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Around SBN: 2012 Africa Cup Of Nations Final

Hey Guess What

Wbc_029_tiny by Jeff Sullivan on in Seattle Mariners Stats

After yesterday's game, we now officially have the worst team defense in baseball.

Suck it, Giants.

Comment 260 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Read More: Raul Ibanez (LF - PHI), Wladimir Balentien (RF - CIN), Yuniesky Betancourt (SS - KAN), Richie Sexson (1B - NYY)

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We are the worst!

We are the worst! We are the worst!

by seattlebruin on May 13, 2008 12:07 PM PDT reply actions  

Woooooooo!

High Five!

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 13, 2008 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bill Nye before he was the science guy...

I remember the old days of “Almost Live”

by Fin on May 13, 2008 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've got those old episodes.

My dad taped em years ago. Great stuff.

by BrianL on May 13, 2008 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

And for those that don't...

King 5 still has the page they put up to promote the reunion show a few years ago. It has a few clips on there.

The Lame List was the greatest.

But of the sketches on that page, the Green River Dance is the best.

Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum

by PositivePaul on May 14, 2008 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wonderful.

I’ve almost given up on this year. Not the TEAM mind you, but this year. The sooner I can accept the fact that we mortgaged the future for the present, and yet the present still sucks, the happier I will be.

Once I accept the fact I can just watch the games because I love baseball, and not worry so much about individual wins and the standings.

BTW, if I had booted a ball twice in softball like Lopez did on that play, I’d STILL be getting shit from my teammates. That was more than a tad frustrating.

I like midgets more than I should.

by Thingray on May 13, 2008 12:12 PM PDT reply actions  

I was busy this weekend.

Missing out on watching a few games took a toll on my pessimism.

I like midgets more than I should.

by Thingray on May 13, 2008 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Basically the kids don't want to play baseball, so they are trying to lose on purpose

but every other team they play also wants to lose so they can go home and play video games. They keep winning until they are at the finals and they finally lose to Denver. Its a good episode, especially since we can relate this to the Mariners right now.

by Fin on May 13, 2008 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm so excited to play the Padres

For the outside chance that the game will go 45 innings

by seattlebruin on May 13, 2008 12:20 PM PDT reply actions  

I still think he's pitching today

and I just realized that SDSU isn’t in Chula Vista. I thought it was a hell of a lot farther away than it actually is.

by seattlebruin on May 13, 2008 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Every time I go down there to visit one of my best friends

My wife asks why we don’t consider living there. She hates it when I always answer that Safeco Field is the only place I have front row seats.

by Sec 108 on May 13, 2008 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Cause the weather sucks.

Hot = bad.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on May 13, 2008 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

San Diego is not hot

Unless you consider 84 degrees, every day, all summer long to be hot, in which case anything south of the 45th parallel will be too hot. San Diego’s real problem is that it’s obscenely expensive. Stupid idyllic climate.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 13, 2008 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's crazy

but then again, it’s supposed to hit 90 in Portland on Friday and Saturday, so I guess crazy is relative.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 13, 2008 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

BULLSHIT

I gotta check the forecast.

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 13, 2008 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

ok 83

still pretty warm, but not 90s

the other angels fan

by Eyebrows on May 13, 2008 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was pretty surprised too

it takes a pretty severe heat wave to get Seattle into the 90’s this time of year. 83’s about perfect.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 13, 2008 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was just going by what they said on the news this morning.

I’d be surprised if it actually got that high though.

I like midgets more than I should.

by Thingray on May 13, 2008 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I do.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on May 13, 2008 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Cameron > Cuddy.

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on May 13, 2008 1:15 PM PDT reply actions  

I know it's the truth

but that picture still makes me sad.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 13, 2008 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because I don't want KGJ to be the worst player in baseball

even though empirically I know he is. It’s the death of a large part of my Mariner fandom from the 90’s.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 13, 2008 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is true

and I’ve got enough saved video clips of that swing to last me several years. I just hope he has the good grace to go when he needs to go and not hang on for way longer than he should.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 13, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Everybody hangs on way longer than they should

I don’t think anyone deals with the realization that they’re old and bad very well.

by Jeff Sullivan on May 13, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Griffey was that team for me when I was little.
It’s the death of a large part of my Mariner fandom from the 90’s.

EVERYONE’s Mariner fandom from the 90’s. Junior was our great hope, and I very literally grew up with him. I was four when he came up and six when I went to my first M’s game with him. My dad always used to tell me just to watch Griffey sometimes – not to even watch the game. He was that special of a player.

And I was there in ‘95 when he slid into home to send us to the ALCS. I remember not really knowing what was going on except that it was past my bedtime. It was probably three or four years before I realized how special that game really was. I have tons of ticket stubs littering my room, from Safeco, the Rose Bowl, Pauley, Qwest, Husky Stadium, you name it. I just wish I still had the stub from that game. One of the best days of my life, retroactively.

A huge part of me wants to see Junior hit a bomb off the Hit It Here Cafe wearing Mariners blue because it would bring back all those memories of 91-99 when he was the best player on the planet. Hell, why do you think that cafe is in right field, anyway? I’m grown enough now to know that he’s nothing more than a shell of the player we once saw, but I still want to see it anyway.

Bringing Griffey back has absolutely not baseball reasoning behind it. I know he’s a terrible defensive player (hell, he’s even starting to drop the ones he DOES get to, if last night is any evidence), and that he doesn’t hit well enough to be anything more than an ~average DH at age 38.

Maybe I’m being too sentimental, but I loved Griffey. He WAS the Mariners to me when I was little. If we’re not going to be good this year, I wouldn’t mind at all getting to see the Junior reunion tour. Even if he’s a disaster on the field, I’d still enjoy it. It would just be an everyday reminder of how awesome growing up right when the Mariners got good was.

by seattlebruin on May 13, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Me too.

Insert sarcastic “surprised face” here.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 13, 2008 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry, that comment was super emo

I just really liked Griffey and would love to see him finish his career here.

Providing we don’t break the bank and praying he’s not too much of a trainwreck.

by seattlebruin on May 13, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yep

I fully endorse a Griffey trade as long as Clement/Wlad/Aumont/Ramirez/Triunfel do not leave us.

Clement especially.

by Graham MacAree on May 13, 2008 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hence why I keep repeating

I’d be happy to send em Johnson or Feierabend. I’d also like it if we re-worked his contract, but if they spend the $16M and they weren’t gonna spend it on the roster otherwise, hell it’s not my money.

by seattlebruin on May 13, 2008 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, if it happens I will be shocked

I’m definitely afraid of it happening, but it’s irrational.

by Graham MacAree on May 13, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Even if Barry Bonds WAS the best player on the planet

I have decided that he is an asshole and jerk so that in my Seattle-centric world, Junior can still be the best :(.

But Junior was really, really, really damn good, even if Bonds was better.

by seattlebruin on May 13, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also, we need to consider the "no chemical additives" + CF/LF factor

Barry’s peak as a player comes after he starts visiting Balco for cream and clear.

by eponymous_coward on May 13, 2008 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm only talking 1991-1999

Bonds is quite clearly the better player.

by Graham MacAree on May 13, 2008 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm with Graham on this

I wish people would stop thinking Barry got good all of a sudden in 2000.

by Sec 108 on May 13, 2008 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not enough at bats.

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on May 13, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Holy crap

2004 – 232 BB, 120 IBB, .609 OBP

by seattlebruin on May 13, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

45 homers in 373 at bats.

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on May 13, 2008 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

263 OPS+

and that isn’t even the highest of his career

by Graham MacAree on May 13, 2008 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know

2002 is a tick better.

...and Pac-Bell is murder on lefties.

by JI on May 13, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

He's fifty points clear of the third best mark of ALL-TIME for OBP in 2004

(he owns the second best season)

I will also argue that had it not been for WWII, Ted Williams may very well have eclipsed the .600 OBP mark at some point

by seattlebruin on May 13, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yup.

Although to be fair, it’s hard to do that when you get IBBed 120 times.

by JI on May 13, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

165-170 OPS+ in CF isn't exactly jaking it.

Barry’s godfather’s peak in OPS is around 180, and he was more in the 165-175 range, like Griffey was at his peak.

by eponymous_coward on May 13, 2008 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Griffey's highest OPS+ was 171

Barry Bonds beat that 5 times between 91 and 99

by Graham MacAree on May 13, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right, playing LF.

Position being played does make a difference when evaluating offensive contribution.

by eponymous_coward on May 13, 2008 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Legitimate question:

Could Bonds have been a plus defensive centerfielder?

by JI on May 13, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

With his tools, why the hell not

I’d say in his prime he could have easily been average to plus

by seattlebruin on May 13, 2008 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

was Griffey even?

some stats don’t think he was.

by Matthew on May 13, 2008 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would say he was plus on sheer athleticism

until he started to slow down in the late 90s. Of course I can’t really back that up…

by JI on May 13, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I dunno, man

Griffey’s OPS peak is comparable to Willie Mays, like I said. This is close to a Williams-DiMaggio discussion (except with Ted WIlliams being able to field and run, but still playing LF).

by eponymous_coward on May 13, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, it isn't

But then I am not in the mood to talk about Jr’s defensive deficiencies today.

by Sec 108 on May 13, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just don't see it

Bonds absolutely kills him on OBP. His worst season over than stretch would rank as Griffey’s 4th best.

by Graham MacAree on May 13, 2008 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Williams was a better hitter than DiMaggio, which was my point.

And by “better” I mean “arguably the best hitter who never used cream and clear”.

by eponymous_coward on May 13, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

exactly

since people thinking DiMaggio was better are also clearly wrong.

by Matthew on May 13, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

you know what's a dumb debate?

most unbreakable record debates.

(not picking on you, your question is actually fine, it just sparked a memory)

by Matthew on May 13, 2008 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Cy Youngs 511 wins!

Fernando Tatis’ 2 GS in one inning!

by JI on May 13, 2008 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fun fact:

My uncle did some stats research for a baseball org, possibly SABR. He found that in all sports, the 56 game hitting streak is the only time in any sport that a player was actually “Hot” and not just meeting his own probability. I hope I’m explaining that right, I hadn’t spoken with him about it for like 5 years.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 14, 2008 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

This word, "underrated"?

I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 13, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

People tend to undervalue how great his hitting was

because he missed 5 prime years and much of his value was tied up in OBP.

by JI on May 13, 2008 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think people undervalue those missed years

age 24, 25 and 26 seasons. Absolute giant years for an established hitter.

by Matthew on May 13, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Which people?

I’m not trying to pick a fight, but Ted Williams is pretty much universally regarded as one of the, if not the, best hitters of all time.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 13, 2008 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

When people say hitter, they tend to mean batting average.

He is often compared to Tony Gwynn and players like that. If the MSM believed he was one of the greatest offensive forces ever the debate would be between him and Ruth.

by JI on May 13, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yup

Also, the best regular season record from 1946-1950, the years we hear OMG TEH YANKEES AND DODGERS?

The Boston Red Sox. Led by… Ted WIlliams.

by eponymous_coward on May 13, 2008 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

But do we really know how much roids helped him?

Bonds was already close to the best hitter of all-time before Roids. I don’t know, I’m not sure I believe Steroids can add 35 HR to your bat in one year. I don’t know.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 13, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Go find me other players who hit career peaks at age 36.

Even guys like Edgar Martinez, Patron Saint of the Late Career Peak, peaked at 32.

by eponymous_coward on May 13, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ted Williams

.388/.526/.731 aged 38.

by JI on May 13, 2008 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hank Aaron

.327/.410/.669 aged 37
.301/.402/.643 aged 40

Williams:

.316/.451/.645 age 40

by JI on May 13, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nope, not his peak.

1941: 235 OPS+ in 143 games
1957: 233 OPS+ in 132 games

by eponymous_coward on May 13, 2008 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

and the '57 season was the one I referenced.

Which you could argue was more impressive considering there was a much wider talent pool than there was in 1941.

by JI on May 13, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

it is more impressive

adjusted lines:
41 – .390/.537/.705
57 – .392/.529/.741

by Matthew on May 13, 2008 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

games played makes a difference

Also, check out the year before/year after for both years.

There’s no way you can say Williams in late 30’s = Williams in 20’s.

by eponymous_coward on May 13, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

No I agree Bonds is unique in that aspect

but some of the greatest layers ever were fairly consistent into their late 30s/early40s.

by JI on May 13, 2008 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right, but consistent =! career peak

Esepcially when it’s going from 180-200 OPS+ to 220-250 in your late 30s.

THAT is why he’s not the best without PEDs.

by eponymous_coward on May 13, 2008 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nobody is arguing that Bonds didn't take PEDs

and that those PEDs didn’t turn him into superman.

I can’t remember where I read it, but there was an article that played out the odds of a 37 year old man legitimately hitting 73 homers—and those odds were worse than having a LD% of .008

by JI on May 13, 2008 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hank Aaron?

best OPS+ years were in his mid/late 30s

by Matthew on May 13, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Check his home/road splits in Atlanta for HRs

Basically, Hank Aaron went from a crappy HR park in Milwaukee to a good home run park in Atlanta.

If you look at his ROAD career, he peaks around the same time as everyone else… but his HOME career peaks late.

I say “park effects”.

by eponymous_coward on May 13, 2008 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Does it?

So OPS+ is adjusted perfectly for Safeco screwing righties and being OK for lefties? I thought it was a bit broad-brush for that.

Basically, I’m saying that Aaron figured out how to work his park to his advantage in his mid-late 30’s, and he couldn’t do that in his 20’s because County Stadium didn’t offer an advantage, and that if you put 25 year old Hank Aaron in the same park playing home games as 35 year old Hank Aaron for a couple of years, I think 25 year old Hank Aaron wins, and the road splits seem to bear that out.

Bill Dickey is another guy who started showing extreme home/road splits later in his career, FWIW… and it looks like he also got a boost from the park.

by eponymous_coward on May 13, 2008 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm six months older than Junior

Every time he’d do something amazing, I’d think “he’s (insert age at time of awesome thing), I’m (same age), and I work in a financial services company. What the hell did I do wrong?

All I want out of a Junior return is the Crash Davis “one more day in the sun”. Especially if this season keeps up the way it’s going – I will unashamedly give in to unabashed sentimentality for the rest of the summer if the M’s still blow and Griffey’s in town.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 13, 2008 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right now, I'm the same way with Felix

right down to being about six months older than he is.

by seattlebruin on May 13, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

You know what f'ing sucks?

Being a few days older than Player A.

Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum

by PositivePaul on May 13, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Griffey's older than Player A

so it can’t suck that bad…

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 13, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

My brother is a day younger than Sidney Crosby

And he’s finishing his sophomore year in college. Feels kind of weird.

by Fin on May 13, 2008 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm depressed now

Most of the kids playing AAA ball nowadays were born in or around the year I graduated high school.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 13, 2008 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Those were the days

And when you would dress in your little league uniform and dream of playing in the big leagues one day.

by Fin on May 13, 2008 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Strasburg would be my peer

Also Tim Lincecum was a senior in high school when I was a freshman, and I was friends with seniors when I was a freshman. Also, he went to the rival high school, Liberty.

by Fin on May 13, 2008 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Me as well

and yet I still want him on this team

by seattlebruin on May 13, 2008 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why not?

We’ve got nothing to lose except more games and more money and more talent.

I'm more like I am now than I've ever been.

by ralphie81 on May 13, 2008 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm okay with

a league average DH as long as we don’t give up too much for him. Add Griffey, subtract Vidro, that’s got to be worth a couple of wins, even if Griffey does suck in the outfield.

by wysiwyg on May 13, 2008 2:26 PM PDT reply actions  

Wrong

You’re gonna pay out the ass for him. Why keep mortgaging the future

Aussie, Aussie, Aussie

by Brian Floyd on May 13, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd like to call a moratorium on "he's going to cost too much"

because I think the Junior supporters KNOW that he’ll cost too much, which is why we always add “as long as we don’t ridiculously overpay for him” to the “bring back Junior” comments

by seattlebruin on May 13, 2008 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Anything >0 is "too much"

and you’re right, it doesn’t freaking matter.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 13, 2008 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Random bit of information:

Jason Giambi has a BABIP of .128

by JI on May 13, 2008 2:44 PM PDT reply actions  

Jesus Christ

That’s got to be historically unlucky.

by BrianL on May 13, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but his LD% is .008.

So, yeah, he’s pretty much right in line.

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on May 13, 2008 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

(this was a joke by the way)

(albeit a bad one)

(and after this, I’ll be done talking in parenthetically)

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on May 13, 2008 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dammit. "talking parenthetically"...not "in parenthetically".

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on May 13, 2008 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was wondering about that...

You’d need 12500 at-bats to have a hope of a 0.008 LD%

by Graham MacAree on May 13, 2008 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

LD avg + .12

So say a player has a 25% LD rate. His expected BABIP is .370.

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on May 13, 2008 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right.

The .120 is a pretty general number.

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on May 13, 2008 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

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