Sabermetrics (and people who complain about it)
I was just thinking, does anyone else think the struggle between many bloggers and people like Joe Morgan or sportswriters kinda reminds you of the issue of religion vs. science? on a much smaller and less significant scale, obviously.
Look at the way bloggers like Jeff or Dave or DMZ are treated by casual fans or certain sportswriters. They are constantly written off as if they don't already have a huge following, but sometimes these sportswriters will lash out at them and bloggers like them as if all of the sudden they are a threat. Like fundamentalist christians who don't think that athiests are significant enough to really matter vs. the majority, but get all worked up on the "omg WAR ON CHRISTMAS AND JESUS!". which makes it obvious that they feel threatened and angry at them sometimes.
The way sabermetrics developed also mirrors science vs. religion. At first, it was really only "baseball people" who had been in the game for a long time that could really decide who was good and who wasn't. But now, billy beane and others are proof that there are different ways of evaluating talent that work fine. so you could liken a scout to a priest and a "stathead" to a mathematician or scientist. which would make LL and USSM readers students of the bloggers.
it would also explain the argument between scrappy, hard-working white (sorry, "blue collar") players and "selfish" power hitters who "clog up the basepaths". Just like people who think abstinence is always the key to happiness and alcohol is the devil or sex is evil or whatever can be compared to writers who think that someone like Reggie Willits or Willie Bloomqist is more valuable than someone who isnt so scrappy and wasn't a punter for Nebraska (did you know Darin Erstad punted for Nebraska? how scrappy of him!); those values are simply outdated and not realistic in today's society.
so basically Bill James = Socrates wow that sounds weird but whatever.
kids, never major in Philosophy. it will fuck you up forever.
0 recs |
167 comments
Comments
Dude. I think you just blew my mind man.....
I like midgets more than I should.
by Thingray on
May 30, 2008 3:39 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
*saves page before thread gets out of hand*
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on
May 30, 2008 3:49 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
dangerous waters here. tread carefully.
also, Graham’s right.
by Matthew on
May 30, 2008 3:49 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Just an ordinary Chalybäusian dialectic
Thesis – antithesis => synthesis..
Often attributed to Hegel, the triad is actually Chalybäus ’ characterization of Hegel’s dialectic.
by Steve Nelson on
May 30, 2008 3:51 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Is Religion vs. Science really an issue?
I think some people like seeking out controversy when there really isn’t any.
I think this thread qualifies.
by Wilder. on
May 30, 2008 3:52 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
In most of the country, it is.
See Dover, PA. Kansas school board, etc.
You might check out the Flying Spagetti Monster home page as well. It’s a joke that’s run it’s course, but it’s also updated frequently with news.
by MrIncognito on
May 31, 2008 2:28 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
You know who wins every time in the religion versus science argument?
No one
by Sec 108 on
May 30, 2008 3:52 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
This shouldn't even BE a religion vs science argument though
by Graham on
May 30, 2008 3:54 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
1 recs
My point exactly
Because sabermetrics combined with competent scouting will eventually win.
by Sec 108 on
May 30, 2008 4:08 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
and really, they're just two methods aiming toward the same goal.
Scouting and sabermetrics, boiled down, are both about trying to measure tools and skills.
by Matthew on
May 30, 2008 4:09 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
mutual discussion
I own part of it fool.
by Matthew on
May 30, 2008 4:11 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!
"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:12 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
but aren't we the same person?
So, it was my idea as well.
by Matthew on
May 30, 2008 4:14 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
As I leave for vacation I must say this
You said “Measure tools”
by Sec 108 on
May 30, 2008 4:13 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I'll disagree here
It’s the same debate in that it’s reason vs. intuition. The is no grand debate between science and religion – science is not trying to dictate morality for the most part. However, there are many places where science and religion are at odds, and these debates mirror the scouts vs. stats very closely. Debating evolution with a creationist is almost exactly the same as debating small ball vs. sabermetrics. It’s anecdotes and gut feeling vs. data.
by MrIncognito on
May 31, 2008 2:33 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
If the anecdotes are truthful,
they are also data. The problem with your attempt to characterise SABR as data, and scouting as non data, is that there’s a LOT of data that is not available to SABR analysts looking from the outside in.
How fast a player is running now, vs how fast he was running a week ago, what his bat speed is now, in a game, in training, vs what it was a week ago, in a game, in training is also data.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on
Jun 2, 2008 10:56 AM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Wrong
Capitalists always win.
Go Fo Broke!
by eknpdx on
May 30, 2008 3:58 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Capitalism FTW!!!
"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:03 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
As a Christian blogger
I’m confused. Am I the revolutionary or the establishment? Am I at war with myself? Should I be mad that I’m holding me back?
Or, you know, maybe, these contrived divisions are dumb.
by davidcameron on
May 30, 2008 4:01 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Relax Graham. Don't try to take over USSM
in a bloody coup. Watch out, Dave!
"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:04 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
doesn't matter
you’re the tool of capitalism
Go Fo Broke!
by eknpdx on
May 30, 2008 4:07 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
re: "Should I be mad that I’m holding me back?"
Yes.
We’re at war here, Dave. I don’t have time for your nuance or self-reflection.
Pick a damn side, get really mad, and hurl some invective, or I’ll find someone who will.
by marc w on
May 30, 2008 4:07 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
At least Dave's not an ARMS DEALER, MARC.
by Graham on
May 30, 2008 4:10 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
My arms deal out the PAIN, it's true
Better than you and your…
wait, I thought YOU were the arms dealer….
by marc w on
May 30, 2008 4:14 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Oh damn
I misremembered. At least Dave’s not an ARMS DEALER like ME, MARC?
by Graham on
May 30, 2008 4:15 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
vote Jeff/Matthew/Graham
we’ll provide arms as well as girls!
oh wait, wrong thread.
by Matthew on
May 30, 2008 4:16 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
NO POLITICS!
"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:17 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
NO YOU!
This platform endorsed by all parties.
by Matthew on
May 30, 2008 4:18 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
COACH OWENS FOR LL,
2008!!
John Olerud sucked
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:20 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
The onyl people campaigning for you will be brainwashed hippies.
-aaron c.
by acblue on
May 30, 2008 4:21 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Thanks for your vote, then!
John Olerud sucked
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:22 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I was going to bitch at you.
Then I noticed that you’re now making fun of yourself in your sig. So Good on you.
-aaron c.
by acblue on
May 30, 2008 4:31 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
CURSE YOU GRAHAM!
THIS ISN’T FAIR!
NO! STOP!
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:40 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Stop!
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:51 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Do you have a mental disease?
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on
May 30, 2008 4:54 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Seriously, do you guys not see what's going on here?
Or is it just some game?
PLEASE, GRAHAM, STOP!
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:57 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I have no idea to what your talking about
by Robert on
May 30, 2008 4:58 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Graham (or some other Admin, but most likely Graham)
keeps changing my signature.
Graham is [amazingly awesome]!
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:59 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
See?!
Graham is [amazingly awesome]!
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:59 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
You don't have to make excuses for your love for Graham
by OlSalty on
May 30, 2008 5:00 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
GOD HELP ME...
IF YOU CHANGE IT AGAIN…
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 5:01 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I have no idea what you're talking about
by Graham on
May 30, 2008 5:02 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
O RLY?
BEER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 5:02 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!1
BEER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 5:03 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Can someone make it stop?
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on
May 30, 2008 5:03 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I'm the victim here!
Somebody keeps changing my signature! Maybe it isn’t Graham, but it’s somebody!
Robert is [amazingly awesome]!
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 5:04 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Must be multiple personalities
Is Coach there? We’d like to speak with Coach now….
by OlSalty on
May 30, 2008 5:05 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I was an admin last night. They dont have those powers
Stop trying to get attention
by Robert on
May 30, 2008 4:59 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Coach, either your browser is playing tricks on you
or you’ve lost your mind. I’m willing to bet on the latter.
by BrianL on
May 30, 2008 5:00 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Seems like a perfectly normal Coach meltdown to me
Is something amiss?
by OlSalty on
May 30, 2008 4:58 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I'm not seeing anything weird.
Other than the freaky furry picture with the prosthetic-arm lady below this post.
by BrianL on
May 30, 2008 4:58 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
You know who needs some arms?
Girl on right:
by Graham on
May 30, 2008 4:17 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
[Insert obligatory "Go yiff in hell" statement here]
by BrianL on
May 30, 2008 4:33 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
It's pretty strange looking, I'll give you that.
-aaron c.
by acblue on
May 30, 2008 4:38 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I'm pretty sure you guys don't have to be voted for
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on
May 30, 2008 4:37 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Nah, he's in England.
England sucks.
"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:15 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
People who have a problem with boxes are people who don't fit in them...
(I trust someone on this blog to get this)
by Matthew on
May 30, 2008 4:07 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
thats not really what i meant
obviously theres a gigantic grey area between “science” and “Religion”. in fact, its all grey in my opinion. i guess instead of “religion” i should have specified that only applied to people who are fundamentalist about it.
yea the argument starts to fall apart around that section, but you can still see comparisons.
But i do understand when people say that im just creating false conflict. reading it again i see how im doing that. for the record, im not an athiest; im not really sure what i am yet.
by Karma Police on
May 30, 2008 4:34 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
You're a christian?
I’m never reading your superstitious drivel again!
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on
May 30, 2008 10:26 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I think you're missing a point
There are many places where we debate data vs. tradition. This can be evolution vs. creationism/ID, or small ball vs. sabermetrics. It’s correct to say that there shouldn’t be a debate between scouts and stats, just like there really shouldn’t be a debate between science and religion, but there are certainly plenty of parallels to be drawn. It’s also completely not surprising that you can be a stat-head blogger with Christian principles; humans are capable of resolving much more obvious cognitive dissonance with little trouble (assuming you’re a stat and ID person).
by MrIncognito on
May 31, 2008 2:37 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I have lots of things to say.
I think it’s better that I don’t say any of them.
-aaron c.
by acblue on
May 30, 2008 4:07 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
This fanpost can lead nowhere good
Unless…....
!!!!
by OlSalty on
May 30, 2008 4:08 PM PDT
reply
actions
1 recs
Yay!!

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on
May 30, 2008 4:08 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
YIFF!!
"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:09 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I am recommending this FurPost
-aaron c.
by acblue on
May 30, 2008 4:09 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I'm furring this RecommendPost.
"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:12 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
This was meant to be a reply to Coach.
And I’m still shocked.
-aaron c.
by acblue on
May 30, 2008 4:14 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Fail.
"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:14 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Success
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on
May 30, 2008 4:15 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I'm not going to fall for your tricks, loser.
"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:16 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Matthew's gone insane!
So that’s why he doesn’t really write articles on THT!
Seinfeld was a terrible show
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:24 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
That's a new one.
Help I've been owned!
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 4:27 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I've said this before and I'll keep saying it
but it really comes down to presentation. Baseball stats folks do stellar work, think about the game in ways most of us never would have thought of 10 years ago, and advance the understanding of baseball better than anybody at any point in the history of the game.
Where the stats folks fall down, sometimes, is in presentation. Data infallibility is great, and I do tend to believe data, but when data is presented with sentences like “any other conclusion is wrong”, or “you’re just not getting it”, people tend to take that as an attack, rather than as an objective truism.
There’s really no divide, there’s just perception, and as the analytical community’s data gets more sophisticated the presentation of that data in a “consumer-friendly” way becomes much more important.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on
May 30, 2008 4:09 PM PDT
reply
actions
1 recs
The average fan wants a simple stat that they can figure out intheir heads while watching the game.
Anything more complicated scares them.
I like midgets more than I should.
by Thingray on
May 30, 2008 4:24 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I think it's just change that scares people
by Matthew on
May 30, 2008 4:28 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I tried like hell to avoid abandoning an "old-school" mindset.
I was only converted because, in the end, I cannot ignore data and rational thought. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that a large portion of the population is unconcerned with these things.
-aaron c.
by acblue on
May 30, 2008 4:37 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Change scares the hell out of people.
That’s why I’m still using decades old software at work. We just got a new phone system (finally) and everyone is still flipping out.
I like midgets more than I should.
by Thingray on
May 30, 2008 4:44 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I think you're doing it wrong.
I like midgets more than I should.
by Thingray on
May 30, 2008 5:06 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Thingray! You're actually a nice guy; you see
what’s going on here, don’t you?
I am [amazingly awesome]!
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 5:08 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I sense this subthread will not end well for you.
by BrianL on
May 30, 2008 5:08 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Even though I'm not doing anything wrong?
I am [amazingly awesome]!
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 5:16 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
But you are.
You’re not having a sense of humor. Developing one would be in your best interest.
-aaron c.
by acblue on
May 30, 2008 5:28 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
If this was happening to you, I don't think
you’d be so “Haha” about it.
I am [amazingly awesome]!
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 5:30 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I'm pretty sure I would.
The reason people do these things is because you react like this, and it’s entertaining. If you would learn to ignore people busting your balls or, better yet, LAUGH about it, people will stop doing it.
-aaron c.
by acblue on
May 30, 2008 5:33 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
How are we supposed to bust Coach's balls when they haven't dropped yet?
ZING!
by OlSalty on
May 30, 2008 5:36 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
1 recs
Uhh, you got some spam in your signature...
Yeah, just there. No, higher.
That’s it.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on
May 30, 2008 10:30 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Besides, I'm not in a very good mood.
I have a cold and an ear infection and it’s really messed with me.
"Hole in one, eh?"
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 6:53 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Coach I was posting here right after having back surgery.
You didn’t see me having a meltdown.
..though the Vicodin sure helped.
by BrianL on
May 30, 2008 6:57 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
One would think someone would have learned their lesson by now :-/
by Graham on
May 30, 2008 5:16 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Well what did I do?
Huh?
I am not [amazingly awesome]!
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 5:17 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Coach couldn't tell the difference between the shittiest gamethread of the year
and the best one. Honest.
by JI on
May 30, 2008 5:19 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
He's also not going to fall for my tricks!
by Graham on
May 30, 2008 5:20 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
So it was you!
I am [amazingly awesome]!
by Coach Owens on
May 30, 2008 5:22 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
It was me.
I am a former mod. I know all the tricks.
by JI on
May 30, 2008 5:22 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
It was Robert
I guess I shouldn’t have taught him all the tricks.
by Graham on
May 30, 2008 5:26 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I just read this thread for the first time
and pdb’s as dead on about the saberbloggers vs baseball traditionalists as any commentary here. The big hurdle really is presentation and the alienating declarations.
by Gomez on
May 31, 2008 11:07 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Why does alchol nad posting always seem lke a great idea?
i know deep dpwn o should be posting, but well its fun to be and ass
by laxtonto on
May 30, 2008 10:03 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
You know what would be smart?
Create a fanpost. That way you can get all of your drunken rambling in one place.
by BrianL on
May 30, 2008 10:25 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Sabermetrics is a myth perpetuated by the New World Order
Dinosaurs still exist.
Coldly devouring reason as if it were a delectable snack
by Frosty Raptor on
May 31, 2008 3:58 AM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs















