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Hey You Know Whose Defense Sucks? Ours

Tiny by Jeff on in The More You Know Comment 769 comments

Updated THT team page:

Teamdefense5_12_medium

To date, the Mariners have turned 19 fewer balls in play into outs than you'd expect given their groundballs/fly balls/line drives against. This has cost them ~15 runs and goes a long way towards explaining why the team ERA is higher than the team FIP despite a pretty good strand rate and a better-than-average number of infield flies. That's really bad.

Not convinced that defense matters? While screwing around at one point over the weekend, Matthew and I saw that the difference in BABIP against for the 2001 and 2007 Mariners was 57 points. Over a full season, 57 points of BABIP equals about 250 balls in play, or somewhere between 175-200 runs. 175-200 runs. From defense alone. Now, granted, the 2001 Mariners were kind of historically awesome with the glove, but the difference between even just a "normal" good and a "normal" bad defense can easily be 6-10 wins. That's huge. Just look at the Rays' turnaround - this sort of thing can make a world of difference.

Team defense is the most underrated aspect of the game today. I'm not sure exactly how many organizations "get it", but the Mariners very clearly do not, and it's killing them on the field. These guys don't score nearly enough runs to be able to justify giving them away for free with bad defense.

God dammit Yuni.

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That's bad.

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip

by Phildopip on May 12, 2008 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We're not the worst!

We’re not the worst! We’re not the worst!

by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 12:58 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I totally agree with this

“Team defense is the most underrated aspect of the game today.”

This is so completely true. I think it’s hard to really understand, because it’s not always correlated with specific players who get a lot of chances. Some of it (though less than I used to think) is probably luck, too. But we’re now in year two of abysmal defense, just as the Blue Jays and others are right at their customary spot at the top. Some teams clearly do get this.

Two other observations:
1) the magnitude of the Rays’ improvement is tough to overstate. They went from once-in-a-decade awful to above average. I’d love to see how many runs/wins they save at the end of this year – it could be in the neighborhood of 10-15 WINS.
2) The Giants knew they had a bad offense this year, and so they threw guys like Brian Bocock into the line-up to at least safeguard their defense. Ooops. This says that many teams still view the key to team defense is having a a shortstop who makes the occasional flashy play :whistles, looks around:. It also shows how important black holes in a defense can be, even in positions that get fewer chances, like left field or 3b. The Giants traded a decent fielding 3B (who scouts hated) and replaced him with Jose Castillo, who makes Justin Leone look like Brooks Robinson. In summary, the Giants are basically the Mariners, and… LEONE FOR THIRD!

by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:06 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Going strictly by BABIP (which obviously isn't perfect but whatever)

were the Rays to keep up their current pace, their 2008 defense would be 248 plays better than their 2007 defense would be with the same pitching staff. Using the 1 play = 0.8 runs standard, that’s nearly 200 runs, which is nearly 20 wins.

20 wins.

by Jeff on May 12, 2008 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fred McGriff.

Or Wade Boggs.

Or fucking Miguel Cairo.

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip

by Phildopip on May 12, 2008 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do they?

Clearly getting Bartlett in the Garza deal helped a ton. But I don’t know – I mean, maybe so, but I don’t think promoting Longoria had to do w/his defense. And maybe they knew that Iwamura, who was a bad defensive 3b last year would be a good defensive 2b this year…. but maybe not.

I like ‘em, and things have worked out, but I’m not totally convinced that they were all planned out.

by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I kinda covered this

http://www.draysbay.com/2008/5/11/507490/36-games-in-our-mvp-s-are

Thief!

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Defense wins championships.

(first non-ironic usage in memory)

by JI on May 12, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe not championships, but...

Look at the “surprise” teams and their Def. Eff. rankings:
2007 Rockies: .703 2006 Rockies: .690
2006 Tigers .712 2005 Tigers: .704
2005 White Sox .720 2004 White Sox .701

Those shocker teams all saw at least some jump in Def. Eff, and naturally a great defense combined with the right type of pitcher for that defense (so for Webb, good infield defense) can make magic happen.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It might not have all been planned

but I wasn’t speaking solely in terms of team defense. The Rays get how to build baseball teams. I’m never more sure of it than I am after this past weekend.

by Matthew on May 12, 2008 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well there's a teaser

tell me more of this newfound certainty.

Which moves were made specifically to improve the defense (aside from the Bartlett acquisition)?

by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't say any other moves were made specifically for the defense

but defense is a factor in pretty much every position player decision they make. As it should be.

by Jeff on May 12, 2008 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If this is true

how did they manage to assemble the worst defense in baseball last year? How did they decide that Brendan Harris was a good SS option, and then think that a good replacement would be Josh Wilson? If they knew Iwamura was a decent IF option, why did they set him up to fail at 3b? Who, seeing that the guy was a much worse fielding 3b than Eric Freakin’ Hinske says, “what we need to do is move him to an up-the-middle defensive spot?”

I guess the larger question is, how does defense factor in every decision? Is it a scouting thing?

by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Again

The Rays had every intent of moving Aki to second. What you ignore is that the Rays actually had B.J. Upton and Ben Zobrist playing SS/2B early on last year after Upton had failed at third base and before he moved to the outfield.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, and those guys totally sucked defensively

The Rays have tried 25 different combinations, and all of them have been various shades of putrid. Now, they’ve rolled the dice again and come up winners. Ok, that’s cool, and my hat is off to them. But I’m not yet convinced that they won because they’re supergeniuses. These are the same supergeniuses who used Zobrist/Harris/Wilson at SS and Upton at 2b and Iwamura at 3b LAST YEAR. This can’t be blamed on Chuck LaMar.

by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aki wasn't that bad at third base imo

But maybe those are my homer glasses, he just had balls go over his head and throw the short/third gap a lot.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm looking at the THT stats

and he was, statistically, the worst 3b in the American league last year.

by marc w on May 12, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Homer glasses then.

It seemed like Wiggy/Harris were far worse at their jobs, but I won’t argue that he wasn’t below average at best.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My answer would be that it takes a while to undo Chuck LaMar

Friedman & co. have only been around for so long, and for the first few years they didn’t have any kind of opportunity to win. However, they recognized that the window was about to open, and as such they’ve now built an actual baseball team. Until now it was just a bunch of stopgaps and tryouts as they bided their time.

As for defense factoring into every decision, I don’t say that because I know for sure – I just say that because I’ve been assured time and time again the the Rays are the smartest front office in baseball, and I imagine the smartest front office in baseball understands the importance of defense.

by Jeff on May 12, 2008 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chuck LaMar is a Bad Man

but he’s not responsible for the Rays defense in 2007 (at least not directly). We’re not talking about a gradual change here, we’re talking about a 20 win difference OVER NIGHT. This is either the best plan ever, or it’s a lot of luck. Given the overlap here, I’m thinking luck has a lot to do with it. Again, that doesn’t make them a stupid FO, but this is the SAME FO that trotted out the worst defense in a generation last year.

by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well,

It seems to me that a smart FO would be ok with fielding a crappy defence under the following conditions:

1) If they’re unable to compete that year and
2) If rapid roster turnover is possible.

by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

perhaps

but you’d think a really smart FO would be able to get replacement level production given three cracks at it. Park adjusted and factoring in defense, I’m not sure they got that from anyone at SS/2B last year. sub .300 OBP PLUS historically bad defense? Wow! That’s Bocockian, right there.

They were unable to compete last year, and if I’m crediting them with anything, it’s the biggest rope-a-dope in baseball history. I wonder if fielders were instructed not to chase balls headed into the hole.

I just think a smart FO tries to show progress and reward their young pitching staff. If the Rays really did punt 15 games last year due to defense, I just don’t see how that can be called smart. The best we can say is that they maximized their output given the players they had available, but that still doesn’t work, at least at SS. I don’t know.

by marc w on May 12, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They may have been instructed not to

I mean, at some point seeing the ball roll by you after going as hard as you can gets old. Ask Harris/Wigginton/Cantu.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm wondering if Sexson didn't get told this

he doesn’t even move laterally anymore. At all. He was abysmal last year, and may be worse now.

by marc w on May 12, 2008 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It takes a while to undo other people's mistakes

you have to play with what you’re given.

You don’t think it’s any coincidence they traded Young for a competant SS?

by JI on May 12, 2008 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, that's great

But 20 wins difference didn’t come from that move, as important as it was.

by marc w on May 12, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I wouldn't say that Bartlett was the key focus of the deal

To be fair, we were looking at Lincecum and Adam Miller (got offered Cliff Lee) and while I’m guessing a shortstop or two may have also been mentioned I think the Rays would’ve been okay getting someone like Adam Everett at a later point if Lincecum for Delmon is an option.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree, but at the same time he wasn't the key piece

The Twins tried offering Bonser (and others) instead of Garza and the Rays were pretty deadset on getting him.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

So would I. Again, SS was a massive, oozing chest wound and they fixed it cheaply and effectively. But because the wound was so obvious, I’m not sure it takes amazing Mental Powers to make an upgrade. What I don’t really get is how moving Iwamura and Upton have worked out so freaking well. Hmm, you guys have failed at easier positions; let’s make your job tougher…. and then it works.

by marc w on May 12, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Player toolsets

And trust me, Upton pisses me off because he still makes mistakes, but like Carl he makes up for them with speed, and he has a cannon for an arm.

Iwamura has grand range, it was just a matter of getting him in position to play it, he actually said he was the best shortstop on the team, but apparently the Rays wouldn’t let him move mid-season last year.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Question:

How did Crawford not end up in centerfield?

by JI on May 12, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He refuses to bat leadoff/play center.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is one of the issues with Carl

He’s a relatively quiet (nationally at least) guy, but he’s got some attitude himself. Essentially he refuses to play center and bat lead off.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They could

But at the same time B.J. said he would only agree to move to CF if that was the last move he’d make.

So essentially we’re going to have a CF playing LF and a RF playing CF for the next few years until Upton likely bolts for a record setting deal.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You could always trade everybody.

(see my baseball Mogul strategy)

by JI on May 12, 2008 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can maybe understand not wanting to hit leadoff

but not wanting to play CF seems kind of strange to me…

by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He doesn't "feel comfortable" in center.

The Rays even lowered the left field wall so he could make “Torii Hunter plays” and get his name out there more.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh and as for leading off

Carl sees himself as a middle of the order guy, and has said he’d love to play in a “homerun ballpark”.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I could very well understand that type of thing

and it’s not like he doesn’t have any power anyway.

The CF thing is still weird to me, because Torii Hunter is a CF, and aren’t all the big name defensive OFs playing center?

by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I don't really get his point.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Mariners could use a good defensive leftfielder.

Plus I’ve always wanted a player I could call “Hot Carl.”

by JI on May 12, 2008 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carl for Ichiro and Putz?

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah seriously.

I had no idea. What a prick.

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh I know this one!

Hacking on the first pitch and refusing to walk!

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't know that one, sorry.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A lot of casual fans hate Ichiro.

“Ichiro hurts this team by not diving for flyballs.”

“Ichiro hurts this team by not speaking English.”

Some of the accusations were pretty stupid. Eventually it evolved into a meme in this community (well before I showed up). In jest we’ll say things like

“Ichiro hurts this team by not shanking Vidro.”

“Ichiro hurts this team because he’s not gritty.”

by BrianL on May 12, 2008 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But Ichiro is awesome.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We know this.

Our casual fans are pretty stupid. Not LAA stupid, but still pretty stupid.

by BrianL on May 12, 2008 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's a play on Ichiro's move to CF last year

and how Adam Jones should be our CF instead of trade bait. Led to this hilarious thread which included statements such as “JOSE VIDRO HURTS THIS TEAM BY EATING ALL THE FOOD IN THE CLUBHOUSE. THE OTHER PLAYERS ARE MALNOURISHED!”

by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was my favourite thread ever

until Question? happened.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Question was the greatest thing ever

not just threads, EVER. Between the sheer strangeness of the question to the fact that it disappeared while we were still talking about it…

by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you think the fonts on the on the SBN 1.0 pages

look different than the ones on the SBN 2.0 pages?

by JI on May 12, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't.

Though I had some trouble getting my standard LL fonts back when I upgraded to IE7. Stupid font-smoothing.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can still embed videos...

Just paste the embed code from Youtube or wherever. See.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Failure is me.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jeff hates video embedding

and he is represses us when ever we I protest.

by JI on May 12, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hate it when

Jeff is represses us.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 12, 2008 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why do you think Delmon Young of all people played CF last year?

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah, that would be Jonny Gomes

Think Nick Swisher, only Gomes did the team yoga classes in his underwear, drinks beer, has a dog named Jager, and brought a plastic rooster named “Cocky” into the clubhouse and made everyone “Rub his Cock” before games.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gomes is fucking awesome.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

His nickname IS Jonny Fucking Gomes.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure the defensive spectrum is misleading here

An immensely fast 2B with a bad first step and poor footwork is going to do much better at CF, even though it’s technically a harder position.

by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

As for Aki, I can assure you that wasn’t luck. Friedman had intentions of moving him to second because the team feels that a Japanese 3B is more suited for American 2B (in Japan third base is a position built on range - getting to bunts for instance - more so than reaction, unlike the American version). That being said, did they know he’d be THIS good? Probably not, but he worked all off-season with his high school coach, and Aki’s belief is you cherish each and every run, so I guess that plays into him going all vortex like at second.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh and try having Wigginton/Cantu/Harris as your second baseman for a few years, the fans deserve a good one.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do not wish to try this

But again, the position being debated is that the Rays so value defense, that it’s a part of every decision they make. And you look at the decisions they’ve made in the past 3 years and go…. it is hard to see how the team could’ve been assembled such that the defense would have been worse.

It’s the same people who put up an IF of Wigginton/Harris/Cantu/Pena or whatever, and now, all of the sudden, they ‘get it’ and put people in a position to succeed? It’s happening; the numbers are there, but this strikes me more of ‘we won the lottery!’ than a completely thought-out plan.

by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The opportunity neither arose to add defensive talent. They attempted to tweak with what was available - Wilson was a slick fielder for a time with the Marlins for instance - and it didn’t work.

So yes, the Rays did fail last year, but they learned from their mistakes and made it a point to get better by any means necessary.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My words are above said things.

And now they’re below.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good

I was afraid for a second.

by JI on May 12, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think they're probably a little surprised by how good they are now

but I have learned to give the Friedman front office the benefit of the doubt with pretty much everything, the same way I do Shapiro in Cleveland. I believe that, in cleaning up the mess left by LaMar, the Rays just hung around with no intentions of winning, trying guys out and letting their young players develop, until they recognized that the window was open, at which point they went about putting together an actual defense.

They could’ve fielded a better defense than they did a year ago. Absolutely. But there wasn’t really much motivation for them to do it, which makes me wary when it comes to holding it against them. They just wanted to find room to put their young bats.

by Jeff on May 12, 2008 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure this reply will get buried

but… this is a remarkable amount of deference here. I like the guys they’ve developed, but c’mon – they weren’t trying to get their young bats in the line-up in 2007… they were playing Ty Wigginton, Jorge Cantu, Eric Hinske. They TRADED for Zobrist, Harris and Wilson, they picked up Pena/Iwamura/Wigginton and developed such gold glovers as Gomes and Cantu (yeah yeah, that was the old FO…).

And I just don’t buy the idea that because they weren’t going to compete, that they just blew their own defense up….just as they were giving guys like Sonnanstine, Howell and Shields their first extended looks. They both had multiple opportunities to change the defense and a good reason (young pitchers) to improve the D, and didn’t until this year. I just…how? Why? “They could’ve, they just chose not to,” seems unlikely to me.

Finally, if they totally knew what they were doing, but were just waiting for the right moment to spring the trap, can we really say that the M’s FO doesn’t understand the importance of defense? Maybe they’re just biding their time.

by marc w on May 12, 2008 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, the M's thought they'd be competing right now.

So, yeah, I’m pretty sure we can say with certainty that the M’s are just stupid when it comes to evaluating defense (and pitching, and the market).

The Rays had to play Dukes, Young, and Upton, which – with Crawford in the way – led to a messy outfield and a messy infield. With Upton on second, they had to slide Iwamura to a non-natural position, and without any ready shortstops on the farm, they went with a bat whose defense they probably didn’t realize was that bad until they had him (Harris). And Wilson/Zobrist were at least good gloves in theory before turning into piles of crap once they actually got on the field.

Pena is good. Wigginton was just a utility guy.

The Rays could’ve had a better team defense last year, but they had limited opportunity/flexibility to do anything, and with no hope of winning I don’t think they had as much reason to fiddle. They knew things would be changing in 2008. We all knew – Dave and I actually emailed each other about this very thing last May (that both the Rays and Marlins had horrible defenses, but that the Rays were in position to improve quickly down the road).

I could be a little biased. I’m trying not to be, and I don’t think I am, but maybe some is slipping in there. The Rays are really smart, though. If they undervalued defense a year ago – and I’m not sure that they did – I am 99% certain that they don’t anymore. They’re on the trolley.

by Jeff on May 12, 2008 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the thoughtful reply

I agree that the M’s don’t know how to evaluate defense; that was more of a rhetorical flourish than an argument. The point was more that they could’ve made the same or similar moves without ever thinking of defense – Duke is a crazy person, Young (who graded out as a pretty good def. RF) was tough to give up, but they liked Garza, Iwamura’s bat wasn’t going to play at 3B and oh by the way Longoria, Upton failed again, ergo move him again, etc.

I feel bad for the Rays, because it would appear that the Yankees and Red Sox both got this memo a few years ago. The Yankees not only rebounded from another of the worst defenses of all time, they’ve done it while continuing to play Jeter at SS. The Redsox are above average despite Manny. Wow. Who ISN’T on the trolley right now? Yeah yeah, besides us. The Twins, I’d wager, are on despite their poor showing thus far. I really don’t know about the Marlins – Ramirez and Uggla aren’t good, but they’ve done a decent job at other positions, right, and defense was a possible reason to ‘sell high’ on Miggy Cabrera. Which teams really DON’T get this?

by marc w on May 12, 2008 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In terms of "getting" defense

I’d say there are only a few teams who’re still a step behind. You’ll find them at the bottom of the list up above. Baseball is getting smarter, and it’s getting smarter in a hurry. (See: Kyle Lohse)

But then, when people say the Rays “get it”, it’s worth pointing out that they’re not just referring to how TB understands defense. They’re referring to how TB understands team-building in general. Their defense kind of mirrors their front office, in a way – seemingly overnight it’s gone from historically awful to really quite good. If they’re not the smartest in baseball, they’re easily top five.

by Jeff on May 12, 2008 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How bad would this team be if we traded for Griffey and had kept Wilk?

A defense like this would’ve been theoretically possible:

C Burke
1B Sexson
2B Vidro
3B Cairo
SS Bloomquist
LF Ibanez
CF Griffey
RF Wilkerson

SP Jarrod Washburn

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 1:10 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Or rather

C Burke
DH Sexson
DH Vidro
“3B” Cairo
“SS” Bloomquist
DH Ibanez
DH Griffey
DH Wilkerson

“SP” Jarrod Washburn

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Defense question

How does Omar Vizquel rank as a defender these days? I have a friend who is a Giants fan (and who will be forced to pay me $500 when the Rays finish above .500) who insists Omar is still a top-tier defender.

Does he still have any range to speak of?

by BrianL on May 12, 2008 1:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The Padres are proving that while pitching and defense may win you championships

they certainly don’t win you division titles.

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:24 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If you had told me before the season started, that on May 12th the Padres would be looking up at the Giants,

I would of laughed in your face.

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In all fairness

Jim Edmonds ceased being a passable defensive CFer 3 years ago. Their OF defense is quite bad.

by JI on May 12, 2008 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, the Marlins have the best record in baseball.

What?

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:28 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

fuckin bitches

bitches

Determined, Jonesing Commentor

by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So to recap:

Marlins trade away Miguel Cabrera, one of the greatest young hitters of our generations, and have the best record in baseball to show for it 6 weeks in the season.

The A’s trade away Danny Haren and Nick Swisher, and have the 5th best record in baseball to show for it.

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Mariners lose Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey Jr., and Alex Rodriguez

and get 40 wins better over the course of two seasons.

by JI on May 12, 2008 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We've found the secret to winning baseball!

1.Trade away your best players.
2.???
3.Profit!

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

not just your best players

historically awesome players.

For all the shit trades the M’s have made over the years, at least the RJ trade was a fucking steal.

by JI on May 12, 2008 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't say Haren and Swisher are historically awesome.

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fucking Christ our management is terrible

if you can win with the core of the 1997-1998 teams you deserve to be castrated.

by JI on May 12, 2008 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If it worked one time, why not do it again?

I’m sure Brian Sabean thinks we still have RJ. We could probably get Fred Lewis and BoCOCK for him

by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If we give it a couple years, fine.

But that thing is almost as dead as the MasterCard priceless meme.

by Matthew on May 12, 2008 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

1. Suggest a comeback for a dead meme
2. ?
3. Get it rejected!

by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's like Madden franchises

Step 1. Sign free agents with zero signing bonus
Step 2. Trade them for draft picks
Step 3. ???
Step 4. Raise hot dog prices
Step 5. PROFIT!!!

by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

AND HERE COMES THE PROFIT MEME!

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Step 1. Use profit meme excessively
Step 2. Everyone slowly begins to hate you

Wow, looks like all the steps are there

by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's like Baseball Mogul

1. Sign one kick ass Free Agent
2. Trade him for 5 grade A prospects
3. Wait for those prospects to mature and hit arb
4. Trade those five players for 25 grade A prospects
5. Repeat step 1-4 as you deem necessary
6. Play .800 ball for the rest eternity.

by JI on May 12, 2008 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

4.a

Rob Coach Owens when necessary.

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yep

Determined, Jonesing Commentor

by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still don't buy defensive statistics

Until someone finds a way to incorporate the velocity of the ball, they just don’t have the data necessary to do the job.

by chaney on May 12, 2008 1:29 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Please explain

and I don’t say that snarkily, I’m just not sophistamacated enough to understand why the velocity of the ball would matter.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 12, 2008 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Harder-hit balls are more difficult to field

but for this to make a big difference on a team-by-team basis you’d have to believe that some teams’ line drives are hit way harder or way weaker than everyone else’s.

by Jeff on May 12, 2008 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's really frightening that that's pretty much what I was thinking

maybe this stuff’s starting to get through my head after all.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 12, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's a Monday, too

What the hell is wrong with you?

by Jeff on May 12, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sober and my latest contract is ending

which means that 1) I have time to think and 2) I’m thinking clearly.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 12, 2008 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not an each individual play type thing

it’s an aggregate of all the balls hit into a zone in any given timeframe (usually a year) and letting the natural variance of balls in play sort itself out

by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

While screwing around at one point over the weekend, Matthew and I saw that the difference in BABIP against for the 2001 and 2007 Mariners was 57 points.

That’s your idea of screwing around?

by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 1:38 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

How is BABBIP formed?

I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on May 12, 2008 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know

it was supposed to be a snarky response at it, but yahoo! answers has nothing on BABIP :(

by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You've impinged on my trademarked joke

I must ask you to cease and desist all uses of the whole or partial phrase “How is BABIP formed” by May 30, 2008. Failure to comply will result in legal action. We will enforce trademark to the full extent of the law.

by johnbai on May 12, 2008 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not me!

you’re suing the wrong guy! You want kentroyals5!!!!

by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know

it was supposed to be a snarky response at it, but yahoo! answers has nothing on BABIP :(

by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We weren't even invited.

I always wanted to be nerd, but I was never smart enough.

by JI on May 12, 2008 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was going to say that Ankiel's defensive prowess is beginning to

overshadow the whole he-made-it-back-as-an-OF thing.
It was cool that he was a slugging rightfielder, but adding in GG defense at CF seems a bit too Disney for me….

by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm kinda starting to dislike Rick Ankiel.

I’m tired of hearing about his goddamn story.

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, well good luck arguing that in front of any sort of baseball official or federal judge.

I think “performance enhancer” and “steroid” are synonymous at this point.

by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel has not been accused by authorities of wrongdoing, and stopped receiving HGH just before Major League Baseball officially banned it in 2005, The News reported.

So I repeat: quit trolling.

by JI on May 12, 2008 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you know what trolling means?

If you think it means “disagreeing with you” or “pointing out Ankiel used HGH” then you’re wrong.

Also, if it isn’t a performance enhancer then why was it banned?

by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Techincally we don't know if it's a performance enhancer yet.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What do you mean?

That the jury is still out on it?

by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes.

HGH and steroids are very different.

by JI on May 12, 2008 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Again, technically no one knows if HGH really enhances your performance.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough.

My point is not whether they provide the same function in the body, just that they are classified under the same type of drug for most drug enforcement agencies.

by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorta along the same lines

as why get bent out of shape over Big Mac using Andro when it was legal?

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is there an obvious answer to this?

I’m assuming you’re implying that there is a reason to get bent out of shape, but I’m missing it.

Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?

by The Alaskan on May 12, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And when I say "assuming you're implying"

I guess I mean I’m inferring.

Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?

by The Alaskan on May 12, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not taking a position one way or the other.

I’m just saying if you accept one, yeah gotta accept the other.

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Done and done.

Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?

by The Alaskan on May 12, 2008 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course.

There was nothing wrong with Mac taking Andro.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really don't care about either

and not just because their Cardinals. I don’t give a shit that Paul LoDuca took PEDs either—actually I do because it’s hilarious and it undermines the whole “Heart and soul” mantra that morons kept insisting upon after that trade.

by JI on May 12, 2008 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well

Either you’re a goddamned moron, or you trying to start shit with me. One of the two.

by JI on May 12, 2008 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, you're right.

Lets give free passes to everyone since it wasn’t “illegal” by the massively outdated MLB drug policy. Get real.

by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, the government classifies them the same.

So go ahead and produce and sell HGH and when the DEA rounds you up in what they call an “anabolic steroids raid” you can explain to them the differences.

by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Grahaaaaam he's not getting ittttttt....

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No you guys arent getting it.

I am not saying they are the same. I am saying they are considered the same.

by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kind of like how

anabolic steroids and armed robbery are considered the same – they’re both illegal!

by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

An example of the way logic apparently works in your personal universe:

A man is sentenced to 2 years in jail for assault.
Another man is sentenced to 2 years in jail for tax evasion.

Assault is therefore the same thing as tax evasion!

by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Look, we get it

per you, and a lot of other people, anabolic steroids and HGH both fall under the umbrella of performance enhancing drugs and thus should both be treated the same way. However, as Brett has pointed out at least twice, the effects of HGH are still undetermined from a performance standpoint, and HGH does not have the same effect as steroids at all. Thus, both my analogy and Graham’s are apt – you’re trying to compare two different things that share only a single common thread – in this case that they’re both drugs which are banned by professional sports

by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok...

but HGH “can generally be described as anabolic (building up). Like most other protein hormones GH acts by interacting with a specific receptor on the surface of cells.” It increases protein synthesis. Which means you build muscles faster, stronger, better, whatever.

You can argue the details all day, but it is banned albeit much later than it should have been, so it is fair to cast aspersions on people who got caught with it, especially from a lab who was busted for shipping it illegally.

by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel has not been accused by authorities of wrongdoing, and stopped receiving HGH just before Major League Baseball officially banned it in 2005, The News reported.

So I repeat, either you are a goddamned moron or a troll.

by JI on May 12, 2008 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You've replied to my comments

at Field Gulls. So…? Yes.

And that has no bearing on this, because I am in no way demonizing him for it, just as I will not sit here and defend any football player I might be a fan of.

That being said, it does not make it ok to use either way.

by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've replied to your comments at FG?

I’m not a member at FG… I just lurk there. I’m not magic either so…

by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought you had.

Either way, your SBN id works on every site.

by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Erm

If you’re going to quote Wikipedia, at least follow the link through to ‘protein synthesis’.

by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's definitly a dieing meme.

Incidentally “Dead meme” is a dead meme.

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But I just got it right.

I never got it right before. I had no idea it was mathematical.

by JI on May 12, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How is it a dead meme?

It’s a not equals sign.

by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's used ALOT around here.

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And is a dead meme

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Isn't that how something becomes a dead meme?

Or am I just confused?

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the important distinction

is that the meme (joke or otherwise) is an invention of the subculture (LL), right?

Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?

by The Alaskan on May 12, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Strasburg

Poor lad is going to be a dead meme before he even gets drafted.

by Alex B on May 12, 2008 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Memes are generally ideas or sets of ideas

It’s really bizarre to start throwing mathematical signs under the dead meme bus.

by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I always thought the "!"

meant “sarcastic exuberance”, not does not equal. I guess it works either way.

by JI on May 12, 2008 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well apparently you don't Kn much.

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.

"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert

by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's a pitching specific photo

The more you K. Stay tuned for the exciting conclusion where you find out what happens.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on May 12, 2008 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The More You K

It’s a message for the M’s pitchers.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Surely that argument makes "Mariners" a dead meme too

Which is actually kind of fitting, I suppose.

by Alex B on May 12, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um, are you kidding me dude?

Anabolic Steroids and Human Growth Hormone COULDN’T be different.

by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It means that you may want to read up on their definitions.

And I left out the “more” in “couldn’t be more different.” Cry me a river dude, you can figure it out.

by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I was crying you a river dude.

And you need to look up their definitions, because I think they could be plenty more different.

They both increase protein synthesis, and that is the main problem with them. So, yeah. Pretty much could be a lot more different.

by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually no.

For one, HGH is not a steroid hormone. Consequently, the mechanism of action of the two are quite different.

Related to this - as it’s been said countless times in this thread - is the fact that the effects of anabolic steroids have been proven, while the same is not true of HGH.

by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In a sense related to whether

or not they improve baseball performance, of course.

by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok.

Why would players be illegally taking HGH then? For fun? To get diabetes?

by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, for something that happens

to 1 in 5000 people.. that is an awful lot of MLB players to be dealing with it.

It should be what, 2 players out of every MLB pro? 1?

by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs