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Stats VS No Stats

I have been a reader of Lookout Landing for some time.  I have posted in the past but I don't usually say anything because I feel like the new guy at high school who sees the group of kids he wants to be a part of but is just to shy to join in.

 I want to make a comment though about some of the arguements I have seen about sabremetrics.  This is not just in response to posts in the last few days or just on this site but from everything I have been reading. 

To me there are no bad statistics.  I believe that stats keep getting better and more descriptive.  I know people hate ERA but I can look at ERA and know that Batista sucks.  I also know there are better ways to describe his suckiness with more modern statistical analysis. 

I also believe in scouting and knowing everything you can about a player outside of the stats.  I think you better understand not only that a player is succesful but why?

In the end it seems that you have to have a marriage of the stats and non stats evaluation of any player to come to the best conclusion possible.  Thats why I do not understand why people are so against modern statistical analysis.  In the end it's just more information to help you make a better decision.

I have more thoughts on this but I don't want to go on to long (too late?).  I just want to thank Jeff for giving me some reason to read about the game from the night before and Matthew and Gomez for all there efforts to make me a smarter fan.

 

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I don't think anyone here has ever lobbied to completely do away with traditional scouting.

I think the best results can be obtained by using a blend of both statistical analysis and down-and-dirty scout analysis. Boston probably does this the best. Really though, not using either tool does your ballclub a great disservice. In my mind, sabermetrics helps narrow down an enormous pool of player candidates. Scouting helps to make the final decision.

As for why people are so slow or so afraid to adopt statistical analysis, you also have to realize that this is a sport that is notoriously slow to change, both in on the field strategy and front office player evaluation. Branch Rickey wrote up an interesting article on this very problem years ago. Some people simply balk at the idea that a player’s performance can be expressed in numbers. Some refuse to let go of “intangibles.”

There are some bad stats, though. Wins and saves being the worst culprits in my mind. There are some stats that can be misleading, such as BA and ERA. One flukey season’s ERA landed Jarrod Washburn a 4 year contract. Jose Vidro’s BA last season masked his glaring flaws as a hitter, which we’re seeing now.

by BrianL on Jun 27, 2008 8:45 AM PDT reply actions  

My comments where meant mostly for the sabre haters.

It seems like there are fans out there that just hate the modern stats and I don’t get it. Of course they are probably afraid of microwaves also.

To me stats are bad when they are used as a stand alone to prove a point. You pointed out some great examples.

those really are my initials

by BS Nelly on Jun 27, 2008 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Some people are afraid of it, some people just don't understand it.

In a lot of people’s minds, sabermetrics only preaches two things: walks and home runs. I call this the Hendu Fallacy and was one of the glaring weaknesses of Moneyball. It’s been so readily dismissed by so many Old Boys Club baseball personalities that a lot of fans haven’t given statistical analysis the credit it deserves.

by BrianL on Jun 27, 2008 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Why use bad stats like ERA when better stats are easily available?

Using a bad stat will lead to bad analysis, so you’d be better off ingoring the bad stat and finding a good one. I know ERA is the only thing in the newspaper, but if you are on the web you can just as easily find something better just as quickly. In fact, if you are a regular LL reader, just click on some of the reference links and you’ll find all sorts of valuable stats.

If you aren’t sure which ones are good, just ask. People here are pretty helpful when you ask nicely and are obviously trying to increase your knowledge.

by Jed MC on Jun 27, 2008 8:55 AM PDT reply actions  

what if you want to look at a team's run prevention over one season

with a certain starter on the mound? ERA is perfect.

the artist formerly known as Mere Tantalisers.

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jun 27, 2008 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

No it isn't.

It ignores unearned runs. Furthermore, even RA incorporates luck and the ballpark. If you want the historical value, yeah, you want RA. But if you want a useful number to judge against, you need BaseRuns or something similar.

by Matthew on Jun 27, 2008 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Matthew, let me ask you something.

Is there a way to analysis what batting order would be the most effect for a team? Taking all position players into account and what order they bat in.

those really are my initials

by BS Nelly on Jun 27, 2008 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

Check out "The Book: Playing the Percentages in Baseball"

That among many other things is covered in it and its a fantastic read for anyone interested in statistical analysis.

by Fett42 on Jun 27, 2008 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Second this.

But general rule of thumb: Go from best to worst.

Order by decreasing OBP. Break close ties by giving precedence to higher SLG%

by Matthew on Jun 27, 2008 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

Alternate L/R is possible

good speed is useful at the bottom of the order.

Your going to have to modify the rules deending on the players you have of players, but this is usually the gist of it.

Typically, this is how I would order a team:

1. Best combination of OBP and speed, leaning much more heavily on OBP skills. Contrary to some popular sabre belief it think it’s a bad idea to hit your best hitter first unless you best hitter has the skill set of Ichiro or Rickey Henderson. I think it’s a very bad idea to have your best guy come up with the 8, 9 hitters batting in front of him unless your batting order totally kicks ass 1-9.

2-4

Contrary to traditional belief, power is much desired skill for a #2 hitter. Take the next three best hitters, assuming none of them are cripplingly slow, put the guy in this group with the combination of high OBP and least great power 2nd, the best overall guy third, and the guy with the lowest OBP fourth. Typically you’ll end up with a patient hitter in the three spot, and bit more of a hacker hitting clean up.

5-6-7

Stack your remaining three best hitters accordingly, bonus points for speed in the 6-7 spots.

8-9

this is the spot your worst position player, then the pitcher. If your 7-8 hitters are both god awful but one of them has good speed, it may be helpful, to hit the pitcher 8th and the speedy guy 9th. That way the speedy guy hits in front of the lead of the (likely) low homer output leadoff hitter, and you don’t have to worry about the pitcher killing an abnormal amount of rallies.

If for some reason you use a DH and your worst two hitters a big lumbering tub of goo (we’ll call him “Molina,), and the other hitter is a punchless speedy little flea (we’ll call him “Cesar”) bat Cesar ninth on the off chance that should one of these out machines acutally reach base, the speedy guy will closer in the order to your XBH hitters.

Give you're propers to the all time rec leader.

by JI on Jun 27, 2008 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the responses.

So if I simplify things by using Matthew’s rule this would be Seattle’s best lineup.
Bloomquist LF
Reed CF
Ichiro RF
Ibanez DH
Beltre 3B
Lopez 2B
Sexson 1B
Betancourt SS
Clement C

those really are my initials

by BS Nelly on Jun 27, 2008 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

*stack by expected OBP

The problem with this lineup is that all our RHB have meh to shitty OBP talent, while the lefties (minus Vidro) are ok to good. It’ makes it very hard to put together a lineup with so much platoon disparity—yet another reason why this team sucks.

Give you're propers to the all time rec leader.

by JI on Jun 27, 2008 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's one reason I like this site.

People are more then willing to help if you are sincere.

those really are my initials

by BS Nelly on Jun 27, 2008 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Pretty much all serious stats guys

will agree with you. ERA is a useful stat if you’re honest about what it represents, but the reason it is so maligned is that it is one of the most misused statistics.

Another major issue sabr-folk have with traditional analysis is the constant use of small samples, ie “Jose Vidro hits pitcher x well; he’s 7 for 18 with two doubles off him”.
Jacques Bernoulli wrote in 1713 that “even the stupidest of men, by some instinct of nature, is convinced on his own that with more observations his risk of failure is diminished.” Sadly, men seem to have gotten somewhat stupider in the last 300 years, at least when it comes to Ars conjectandi.

the artist formerly known as Mere Tantalisers.

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jun 27, 2008 8:58 AM PDT reply actions  

If there is one thing I've learned here it is sample size is important.

And what I was trying to say, which you just said, is that you have to understand what the stat is telling you.

those really are my initials

by BS Nelly on Jun 27, 2008 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think of ERA as kind of an observational stat.

A low ERA over a good size means good things happen when that particular pitcher is on the mound. A high ERA indicates the reverse.

It’s when evaluating pitching talent that ERA becomes unreliable and can really be misleading. For example, ERA was the driving force behind Bavasi’s decision to sign Jarrod Washburn to a 4-year $37.5 Million deal. He posted a shiny 3.20 ERA in 2005 as an LA Angel. What ERA doesn’t tell you is what the performance was based on. One of the biggest aids to his ERA is that he had a ridiculously high LOB% (runners left on base) of 81.8% (his career norm is about 70%). He has no control of how many runners he leaves on base. Sure enough, once we picked him up, his LOB% returned to Earth and his ERA blew back up.

Then again, I’m no where near as technically sound as some folks here when it comes to statistics but it’s good to know what tools are out there and really puts things to perspective.

by ThundaPC on Jun 27, 2008 10:14 AM PDT reply actions  

People are afraid of automation

losing your job to a robot, or a pitch tracker machine, is tough. Umpires and scouts are scared that their jobs are going to change radically; they are going to lose influence, prestige and salary. Scouts and various other insiders perceive modern statistical analysis (correctly) as a threat to their livlihood. Of course they hate it.

Then there’s a second tier of fans… often older fans… that resist changing the way they know and love the game. They love BA, ERA, Wins, etc. That’s a language they speak. They know what a 2.42 ERA means, but they have no idea what a 141 ERA+ means. There’s a certain age where most people don’t really want to learn new things.

Some fans also balk because they don’t really want to break the game down into numbers. They avoid more descriptive stats because they don’t want to imagine their game as a formula. To do so would poison their enjoyment of the game. For them it’s like this ad for iPhone by David Lynch… except replace “movie” with “baseball” and replace “phone” with “sabermetrics”.

by johnbai on Jun 27, 2008 10:41 AM PDT reply actions  

While it is scary to think of the game being reduced to a formula

In the end that can never happen because there is always a chance Felix will it a GS off of Santana.

those really are my initials

by BS Nelly on Jun 27, 2008 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Except David Lynch is totally right.

The analogy is good, I just thought it was important to point that out.

As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball.

by Aaron Campeau on Jun 27, 2008 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I tried watching MST3K on my mp3 player.

i always ran out of gas after 20 minutes because the screen was too small and my arm would get tired.

Give you're propers to the all time rec leader.

by JI on Jun 27, 2008 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

The scary thing is

A lot of people of this generation wouldn’t even bother watching Lawrence of Arabia, much less watch it on an iPhone, much less see anything wrong with it if they tried it.

*end old man rant

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Jun 27, 2008 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Everyone I know loves that movie and has seen it more than once.

does that mean I’m old?

the artist formerly known as Mere Tantalisers.

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jun 27, 2008 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm 25 and your situation mirrors mine.

I hang around with a bunch of film geeks, though, so my friends aren’t really representative of most people my age.

As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball.

by Aaron Campeau on Jun 27, 2008 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, it means you have friends with taste

and that my sweeping generalization, surprisingly, wasn’t 100% accurate. Those things are usually so reliable!

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Jun 27, 2008 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

All children shout have to watch Lawrence in 75mm at the age of 12.

The world would be a much better place.

As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball.

by Aaron Campeau on Jun 27, 2008 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Jun 27, 2008 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Stats are for nerds

who wear pocket protectors and who get their asses kicked by Joe Morgan for their lunch money.

by chrisisasavage on Jun 28, 2008 12:17 AM PDT reply actions  

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