Sabermetrics (and people who complain about it)
I was just thinking, does anyone else think the struggle between many bloggers and people like Joe Morgan or sportswriters kinda reminds you of the issue of religion vs. science? on a much smaller and less significant scale, obviously.
Look at the way bloggers like Jeff or Dave or DMZ are treated by casual fans or certain sportswriters. They are constantly written off as if they don't already have a huge following, but sometimes these sportswriters will lash out at them and bloggers like them as if all of the sudden they are a threat. Like fundamentalist christians who don't think that athiests are significant enough to really matter vs. the majority, but get all worked up on the "omg WAR ON CHRISTMAS AND JESUS!". which makes it obvious that they feel threatened and angry at them sometimes.
The way sabermetrics developed also mirrors science vs. religion. At first, it was really only "baseball people" who had been in the game for a long time that could really decide who was good and who wasn't. But now, billy beane and others are proof that there are different ways of evaluating talent that work fine. so you could liken a scout to a priest and a "stathead" to a mathematician or scientist. which would make LL and USSM readers students of the bloggers.
it would also explain the argument between scrappy, hard-working white (sorry, "blue collar") players and "selfish" power hitters who "clog up the basepaths". Just like people who think abstinence is always the key to happiness and alcohol is the devil or sex is evil or whatever can be compared to writers who think that someone like Reggie Willits or Willie Bloomqist is more valuable than someone who isnt so scrappy and wasn't a punter for Nebraska (did you know Darin Erstad punted for Nebraska? how scrappy of him!); those values are simply outdated and not realistic in today's society.
so basically Bill James = Socrates wow that sounds weird but whatever.
kids, never major in Philosophy. it will fuck you up forever.
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Dude. I think you just blew my mind man.....
I like midgets more than I should.
*saves page before thread gets out of hand*
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
dangerous waters here. tread carefully.
also, Graham’s right.
Just an ordinary Chalybäusian dialectic
Thesis – antithesis => synthesis..
Often attributed to Hegel, the triad is actually Chalybäus ’ characterization of Hegel’s dialectic.
Is Religion vs. Science really an issue?
I think some people like seeking out controversy when there really isn’t any.
I think this thread qualifies.
In most of the country, it is.
See Dover, PA. Kansas school board, etc.
You might check out the Flying Spagetti Monster home page as well. It’s a joke that’s run it’s course, but it’s also updated frequently with news.
This shouldn't even BE a religion vs science argument though
by Graham MacAree on May 30, 2008 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
and really, they're just two methods aiming toward the same goal.
Scouting and sabermetrics, boiled down, are both about trying to measure tools and skills.
FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!
"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"
but aren't we the same person?
So, it was my idea as well.
Oh right.
I claim all of your THT powers then.
by Graham MacAree on May 30, 2008 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
I'll disagree here
It’s the same debate in that it’s reason vs. intuition. The is no grand debate between science and religion – science is not trying to dictate morality for the most part. However, there are many places where science and religion are at odds, and these debates mirror the scouts vs. stats very closely. Debating evolution with a creationist is almost exactly the same as debating small ball vs. sabermetrics. It’s anecdotes and gut feeling vs. data.
If the anecdotes are truthful,
they are also data. The problem with your attempt to characterise SABR as data, and scouting as non data, is that there’s a LOT of data that is not available to SABR analysts looking from the outside in.
How fast a player is running now, vs how fast he was running a week ago, what his bat speed is now, in a game, in training, vs what it was a week ago, in a game, in training is also data.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
As a Christian blogger
I’m confused. Am I the revolutionary or the establishment? Am I at war with myself? Should I be mad that I’m holding me back?
Or, you know, maybe, these contrived divisions are dumb.
Relax Graham. Don't try to take over USSM
in a bloody coup. Watch out, Dave!
"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"
doesn't matter
you’re the tool of capitalism
Go Fo Broke!
re: "Should I be mad that I’m holding me back?"
Yes.
We’re at war here, Dave. I don’t have time for your nuance or self-reflection.
Pick a damn side, get really mad, and hurl some invective, or I’ll find someone who will.
At least Dave's not an ARMS DEALER, MARC.
by Graham MacAree on May 30, 2008 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
My arms deal out the PAIN, it's true
Better than you and your…
wait, I thought YOU were the arms dealer….
Oh damn
I misremembered. At least Dave’s not an ARMS DEALER like ME, MARC?
by Graham MacAree on May 30, 2008 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
vote Jeff/Matthew/Graham
we’ll provide arms as well as girls!
oh wait, wrong thread.
NO YOU!
This platform endorsed by all parties.
The onyl people campaigning for you will be brainwashed hippies.
-aaron c.
by Aaron Campeau on May 30, 2008 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I was going to bitch at you.
Then I noticed that you’re now making fun of yourself in your sig. So Good on you.
-aaron c.
by Aaron Campeau on May 30, 2008 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Do you have a mental disease?
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 30, 2008 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Graham (or some other Admin, but most likely Graham)
keeps changing my signature.
Graham is [amazingly awesome]!
I have no idea what you're talking about
by Graham MacAree on May 30, 2008 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm the victim here!
Somebody keeps changing my signature! Maybe it isn’t Graham, but it’s somebody!
Robert is [amazingly awesome]!
Must be multiple personalities
Is Coach there? We’d like to speak with Coach now….
Coach, either your browser is playing tricks on you
or you’ve lost your mind. I’m willing to bet on the latter.
Seems like a perfectly normal Coach meltdown to me
Is something amiss?
I'm not seeing anything weird.
Other than the freaky furry picture with the prosthetic-arm lady below this post.
Hmm
I suspect that if you were less Coachy, random misfortunes would not rain down upon you with quite so much frequency.
by Graham MacAree on May 30, 2008 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
You know who needs some arms?
Girl on right:
by Graham MacAree on May 30, 2008 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure you guys don't have to be voted for
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 30, 2008 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
People who have a problem with boxes are people who don't fit in them...
(I trust someone on this blog to get this)
thats not really what i meant
obviously theres a gigantic grey area between “science” and “Religion”. in fact, its all grey in my opinion. i guess instead of “religion” i should have specified that only applied to people who are fundamentalist about it.
yea the argument starts to fall apart around that section, but you can still see comparisons.
But i do understand when people say that im just creating false conflict. reading it again i see how im doing that. for the record, im not an athiest; im not really sure what i am yet.
by Karma Police on May 30, 2008 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
You're a christian?
I’m never reading your superstitious drivel again!
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
I think you're missing a point
There are many places where we debate data vs. tradition. This can be evolution vs. creationism/ID, or small ball vs. sabermetrics. It’s correct to say that there shouldn’t be a debate between scouts and stats, just like there really shouldn’t be a debate between science and religion, but there are certainly plenty of parallels to be drawn. It’s also completely not surprising that you can be a stat-head blogger with Christian principles; humans are capable of resolving much more obvious cognitive dissonance with little trouble (assuming you’re a stat and ID person).
This fanpost can lead nowhere good
Unless…....
!!!!
by OlSalty on May 30, 2008 4:08 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Yay!!

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 30, 2008 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I am recommending this FurPost
-aaron c.
by Aaron Campeau on May 30, 2008 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions
This was meant to be a reply to Coach.
And I’m still shocked.
-aaron c.
by Aaron Campeau on May 30, 2008 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Success
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 30, 2008 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not going to fall for your tricks, loser.
"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"
Matthew's gone insane!
So that’s why he doesn’t really write articles on THT!
Seinfeld was a terrible show
I've said this before and I'll keep saying it
but it really comes down to presentation. Baseball stats folks do stellar work, think about the game in ways most of us never would have thought of 10 years ago, and advance the understanding of baseball better than anybody at any point in the history of the game.
Where the stats folks fall down, sometimes, is in presentation. Data infallibility is great, and I do tend to believe data, but when data is presented with sentences like “any other conclusion is wrong”, or “you’re just not getting it”, people tend to take that as an attack, rather than as an objective truism.
There’s really no divide, there’s just perception, and as the analytical community’s data gets more sophisticated the presentation of that data in a “consumer-friendly” way becomes much more important.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 30, 2008 4:09 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
The average fan wants a simple stat that they can figure out intheir heads while watching the game.
Anything more complicated scares them.
I like midgets more than I should.
I tried like hell to avoid abandoning an "old-school" mindset.
I was only converted because, in the end, I cannot ignore data and rational thought. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that a large portion of the population is unconcerned with these things.
-aaron c.
by Aaron Campeau on May 30, 2008 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Change scares the hell out of people.
That’s why I’m still using decades old software at work. We just got a new phone system (finally) and everyone is still flipping out.
I like midgets more than I should.
I think you're doing it wrong.
I like midgets more than I should.
Thingray! You're actually a nice guy; you see
what’s going on here, don’t you?
I am [amazingly awesome]!
But you are.
You’re not having a sense of humor. Developing one would be in your best interest.
-aaron c.
by Aaron Campeau on May 30, 2008 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure I would.
The reason people do these things is because you react like this, and it’s entertaining. If you would learn to ignore people busting your balls or, better yet, LAUGH about it, people will stop doing it.
-aaron c.
by Aaron Campeau on May 30, 2008 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions
How are we supposed to bust Coach's balls when they haven't dropped yet?
ZING!
by OlSalty on May 30, 2008 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Uhh, you got some spam in your signature...
Yeah, just there. No, higher.
That’s it.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Besides, I'm not in a very good mood.
I have a cold and an ear infection and it’s really messed with me.
"Hole in one, eh?"
Coach I was posting here right after having back surgery.
You didn’t see me having a meltdown.
..though the Vicodin sure helped.
One would think someone would have learned their lesson by now :-/
by Graham MacAree on May 30, 2008 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Coach couldn't tell the difference between the shittiest gamethread of the year
and the best one. Honest.
by JI on May 30, 2008 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions
He's also not going to fall for my tricks!
by Graham MacAree on May 30, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions
It was me.
I am a former mod. I know all the tricks.
by JI on May 30, 2008 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions
It was Robert
I guess I shouldn’t have taught him all the tricks.
by Graham MacAree on May 30, 2008 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I just read this thread for the first time
and pdb’s as dead on about the saberbloggers vs baseball traditionalists as any commentary here. The big hurdle really is presentation and the alienating declarations.
Why does alchol nad posting always seem lke a great idea?
i know deep dpwn o should be posting, but well its fun to be and ass
You know what would be smart?
Create a fanpost. That way you can get all of your drunken rambling in one place.
Sabermetrics is a myth perpetuated by the New World Order
Dinosaurs still exist.
Coldly devouring reason as if it were a delectable snack

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