Hey You Know Whose Defense Sucks? Ours
Updated THT team page:
To date, the Mariners have turned 19 fewer balls in play into outs than you'd expect given their groundballs/fly balls/line drives against. This has cost them ~15 runs and goes a long way towards explaining why the team ERA is higher than the team FIP despite a pretty good strand rate and a better-than-average number of infield flies. That's really bad.
Not convinced that defense matters? While screwing around at one point over the weekend, Matthew and I saw that the difference in BABIP against for the 2001 and 2007 Mariners was 57 points. Over a full season, 57 points of BABIP equals about 250 balls in play, or somewhere between 175-200 runs. 175-200 runs. From defense alone. Now, granted, the 2001 Mariners were kind of historically awesome with the glove, but the difference between even just a "normal" good and a "normal" bad defense can easily be 6-10 wins. That's huge. Just look at the Rays' turnaround - this sort of thing can make a world of difference.
Team defense is the most underrated aspect of the game today. I'm not sure exactly how many organizations "get it", but the Mariners very clearly do not, and it's killing them on the field. These guys don't score nearly enough runs to be able to justify giving them away for free with bad defense.
God dammit Yuni.
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769 comments
Comments
You think this is bad, wait for the Ibanez/Ichiro/Griffey outfield
by Graham on May 12, 2008 12:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That's bad.
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip
by Phildopip on May 12, 2008 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He gets traded to the Reds for Griffey.
Along with seventeen other guys.
-aaron c.
by acblue on May 12, 2008 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We're not the worst!
We’re not the worst! We’re not the worst!
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 12:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I totally agree with this
“Team defense is the most underrated aspect of the game today.”
This is so completely true. I think it’s hard to really understand, because it’s not always correlated with specific players who get a lot of chances. Some of it (though less than I used to think) is probably luck, too. But we’re now in year two of abysmal defense, just as the Blue Jays and others are right at their customary spot at the top. Some teams clearly do get this.
Two other observations:
1) the magnitude of the Rays’ improvement is tough to overstate. They went from once-in-a-decade awful to above average. I’d love to see how many runs/wins they save at the end of this year – it could be in the neighborhood of 10-15 WINS.
2) The Giants knew they had a bad offense this year, and so they threw guys like Brian Bocock into the line-up to at least safeguard their defense. Ooops. This says that many teams still view the key to team defense is having a a shortstop who makes the occasional flashy play :whistles, looks around:. It also shows how important black holes in a defense can be, even in positions that get fewer chances, like left field or 3b. The Giants traded a decent fielding 3B (who scouts hated) and replaced him with Jose Castillo, who makes Justin Leone look like Brooks Robinson. In summary, the Giants are basically the Mariners, and… LEONE FOR THIRD!
by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Going strictly by BABIP (which obviously isn't perfect but whatever)
were the Rays to keep up their current pace, their 2008 defense would be 248 plays better than their 2007 defense would be with the same pitching staff. Using the 1 play = 0.8 runs standard, that’s nearly 200 runs, which is nearly 20 wins.
20 wins.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I buy a Rays jersey and frame it for my new apartment
whose jersey do I buy?
by andrewgolfsalot on May 12, 2008 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fred McGriff.
Or Wade Boggs.
Or fucking Miguel Cairo.
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Also, I'm always down for some online Grand Theft Auto IV or Rock Band. Gamertag: Phildopip
by Phildopip on May 12, 2008 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why the hell does
Giants 17, Patriots 14 sponsor Miguel Cairo’s BR page?
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad they won't get the #1 pick again next year
I just hope it doesn’t go to a boring team like Pittsburg or Washington.
by Graham on May 12, 2008 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would prefer that Washington continue to build pitching staffs out of stuff they find behind the dryer
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't get over the Odalis Perez opening day assignment
by Graham on May 12, 2008 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was clever
not too many teams are able to turn a February NRI into an Opening Day starter.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do they?
Clearly getting Bartlett in the Garza deal helped a ton. But I don’t know – I mean, maybe so, but I don’t think promoting Longoria had to do w/his defense. And maybe they knew that Iwamura, who was a bad defensive 3b last year would be a good defensive 2b this year…. but maybe not.
I like ‘em, and things have worked out, but I’m not totally convinced that they were all planned out.
by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am 99% certain that yes they do indeed get it
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I kinda covered this
http://www.draysbay.com/2008/5/11/507490/36-games-in-our-mvp-s-are
Thief!
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defense wins championships.
(first non-ironic usage in memory)
by JI on May 12, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not championships, but...
Look at the “surprise” teams and their Def. Eff. rankings:
2007 Rockies: .703 2006 Rockies: .690
2006 Tigers .712 2005 Tigers: .704
2005 White Sox .720 2004 White Sox .701
Those shocker teams all saw at least some jump in Def. Eff, and naturally a great defense combined with the right type of pitcher for that defense (so for Webb, good infield defense) can make magic happen.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It might not have all been planned
but I wasn’t speaking solely in terms of team defense. The Rays get how to build baseball teams. I’m never more sure of it than I am after this past weekend.
by Matthew on May 12, 2008 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well there's a teaser
tell me more of this newfound certainty.
Which moves were made specifically to improve the defense (aside from the Bartlett acquisition)?
by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't say any other moves were made specifically for the defense
but defense is a factor in pretty much every position player decision they make. As it should be.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If this is true
how did they manage to assemble the worst defense in baseball last year? How did they decide that Brendan Harris was a good SS option, and then think that a good replacement would be Josh Wilson? If they knew Iwamura was a decent IF option, why did they set him up to fail at 3b? Who, seeing that the guy was a much worse fielding 3b than Eric Freakin’ Hinske says, “what we need to do is move him to an up-the-middle defensive spot?”
I guess the larger question is, how does defense factor in every decision? Is it a scouting thing?
by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again
The Rays had every intent of moving Aki to second. What you ignore is that the Rays actually had B.J. Upton and Ben Zobrist playing SS/2B early on last year after Upton had failed at third base and before he moved to the outfield.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, and those guys totally sucked defensively
The Rays have tried 25 different combinations, and all of them have been various shades of putrid. Now, they’ve rolled the dice again and come up winners. Ok, that’s cool, and my hat is off to them. But I’m not yet convinced that they won because they’re supergeniuses. These are the same supergeniuses who used Zobrist/Harris/Wilson at SS and Upton at 2b and Iwamura at 3b LAST YEAR. This can’t be blamed on Chuck LaMar.
by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aki wasn't that bad at third base imo
But maybe those are my homer glasses, he just had balls go over his head and throw the short/third gap a lot.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm looking at the THT stats
and he was, statistically, the worst 3b in the American league last year.
by marc w on May 12, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Homer glasses then.
It seemed like Wiggy/Harris were far worse at their jobs, but I won’t argue that he wasn’t below average at best.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Homer glasses are awesome
Jose Lopez is an all-star
Yuni is awesome at defense
Felix never messes up
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My answer would be that it takes a while to undo Chuck LaMar
Friedman & co. have only been around for so long, and for the first few years they didn’t have any kind of opportunity to win. However, they recognized that the window was about to open, and as such they’ve now built an actual baseball team. Until now it was just a bunch of stopgaps and tryouts as they bided their time.
As for defense factoring into every decision, I don’t say that because I know for sure – I just say that because I’ve been assured time and time again the the Rays are the smartest front office in baseball, and I imagine the smartest front office in baseball understands the importance of defense.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chuck LaMar is a Bad Man
but he’s not responsible for the Rays defense in 2007 (at least not directly). We’re not talking about a gradual change here, we’re talking about a 20 win difference OVER NIGHT. This is either the best plan ever, or it’s a lot of luck. Given the overlap here, I’m thinking luck has a lot to do with it. Again, that doesn’t make them a stupid FO, but this is the SAME FO that trotted out the worst defense in a generation last year.
by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
It seems to me that a smart FO would be ok with fielding a crappy defence under the following conditions:
1) If they’re unable to compete that year and
2) If rapid roster turnover is possible.
by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
perhaps
but you’d think a really smart FO would be able to get replacement level production given three cracks at it. Park adjusted and factoring in defense, I’m not sure they got that from anyone at SS/2B last year. sub .300 OBP PLUS historically bad defense? Wow! That’s Bocockian, right there.
They were unable to compete last year, and if I’m crediting them with anything, it’s the biggest rope-a-dope in baseball history. I wonder if fielders were instructed not to chase balls headed into the hole.
I just think a smart FO tries to show progress and reward their young pitching staff. If the Rays really did punt 15 games last year due to defense, I just don’t see how that can be called smart. The best we can say is that they maximized their output given the players they had available, but that still doesn’t work, at least at SS. I don’t know.
by marc w on May 12, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They may have been instructed not to
I mean, at some point seeing the ball roll by you after going as hard as you can gets old. Ask Harris/Wigginton/Cantu.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm wondering if Sexson didn't get told this
he doesn’t even move laterally anymore. At all. He was abysmal last year, and may be worse now.
by marc w on May 12, 2008 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It takes a while to undo other people's mistakes
you have to play with what you’re given.
You don’t think it’s any coincidence they traded Young for a competant SS?
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, that's great
But 20 wins difference didn’t come from that move, as important as it was.
by marc w on May 12, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I wouldn't say that Bartlett was the key focus of the deal
To be fair, we were looking at Lincecum and Adam Miller (got offered Cliff Lee) and while I’m guessing a shortstop or two may have also been mentioned I think the Rays would’ve been okay getting someone like Adam Everett at a later point if Lincecum for Delmon is an option.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think they make that trade if he's not included.
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, but at the same time he wasn't the key piece
The Twins tried offering Bonser (and others) instead of Garza and the Rays were pretty deadset on getting him.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
So would I. Again, SS was a massive, oozing chest wound and they fixed it cheaply and effectively. But because the wound was so obvious, I’m not sure it takes amazing Mental Powers to make an upgrade. What I don’t really get is how moving Iwamura and Upton have worked out so freaking well. Hmm, you guys have failed at easier positions; let’s make your job tougher…. and then it works.
by marc w on May 12, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Player toolsets
And trust me, Upton pisses me off because he still makes mistakes, but like Carl he makes up for them with speed, and he has a cannon for an arm.
Iwamura has grand range, it was just a matter of getting him in position to play it, he actually said he was the best shortstop on the team, but apparently the Rays wouldn’t let him move mid-season last year.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question:
How did Crawford not end up in centerfield?
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, that's one question I've always had
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He refuses to bat leadoff/play center.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is one of the issues with Carl
He’s a relatively quiet (nationally at least) guy, but he’s got some attitude himself. Essentially he refuses to play center and bat lead off.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They could
But at the same time B.J. said he would only agree to move to CF if that was the last move he’d make.
So essentially we’re going to have a CF playing LF and a RF playing CF for the next few years until Upton likely bolts for a record setting deal.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could always trade everybody.
(see my baseball Mogul strategy)
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can maybe understand not wanting to hit leadoff
but not wanting to play CF seems kind of strange to me…
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He doesn't "feel comfortable" in center.
The Rays even lowered the left field wall so he could make “Torii Hunter plays” and get his name out there more.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and as for leading off
Carl sees himself as a middle of the order guy, and has said he’d love to play in a “homerun ballpark”.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I could very well understand that type of thing
and it’s not like he doesn’t have any power anyway.
The CF thing is still weird to me, because Torii Hunter is a CF, and aren’t all the big name defensive OFs playing center?
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I don't really get his point.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Mariners could use a good defensive leftfielder.
Plus I’ve always wanted a player I could call “Hot Carl.”
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carl for Ichiro and Putz?
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather trade Clement for Crawford
than I would Brian Fuentes.
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crawford used to be one of my favorite nonMariners before you just told me about how much of an asshole he is
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah seriously.
I had no idea. What a prick.
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh I know this one!
Hacking on the first pitch and refusing to walk!
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
More of a play on the "Ichiro hurts this team by..." meme
but, sure.
by BrianL on May 12, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't know that one, sorry.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of casual fans hate Ichiro.
“Ichiro hurts this team by not diving for flyballs.”
“Ichiro hurts this team by not speaking English.”
Some of the accusations were pretty stupid. Eventually it evolved into a meme in this community (well before I showed up). In jest we’ll say things like
“Ichiro hurts this team by not shanking Vidro.”
“Ichiro hurts this team because he’s not gritty.”
by BrianL on May 12, 2008 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Ichiro is awesome.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We know this.
Our casual fans are pretty stupid. Not LAA stupid, but still pretty stupid.
by BrianL on May 12, 2008 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a play on Ichiro's move to CF last year
and how Adam Jones should be our CF instead of trade bait. Led to this hilarious thread which included statements such as “JOSE VIDRO HURTS THIS TEAM BY EATING ALL THE FOOD IN THE CLUBHOUSE. THE OTHER PLAYERS ARE MALNOURISHED!”
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was a lurker here when that thread went up.
Hilarious.
by BrianL on May 12, 2008 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was my favourite thread ever
until Question? happened.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question was the greatest thing ever
not just threads, EVER. Between the sheer strangeness of the question to the fact that it disappeared while we were still talking about it…
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think the fonts on the on the SBN 1.0 pages
look different than the ones on the SBN 2.0 pages?
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't.
Though I had some trouble getting my standard LL fonts back when I upgraded to IE7. Stupid font-smoothing.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can still embed videos...
Just paste the embed code from Youtube or wherever. See.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Failure is me.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jeff hates video embedding
and he is represses us when ever we I protest.
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate it when
Jeff is represses us.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you think Delmon Young of all people played CF last year?
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah, that would be Jonny Gomes
Think Nick Swisher, only Gomes did the team yoga classes in his underwear, drinks beer, has a dog named Jager, and brought a plastic rooster named “Cocky” into the clubhouse and made everyone “Rub his Cock” before games.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gomes is fucking awesome.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His nickname IS Jonny Fucking Gomes.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure the defensive spectrum is misleading here
An immensely fast 2B with a bad first step and poor footwork is going to do much better at CF, even though it’s technically a harder position.
by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As for Aki, I can assure you that wasn’t luck. Friedman had intentions of moving him to second because the team feels that a Japanese 3B is more suited for American 2B (in Japan third base is a position built on range - getting to bunts for instance - more so than reaction, unlike the American version). That being said, did they know he’d be THIS good? Probably not, but he worked all off-season with his high school coach, and Aki’s belief is you cherish each and every run, so I guess that plays into him going all vortex like at second.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and try having Wigginton/Cantu/Harris as your second baseman for a few years, the fans deserve a good one.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do not wish to try this
But again, the position being debated is that the Rays so value defense, that it’s a part of every decision they make. And you look at the decisions they’ve made in the past 3 years and go…. it is hard to see how the team could’ve been assembled such that the defense would have been worse.
It’s the same people who put up an IF of Wigginton/Harris/Cantu/Pena or whatever, and now, all of the sudden, they ‘get it’ and put people in a position to succeed? It’s happening; the numbers are there, but this strikes me more of ‘we won the lottery!’ than a completely thought-out plan.
by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The opportunity neither arose to add defensive talent. They attempted to tweak with what was available - Wilson was a slick fielder for a time with the Marlins for instance - and it didn’t work.
So yes, the Rays did fail last year, but they learned from their mistakes and made it a point to get better by any means necessary.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My words are above said things.
And now they’re below.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they're probably a little surprised by how good they are now
but I have learned to give the Friedman front office the benefit of the doubt with pretty much everything, the same way I do Shapiro in Cleveland. I believe that, in cleaning up the mess left by LaMar, the Rays just hung around with no intentions of winning, trying guys out and letting their young players develop, until they recognized that the window was open, at which point they went about putting together an actual defense.
They could’ve fielded a better defense than they did a year ago. Absolutely. But there wasn’t really much motivation for them to do it, which makes me wary when it comes to holding it against them. They just wanted to find room to put their young bats.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure this reply will get buried
but… this is a remarkable amount of deference here. I like the guys they’ve developed, but c’mon – they weren’t trying to get their young bats in the line-up in 2007… they were playing Ty Wigginton, Jorge Cantu, Eric Hinske. They TRADED for Zobrist, Harris and Wilson, they picked up Pena/Iwamura/Wigginton and developed such gold glovers as Gomes and Cantu (yeah yeah, that was the old FO…).
And I just don’t buy the idea that because they weren’t going to compete, that they just blew their own defense up….just as they were giving guys like Sonnanstine, Howell and Shields their first extended looks. They both had multiple opportunities to change the defense and a good reason (young pitchers) to improve the D, and didn’t until this year. I just…how? Why? “They could’ve, they just chose not to,” seems unlikely to me.
Finally, if they totally knew what they were doing, but were just waiting for the right moment to spring the trap, can we really say that the M’s FO doesn’t understand the importance of defense? Maybe they’re just biding their time.
by marc w on May 12, 2008 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the M's thought they'd be competing right now.
So, yeah, I’m pretty sure we can say with certainty that the M’s are just stupid when it comes to evaluating defense (and pitching, and the market).
The Rays had to play Dukes, Young, and Upton, which – with Crawford in the way – led to a messy outfield and a messy infield. With Upton on second, they had to slide Iwamura to a non-natural position, and without any ready shortstops on the farm, they went with a bat whose defense they probably didn’t realize was that bad until they had him (Harris). And Wilson/Zobrist were at least good gloves in theory before turning into piles of crap once they actually got on the field.
Pena is good. Wigginton was just a utility guy.
The Rays could’ve had a better team defense last year, but they had limited opportunity/flexibility to do anything, and with no hope of winning I don’t think they had as much reason to fiddle. They knew things would be changing in 2008. We all knew – Dave and I actually emailed each other about this very thing last May (that both the Rays and Marlins had horrible defenses, but that the Rays were in position to improve quickly down the road).
I could be a little biased. I’m trying not to be, and I don’t think I am, but maybe some is slipping in there. The Rays are really smart, though. If they undervalued defense a year ago – and I’m not sure that they did – I am 99% certain that they don’t anymore. They’re on the trolley.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the thoughtful reply
I agree that the M’s don’t know how to evaluate defense; that was more of a rhetorical flourish than an argument. The point was more that they could’ve made the same or similar moves without ever thinking of defense – Duke is a crazy person, Young (who graded out as a pretty good def. RF) was tough to give up, but they liked Garza, Iwamura’s bat wasn’t going to play at 3B and oh by the way Longoria, Upton failed again, ergo move him again, etc.
I feel bad for the Rays, because it would appear that the Yankees and Red Sox both got this memo a few years ago. The Yankees not only rebounded from another of the worst defenses of all time, they’ve done it while continuing to play Jeter at SS. The Redsox are above average despite Manny. Wow. Who ISN’T on the trolley right now? Yeah yeah, besides us. The Twins, I’d wager, are on despite their poor showing thus far. I really don’t know about the Marlins – Ramirez and Uggla aren’t good, but they’ve done a decent job at other positions, right, and defense was a possible reason to ‘sell high’ on Miggy Cabrera. Which teams really DON’T get this?
by marc w on May 12, 2008 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In terms of "getting" defense
I’d say there are only a few teams who’re still a step behind. You’ll find them at the bottom of the list up above. Baseball is getting smarter, and it’s getting smarter in a hurry. (See: Kyle Lohse)
But then, when people say the Rays “get it”, it’s worth pointing out that they’re not just referring to how TB understands defense. They’re referring to how TB understands team-building in general. Their defense kind of mirrors their front office, in a way – seemingly overnight it’s gone from historically awful to really quite good. If they’re not the smartest in baseball, they’re easily top five.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
nooooo
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How bad would this team be if we traded for Griffey and had kept Wilk?
A defense like this would’ve been theoretically possible:
C Burke
1B Sexson
2B Vidro
3B Cairo
SS Bloomquist
LF Ibanez
CF Griffey
RF Wilkerson
SP Jarrod Washburn
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 1:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Or rather
C Burke
DH Sexson
DH Vidro
“3B” Cairo
“SS” Bloomquist
DH Ibanez
DH Griffey
DH Wilkerson
“SP” Jarrod Washburn
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just saying it's possible if McLaren tries to give everyone a day off at the same time.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defense question
How does Omar Vizquel rank as a defender these days? I have a friend who is a Giants fan (and who will be forced to pay me $500 when the Rays finish above .500) who insists Omar is still a top-tier defender.
Does he still have any range to speak of?
by BrianL on May 12, 2008 1:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Padres are proving that while pitching and defense may win you championships
they certainly don’t win you division titles.
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If you had told me before the season started, that on May 12th the Padres would be looking up at the Giants,
I would of laughed in your face.
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In all fairness
Jim Edmonds ceased being a passable defensive CFer 3 years ago. Their OF defense is quite bad.
by JI on May 12, 2008 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, the Marlins have the best record in baseball.
What?
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
fuckin bitches
bitches
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So to recap:
Marlins trade away Miguel Cabrera, one of the greatest young hitters of our generations, and have the best record in baseball to show for it 6 weeks in the season.
The A’s trade away Danny Haren and Nick Swisher, and have the 5th best record in baseball to show for it.
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
TRADE FELIX!!!
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on May 12, 2008 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Mariners lose Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey Jr., and Alex Rodriguez
and get 40 wins better over the course of two seasons.
by JI on May 12, 2008 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We've found the secret to winning baseball!
1.Trade away your best players.
2.???
3.Profit!
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not just your best players
historically awesome players.
For all the shit trades the M’s have made over the years, at least the RJ trade was a fucking steal.
by JI on May 12, 2008 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't say Haren and Swisher are historically awesome.
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fucking Christ our management is terrible
if you can win with the core of the 1997-1998 teams you deserve to be castrated.
by JI on May 12, 2008 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it worked one time, why not do it again?
I’m sure Brian Sabean thinks we still have RJ. We could probably get Fred Lewis and BoCOCK for him
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel a comeback for this meme
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we give it a couple years, fine.
But that thing is almost as dead as the MasterCard priceless meme.
by Matthew on May 12, 2008 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
1. Suggest a comeback for a dead meme
2. ?
3. Get it rejected!
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need to sign Bonds and trade him, pronto
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When do we get our Open Griffey Flamewar thread?
by JI on May 12, 2008 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The "WORST PLAYER IN BASEBALL" jpeg has grown on me.
by JI on May 12, 2008 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How'd that even come about?
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on May 12, 2008 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's like Madden franchises
Step 1. Sign free agents with zero signing bonus
Step 2. Trade them for draft picks
Step 3. ???
Step 4. Raise hot dog prices
Step 5. PROFIT!!!
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
AND HERE COMES THE PROFIT MEME!
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Step 1. Use profit meme excessively
Step 2. Everyone slowly begins to hate you
Wow, looks like all the steps are there
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's like Baseball Mogul
1. Sign one kick ass Free Agent
2. Trade him for 5 grade A prospects
3. Wait for those prospects to mature and hit arb
4. Trade those five players for 25 grade A prospects
5. Repeat step 1-4 as you deem necessary
6. Play .800 ball for the rest eternity.
by JI on May 12, 2008 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
4.a
Rob Coach Owens when necessary.
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is "Coach Owens" code for "Brian Sabean?"
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coach Owens is the worst GM in baseball mogul history
by Robert on May 12, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Considering you can play .800 ball on a league low payroll
that’s impressive.
by JI on May 12, 2008 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In that league
You could play .800 ball and still be 12 games behind Goose’s D-Backs.
by Gomez on May 12, 2008 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still don't buy defensive statistics
Until someone finds a way to incorporate the velocity of the ball, they just don’t have the data necessary to do the job.
by chaney on May 12, 2008 1:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Please explain
and I don’t say that snarkily, I’m just not sophistamacated enough to understand why the velocity of the ball would matter.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harder-hit balls are more difficult to field
but for this to make a big difference on a team-by-team basis you’d have to believe that some teams’ line drives are hit way harder or way weaker than everyone else’s.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's really frightening that that's pretty much what I was thinking
maybe this stuff’s starting to get through my head after all.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a Monday, too
What the hell is wrong with you?
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sober and my latest contract is ending
which means that 1) I have time to think and 2) I’m thinking clearly.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how great of a difference there'd be
between, say, the 92 Angels, and the 96 Mariners.
by JI on May 12, 2008 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not an each individual play type thing
it’s an aggregate of all the balls hit into a zone in any given timeframe (usually a year) and letting the natural variance of balls in play sort itself out
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
While screwing around at one point over the weekend, Matthew and I saw that the difference in BABIP against for the 2001 and 2007 Mariners was 57 points.
That’s your idea of screwing around?
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 1:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If you're going to make a nerd joke you already missed how we went there for a PITCHf/x conference
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm going to make a joke about how BABIP makes for awfully strange pillow talk
See?
by Graham on May 12, 2008 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is BABBIP formed?
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on May 12, 2008 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to Wikipedia
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Referencing: How is babby formed?
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on May 12, 2008 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know
it was supposed to be a snarky response at it, but yahoo! answers has nothing on BABIP :(
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You've impinged on my trademarked joke
I must ask you to cease and desist all uses of the whole or partial phrase “How is BABIP formed” by May 30, 2008. Failure to comply will result in legal action. We will enforce trademark to the full extent of the law.
by johnbai on May 12, 2008 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not me!
you’re suing the wrong guy! You want kentroyals5!!!!
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sweet...I'll drive the meme right into the ground by May 30th!
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on May 12, 2008 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know
it was supposed to be a snarky response at it, but yahoo! answers has nothing on BABIP :(
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We weren't even invited.
I always wanted to be nerd, but I was never smart enough.
by JI on May 12, 2008 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's amazing who a team with Chris Duncan in the outfield
can have anything but a negative total.
by JI on May 12, 2008 1:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I was going to say that Ankiel's defensive prowess is beginning to
overshadow the whole he-made-it-back-as-an-OF thing.
It was cool that he was a slugging rightfielder, but adding in GG defense at CF seems a bit too Disney for me….
by marc w on May 12, 2008 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm kinda starting to dislike Rick Ankiel.
I’m tired of hearing about his goddamn story.
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate when I mistype most important word.
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
THE most important word?
or just important word
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I repeat on behalf of JI
HGH is not steroids.
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not the person who said HGH was a steriod.
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, well good luck arguing that in front of any sort of baseball official or federal judge.
I think “performance enhancer” and “steroid” are synonymous at this point.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel has not been accused by authorities of wrongdoing, and stopped receiving HGH just before Major League Baseball officially banned it in 2005, The News reported.
So I repeat: quit trolling.
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you know what trolling means?
If you think it means “disagreeing with you” or “pointing out Ankiel used HGH” then you’re wrong.
Also, if it isn’t a performance enhancer then why was it banned?
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Techincally we don't know if it's a performance enhancer yet.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What do you mean?
That the jury is still out on it?
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He never said it wasn't a performance enhancer. He just said it wasn't a steroid
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, technically no one knows if HGH really enhances your performance.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough.
My point is not whether they provide the same function in the body, just that they are classified under the same type of drug for most drug enforcement agencies.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why get bent out of shape over some guy legally getting a shipment of HGH?
Who gives a shit?
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorta along the same lines
as why get bent out of shape over Big Mac using Andro when it was legal?
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there an obvious answer to this?
I’m assuming you’re implying that there is a reason to get bent out of shape, but I’m missing it.
Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?
by The Alaskan on May 12, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And when I say "assuming you're implying"
I guess I mean I’m inferring.
Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?
by The Alaskan on May 12, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not taking a position one way or the other.
I’m just saying if you accept one, yeah gotta accept the other.
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Done and done.
Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?
by The Alaskan on May 12, 2008 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course.
There was nothing wrong with Mac taking Andro.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't care about either
and not just because their Cardinals. I don’t give a shit that Paul LoDuca took PEDs either—actually I do because it’s hilarious and it undermines the whole “Heart and soul” mantra that morons kept insisting upon after that trade.
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, you would lose that now because HGH is illegal
it was NOT banned when Ankiel received it
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Either you’re a goddamned moron, or you trying to start shit with me. One of the two.
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, you're right.
Lets give free passes to everyone since it wasn’t “illegal” by the massively outdated MLB drug policy. Get real.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's give free passes to everyone who thinks the HGH= steriods.
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the government classifies them the same.
So go ahead and produce and sell HGH and when the DEA rounds you up in what they call an “anabolic steroids raid” you can explain to them the differences.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grahaaaaam he's not getting ittttttt....
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Paradigm
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No you guys arent getting it.
I am not saying they are the same. I am saying they are considered the same.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kind of like how
anabolic steroids and armed robbery are considered the same – they’re both illegal!
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
An example of the way logic apparently works in your personal universe:
A man is sentenced to 2 years in jail for assault.
Another man is sentenced to 2 years in jail for tax evasion.
Assault is therefore the same thing as tax evasion!
by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look, we get it
per you, and a lot of other people, anabolic steroids and HGH both fall under the umbrella of performance enhancing drugs and thus should both be treated the same way. However, as Brett has pointed out at least twice, the effects of HGH are still undetermined from a performance standpoint, and HGH does not have the same effect as steroids at all. Thus, both my analogy and Graham’s are apt – you’re trying to compare two different things that share only a single common thread – in this case that they’re both drugs which are banned by professional sports
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok...
but HGH “can generally be described as anabolic (building up). Like most other protein hormones GH acts by interacting with a specific receptor on the surface of cells.” It increases protein synthesis. Which means you build muscles faster, stronger, better, whatever.
You can argue the details all day, but it is banned albeit much later than it should have been, so it is fair to cast aspersions on people who got caught with it, especially from a lab who was busted for shipping it illegally.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel has not been accused by authorities of wrongdoing, and stopped receiving HGH just before Major League Baseball officially banned it in 2005, The News reported.
So I repeat, either you are a goddamned moron or a troll.
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just out of curiosity, do you like pro football?
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You've replied to my comments
at Field Gulls. So…? Yes.
And that has no bearing on this, because I am in no way demonizing him for it, just as I will not sit here and defend any football player I might be a fan of.
That being said, it does not make it ok to use either way.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've replied to your comments at FG?
I’m not a member at FG… I just lurk there. I’m not magic either so…
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought you had.
Either way, your SBN id works on every site.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I posted the same idea as Graham before he did!
I’m really proud of myself right now
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm getting sick of the != thing
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's definitly a dieing meme.
Incidentally “Dead meme” is a dead meme.
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But I just got it right.
I never got it right before. I had no idea it was mathematical.
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is it a dead meme?
It’s a not equals sign.
by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's used ALOT around here.
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's like saying we use the word 'and' a lot
by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And is a dead meme
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
DOWN WITH CONJUNCTIONS!
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ALL THINGS CONSIDERED I PREFER IMPLICATION
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't like what that says about you.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't that how something becomes a dead meme?
Or am I just confused?
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A dead meme is generally a joke that gets overused
!= is just a symbol.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the important distinction
is that the meme (joke or otherwise) is an invention of the subculture (LL), right?
Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?
by The Alaskan on May 12, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Memes are generally ideas or sets of ideas
It’s really bizarre to start throwing mathematical signs under the dead meme bus.
by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I always thought the "!"
meant “sarcastic exuberance”, not does not equal. I guess it works either way.
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well apparently you don't Kn much.
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a pitching specific photo
The more you K. Stay tuned for the exciting conclusion where you find out what happens.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The More You K
It’s a message for the M’s pitchers.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Surely that argument makes "Mariners" a dead meme too
Which is actually kind of fitting, I suppose.
by Alex B on May 12, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um, are you kidding me dude?
Anabolic Steroids and Human Growth Hormone COULDN’T be different.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It means that you may want to read up on their definitions.
And I left out the “more” in “couldn’t be more different.” Cry me a river dude, you can figure it out.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I was crying you a river dude.
And you need to look up their definitions, because I think they could be plenty more different.
They both increase protein synthesis, and that is the main problem with them. So, yeah. Pretty much could be a lot more different.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually no.
For one, HGH is not a steroid hormone. Consequently, the mechanism of action of the two are quite different.
Related to this - as it’s been said countless times in this thread - is the fact that the effects of anabolic steroids have been proven, while the same is not true of HGH.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a sense related to whether
or not they improve baseball performance, of course.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok.
Why would players be illegally taking HGH then? For fun? To get diabetes?
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, for something that happens
to 1 in 5000 people.. that is an awful lot of MLB players to be dealing with it.
It should be what, 2 players out of every MLB pro? 1?
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's good
because dear God was it bad math
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which part?
It’d be swell if you would correct your typos, when you have the time.
Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?
by The Alaskan on May 12, 2008 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't say that, you might hurt JI's feelings
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
JI thinks Cuddy is hotter than Cameron.
He deserves to have his feelings hurt.
by BrianL on May 12, 2008 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he...what?
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you on 13.
She is hotter than Cameron. I don’t dig Cameron’s bland features.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No no
JI thinks Cuddy is hotter than 13 AND Cameron.
by BrianL on May 12, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahh.
Ignoring that, where does JI stand on the 13 / Cameron divide?
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure about JI
but I’d take Cameron over 13.
by BrianL on May 12, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your judgement is suspect
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, by my own reasoning,
that would make Cuddy hotter than Cameron, as well.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wilford Brimley does not approve.
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, you appear to be not
familiar with the psychology of professional athletes, or athletes in general for that matter.
If they think it’ll help them, and they’re desperate enough, they’ll take it. It doesn’t mean it’s actually doing something. Most of the supplement market for body building and the like is complete crap, but people still buy the stuff.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because they think it -might- help them despite there being no evidence one way or the other right now.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't know what protein sythesis means, do you?
by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you joking?
It is how proteins get made. Do you know what proteins do and how they are used inside your muscles?
Do you know the difference in a person using biological protein synthesis versus someone using artificially enhanced ps?
If so you wouldn’t even be trying to be snide, because that is the entire reason professional sports ban it.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, you really don't know who you're dealing with
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK here's the problem with this
it’s not that Graham’s snarky or that he likes destroying people.
I sense that the BME (right?) is about to come out
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bio-medical engineer
e.g. he knows a hell of a lot more about the science of this than anyone else here
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How would you have any idea?
You have no clue what I do.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm guessing Super Bio-medical Engineer
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Super duper
just super isn’t good enough
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, I'll bite
What do you do?
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I ASKED FIRST
stop stealing my thunder, God dammit!
/end sarcasm
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll steal your thunder if I want
if by “thunder” you mean “beer in your fridge”.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, anyway...
...what DO you do?
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As am I
I’ve lost most interest in the argument, because it’s inevitable Graham will win; now I’m just curious what his job is.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well the most awesome thing is that around here
Graham always wins anyway, but for some reason ASUBoyd wanted to argue something that Graham has a ton of knowledge of. That’s not really a recipe for success…
I predict he’s a writer of some kind
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know
it really isnt hard to read science journals via google and find what the prevailing expert opinions of people who have devoted their careers to this sort of thing is, so whether I “study” it or not has no bearing on it. It really just boils down to what you can find to support your argument.
I am in law school. So, sort of has to do with writing, in a sense.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aha! The true profession comes out!
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So does this mean you were right?
About the automaton thing, I mean.
Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?
by The Alaskan on May 12, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Making yourself learned about something is nice
and a good thing. Trying to argue with someone whose education is devoted to this kind of thing… not gonna work
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, specialization is the name of the game.
You’re using the same kind of logic you tried to fault me over.
Just because someone is a doctor does not mean he knows all about endochronology or something.
I highly doubt his thesis is on the protein synthesis of HGH versus anabolic steroids and their differences in athletic performance.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're going to be a crappy lawyer
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, it is better than being a crappy blogger like you.
At least I will be making money.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OH SNAP
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you can't convince Bloggers you're not a moron
How can you be a good lawyer? You have an entire audience against you here, and unless we’re all wrong and you’re right which is highely unlikely, you’re going to have a hard time convincing anyone in a courtroom that what you say is logical or even potentially true.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lol, you're right, how I argue against
a bunch of internet buddies really reflects how good I will be at my job.
You do realize that not all lawyers are litigators right?
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you're going to be a corporate lawyer?
so much better.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
what does that even mean?
How does working with intellectual property, mergers and acquisitions, initial public offerings, or anything else they do have anything to do with the bad rap trial attorneys receive for defending criminals?
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's just as soulless
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you know a lwyer is lying?
Their mouth is moving.
by Sec 108 on May 12, 2008 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I'm saying is if you can prove you're an idiot on a baseball blog
I shudder to think of the other ways you can prove your idiocy in real life.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't you mean to say
You must be a crappy person, therefore a lawyer?
by Sec 108 on May 12, 2008 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, some Lawyers are worse than others.
ASUBoyd is one of them.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's about a billion ASU jokes
I could make here, but this is me, up here on the high road for once. Just trying it out.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
just a trial
it probably won’t last.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok...
I dont go to ASU for law school, fyi. So fire away, I could care less.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is your sn ASUBoyd then?
Why not just Boyd?
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sparky Pride!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup.
Where did you go mr. high and mighty?
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bet you're a fatty aren't you?
Just guessing.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh god, I hope someone posts the Brett picture right now
I’m not cruel enough but…
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh, I know I'm a chunky guy.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's just more of you to love.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A small Catholic school you've probably never heard of
that doesn’t have NCAA D1 sports. But I have both ASU and UA in my family and I’m married to a UA grad.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Lawyers and alma maters? Is that how low we’re sinking now?
Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?
by The Alaskan on May 12, 2008 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup.
Mom jokes are next. Whee!
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ASUBoyd appears to not be the exception
A man went to a brain store to get some brain to complete a study. He sees a sign remarking on the quality of professional brain offerred at this particular brain store. He begins to question the butcher about the cost of these brains.
“How much does it cost for engineer brain?”
“Three dollars an ounce.”
“How much does it cost for programmer brain?”
“Four dollars an ounce.”
“How much for lawyer brain?”
”$1,000 an ounce.”
“Why is lawyer brain so much more?”
“Do you know how many lawyers we had to kill to get one ounce of brain?”
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not knowing what a protein is?
I’d say that’s actually a pretty good clue that you don’t do any biology.
by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's kinda what I was thinking
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, my bad
I just knew it was something in the bio area.
I’m an AE, I admit it, I don’t know anything about the bio-engineering disciplines
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody else does either
We’re essentially free to make up our own disciplines, so I did.
by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stochastic biochemistry here we come.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I liked how I didn't actually learn any new biochemistry in that course
I just learned how to simulate it.
And then they made me do it by hand.
by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remedial biology will be fun for you next semester
Let’s start with protein synthesis meaning mRNA translation in a ribosome, move on up to the muscular proteins actin and myosin being 2 of many thousands of different proteins produced by the human body, and eventually touch on the fact that eating meat to get protein does not mean all protein is meat.
by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like shiny things.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, that is fine..
But we are only talking about the muscular proteins anyway. It doesnt matter how many are in the body.
Read that article. Or just the conclusion. So it reduces fat, increases lean muscle mass. Protein synthesis incrases are nice huh?
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, what do you do for a living?
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he's an automaton
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That'd be awesome
because then I could walk up to him, give him a quarter, and get a sandwich.
Oh, wait, you said automaton, not automat. My bad.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
been there, done that
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah hah
Nice try.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesnt matter what they take it for
the results are the same. Here.
http://www.pharmaeurope.com/hgh.php
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um...
This is written by a retailer of HGH. LOL. And the funny thing is they even acknowledge the legitimacy of the opinions of those who doubt its supposed effect of increasing athletic performance.
Random link dumping in no way supports your argument.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In short, you're 0 for 2
in finding random articles to support your case. This is not good.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What in the balls are you talking about
HGH stimulates absolutely everything, and is probably the cause of some pretty nasty diseases in excess because of organ hyperplasia. It certainly does not specifically target muscles.
I like how you’re citing a paper on patients with HGH deficiency, snipping out a small part of the conclusion, and then saying that since it causes an increase in muscle mass in diseased patients and increases protein synthesis means that the protein production uptick caused by HGH is the same as steroids.
by Graham on May 12, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course it has negative effects
why bring that up? No one is debating that.
Did you even look how it was a follow up paper to testing on healthy people with the same results?
Whether they are deficient in HGH or not doesnt matter, the whole point is to see what the HGH did to them.
And i have never said it is the same as steroids, I am pointing out why they are similar and why they are banned in every professional sport.
Go write an article on this and get it published with your data, there is more than one side to the argument. You should know this from reading journals and having to cite them for a thesis.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please stop. Graham wins.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice, well I am sure he will go on to be hired by many athletes
to help them prove that HGH did not help them at all, and all they got was a t-shirt and some diabetes.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, let him keep going
this is actually quite comical.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It needs more Graham
and less of us calling on Graham to destroy
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If only "being an idiot" were sufficient grounds for banning.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you even
read the second article?
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It isnt an article.
I was pointing out there are differing opinions on it.
here – here is one saying it does nothing by the same group. It is obviously something that can be debated all day.
http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/0000605-200805200-00215v1
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't be pedantic.
I’m clearly using “article” as a general term.
And if you want to convince someone, use an unbiased source. That was found on the website of an HGH retailer.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe
that this subthread wishes to disagree with this assertion
And i have never said it is the same as steroids
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I think "performance enhancer" and "steroid" are synonymous at this point."
“And i have never said it is the same as steroids”
You must be a shockingly bad lawyer.
“Whether they are deficient in HGH or not doesnt matter, the whole point is to see what the HGH did to them.”
I inject myself with insulin all the time just to better regulate my glucose cycles.
“Go write an article on this and get it published with your data, there is more than one side to the argument.”
My argument is twofold:
1) HGH is not the same as a steroid.
2) You don’t know the least thing about biochemistry.
Why I would want to publish papers on this is unclear, because my actual work is far more interesting.
by Graham on May 12, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
From my girlfriend
who has a degree in biology and works for a place that does anti doping research:
“Right so whoever said that it isn’t a steroid but is supposedly a performance enhancing drug is right
Steroids are small molecules, HGH is a protein”
The poster formerly known as Matt.
by bluemax on May 12, 2008 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it was me
see what you learn at…
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We are real.
That’s how rules work. Things that violate the rules are illegal. Things that don’t violate the rules are not.
What other standard could you possibly be using? Seriously. I want an answer to ths one.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are, however
the person who think Cuddy is hotter than Cameron.
by BrianL on May 12, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with him on that, I'd rather be with Cuddy
She is sexy and mature haha
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is which? And where's 13?
Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?
by The Alaskan on May 12, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cuddy is on the top
Cameron is the bottom picture
And this is 13

by BrianL on May 12, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's really no bad choice there
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Out of these three?
Cuddy is a terrible choice.
by BrianL on May 12, 2008 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Worst of the three
but still better than a whole lot of others.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, okay.
Well based on these stills, I’d have to go
1. 13
2. Cameron
3. Cuddy
And Cuddy is a distant third. But you know, SSS and all.
Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?
by The Alaskan on May 12, 2008 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say that's a bad picture of Cameron
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't find a better picture that wouldn't take up the entire screen.
by BrianL on May 12, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cameron is worth the entire screen
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the part where you don't understand the difference,
but are still willing to argue with any and all comers regarding your misuse of the term.
Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?
by The Alaskan on May 12, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He takes some wonky routes in center
he’s a RF long term.
by JI on May 12, 2008 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it's his first time out there,
with his athleticism, isn’t it possible that he eventually grows into a good CF?
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Growth is something Ankiel seems good at.
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what she said
yeah, yeah, I know, that’s bad
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember, he's pushing 30
So it makes sense for him to move off the position for Rasmus.
by JI on May 12, 2008 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I was going to add that in too
and the part about Rasmus, but I meant, if Rasmus wasn’t there, is it possible that he eventually turns into a good CF? I think another thing to consider is that he probably doesn’t have as much wear and tear on his body as the average 28-year old outfielder just because of all that time he spent pitching and not playing the field every day, so he could possibly have a longer career in the OF than a normal guy his age.
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good defensive CFers on the wrong side of 30
are not typical
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You've seen it, but...
what do you make of this?
by marc w on May 12, 2008 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How the A's do that well throwing Jack Cust out there baffles me
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 1:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's pretty simple
it’s called “pray that they don’t hit it to left”
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, ours is more along the lines of
“pray they always hit it to third”
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a Mariner blog
Stop talking about the A’s.
by Graham on May 12, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even though you've managed to touch on the Rays, Nats, Pirates, and Cardinals in this thread.
Sure thing.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To quote mark w
whoosh
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.. i think whoosh to you
He was trying to make fun of me for a thread a few weeks ago where i said “stop talking about the Rays”
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You expect me to remember back that far?
pffft
Felix Hernandez may be The King, but Justin Upton is a GOD.
"I eagerly await the day when I can shit in the living room"
~Robert
by Goose on May 12, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a Mariners blog
Stop talking about the Rays
by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, thanks, got the reference you were trying to make the first time.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a Mariners blog
Stop discussing other people’s comments
by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like our little snookums is feeling extra snarky today
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on May 12, 2008 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a Mariners blog
Stop talking about ASU
by Graham on May 12, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a written communication medium
Stop talking.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
There are other things to do here
besides trolling.
by JI on May 12, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Naw, he's not a troll
just a little more of the “old school” thought variety than most of the rest of the LL-ers I think
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stats question
This is the perfect post to ask a question I’ve been pondering for awhile.
How do we figure out something like singles/doubles against a particular fielder? I would like to know, for instance, the slugging percentage against a player for balls in his zone.
The main reason why I am pondering this is because I’ve taken several friends to the ballpark this year, and have declared to each of them that if a ball is hit to Raul, it has three outcomes:
1) The ball is caught for an out
2) The ball was a line drive and bounced before him for a single
3) The ball is near the line and is automatically a double.
un-numbered) OR, Ichrio saves his ass
By the end of the game, each of my friends are convinced that my hypothesis is correct. We observe a fair number of each of these, with the glaring problem of the 4 or 5 doubles Raul might give up in a particular game. I was there on Saturday—his doubles problem can pretty much be attributed to costing a fair amount of those runs.
I more or less am interested in somehow combining in-zone and out-of-zone plays and what happens with those plays. I think it would be valuable, for instance, to see which outfielders have the highest zone-slugging-against, and it might even be interesting for infielders that let zone balls go by. I don’t think the counting data of what happens with in-zone plays is available except in terms of put-outs and non-put-outs. Am I wrong? Do you guys think it is a worthless thought?
by batura on May 12, 2008 2:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
People do this
It’s exactly like you say – you look at the batted balls in a player’s zone and take it one step beyond whether he made the catch or not.
Unfortunately I don’t know where to find those numbers, and I can’t run the calculations myself. However, I think you’ll find that, generally speaking, a ball that drops against Raul will go for a double just about as often as a ball that drops against, say, Carl Crawford, so instead of having slugging percentages against fielders you can just look at the regular fielding data and assume that the hit distribution ratios against each player are pretty similar.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brett, Boyd, everyone not named Graham - knock it off.
Discuss things politely or don’t discuss them at all.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 3:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Because fuck posting way on the right
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rec'd
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
STICK IT TO THE SBN MAN
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Off I will consider it knocked.
Sorry.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too, sorry Jeff
I’ll go to my corner and be quiet
by Sec 108 on May 12, 2008 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes sir
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay.
At least I can call Brett “chunky guy” now.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair, you could've before too.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha, why show the sense of humor now?
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want to get into another argument
But I thought I was showing it before. But I’m not going to let this divulge as I’m already in time-out.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is hard to convey tone with text, so plenty of things come across differently
to different people who are reading them, as we have all learned.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He prefers "pleasantly plump".
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where's the picture!?
WHERE’S THE GODDAMN PICTURE!?
by BrianL on May 12, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I shouldn't think this is as funny as everyone else should I?
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd prefer to just work out and make it go away.
It’s hard though, so the process is moving along very, very, very, very, very slowly.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just kidding, thats not funny to joke about.
Thats cool.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah feel free to joke.
I think you can either joke about everything or nothing. If one thing is banned to not hurt someone’s feelings, where do you draw the line? And eventually I won’t be fat anyway. But as it is, I have some extra baggage and a sizeable gut, so mock away.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude they don't call me....
Ehhhh maybe I shouldn’t give out all my fat nicknames on LL
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you take that line from South Park? Because it is a near verbatim quote from
Trey and Matt about their Cartoon Wars episodes.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure Carlin said something about it too.
Regardless, I agree with both of them.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You aint half as fat as I am.
I make Turbo look good.
by BrianL on May 12, 2008 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Get at it while you can, because a lot of people
find it hard to stay in shape/get in better shape after college.
My college has a track and a weight room 300 feet from my dorm, which is convenient, needless to say.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. I've got weights which I use every night.
It’s cardio that’s tough for me. I want to run, untill I get about a mile into the run.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 12, 2008 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Get a bike
It’s done wonders for me. I have, I would wager, a few more pounds to lose than you, and I hate running. Biking has changed my life. I ride about 40-50 miles in a typical week and it’s the best exercise I get.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One has to have a nice place to bike, though. Take my situation. I live in the shithole of Washington—surrounded by Hilltop, Lakewood, Parkland, and Spanaway.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Riding around and around and around Point Defiance ad nauseum is your friend
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, the Idaho of Washington.
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on May 12, 2008 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's definitely the Nampa-Caldwell of Washington
otherwise fuck off
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's the bait. Don't take it.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not all Idaho is like that.
I have family in Boise, and it beats what I have seen of Spokane.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I lived in Boise for several years
It’s really a fantastic little city. I love it there
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does Idaho stir up bad memories? haha
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
McCall Idaho is what makes Corco tick
I go off if anyone mentions it
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This should not be construed as an invitation to mention it
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Corcobating is expressly forbidden
Even unintentional Corcobaiting.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was all me...you did nothing wrong.
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on May 12, 2008 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except for asserting that HGH is synomymous with steroids.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't think he'd take the bait....
And I find it funny an entire state is off-limits (for good reasons though)
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on May 12, 2008 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I live 20 mins from Idaho, and I've never felt the urge to talk about it
other than Athol is a great name for a town.
That’s it.
by JI on May 12, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it named after the South African playwright Athol Fugard?
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good. He was a wanker.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's named after Athol Mass. I think
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know those areas very well
what makes them not nice? Traffic, lack of good streets?
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too much
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too much Corco driving around with cameras
flipping off bikers
It’s dangerous
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They're pretty much continual commercial strip and ghetto wrapped into
one less than appetizing package. Traffic, shitty scenery, crime, too many bums, the works.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only one of those that biking can't help
is traffic. Everything else on that list is irrelevant on a bike.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's no good.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A matter of fact,
I have never once seen a biker on the streets immediately surrounding PLU.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's incredibly strange for a college area
but I guess I’m just spoiled because Portland’s pretty much the best biking city in the US.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fucking bicycles are fucking everywhere
by Graham on May 12, 2008 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's for the better
if I had a dollar for every time I’ve almost hit a biker that decided that stop signs don’t apply to him/her I’d have way too much money
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is weird
I’m right by Palo Alto and there are bikers EVERYWHERE.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know someone who goes to that CC in Des Moines
That has got to be worse, right?
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Having spent extensive time in both
Des Moines is wayyyy nicer than the Tacoma area.
Des Moines is boring, but it’s clean and a pretty nice little city
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and you meant Washington not Iowa
never mind
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha, yeah Washington.
I’ve never been to Iowa.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fuck Tacoma.
When I graduate from college, I’ll have at least one place to scratch off my list on where to live in the future.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Corconcurred
although the community immediately surrounding UPS is nice
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by I'm NOT Corco on May 12, 2008 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fuck both of you
Get out of my town, you fucking college kids.
Tacoma=my lawn
by marc w on May 12, 2008 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The area around PLU is about the worst place to be.
As someone who briefly attended PLU, and currently resides near UPS, I say this with an enormous amount of authority. North Tacoma is a damn fine place to be.
Is it just me, or is this AJ trade looking worse every day?
by The Alaskan on May 12, 2008 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find long distance running to have a
pretty significant mental factor. One has to push themselves. I’m in pretty damn good shape, but sometimes find it hard to run farther than even a mile. I’ll be huffing, and be like: “fuck this, enough for today,” even though I have it in me to run farther.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's actually why I quit running
I couldn’t go more than a mile or 1.5 miles before I’d get completely annoyed with the whole process. I’ll still warm up/down at the gym with 10 mins or so on the treadmill, but for serious cardio it’s bikes all the way. Plus, riding’s easier on the knees.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, knees
How I miss having a non-Doyle’d right leg.
by Graham on May 12, 2008 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish I'd started riding before I ruined my knee
I still can’t ride more than about 60 miles at a time, and that depresses me.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Try dropping to butterfly
Actually, don’t
by Graham on May 12, 2008 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell me about it
Of course that 20 years ago, so I barely remember.
by Sec 108 on May 12, 2008 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've got to figure out something better than running
because I’m the same way – 2 miles and then it’s just like “fuck it I quit”
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cycling, swimming
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Run naked
You’ll never be bored.
by Jeff Sullivan on May 12, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great advice.
Come on up here in August for the Wreck Beach marathon. Hundreds of nude runners fill the streets.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2 miles really isn't that bad of a workout.
I regularly run that amount 5 days a week. Good cardio workout and doesn’t take that much of a time commitment.
by redwolf75 on May 12, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, my biggest problem is trying to actually do it
I usually try to do it like 3-4 times a week
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you are running 2 miles 3 or 4 times a week that is solid
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trying to lose weight though
hmmm, maybe I should stop eating so much junk food…
My personal goal is 10 miles a week one way or the other… we’ll see if I get there
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah. Well, when you get there that is good for maintaining.
You should throw down some Hydroxycut. I have a classmate who has been using the MuscleTech one with his workouts and it definitely works. Or seems to.
by ASUBoyd on May 12, 2008 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A friend of mine weighed as much about 385 before he dropped to 260.
He did it in only 4 months. How, you ask?
Chemotherapy. He had testicular cancer.
And he’s 6-9, so 260’s a good weight for him.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on May 12, 2008 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So all I need to do is get cancer, huh?
I’m like 6-0, 190 right now, which is WAY to much given that I’ve been like 170 all through college
by seattlebruin on May 12, 2008 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wii Fit comes out soon
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on May 12, 2008 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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