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Chuck Armstrong Doesn't Understand Baseball, Probability

Update: the more I think about it, the more I think I'm misinterpreting Armstrong's quote. So uh. Whoops. The main point is still true, though.

From today's issue of Pravda:

"In my 23 years, I have never ever seen anything like this," Armstrong said. "We saw it the other way in 2001. I mean, you have to ask yourself, 'How did the Mariners win 116 games that season with that roster, compared to this roster?' This is just as inexplicable the other way."

in·ex·pli·ca·ble [in-ek-spli-kuh-buhl, in-ik-splik-uh-buhl] 
adjective
not explicable; incapable of being accounted for or explained.

I find that the two seasons are quite the opposite of inexplicable. Explicable, you might say. The 2001 Mariners had everything. Good pitching, an offense loaded with people capable of getting on base, a more relevant sort of chemistry, and one of the greatest defenses anyone's ever seen. 116 wins might've been a little excessive - their Pythagorean record was a way more pathetic 109-53 - but that team was terrific, and anyone who fancies himself a decent analyst would be mesmerized by the amount of talent on the roster. Maybe not by the raw star power, but good teams aren't built on star power; they're built on ability, and the 2001 Mariners had it in spades. That team was destined to go places, and when you look back on it today, it's easy to see why.

The 2008 Mariners, meanwhile, don't have everything, and were never alleged to have everything, at least not by people who know stuff. They were built around a talented pitching staff, but pitching staffs are notoriously fragile, and when you don't support them with offense or defense you're just asking for agony. The Opening Day roster was littered with risks and collapse candidates, and while most intelligent people expected something better than this, they still issued warnings that a team-wide breakdown was a distinct possibility. Let's not pretend that the warnings weren't there. There were legitimate reasons to see every single one of these individual player performances coming, and so while the team's current record comes as a surprise, it doesn't come as a shock. 

When people try to project how a team will do, narrowing it down to a particular W/L record is a gross oversimplification. Good analysts project a range of possible outcomes, and anyone worth his salt knew coming into the year that the Mariners were a low- to mid-80s win team with way more downside than upside. This kind of performance, then, has long been a known possibility. It isn't inexplicable, and the ease with which it can be reasonably explained strikes me as rather damning.

Ordinarily this wouldn't be that big of a deal. So the president of an organization doesn't really understand the organization's product. So what? I'm pretty sure the president of my company doesn't know the first thing about taste receptor technology (I'm also pretty sure he doesn't read this website). That's not his job. The president's job is to help make the organization popular and profitable, and in that respect Armstrong has done a hell of a job.

The problem here stems from the fact that Armstrong inserts himself into many of the organization's roster decisions despite a clear lack of understanding of how the game works. The same goes for a few other people, too. And while they might be really good at their primary job descriptions, they suck at knowing what's in the best interests of the actual team, and the last thing we need our bad GM to be hearing is bad advice. That's what leads to crazy bullshit like trading a valuable reliever for Horacio Ramirez. How arrogant do you have to be to try to make decisions on matters of which you have zero knowledge and zero training? Is this the worst-run organization in baseball, or what?

Forget Bavasi. Fire everyone. They all suck.

0 recs  |  Comment 116 comments

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Display:

I would post my realiation gif

with the subject line: SUCK IT SULLIVAN

but then I realized I can’t host it here if I’m not an admin…

...so you have mail.

by JI on May 24, 2008 11:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your gifs are much better than mine

At least in terms of frame rate.

This frustrates me.

by Jeff Sullivan on May 25, 2008 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aw, don't be sad because you're a loser, Jeff!

We all respect you!

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How tall are you?

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah right.

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've heard everybody say you're short.

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, Brett did too.

He’s 5’10”.

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Righhhhhhhht.

It’s okay if you’re short. It really is. You don’t have to be ashamed.

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ahem.

It’s fine if you don’t want to tell the truth. It’s okay.

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

5'10" isn't even short...

It’s pretty close to average.

And wtf Coach, you’re like what, 4’11?

by OlSalty on May 25, 2008 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

1'1".

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I get the feeling most people my age are 6'+

But then again I was tiny growing up, so I’m just used to seeing myself as short.

by Graham on May 25, 2008 12:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

At least in America,

the average height for men is ~5’10”-5’11”. So, if you’re actually telling the truth, you’re average in our eyes. :)

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I remember hearing somewhere the average American male is 5'11"

And since you’re in England we can deduct an inch for being English.

by OlSalty on May 25, 2008 12:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I move back in 6 weeks

I’m really looking forward to American wenches and real steak.

by Graham on May 25, 2008 12:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And real roadkill!

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:40 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does it matter?

Lipstick on a pig and all that jazz

by OlSalty on May 25, 2008 12:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It matter a whole hell of a lot to me.

Fashion sense can turn a 5 into an 8 and a 10 into a 3 in my book.

-aaron c.

by acblue on May 25, 2008 12:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"In my book"

It’s impossible for this statement to be false.

-aaron c.

by acblue on May 26, 2008 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think in general, yes.

But when the average woman is probably less pretty than me, we’ve got problems.

by Graham on May 25, 2008 12:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just wish American women would dress better.

I wish Americans would dress better in general.

-aaron c.

by acblue on May 25, 2008 12:49 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, you tell 'em!

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 25, 2008 4:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You and I are made of equal height.

Too bad we’re not equal at everything else, and everything else goes in your favor….>:(

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 25, 2008 4:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No. :(

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't want to think about last season.

:(

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What the heck?

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stupid SBN 2.0.

):<):<):<

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Goddamn you Coach you just made me troll through the mlbtv archives

to watch that inning. That’s the only thing baseball related that can still stop my heart, I’m having goddamn war flashbacks.

by JI on May 25, 2008 12:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

When I wan't to feel not suicidal

I think about the 9th inning of game 7 of the 2006 LCS… or sometimes Sasaki striking out A-Rod for #116, but mostly Game 7.

by JI on May 25, 2008 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think about this year.

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I also think about

how SOME people should…disappear.

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You seem depressed there little buddy.

Don’t go through with it. Someone might love you.

by Graham on May 25, 2008 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, we have a comedian in the house!

"I'm out there Jerry, and I'm llllllovin' every minute of it!"

by Coach Owens on May 25, 2008 12:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fucking rec'd

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 25, 2008 4:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This post

has finally made me realize the truth. We are an overall worse run organization than the Giants. Sabean may be a worse GM but at least the rest of it can’t be as bad as ours.

by sunshinem'sfan on May 24, 2008 11:11 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

So basically

What he’s saying is, there’s nothing wrong with the team, it’s just bad luck. I like it, maybe that means they won’t try to fix it and fuck it up even worse.

by OlSalty on May 24, 2008 11:12 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Help for Armstrong

Nice editorial, Jeff. Maybe it could be explained to him like this. He uses 2001 and 2008 to depict a difference that is inexplicable (to him). Tell him this:
- if you take two quarters, one shiny and new and commemorative of Washington statehood, and the other a 1987 eagleback from Paul Allen’s piggybank, you might think since they are worth the same, cost the same, you’ll get the same results from using them. But no.
- if you flip those two quarters 162 times, sometimes you’ll get heads and sometimes you’ll get tails. Which doesn’t matter, it’s a random result. What does matter is that you will not … (emphatic not) ... get the two to produce the same number of heads and tails per 162 flips each. If by chance you do, you can’t repeat it.
- to save time, just remember the last four words from the above.

We endured John Hart, hearing him called “the smartest man in baseball” by a deluded Tom Hicks, who also views the game of baseball in a bipolar way: wants to win a world series, but discounts game to game play quality as family entertainment. Sound familiar?

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

by Ed Coffin on May 24, 2008 11:18 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I know peole will probably disagree with me

but I thought the 2001 team was pretty good on paper going into the season. The funny thing is that I think they looked good now for entirely different reasons then I thought at the time.

by JI on May 24, 2008 11:32 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

When I was worried about Chucky/Lincoln's baseball idiocy

RE: the next GM

This is what I was afraid of. I’‘m afraid they’ll pass over smart people because they think their baseball smarts are stupid.

I invite Matthew to remind me that I am wrong.

by JI on May 24, 2008 11:43 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I had this really long, well thought out response to this.

The palm of my hand then brushed the touch pad, sent the browser back, and erased it. Fuck.

In summary; we haven’t seen how the ownership representatives react to failure of this magnitude. Bavasi got some extra time because he was doomed to failure from the beginning. The team pulled a decent season out of it’s ass in his do-or-die year, but has been atrocious this year. I’d be shocked if Bavasi was the GM in 2009.

Seeing as how Armstrong and Lincoln seem to thing in things in absolute terms, and hired Bavasi in large part because he was philosophically similar to Gillick, it would not surprise me in the least to see a total change in philosophy with their next hire. It’s obvious that Armstrong and Lincoln aren’t real smart when it comes to baseball, but you don’t make it that far up the food chain in a money making empire as vast as Nintendo of America by being a dummy. And it’s entirely possible that if revenues fall far enough, they find themselves shitcanned right along with Bavasi. Which would be ideal, as far as I’m concerned.

-aaron c.

by acblue on May 25, 2008 12:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A momentary contrary thought

With all due respect, I think Armstrong’s point is that coming out of spring training, I don’t think anyone saw that 2001 team being as good as it proved to be. A key factor for that team was the blossoming of Boone as the second coming of A-Rod. No one, Gillick included, expected that Boone was going to put up one of the best offensive seasons in the history of baseball for a second baseman. I don’t think anyone expected 37-year old Mark McLemore to post career highs in OBP and SLG. Or Stan Javier to play as if he was 26 years old instead of 37 years old. That was Ichiro’s first season and it certainly wasn’t clear how he would handle the transition to North America.

I don’t think anyone before the season would have rated that team as good for more than about 90 wins. The 2000 team won 91 games. A lot of key parts of that 2001 team were on the wrong side of 30 (Wilson, Buhner, Martinez, Olerud, McLemore, Javier). A-Rod was gone, replaced by a 32-year old Boone with a history of injuries and whose record gave every indication that he was on the downside of a career that peaked in 1998 when he was 29 years old. And even at that peak Boone wasn’t nearly the player that A-Rod was in 2001 at 24 years old. Ichiro was the only significant area of improvement on the roster, but if Ichiro attained his most optimistic projections his added contributions would not likely have offset the normal attrition of skills associated with an aging roster.

Then the team went out and won 116 games. No one saw that coming. No one. Just as no one really saw this disaster befalling the 2007. And just as no one foresaw the 2004 implosion. Heading into the 2004 Peter White collected preseason predictions from each of the regular Mariners bloggers. IIRC – I had them at about .500 and I was just about the most pessimistic of the prognosticators.

by Steve Nelson on May 25, 2008 12:21 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If that was his point then, okay, yeah, I'll agree with him

However, when he says “How did the Mariners win 116 games that season with that roster, compared to this roster?” he seems to be implying that this year’s roster ought to have just about as much talent as 2001, which just isn’t true. That 2001 roster was stacked.

I might be misinterpreting the quote. Wouldn’t be the first time. If that’s the case, then my apologies to Mr. Armstrong. But even in that event, he still doesn’t understand baseball.

by Jeff Sullivan on May 25, 2008 12:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think he was saying this team was as good as the 2001 team

I think he was merely indicating that the performances of both teams were about equally unexpected, but in opposite directions.

Actually I think 2004 is a better marker for this team. I don’t think anyone saw that collapse coming. IIRC – in Peter White’s collection of blogger predictions I was one of the most negative, and I had the Mariners as about a .500 team. There was a consensus they needed breaks to make the playoffs, but no thought that was a 100 loss team.

by Steve Nelson on May 25, 2008 12:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was surprised by 2004

Considering that I knew nothing about baseball until 2001 (and I knew very little at that point, honestly) that’s not a big shocker. 2004 actually made me a smarter baseball fan, because I was so surprised by how horrible they were, I went looking for answers. And now I spend all my free time reading LL. Gee, thanks 2004 Mariners.

-aaron c.

by acblue on May 25, 2008 12:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The more I read the quote, the more I think you're right.

Dammit. I hate when this happens. Can I hit ‘undo’?

2004’s definitely a better marker. This seems to be the same phenomenon, indicating that the front office really hasn’t made that much progress (if any), and it comes with the side benefit of not having a King Felix in the farm system this time to look forward to down the road.

Hard to believe this has happened to us. Twice. In five years.

by Jeff Sullivan on May 25, 2008 12:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

eeh

I still think the overall idea is right.

The 2001 team was a good team on paper that most people discounted because of the loss of A-Rod and failure to understand the value of defense—plus they had good role players. This team was a big pile o’ suck waiting to happen, bad roster construction, players doomed to collaspe; but the MSM consensus disagreed…The point is Armstrong still doesn’t know shit about roster construction.

by JI on May 25, 2008 1:02 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I still believe in my main point

but now I wish I would have arrived at it in a way that doesn’t also make me look stupid.

by Jeff Sullivan on May 25, 2008 1:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm gonna double up the punchline

because I’m groggy and I don’t know how clear that was

In each case they didn’t know that they had a good/bad team on their hands and they should have. The part where the team rockets off in the direction of best/worst team ever is irrelevant.

by JI on May 25, 2008 1:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I totally agree that they have made little progress from 2004
2004’s definitely a better marker. This seems to be the same phenomenon, indicating that the front office really hasn’t made that much progress (if any), and it comes with the side benefit of not having a King Felix in the farm system this time to look forward to down the road.

We can even hark back to 2006.

Bavasi’s comments today acknowledge aging factors for player performance – note the part about how they don’t think the players are that old. Simultaneously, though, the comments indicate the team doesn’t really understand how that affects individual players – else he wouldn’t have made that statement. I’m guessing they reckon that since Vidro is only 33 years od he can’t be that far off his peak.

It almost seems as if its a one-scale fits all assessment, without considering that different skill sets generally age differently and that the arcs of individual players can vary greatly.. In Marinerland, if you’re under 35 you must still be good.

by Steve Nelson on May 25, 2008 1:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know how much this has been rehashed

since I didn’t start becoming a smarter baseball fan until ~2 years ago when I read Moneyball the first time… but is it possible that another disaster of that ‘04 season was rushing Blackley and Nageotte to the bigs? What happened to those two guys?

What the hell happened to our farm system? We had four guys on this top 50 list, acquired a top 5 guy (Reed) midseason and had a bunch of our other Top 10 guys develop in the four years since (notably Jones, Tui, and Balentien)

Also, per THT, Jeremy Reed is their #4 prospect in all of baseball in 2004, when he was traded to the M’s – after Adam Jones rough start to this season, I’m wondering if he might be another Reed who fails for whatever reason. Yeah, I know he’s 22, and Reed is only 26 and still could make a nice career for himself, but to this point he hasn’t even come close to living up to his prospect billing.

Links to THT Top 50 2004
1-25
26-50
Adam Jones’ player card

by seattlebruin on May 25, 2008 1:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

As far as the pitchers go...

Read this. It’s pretty eye-opening.

As for Jones and Reed? It’s anyone’s guess. I think Jones will end up being a borderline star, and I think Reed will end up having a fairly decent career as a 4th OF/fringe starting OF and play into his mid-late 30’s. But these are guesses.

-aaron c.

by acblue on May 25, 2008 1:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those prospects

IMHO – a couple of issues.

First is that the pitching prospects weren’t as good as the team believed they were, and led everyone to believe. Their numbers, and the teams assessments of the players, were skewed by the fact that at that time almost the entire minor league system for the Mariners played in pitcher-friendly parks for their league. That was a big reason why the Mariners pitchers appeared to be doing so well for their leagues.

This also played out in trade discussions. The Mariners had a philosophy that pitching is the most difficult talent to acquire and is always in demand, so if you have pitching you can trade it for whatever else you need. Their drafts skewed heavily toward. Also after the success of Moyer they developed a weakness for soft-tossing lefties. They didn’t recognize how rare pitchers like Moyer are; looking for more pltchers like Moyer is inevitably a low return effort.

Reed was over hyped. Dave Cameron saw a lot of Reed when Reed was in the Sally and Appalachian Leagues. Cameron was writing for BP at the time and pressed them about the kid named Reed who was pretty good and not receiving any attention. Then all of sudden Reed went on a .400 hitting tear and BP anointed him the #1 prospect in baseball. At that point Dave was saying slow down, he’s good but he’s not that good.

by Steve Nelson on May 25, 2008 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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