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Sabermetrics (and people who complain about it)

I was just thinking, does anyone else think the struggle between many bloggers and people like Joe Morgan or sportswriters kinda reminds you of the issue of religion vs. science? on a much smaller and less significant scale, obviously.

Look at the way bloggers like Jeff or Dave or DMZ are treated by casual fans or certain sportswriters. They are constantly written off as if they don't already have a huge following, but sometimes these sportswriters will lash out at them and bloggers like them as if all of the sudden they are a threat. Like fundamentalist christians who don't think that athiests are significant enough to really matter vs. the majority, but get all worked up on the "omg WAR ON CHRISTMAS AND JESUS!". which makes it obvious that they feel threatened and angry at them sometimes.

The way sabermetrics developed also mirrors science vs. religion. At first, it was really only "baseball people" who had been in the game for a long time that could really decide who was good and who wasn't. But now, billy beane and others are proof that there are different ways of evaluating talent that work fine. so you could liken a scout to a priest and a "stathead" to a mathematician or scientist. which would make LL and USSM readers students of the bloggers.

it would also explain the argument between scrappy, hard-working white (sorry, "blue collar") players and "selfish" power hitters who "clog up the basepaths". Just like people who think abstinence is always the key to happiness and alcohol is the devil or sex is evil or whatever can be compared to writers who think that someone like Reggie Willits or Willie Bloomqist is more valuable than someone who isnt so scrappy and wasn't a punter for Nebraska (did you know Darin Erstad punted for Nebraska? how scrappy of him!); those values are simply outdated and not realistic in today's society.

so basically Bill James = Socrates wow that sounds weird but whatever.

kids, never major in Philosophy. it will fuck you up forever.

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*saves page before thread gets out of hand*

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 30, 2008 3:49 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just an ordinary Chalybäusian dialectic

Thesis – antithesis => synthesis..

Often attributed to Hegel, the triad is actually Chalybäus ’ characterization of Hegel’s dialectic.

by Steve Nelson on May 30, 2008 3:51 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is Religion vs. Science really an issue?

I think some people like seeking out controversy when there really isn’t any.

I think this thread qualifies.

by Wilder. on May 30, 2008 3:52 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In most of the country, it is.

See Dover, PA. Kansas school board, etc.

You might check out the Flying Spagetti Monster home page as well. It’s a joke that’s run it’s course, but it’s also updated frequently with news.

by MrIncognito on May 31, 2008 2:28 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My point exactly

Because sabermetrics combined with competent scouting will eventually win.

by Sec 108 on May 30, 2008 4:08 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and really, they're just two methods aiming toward the same goal.

Scouting and sabermetrics, boiled down, are both about trying to measure tools and skills.

by Matthew on May 30, 2008 4:09 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll disagree here

It’s the same debate in that it’s reason vs. intuition. The is no grand debate between science and religion – science is not trying to dictate morality for the most part. However, there are many places where science and religion are at odds, and these debates mirror the scouts vs. stats very closely. Debating evolution with a creationist is almost exactly the same as debating small ball vs. sabermetrics. It’s anecdotes and gut feeling vs. data.

by MrIncognito on May 31, 2008 2:33 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If the anecdotes are truthful,

they are also data. The problem with your attempt to characterise SABR as data, and scouting as non data, is that there’s a LOT of data that is not available to SABR analysts looking from the outside in.

How fast a player is running now, vs how fast he was running a week ago, what his bat speed is now, in a game, in training, vs what it was a week ago, in a game, in training is also data.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jun 2, 2008 10:56 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wrong

Capitalists always win.

Go Fo Broke!

by eknpdx on May 30, 2008 3:58 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Capitalism FTW!!!

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 30, 2008 4:03 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As a Christian blogger

I’m confused. Am I the revolutionary or the establishment? Am I at war with myself? Should I be mad that I’m holding me back?

Or, you know, maybe, these contrived divisions are dumb.

by davidcameron on May 30, 2008 4:01 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Relax Graham. Don't try to take over USSM

in a bloody coup. Watch out, Dave!

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 30, 2008 4:04 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

doesn't matter

you’re the tool of capitalism

Go Fo Broke!

by eknpdx on May 30, 2008 4:07 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

re: "Should I be mad that I’m holding me back?"

Yes.
We’re at war here, Dave. I don’t have time for your nuance or self-reflection.
Pick a damn side, get really mad, and hurl some invective, or I’ll find someone who will.

by marc w on May 30, 2008 4:07 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My arms deal out the PAIN, it's true

Better than you and your…

wait, I thought YOU were the arms dealer….

by marc w on May 30, 2008 4:14 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh damn

I misremembered. At least Dave’s not an ARMS DEALER like ME, MARC?

by Graham on May 30, 2008 4:15 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

vote Jeff/Matthew/Graham

we’ll provide arms as well as girls!

oh wait, wrong thread.

by Matthew on May 30, 2008 4:16 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

NO POLITICS!

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 30, 2008 4:17 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

NO YOU!

This platform endorsed by all parties.

by Matthew on May 30, 2008 4:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was going to bitch at you.

Then I noticed that you’re now making fun of yourself in your sig. So Good on you.

-aaron c.

by acblue on May 30, 2008 4:31 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Stop!

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

by Coach Owens on May 30, 2008 4:51 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do you have a mental disease?

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 30, 2008 4:54 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Graham (or some other Admin, but most likely Graham)

keeps changing my signature.

Graham is [amazingly awesome]!

by Coach Owens on May 30, 2008 4:59 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

See?!

Graham is [amazingly awesome]!

by Coach Owens on May 30, 2008 4:59 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Coach, either your browser is playing tricks on you

or you’ve lost your mind. I’m willing to bet on the latter.

by BrianL on May 30, 2008 5:00 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not seeing anything weird.

Other than the freaky furry picture with the prosthetic-arm lady below this post.

by BrianL on May 30, 2008 4:58 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmm

I suspect that if you were less Coachy, random misfortunes would not rain down upon you with quite so much frequency.

by Graham on May 30, 2008 4:58 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure you guys don't have to be voted for

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 30, 2008 4:37 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thats not really what i meant

obviously theres a gigantic grey area between “science” and “Religion”. in fact, its all grey in my opinion. i guess instead of “religion” i should have specified that only applied to people who are fundamentalist about it.

yea the argument starts to fall apart around that section, but you can still see comparisons.

But i do understand when people say that im just creating false conflict. reading it again i see how im doing that. for the record, im not an athiest; im not really sure what i am yet.

by Karma Police on May 30, 2008 4:34 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're a christian?

I’m never reading your superstitious drivel again!

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on May 30, 2008 10:26 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you're missing a point

There are many places where we debate data vs. tradition. This can be evolution vs. creationism/ID, or small ball vs. sabermetrics. It’s correct to say that there shouldn’t be a debate between scouts and stats, just like there really shouldn’t be a debate between science and religion, but there are certainly plenty of parallels to be drawn. It’s also completely not surprising that you can be a stat-head blogger with Christian principles; humans are capable of resolving much more obvious cognitive dissonance with little trouble (assuming you’re a stat and ID person).

by MrIncognito on May 31, 2008 2:37 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have lots of things to say.

I think it’s better that I don’t say any of them.

-aaron c.

by acblue on May 30, 2008 4:07 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yay!!

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 30, 2008 4:08 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

YIFF!!

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 30, 2008 4:09 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm furring this RecommendPost.

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 30, 2008 4:12 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've said this before and I'll keep saying it

but it really comes down to presentation. Baseball stats folks do stellar work, think about the game in ways most of us never would have thought of 10 years ago, and advance the understanding of baseball better than anybody at any point in the history of the game.

Where the stats folks fall down, sometimes, is in presentation. Data infallibility is great, and I do tend to believe data, but when data is presented with sentences like “any other conclusion is wrong”, or “you’re just not getting it”, people tend to take that as an attack, rather than as an objective truism.

There’s really no divide, there’s just perception, and as the analytical community’s data gets more sophisticated the presentation of that data in a “consumer-friendly” way becomes much more important.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 30, 2008 4:09 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   1 recs

I tried like hell to avoid abandoning an "old-school" mindset.

I was only converted because, in the end, I cannot ignore data and rational thought. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that a large portion of the population is unconcerned with these things.

-aaron c.

by acblue on May 30, 2008 4:37 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Change scares the hell out of people.

That’s why I’m still using decades old software at work. We just got a new phone system (finally) and everyone is still flipping out.

I like midgets more than I should.

by Thingray on May 30, 2008 4:44 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thingray! You're actually a nice guy; you see

what’s going on here, don’t you?

I am [amazingly awesome]!

by Coach Owens on May 30, 2008 5:08 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But you are.

You’re not having a sense of humor. Developing one would be in your best interest.

-aaron c.

by acblue on May 30, 2008 5:28 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If this was happening to you, I don't think

you’d be so “Haha” about it.

I am [amazingly awesome]!

by Coach Owens on May 30, 2008 5:30 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure I would.

The reason people do these things is because you react like this, and it’s entertaining. If you would learn to ignore people busting your balls or, better yet, LAUGH about it, people will stop doing it.

-aaron c.

by acblue on May 30, 2008 5:33 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just read this thread for the first time

and pdb’s as dead on about the saberbloggers vs baseball traditionalists as any commentary here. The big hurdle really is presentation and the alienating declarations.

by Gomez on May 31, 2008 11:07 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why does alchol nad posting always seem lke a great idea?

i know deep dpwn o should be posting, but well its fun to be and ass

by laxtonto on May 30, 2008 10:03 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You know what would be smart?

Create a fanpost. That way you can get all of your drunken rambling in one place.

by BrianL on May 30, 2008 10:25 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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