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Around SBN: Devils Beat Rangers, Head To Stanley Cup Finals

Defense Update

Wbc_029_tiny by Jeff Sullivan on in Seattle Mariners Stats

Via THT, we curently stand at -36 plays made. Second-worst is Pittsburgh, at -29, while third-worst is Kansas City, at -21. The difference between the Mariners' and the Blue Jays' defenses so far has been roughly 60 runs, or about 185 runs over a full season.

It's too bad that we promoted Jeremy Reed to play a corner every few days, because I'm kind of curious just how bad this could get without him.

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This is frightening.

DEFENSE MATTERS!!!

I like midgets more than I should.

by Thingray on May 27, 2008 12:59 PM PDT reply actions  

Seriously we should trade for Griffey.

We’ve gotta go for the worst all-time defense.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 27, 2008 1:03 PM PDT reply actions  

Worst all-time defensive team?

C Piazza?
1B Richie Sexson
2B Jeff Kent? No one really comes to mind immediately….
3B Miguel Cabrera
SS Hanley Ramirez
LF Raul Ibanez
CF Ken Griffey Jr.
RF Manny Ramirez

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 27, 2008 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

well, there's no way this is the worst all-time

it might be close to worse of active players but you have Piazza on there.

by Matthew on May 27, 2008 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh yeah he retired.

Forgot about that. All-time I guess doesn’t fit, but it’s probably the worst you could assemble of Current regulars right now.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 27, 2008 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah I kind of blew that.

I said all-time then just thought about who I’ve watched recently that have made me want to puke when they play defense.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 27, 2008 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

There are some great players who were or are below average defensively

Rogers Hornsby couldn’t do infield popups. Derek Jeter has bad range. Ted Williams used to pretend to take batting practice in LF.

by eponymous_coward on May 27, 2008 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe the Mariners need to read the Angel's new book,

“How To Win Without Scoring Any Runs.” You guys are not the only frustrated fans out there.

Once again Ichiro rocks!

by 44FAN on May 27, 2008 1:33 PM PDT reply actions  

So you're frustrated

because you’re not winning in a more aesthetically pleasing or balanced fashion?

by marc w on May 27, 2008 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

The last several games have been pitching duels, and decided by a walk off

hit, walk, or homerun. They get kind of frustrating to watch after the first two or three games in a row. You want your players to hit and they are’nt hitting, but the great pitching and defense has kept us up on top. Some of our key offensive players are injured, we have had a lot of injuries, the rookies replacing these guys have had no luck at the plate so far and it is really hurting us. I can’t complain, that’s the way it is, we will be better when we get a few players back and we are still in first place in spite of the situation.

by 44FAN on May 27, 2008 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've never heard anyone complain that winning walk-offs is

‘frustrating.’ Very strange.

Yeah, the Angels have been hit hard by injuries, and it just highlights how much better that team’s offensive core is/was. It’s another sign that people looking at 2007’s team OPS+ numbers or whatever came to some…interesting conclusions about how close the M’s were to the Angels. (I was a victim of this to a degree, though I still thought the angels would cruise to the title).

by marc w on May 27, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

...?

The Angels have scored 229 runs and allowed 217 and by baseruns they’re about dead even. The Angels have been exactly as good as most of us predicted.

by Matthew on May 27, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Despite playing w/o Kendrick

or Lackey or Escobar. They’re light-years ahead of a mostly healthy M’s squad.

I forget – how many wins did you think they’d have?

by marc w on May 27, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

before the injuries

though it’s to be mentioned that Escobar was never projected for a full season.

by Matthew on May 27, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

How about after the injuries?

Seems like you would have had to have the M’s above that number…

I thought the Angels offense would be much better, though again, some of their current funk is due to the injury to Kendrick. I thought their defense would be a bit better, but it’s generally right where I thought it’d be – middle of the pack. Surprised by their solid infield D.
Anyway, I had them at 89-90 assuming Lackey was only out a month or two. M’s at 85 (whoops).

by marc w on May 27, 2008 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I didn't re-eval after the injuries

I projected in missing time across the board beforehand. To go back and change that after the fact would have been tampering with the whole point of projecting.

by Matthew on May 27, 2008 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Look at it this way:

Every team will have losses like that. But the bright side? Lackey went 9 innings, and only gave up 3 runs in that time. That’s an amazing performance. After missing all that time to injury, Lackey has come back and pitched like his old self.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 27, 2008 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Anyway, my point being, don't complain about taking 2 out of 3 in Chicago

and especially don’t complain about it to Mariners fans.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 27, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think any Angels fan can complain, even in the least, to Mariners fans

Yeah a few Angels are hurt, but that just highlights the depth of the Angels system. The Mariners have no depth, really. Vlad goes down? Pick three of Sarge Jr, Hunter, Rivera, Anderson, Willits to hold down the fort. Figgins and Kendrick down? You have Izturis, Wood, Rodriguez, and Quinlan to jump in. Yes, none of the subs are as good as the starters, but that’s to be expected. The Mariners don’t really have position prospects that could fill in if a starter went down for a few weeks.

Yes, the Angels aren’t hitting lately. Neither are the Mariners. At least the Angels have been pitching, and their defense isn’t as bad.

I’m not perfectly happy with the current state of the Angels either. Just don’t think you’re going to get a good reaction talking about that with fans who’ve cared about the 2008 Mariners.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 27, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

You are a closet M's fan!

“Just don’t think you’re going to get a good reaction talking about that with fans who’ve cared about the 2008 Mariners.”

by Wilder. on May 27, 2008 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Warning him against complaining to you guys

Not talking about myself. Honestly, I’ve gotten a perverse pleasure from the failings of the 08 Ms.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 27, 2008 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 27, 2008 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why is she such a good girl?

When you are given a gift, you have got to share it with the world!

by Wilder. on May 27, 2008 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know

Most of her pics try to cover her cleavage too. I mean come on, at least give us folks a little peak.

by Fin on May 27, 2008 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Okay, I admit it.

I started watching this show halfway through the season when I found out JLH sported a bigger ass….

by ThundaPC on May 27, 2008 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

This show took place in Seattle

Sign her to be a ball girl. She would be high profile enough to not get hit on by Yuni.

by thewyrm on May 27, 2008 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

It was.

She was a total cunt to the crew.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on May 27, 2008 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Really?

She was a no one when Dark Angel first came out. Her only claim to fame was as “the hot girlfriend” from idle hands. How did James Cameron let her get away with that?

by thewyrm on May 27, 2008 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

A friend of mine's a rigging best boy

so he’s not the sort of person the talent sees working a lot (given that he’s rarely on set when they’re shooting), but his one encounter with Jessica was pretty awful. But that might have been on the Fantastic Four, now that I think of it.

Contrarily, Judi Dench (he worked Riddick) even took meals with the crew.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on May 27, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was just trying to have a discussion here and respond to the comments on

my comments. No harm done. And as I stated I am not complaining.

I have always been treated reasonably well by the Mariners fans on the few occasions I have posted here. If they want me to leave I imagine they will tell me so. I don’t need an Angel fan telling me whether or not I should be having a discussion with a fan of another team. Thanks.

by 44FAN on May 27, 2008 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Uh oh...

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

by Wilder. on May 27, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Whining about the Angels for a paragraph

and then closing with “not complaining” seems a lot like complaining. And no, I wasn’t saying you shouldn’t complain like I have the authority to tell you stop. Just saying it seems a bit…out of place. Like you’re complaining about a sprained ankle to a guy in full traction. The analogy is lame, I know. But I think you get my point.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 27, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Our franchise is in full traction?

I dunno, I thought that was a pretty good analogy.

by BrianL on May 27, 2008 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yea I was going to say

At least the angels are still in contention. All we have left to root for is getting to draft Strasburg in 2009.

by Fin on May 27, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Okay

1. The rally monkey is retarded. There is no such thing as good in a “rally monkey kind of way.”

2. I know Izturis looks funny. He has comical features, including his eyebrows. Maybe I chose the picture and the screenname for fun, and not in the attempt at being an internet tough guy?

3. Way to resort to ad hominem attacks. I guess I’ll go cry in the rain and drink lattes.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 27, 2008 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

There's a difference between trolls and regular angels fans.

Trolls know they’re saying something stupid.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 27, 2008 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like two... football and hoops

and I’ll go to softball/baseball if the opportunity presents itself. But that’s about it.

by seattlebruin on May 27, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Easy

they have to find something they might be better than USC at besides hoops.

The poster formerly known as Matt.

by bluemax on May 27, 2008 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

huzzah new SBN format!

it used to be at least moderately challenging to be a troll. Not any more.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 27, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

1998 Expansion Teams Reign Supreme!

by Goose on May 27, 2008 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Huzzah to Futurama!!

I like midgets more than I should.

by Thingray on May 27, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I said that to someone this weekend and they got pissed.

I don’t think they knew what I meant.

I like midgets more than I should.

by Thingray on May 27, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Really?

I thought this was something that spanned across all cultures.

by Wilder. on May 27, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I didn't think it was a problem.

But he just glared at me and said “yeah, whatever dude”.

Needless to say I didn’t bother wasting my time explaining it to him.

I like midgets more than I should.

by Thingray on May 27, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Welcome to Lookout Landing.

Are you new?

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on May 27, 2008 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Perhaps we could have a daily "free for all" thread or something.

Just a place to hang out and BS without derailing the more serious threads.

I like midgets more than I should.

by Thingray on May 27, 2008 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I might have to do this

but it would, of course, be in the diaries section.

by Jeff Sullivan on May 27, 2008 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

That seems fair.

Then you could just tell everyone to “take it to the free/open thread” or something.

I like midgets more than I should.

by Thingray on May 27, 2008 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Take it! To the free thread

Take it! To the free thread, woh-oh
Take it! To the free thread, it’s not loooooo-oooopus

by Jordan of Boise on May 27, 2008 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

We blame the Mariners.

If they could hold our attention for 5 minutes, maybe we could talk about something related to the team for more than 5 minutes.

by Wilder. on May 27, 2008 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

OK so

Our team defense sucks completely sans Beltre, who is already plus 20 runs or something, and Ichiro who is basically playing average center field.

Huge disappointments – Lopez, Yuni, Johjima

The “we knew they’d suck major ass” category – Wlad, Raul, Sexson

Wlad shouldn’t be our starting RF. He’s a circus in the outfield, and he should be sent down to AAA unless he gets DH’d.

Raul can’t play defense, he’s an old man that has value only as a DH.

Sexson can’t play defense, and he has little to no value because his bat is very close to being finished. I wouldn’t even DH him.

Lopez’ defense can probably be corrected, he’s the one guy I think can turn around his season defensively.

Yuni is bloated and cannot play a good defensive SS anymore. He has little value in his bat. Other options need to be explored for next year at this spot too.

Johjima is getting old, and was never very good at throwing out runners anyways. He also lacks at basic catcher skills such as blocking balls in the dirt.

This team has major problems and they will not be solved unless the entire roster gets a major rehaul, and that makes me drink.

by marinator on May 27, 2008 3:48 PM PDT reply actions  

....aaand we're back on topic!

Wlad was expected to be terrible? I’ll admit I didn’t/don’t know much about his history, but was Raul Jr. defense expected from him? I thought he was a young/athletic guy.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 27, 2008 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

I never heard that he sucked in AAA.

Average defender was what I heard. I’m VERY surprised at his struggles defensively.

I like midgets more than I should.

by Thingray on May 27, 2008 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not surprised because I never watched him in AAA

What little information I got from his defense wasn’t positive though. I don’t know where you heard he was going to be average.

by marinator on May 27, 2008 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Churchill

He played CF in the minors on a semi-regular basis and was always considered a decent defender.

Link to PI report projecting Wlad/Clement

But as far as 2008 goes, I expect a lot of ups and downs from Balentien, with several multiple strikeout games to go with his good power.

He’ll play solid defense and won’t clog up the base paths. He may steal a bag on occasion, too.

I’d have to think this is just one of the downs – Adam Jones struggled at first on D when he came up as well.

by seattlebruin on May 27, 2008 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I seem to remember Cameron saying Wlad was going to suck in the outfield

Maybe not suck, but be below average or something, I don’t have anything to quote from though.

by marinator on May 27, 2008 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'll go search the archives because I can't imagine that it wasn't mentioned over there

but I remember the general sentiment around here was that we expected him to be somewhere in the neighborhood of average with plus potential in a corner.

by seattlebruin on May 27, 2008 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

okay so I'm a total noob about defense stats

But I just looked at Balentien’s RZR for this year (do people like/hate RZR?):

56 balls in zone, 45 plays
10 plays out of zone

If we’re expecting him to make 56 plays in his zone, and he misses some in zone but gets 10 out of zone, giving him 55 plays, does that even out? Or am I reading into it too much?

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 27, 2008 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ok so I read more and the average RF RZR this year is .870

Balentien’s is .804 – not good. I’m still trying to find a metric that will use MiLB numbers to do projections for defense. Any help?

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 27, 2008 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

ok so baseball prospectus' FRAA

puts him between -10

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 27, 2008 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

what the hell

my greater than, less than symbols died. Ok so he’s -2, -7, -10 in the minors, with -7 in RF in 2007.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 27, 2008 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think Wlad was expected to be a -10 < x < 0 guy in RF

he’s been worse than that so far, but for the time being I’m going to write that off as nerves and lack of familiarity with the ML ballparks.

by Jeff Sullivan on May 27, 2008 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

GIVE THE BOY A CHANCE PEOPLE

Yuni got what, three years before the verdict?

by Jordan of Boise on May 27, 2008 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is that for 2008 or overall

because I think Wlad has the tools to be an asset in RF. Not a tremendous one, but a 0 < x < +5 type. His range seems fine, but his instincts and route running look problematic so far, but didn’t he get shifted around the OF a lot in the minors? That would explain some of it.

by Matthew on May 27, 2008 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd agree

he settled in and looked fine in Tacoma, though this has happened so often now, I’m wondering if success in tacoma is inversely correlated w/ success in Seattle. (Jeremy Reed looked like he’d never played OF before in Tacoma, and looked great in his first go-round in Seattle).

Wlad’s been a CF mostly in the minors, and shifted to RF maybe 2-3 years ago. He’s still played some CF in Tacoma. I think Jeff’s got it though – it’s probably nerves and the ballparks. Adam Jones looked nervous last year here (though to be fair, it didn’t show up in his RZR).

by marc w on May 27, 2008 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Yuni thing really bums me out.

I fully expected him to become one of my favorites, and tried to ignore the rumblings that his defense was not nearly as good as his reputation, but at this point it’s impossible to do so. The thing that makes it even more frustrating is that the front office was smart in their approach towards him. The fact that the front office fails even when they do something smart is annoying to me.

-aaron c.

by Aaron Campeau on May 27, 2008 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

How were they smart in their approach?

If they were smart they’d have kept him away from the buffet tables and McDonald’s. Or the trainer could have done his job and taught him how to keep from getting too muscular/fat/whatever the hell he is now.

by marinator on May 27, 2008 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

I’m talking about buying out arb years at below market rate.

-aaron c.

by Aaron Campeau on May 27, 2008 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

If he could just be league average defensively, he'd still be a great asset

at the very least, the potential is still there, and with the years left on his deal, there’s no reason he can’t get back to being the player we thought he was. Here’s to hoping, at least.

by seattlebruin on May 27, 2008 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 27, 2008 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Depends on if it's a training/diet issue

or if that is just what his body is going to be.

I like midgets more than I should.

by Thingray on May 27, 2008 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not gonna disagree

and I’m just hoping it was a stupid dietary decision or a conscious decision to try and bulk up (which, btw, hasn’t helped at all) so perhaps the damage is reversible.

by seattlebruin on May 27, 2008 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Beltre is below average this year

I don’t really get that, and his insane out of zone plays may make up for that. His numbers just look…crazy.

Lopez is still roughly average or -3 < x < +3 sort of range.
Johjima was #1 in caught stealing percentage last year, so clearly he’s been good in the recent past.

Still, the depth of this is startling, and the M’s need to try and understand it. When good players seem to get way worse the longer they’re exposed to Mariner ‘teaching’ – you find out why.
It’d be great to swap out Ibanez, but I’m still having trouble understanding why LF is so damned important to the team DER. The team DER looks like it’s influenced more by Ibanez or Sexson than it is by, say, Lopez, and that doesn’t make any sense.

by marc w on May 27, 2008 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Their middle infield is pretty good.

But their outfield is bad, isn’t it?

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on May 27, 2008 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

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