and so finding new suits seems a necessary prerequisite to sustained, substantial success.
Do it. Do it now. It might be our only hope.
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I just clicked over here to post this story
Guess I was beat to it. Kind of shocking that someone like Thiel is actually calling for the brass to be fired. Not that it isn’t totally deserved, just didn’t think you’d see a mainstream writer take that position.
the other angels fan
This collaspe has to be more devistating to people who thought this was a good team.
by JI on Jun 6, 2008 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm in the boat of "this team can't possibly be as bad as the record indicates"
but given what they’re on pace for, that’s not saying much.
We should realistically see
Ichiro, Felix, Bedard, Betre, and Putz all play better.
by JI on Jun 6, 2008 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Thw board of directors
But here’s the problem: the team is a cash cow even with a half empty Safeco. How do you convince the Board that these guys are bad at making them money? By telling them the team is bad? It’s established they couldn’t care less about the product on the field as long as people keep giving them money.
They probably don’t make a change until the team’s been losing for years and they’re drawing Expos crowds, to where it has a clear effect on profit margins.
Which goes back to the dilemma
Why would they bother? Why would they care how the braintrust runs the team as long as the team makes them a ton of money anyway?
And it seems they'll never draw Expos crowds
during the week, with crap weather, they draw 15-20K. Then, as reliably as there’s a Starbucks on that corner there, 34K show up on a Friday night or a Saturday night. At this point this town deserves the team it gets. STOP SHOWING UP, PEOPLE.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on Jun 6, 2008 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions
You make a clear presentation to them that a winning team = more money.
These are all businessmen and I’d suspect good ones at that else they wouldn’t be where they are. Businessmen are trained to ferret out bad investments. If someone cannot convince them that paying $120 million in payroll for a shitty team equals a misused investment then that person couldn’t sell free gas.
So another question: who goes and talks to them about this?
These aren’t the most accessible people.
A newswriter wrote an op-ed column
So what to them?
You need to be more direct to reach such people.
Like what though?
organize a walk out or something that they still won’t care about
And that's the point
Changing things is far, far easier said than done, and those who can just don’t see a need.
A boardmember? Any one of the owners/investors?
There are many people who can and they should ALL be concerned about it.
So why weren't they before?
Attendance has been dropping for years. The same people still run the team.
Maybe they could tell that the team was going to have to rebuild.
Maybe they didn’t care.
Maybe they have been discussing it.
Maybe maybe maybe.
We don’t know. We can’t know. However, logic says that usually, businesses don’t see their revenues drop continuously and do nothing.
Yet
The team have turned a significant profit even during the down years. Has there been a significant enough drop in said profit for the Board to consider a change?
I can't remember who knew who does
But from any information I’ve ever heard, they turned a significant profit as recently as the last couple years.
+..er...yes this is right I concur.
Not to mention I feel that they will act after they clearly see a hit coming to their profits, as opposed to waiting when the writing is on the wall.
I agree,
I mean the owners have to notice that since Bavasi came to Seattle that our average attendance for every game has gone down somewhere around 13,000 people.
Well, it clearly has not made a difference
attendance has dropped every year, and nothing’s been done. Why would they start now? OWNERSHIP DOES NOT CARE. They make money either way.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on Jun 6, 2008 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions
They make far less money now than when they were winning.
They will almost surely notice that. And they will also surely notice bad press. Bad press influences the public and runs counter to the team’s marketing attempts. It’s basic business practices that I would be shocked if all of these people didn’t understand.
I don't think understanding the problem is their issue
I think acting on that understanding is their issue. They seem to be (and I have no insight here, just purely guessing) completely unwilling to try something new in case it is even less “successful” than what they’re doing now. They’re choosing inertia to protect their current revenue stream, because they know now that it won’t get much less because people still show up.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
Lincoln is reportedly
one of the best businessmen around for all he did with Nintendo and now the Mariners making them profitable…. making a change has to be a philosophical thing rather then a money making venture, as the board is likely focused first on their return on investment, product on the field only comes second to value of the investment. You can argue that increasing the product on the field will increase the investment value, but at what cost? Those financials are the thing the board has to determine.
You can bring on a new head man to change up the philosophy, but there are no guarantee’s that this will suddenly then become a consistent top notch team. You’re still competing against 4 other teams in the division that aren’t going to roll over and die, and one of them has arguably the best GM in baseball.
The board of directors would be foolish to assume that a change in CEO would make this team and perennial contender, baseball just isn’t like that, especially considering Seattle’s market location.
Midnight Baseball - No Lights - Only in Alaska!
At what cost?
“You can argue that increasing the product on the field will increase the investment value, but at what cost? “
I don’t think anyone’s saying that the board needs to put people in charge who will spend more. Their payroll is fine.
To me, it seems patently obvious that you make the case that the current level of operating expenditures is sufficient, but are being horribly mismanaged.
I understand that the club is making money right now; that’s got a lot more to do with FSN than it does with the current roster. But ANY business people can probably work out why challenging a record for most losses with a $100m payroll is a bad thing. ANY businessman would understand that the growing complaints from beat writers to national talking heads to, yes, even fans that the club is poorly run WILL impact the bottom line (eventually).
You’re right that they can’t assume a change in CEO would make the team great just like that, but I’ve got to believe there are people on the board who understand that the team really should be better, year in and year out. That the current president’s support for everyone but the players isn’t exactly confidence-inspiring.
Its not about the payroll on the baseball on the field
when I say at what cost, the CEO is in charge of everything Mariner related, TV Contracts, marketing, business personnel, everything related to the Mariners, making a change at the top to increase the product on the field could cost alot down the road depending on alot of different factors that a CEO is responsible for and the people in the organization that are loyal to him.
I’m by no means advocating for Lincoln, I’m just saying its not as simple as firing him and replacing him with someone else that is going to mean the revenue stream stays exactly the same or even increases, alot of times when the top dog in a business who is making money is let go, people bail, you have to start from scratch contracts have to be renegotiated, and positions have to be changed and filled, assuming letting Lincoln go won’t impact the financials of the company negatively in the short term, is looking at it strictly from a baseball performance and not from a business standpoint. Investors have millions and millions tied into the Mariners changing the lead man when he’s generating profits and keeping the investman value up is second to the performance on the field.
Midnight Baseball - No Lights - Only in Alaska!
by MfaninAlaska on Jun 6, 2008 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
You're right, it's not that simple
But the Board has to be concerned that the team’s crap performance – and the sheer distance in time since 2001 – will impact everything that generates revenue.
You mentioned TV contracts – so far, that’s been the bulwark of their revenue. They re-upped and made a ton of money a few years back, and the deal is nominally 10 years. The Board must make sure they’re in a solid negotiating position if/when they want to renew. Another year or two like this, and it becomes painfully obvious that they’d be in a terrible negotiating position.
The marketing likewise has been great, both to locals and in Japan. But the brass has to see that Ichiro’s not the novelty that he once was; the M’s compete with Boston, NY and Chicago now. The locals still love the team, but a few years of steady bad press, and all the marketing in the world can’t stop the decline.
I’d actually argue that the M’s are an incredibly well-run org from most standpoints BESIDES the on-field product. That’s been enough for a long time, and I understand some of the inertia from the board. I’m just hoping that the forward-thinking among them realize you can’t count on it forever; at some point, a monumentally poorly-run baseball team hurts everything for a baseball corporation. You’re right that the investment value has not fallen in the way performance has. But I don’t think I’d want to bet on that indefinitely.
Hmm
Lincoln runs the Mariners like he runs Nintendo?
Over reliance on veterans (established game franchises).
Unwillingness to develop new players (new IP)
Staunch refusal to admit they’re wrong (Nintendo’s attitude towards third party developers for like 15 years now, the Gamecube, Online gaming)
Quick easy fixes instead of long term over hauls (oh look the Gameboy/Cube/DS is available in a shiny new color! Lack of software? What lack of software?)
Stupidly devoted fan base ignores improvements made other teams (other companies) and insists they have the best product around.
Relies heavily on nostalgia when in trouble Mario/Ken Griffey Jr.
Hm….
Yeah I have no hope for this team getting better.
The poster formerly known as Matt.
So... fifteen rounds in
and the Mariners have picked two high school players
Apparently at this point they're drafting for org need
With so many top prospects in the low minors, they want to fill in undesirable levels like High Desert to give them options with said prospects.
Of course naturally, won't a lot of these players end up needing to starting in WI anyway
and given how aggressive the team has been with promotions, could we see Aumont/Ramirez/Pineda in HD or maybe even WT sooner rather than later?
by seattlebruin on Jun 6, 2008 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Most will ride out the year in Peoria or Everett
That said, some will start out in Wisconsin and we may see one of the top prospects get promoted to High Desert.
At this point, drafting high school players
probably isn’t a good idea – they wouldn’t sign.
Draft Coverage For You
Round 7: Nathaniel Tenbrink (3B KSU)
Round 8: Roberto LaFromboise (LHP UNM)
Round 9: Kyle Thebeau (RHP TEX AM)
Round 10: Nate Newman (RHP PEPPERDINE)
Round 11: Matt Jensen (2B HS)
Round 12: Kenn Kasparek (RHP UT AUSTIN)
Round 13: Ryan Royster (CF UC DAVIS)
Round 14: Luke Burnett (RHP LA TECH)
Round 15: Jacob Shaffer (CF N KENT U)
Interesting.
Whoa, Luke Burnett (14th rd) is listed at 6-8, 260
by seattlebruin on Jun 6, 2008 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Hey look the Rays just drafed RHP from Berkeley
They’re trying to emulate us!
by seattlebruin on Jun 6, 2008 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions
In the 16th round, I'm going out on a limb
and predicting the M’s draft a college RHP from a non-BCS school.
by seattlebruin on Jun 6, 2008 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
All-Star voting is depressing me.
Loafie isn’t even in the top five at second, and Robinson Cano, who is hitting .222/.267/.326 is second.
Also Coco Crisp, who doesn’t start for Boston is 13th in the OF. Melky Cabrera is 7th.
Not that voting really indicates who’s having a good season, but that’s still really frustrating to see such undeserving players get massive piles of votes
Chris Larson
I thought the article did well to highlight Chris Larson, the reclusive former Microsoft billionaire who is one of the local investors in the team. There are a couple of sites on the internets that describe Larson as an avid baseball fan who also reads baseball economics books.
Given that he seems to be a genius, I’m sure he is aware of sabermetrics and reads USSMariner. This man appears to be our only hope.
those are the only qualifications for geniushood?
Damn. I’ve been a genius all this time and I never knew it.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
I was referring to him being one of the 4 guys that started Microsoft.
by wobbly wobbly on Jun 6, 2008 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh, yeah, that
I was sick that day or I’d be one of those too. Or something.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
Wow that's almost as bad as winning the Nigerian national lottery
and forgetting to tell them your address.
How will you ever get your check?
by seattlebruin on Jun 6, 2008 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
I sent them all my bank account info and SSN
so my share of the Nigerian lottery money should be here any day now.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
I have a friend who did that too
but he didn’t send them his account routing number and didn’t get his money. What a dumbass!
by seattlebruin on Jun 6, 2008 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Go read "Getting Screwed in the Genetic Lottery (but at least my brother got me drafted)"
by Jeremy Beckham
our no 9 hitter
I wish our number 9 hitter walked occasionally. There was a news story on it the last time he did.
That's funny
I have a longtime friend my age named Jeff Turner.
The real Jeff Turner (in this instance) was a meh journeyman power forward (and I use the term ‘power’ somewhat tongue in cheek).
This is an all-time top five quote
“(The situation was) all brought on by an online dating thing. Craigslist. I lied to her. Does that mean I can go out there and represent the Sonics? No. Does that mean that I did it to get some (sex)? Absolutely.“
Usually you at least TRY to pretend like you had other motives
by seattlebruin on Jun 6, 2008 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Someday I just want to take one of those bums and tell him I won't give him beer money
but I’ll buy him a bottle of Popov’s if drinks straight from the bottle.
by seattlebruin on Jun 6, 2008 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Just to try and keep this thread on topic
There’s now a day two draft diary here
Apparently Chris Larson worked on getting a Hockey team in Seattle
I love this man almost as much as I love Paul Allen
Chris Larson gave Red and I Diamond Club tickets for next Friday
by Jeff Sullivan on Jun 6, 2008 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I was wondering who gave you two those
I assumed it was just a publicity stunt. Cool to know its not.
I would love it if Seattle got an NHL team.
Seriously, WTF are teams doing in Nashville and Phoenix and not Seattle.
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