18-31
John McLaren is not a good manager. At least, he hasn't shown himself to be a good manager to date. In his ~five months at the helm of this sinking ship, he's demonstrated either an inability or an unwillingness to understand a bevy of relatively simple concepts, from batting order to platoon splits to outfield defense. Concepts so easy to grasp that you'd think the understanding of them would be a prerequisite for the job. Down the stretch last season, as the Mariners just about catapulted themselves out of the playoff race, I was all over the guy for being underqualified, and on two or three occasions requested his immediate dismissal. He was hurting the team's chances of winning at a time when they couldn't afford to face any additional disadvantage. And so far in 2008, there hasn't really been any indication that he's a changed man. He appears to possess the same managerial skillset as he did the day Grover resigned, a managerial skillset that makes him less a contributor and more an obstacle that must be overcome.
But with that said, John McLaren doesn't deserve to pay the price for what's going on. He doesn't. John McLaren shouldn't be the guy looking for another job come tomorrow or next week or next month or whenever, not when there are so many other people on the team who're worse at what they do, and who're dealing us greater harm.
It's always easy to blame the manager. I should know, I've done it. Managers end up shouldering all kinds of blame for things over which they may or may not have any control, and some of the bad ones really do cost teams a few games in the standings. They're the number one scapegoat, and in a situation like this, where you have a team with high expectations just completely falling apart, and you want to know what happened, a lot of people tend to assume that the manager is at fault for somehow ruining the energy. "He didn't push them hard enough." "He didn't help them achieve their potential." "He embraced a culture of losing." "He couldn't motivate." You'll get a lot of different lines sharing a common insinuation - the manager had lost the team, and the team was collapsing as a result. And for this reason, those people'll tell you, the manager should be given his walking papers so that someone else can come in and breathe new life into a slump-weary ballclub.
But there's a problem with this line of thinking, though. And it's that this line of thinking vastly overstates the impact a manager can have. Managers can cost you a run here and a win there, but they're not responsible for things like season-ruining death spirals. How could they be? Just how big of an impact can a guy in the dugout really have if he never throws a ball or swings a bat? At the end of the day, it's the players who have to take care of matters on the field, and even if you disagree with some of the guys the manager chooses to play, that's at least as much a roster construction problem as a managerial problem. A manager can only work with the tools the front office gives him, after all.
That's the on-field stuff. But I'm equally skeptical that a manager could cause substantial damage in the clubhouse. What would be the mechanism of such a thing taking place? How, exactly, would a manager go about "losing a team", and how would this manifest itself in the results? Baseball teams - even successful ones - are made up of clubhouse cliques and solitary individuals who come together for several hours a day in an effort to win a game. They don't rally around the manager any more than you and your coworkers might rally around your boss. So how could a manager "lose" something that was never really his to begin with? I suppose you could argue that a manager could lose his team's respect, but even in that scenario - and I'm not convinced that it happens nearly as often as people claim it does - so what? What effect would that have? Does Randomly Generated Cleanup Hitter have more trouble making contact if he thinks his manager is full of hot air? For God's sake, the 2006 Blue Jays finished 87-75 in a season in which their manager threatened to punch his designated hitter in the face. I'm not seeing how respect is a major issue.
And as for motivation, this isn't middle school. This is the Major Leagues. If a team is slumping, and the players start getting complacent and going through the motions, that seems to be more their fault than the manager's. At that level you need to be able to motivate yourself. It's what a player has been conditioned to do throughout his entire career, because if he ever slipped up in college or the minors, he'd have been in danger of getting passed by someone putting forth a greater effort. Yeah, you'd probably like to have a manager capable of delivering stirring speeches at the drop of a hat to light a fire under the team at every first sign of trouble, but those people don't exist. A manager can only say so much. It's really ought to be up to the players to make sure they're trying hard every day. If they don't, I feel it reflects worse on them than it does on the coach.
I'm losing my train of thought. I don't even know if that last paragraph made sense. I guess my main point is this: there's been a lot of talk that McLaren's job is in jeopardy, that the Mariners might be getting ready to show him the door. What would this accomplish? What good would it do? Does anyone think that McLaren's hypothetical midseason replacement would be able to squeeze any more out of this pile of crap roster than we're already getting? If not, what's the point?
Fire McLaren now and you're saying that he did a bad job. A terrible job, even. A worse job than anyone currently on the roster, a roster with a pathetic offense and arguably the most disappointing rotation in franchise history. How does it make sense to scapegoat the manager when he very clearly isn't even close to being the team's biggest problem? I won't argue that McLaren's particularly good at what he does, because he isn't, but right now our 3-4-5 pitchers have a sum ERA over 18 and our offense has a lower OBP than Joey Gathright. That's not the coach. That's the players. And funny thing about firing the manager - no matter how many retread managers you go through, the roster stays the same. Jim Riggleman or whoever isn't some magical solution, and firing McLaren and giving the new guy a bit of a grace period only serves to put off all the discussions about the future that the people in charge should really be having right now as I type.
Don't swap out the manager. It serves no purpose. You can do it in the offseason and that'll be fine with me (as long as it's accompanied by other moves), but don't do it now, because it's not a move that needs to be made. It would serve no benefit to the team, and it may just kill McLaren's career, which would bother me a little bit now that I've improbably come to view him as a sympathetic character. Fix the roster instead. That's where the problem lies. Fix the roster, and then worry about the other things later, because a good coach - like a good closer - is a luxury about which only competitors need to worry.
Biggest Contribution: Adrian Beltre, +13.8%
Biggest Suckfest: Erik Bedard, -40.1%
Most Important AB: Betancourt single, +10.4%
Most Important Pitch: Duncan homer, -20.2%
Total Contribution by Pitcher(s): -43.5%
Total Contribution by Hitters: -6.5%
Total Contribution by Opposition: 0.0%
(What is this chart?)
Erik Bedard is messed up.
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I don't think it'll accomplish anything, I just think it'll happen
And it will serve only as a symbolic gesture to try to motivate the players. This season is doomed, and replacing the manager now won’t fix that, but there are a lot of other people above McLaren trying to salvage their jobs right now and replacing him after this embarassment in hopes of somehow motivating these players to start trying again (if they aren’t trying hard enough now, which, well, I dunno) might be how they try to salvage their own careers.
Though it’s clear that morale is low on this team right now, and McLaren’s managerial abilities aren’t exactly inspiring confidence rather than inspiring division, like with this Burke/Bedard/Washburn fiasco.
So we'll try to motivate the players by pretending like it was all McLaren's fault?
I think it would be more effective to bench/cut the guys who aren’t performing. But that’s just me.
Bad teams have low morale. There’s nothing McLaren (or anyone) could say to make the players happy again. They just need to win. Unfortunately they can’t, because they are bad.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 24, 2008 1:02 AM PDT up reply actions
No, I totally agree with you
I don’t think it’s right to put all of this on McLaren’s head, clearly he isn’t the beginning or the end of the problem, though he is part of it. Firing him won’t fix the team at all.
But that’s another thing, McLaren lacks the balls to hold his players accountable for their poor play, and do things like bench them when they take plays off. Like remember when Lopez [made all of those errors that were attributable to outright laziness?] I would have benched him because of those. Maybe the new manager will? I doubt it, but this guy is all about no accountability to his players, and that needs to change.
I don't think we have any way of knowing whether or not that's actually true
What evidence is there that McLaren doesn’t hold his players accountable?
by Jeff Sullivan on May 24, 2008 1:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, for one
Remember that play where Lopez misfielded a routine groundball from Vlad Guerrero, skipping off his wrist about10-15 ft. from him into center field? Vlad was able to move to 2nd because Lopez didn’t pursue that ball after the error at all, forcing Yuni to go after a ball he was much farther away from.
Lopez should have been benched for that, there was no excuse for just giving up on a play after an error. When has he ever punished a player for poor play with soooo much poor play going on?
He tried to bench Vidro when Clement came up and he's cutting into Kenji's playing time right now
Also, benching isn’t the only way to hold a player accountable. How should we know what McLaren says to Lopez about his occasional fuck-ups behind closed doors? For that matter, what reason do we have to believe that he doesn’t address these things in the clubhouse?
by Jeff Sullivan on May 24, 2008 1:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Well
I guess the question is, how many of these decisions are made by McLaren and how many are made by Bavasi. I am totallly with you in saying Bavasi is more responsible for this team’s failure than McLaren. Maybe he’s forced to play Vidro when he doesn’t want to because of Bavasi’s ineptitude. But is he forced to play Green vs. lefties or put such horrible lineups on the field? He’s not. Maybe he is just trying to mix things up to create a spark, but it’s never a good idea to put vastly inferior players in your lineup just to try to inspire somthing.
There are a lot of things wrong with his managerial skills that can’t be attributed to people above him.
Though, just to add, I think you are right
He is by no means the biggest thing wrong with this team. The majority of the blame lies squarely with the person who constructed this team and the players who are performing so badly below their career stats.
Right
McLaren isn’t a good manager. (Not to be a dick or anything but this is the very first sentence of the post.) If we were a better team, he would be a problem. But we’re not, so he’s not. Right now, the people in charge should be focusing on something else.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 24, 2008 1:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Well I totally agree anyways :P
He’s bad, but he’s not the worst aspect of this team, and removing him won’t fix anything. SO WHY ARE WE ARGUING?!? :P
That was arguing?
Dammit, I should’ve been meaner.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 24, 2008 1:34 AM PDT up reply actions
And, just to add to that
These players all know that their play on the field directly translates into the future of their career and the amount of money they could receive in the future, so it’s not in their best interests to just take games off or play below their ability just because the team sucks. So I don’t think they’re lazy, but when you don’t have confidence in the guys around you or the guys making the decisions, it’s got to be a little bit disheartening and I dunno, that might affect their performance a tiny bit. Not enough to account for this much suck from everyone, but a little bit.
Firing McLaren won’t fix anything, there is way too much mediocrity in this club all around for that to solve all of our problems.
Once again I'll mention the Washington Capitals
worst record in hockey at the quarter pole and an underachieving team. Their manager was a “players” coach who had nurtured a young team but was stuck in his ways and unable to motivate the team. They booted him and brought in a career minor league coach who has had success with all his teams (and was in the movie “Slapshot”) and had worked with a lot their players in the minors. Almost instantly the team responded to him. He shook up lines, changed their approach and the team en masse stepped up their game. He wasn’t afraid to call out veterans and gave the youngsters more responsibility. It worked, and the team was one the best after his arrival. Before the deadline when they got some help, there was no significant change in roster but the difference in the team was dramatic. Bruce Budreau will be the coach of the year for a team that kinda resembled the Mariners in talent and stupidity in front office. I was as down on the Caps then as I am now on the M’s, but if I didn’t see that team turn it around I might believe your points about the change in coaches. Yes, there are issues with the M’s talent, but when the whole team underachieves you gotta look at the coach.
Your favorite meme is dead
Baseball isn't hockey
A new manager couldn’t install a new system or shake up any lines. Unfortunately it’s just a completely different mechanism of action (and I say this as a guy who loved the Boudreau story).
by Jeff Sullivan on May 24, 2008 1:38 AM PDT up reply actions
yeah apples and oranges I know
You can’t really change a baseball teams gameplan like in hockey (defense first to wide open) but he brought an infectious attitude to the team that the players responded to. It was an undeniable change morale when he came in. I think a baseball coach can lose a team too. Shake the mother fucker up, what’s the worst that can happen. And as they say, you can’t fire the whole team.
Oh yeah, have you heard the classic Lee Elia tirade from when he managed the Cubbies?
Here it is.
bucky/lee_elia_br.mp3” target=”_blank”>http://www.speakeasy.org/bucky/lee_elia_br.mp3
Your favorite meme is dead
Wtf
Here it is, it’s awesome
bucky/elia_tirade.html” target=”_blank”>http://www.speakeasy.org/bucky/elia_tirade.html
Your favorite meme is dead
bad link
Here it is, It’s awesome
bucky/elia_tirade.html” target=”_blank”>http://www.speakeasy.org/bucky/elia_tirade.html
Your favorite meme is dead
Well, a manager could shake things up a little bit...
Reed to LF, Raul to DH, Turbo to … wherever it is that Turbos go to die…. Not that the next manager will, since my guess is that most baseball managers suck at least a little.
by Two Rs and Two Ls on May 24, 2008 3:12 AM PDT up reply actions
Calls for McClaren's head are indicative of false perceptions.
Many people tend to view professional sports teams as a traditional workplace on a grander scale. To do so is patently ridiculous. There are almost certainly some similarities, and I don’t dismiss outright the assertion that clubhouse (the ‘workplace’ in this analogy) conditions may have some effect on performance. It’s just that the effect is so small it’s barely worth mentioning.
The bigger problem with the clubhouse-as-workplace school of thought is that the stakes are much different. I manage a retail business. The people that are on my staff know that if they do a good job, they’ll get raises, bonuses, more hours, etc. They also know that if they don’t do well I will fire them and they’ll be out of a job. I know that if I keep my staff happy they’ll be more productive, my job will be easier, store will make more money and my boss will be happy. This is basically the way it works across the employer/employee spectrum.
If Jose Vidro/Richie Sexson/Jarrod Washburn/etc. are terrible, the worst case scenario is that they lose their spot on the roster. The money is still guaranteed, and the chances are good that most of them will be picked up by other teams. In addition, any player that has made it to the Majors for any extended period of time is unlikely to have motivational issues. So, any player that performs poorly enough to lose a roster spot and not be signed by another club was on their last contract in any case.
Even though I’ve proofread this post a few times, I have that sinking feeling that it’s really convoluted and hard to read. I have been drinking barley wine tonight, after all. So to summarize; people want McClaren fired because they think an MLB team operates in roughly the same manner as their place of employment. These people are dumb.
-aaron c.
by Aaron Campeau on May 24, 2008 1:53 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
John McLaren is better than any manager we've had in ages
As sad as that is to believe. Yes, that still puts him in the “not good” category but I’m not a big fan of punting him just because the team sucks balls. Even worse, there really is no one waiting in the wings that’s an interesting candidate. There’s no rootable Dan Rohn-type waiting to take over. Punting McLaren solves nothing. Poor guy. He really did try.
I was hoping I'd make the first Dan Rohn reference.
I know the chance of bringing him in is about as likely as the M’s making the playoffs at this point, but where is that guy these days?
by Two Rs and Two Ls on May 24, 2008 3:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Answering my own question
Apparently Rohn is with Fresno (SF Giants).
by Two Rs and Two Ls on May 24, 2008 3:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, I mean.
I’ve argued the same thing, here on USSM. McLaren should be fired because he is terrible at his job. But that’s not while he’ll be fired. He’ll be fired because the team is doing poorly, which is not his fault. If he were fired specifically for the reason that he is bad at his job and there are many. many, many better people, that would be okay. He’s going to be fired because the starters suck, and that’s less so.
Though I don’t yet see him as sympathetic, but I have worked in many places in the past that the person in charge really, really sucks. I don’t have much sympathy for someone that is clearly bad at their job, even if it has nothing to do with the current struggles.
...and now I'm here
*here AND on USSM
I’m drunk. Though I think I type pretty coherently for a drunk guy, yeah?
...and now I'm here
At least if McLaren goes
he outlasted Wilkerson.
by Two Rs and Two Ls on May 24, 2008 3:13 AM PDT reply actions
But he wasn't able to outlast Vidro
And no one wants to be remembered for that.
by JoeyJoJoJuniorShabadoo on May 24, 2008 4:23 AM PDT up reply actions
My biggest disappointment is Bedard.
I think he’s a “loser”.
At the beginning of the season we were starting to get on a roll, and the douche runs away from starting against his old team “Ow ow ow my hip hurts!”
The other pitchers get their schedules messed up, the team gets owned by the supposedly lowly Orioles.
The other day during a losing streak our “ace” gets an unusual 5 run cushion to start the game, and gives it right back and more to lose a game where there was unusual support from the bats.
And todays suckfest.
Sure he pitches well enough (to lose) somedays when there’s no run support and no pressure, and he can be the sore luck loser.
We traded away a substantial chunk of the future for a loser.
I remember I at one time said I think we need to be prepared for the possibility that Bedard just sucks
I was taken to task by both Mathew and Graham for saying this if I remember correctly. I still stand by my assesment though. He is a crappy Vagina McVaginastein.
I hope one day he proves me wrong, I really do
but right now, he sucks. If it is because he is still injured he needs to stop going out there every 5 days to suck. We get enough of that noise from Washburn and Tits.
You are confusing results with skills.
Don’t confuse results and skills.
by Graham MacAree on May 24, 2008 6:54 AM PDT up reply actions
That is what drives me crazy though
Clearly he should not suck, yet he does. I’m sure my bitterness and contempt for the team is just causing me to be irrational.
This is dead on
a true ace would pitch through the pain because that sort of thing brings up his teammates and inspires them, thats what an ace does. An ace isn’t afraid to face anyone, the other teams should be afraid to face him. And I know what I’m first starting out my day, which is analogous to starting out a season, if I find wake up and find out I’m out of milk, bam! my whole routine is off. Now I cannot make breakfast
and I don’t get the energy I usually get in the morning and so I get off to a really slow start on my day (or season). see how avoiding your duty as team ace can effect the whole team? why doesn’t anyone talk about this?
and lets not forget about the pitching to win mentality. a true ace would buckle down when he’s in a tight low scoring game. he needs to help that offense out by not giving up any runs. and when he does get some run support he needs to make sure not to waste it. that’s how winners pitch, how aces pitch.
by Matthew on May 24, 2008 5:19 AM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
who's shocked? are you shocked? I'm shocked.
No, really, I am. Totally shocked. Like scuffle my feet across carpet then touch metal kind of shocked, but times a million. Really, really shocked. Like when I found out how bad this team was. That level of shock.
What I guess I’m trying to say is that this is about as surprising as the liver cirrhosis I’m going to get when I’m 40.
Maybe next time we should build our team around reliable things
like offense and defense.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 24, 2008 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Why is this team still hanging on to Vidro and Sexson?
Both are clearly finished. Yes, I know that they have to pay them for the rest of 2008 (probably more for Vidro with that vesting option), but a line-up with Reed in left, Ibanez at first, and Clement at DH (I’d prefer catcher, though) would be more entertaining and probably better than having those two ass-hats finding creative ways to get out every game.
With regards to Mac, I can’t blame him for the entirety of this mess. He’s not the one swinging at pitches out of the strike zone, he’s not the one booting routine plays on defense, and he’s certainly not the one that signed Washburn and Batista to horrible contracts, traded for Vidro, and re-signed a declining Johjima. It’s like trying to win with the world’s most god-awful hand.
God, do I hate this team.
by JoeyJoJoJuniorShabadoo on May 24, 2008 4:47 AM PDT reply actions
Ibanez transitioning to playing 1B midseason - not easy
And I certainly don’t see Maclaren or Bavasi attempting it.
I think Pat Gillick should be forced to trade for Vidro
Part of this mess is still his fault, that trickery Canuck.
Coldly devouring reason as if it were a delectable snack
At least Ichiro understands the severity of the situation
“Usually, I enjoy Japanese beer, but given the situation, I wouldn’t care if it was Japanese beer, American beer or beer from Papua New Guinea,” he said.
Legendary.
Bavasi is the one....
that needs to go ASAP. Firing McLaren does nothing. He’ll effectively be fired when Bavasi is fired though.
Sadly, I don’t even know if firing Bavasi will do anything. The brass will just bring in the another group of baseball “good ‘ol boys” to interview that don’t differ from Bavasi in the slightest.
I just know that I’d like someone else shopping players for the next 6 weeks.
Firing Bavasi isn't going to do much
but I think you’re wrong about who they’d bring in to interview. That may or may not be a problem, but the real problem is that the GM of the Mariners is ultimately GM in title only.
Recall that the A's fired Macha
after a winning season, after they made the playoffs.
The M’s are no doubt going to end up with a losing season, or close enough to it. If there was a manager like Geren (A’s current manager) waiting in the wings, a manager familiar with many players on the club, then yes, the Mariners could get rid of “Squinty” (good name) and smoothly install his heir. No such manager exists that I know of.
Sure, “Squinty” is making some dumb moves here and there, but not that they were outside conventional wisdom. IMO what the M’s should do at this point (internally, and not announce to the world) is the following:
(1) set the lineup, with a fixed pattern of replacement (e.g. catcher Kenji gets game off every fourth game, no matter what). No variation no rookies except as scheduled.
(2) begin each game as if the team has been winning the last three in a row. No fire alarms, no “WhaddaWE-DO???!!!” strategy sessions with the coaches. If the players don’t think their performance will be discussed in the next day’s “Evacuate Dunkirk” coaches session, they may relax and play better.
(3) Post game remarks. “We lost. But we have so-and-so pitching tomorrow, and I have every indication that tomorrow’s game will be a “W”.” Sounds moronic, and it sounds un-informative. But so what? Sure baseball is “entertainment”, but only on the field. Who cares, if you’re the manager, if you act illiterate to the press. The point is, you don’t want the typical McLaren remarks that he is issuing right now, which are..
“This bad. Real bad. As a baseball team, we hate it. We hate losing.”
So? In other news….Earth still spinning….
McLaren should stay on the job through October, and simply STFU. Say “We won”” or “We lost”. Then talk about the next game. The “woe is me” about the past (1) does nothing for the past (2) makes the players play worse in the next game.
"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer
by One won lost won on May 24, 2008 10:26 AM PDT reply actions

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