Every Hole Can Get Deeper
by Jeff Sullivan on Apr 25, 2008 3:04 PM PDT
in Seattle Mariners News, Bad
Email
PrintThe Impossible Dream, yesterday morning:
C: Clement
1B: Teixeira
DH: Griffey
LF: Someone awesome
The Impossible Dream, today:
C: Johjima
1B: Clement
DH: Griffey
LF: Someone awesome
This extension even made my fantasy world worse. I can no longer dream as big as I could a day ago. That's...really depressing. But you know what? I found out about this at 1:55 and was over it by 2. I don't like what this organization has done to me as a person, but I suppose there's a certain resilience in being in being spiritually and emotionally dead.
For the record, this isn't as bad as a lot of people think it is (that being "one of the worst moves ever"). Not in isolation, as Kenji's still a decent catcher. It's the context and the way this fits so perfectly into the front office's established pattern of behavior that makes this dumb. A move like this just reinforces the impression that no one upstairs understands aging curves or the benefits of cheap young talent. So instead of being able to look forward to an offseason of potential awesome, now we've been shaken right back into awaiting the Ibanez extension and Clement trade for Octavio Dotel. Because, why wouldn't those happen? What reason do we have to expect otherwise?
We weren't born pessimistic. We were made this way.
Onward, broken soldiers.
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Yeah, I'm ready to move on
Kenji is going to be terrible pretty soon, but that’s what precious, delicious, mid-numbing alcohol is for.
I worry about Clement at 1st, but whatever… its better than Sexson and cheaper than BigTex
To Be Fair...
...an Ibanez extension and trading Clement for Dotel are worlds apart. Ibanez leads the AL in RBIs (I know, not a super stat, but not completely worthless either). Clement and Dotel are different in every respect.
Despite how Ibanez was looking in the first half of ‘07, he’s really not as bad as his reputation around here. Though, yes, his defense is marginal.
Pigs flying. Hell getting chilly. Bavasi having a good off-season. If the M's can't win this year, there's really no hope.
While I Understand Your Point...
...this is an oversimplification. RBI’s are partially about the team, but also about a player’s ability to get timely hits. If they hit better with RISP, they are more likely to get more RBI’s, for example.
Pigs flying. Hell getting chilly. Bavasi having a good off-season. If the M's can't win this year, there's really no hope.
I admit that I'm completely irrational about Clement
I don’t think this is one of the worst moves ever, I just think it’s one of the stupidest moves ever.
That's an important distinction.
Support local music.
by Aaron Campeau on Apr 25, 2008 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Well... yeah...
that was sort of my problem with it as well. Its stupidity.
...and now I'm here
I want Griffey's defense nowhere close to our outfield
by Jeff Sullivan on Apr 25, 2008 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Can't be worse than what's out there already.
Plus, you really think he’s itching to DH?
by JI on Apr 25, 2008 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions
A corner outfield of Raul/Griffey would pretty much eliminate us from playoff contention
by Jeff Sullivan on Apr 25, 2008 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
I think Griffey is worse
although it’s worth pointing out that we’re currently not in playoff contention
by Jeff Sullivan on Apr 25, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Griffey can't be worse
he’s faster (at least faster than Raul) and his routes aren’t nearly as wonky.
by JI on Apr 25, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
He's faster... until his legs explode
then he is much slower
Can we hope for Wlad in one corner Griffey in the other, Raul gone?
If so, does that keep us in contention despite sucking at deciding who should be the catcher and forcing Griff to play the field?
So…
LF Wlad
RF Griffey
1B Teix
DH Clement
...?
God I hate having to alter impossibly awesome dreams
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on Apr 25, 2008 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions
That would be okay but I'd really prefer decent defense everywhere if possible
by Jeff Sullivan on Apr 25, 2008 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Will not be possible with this frotn office group
We don't negotiate with terrorists.
by Mariner John on Apr 26, 2008 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't we somewhat have tthat now?
Wilkerson may have come in ~average, but his legs don’t work anymore AND he takes bad routes.
...and now I'm here
I think Clement's gone, and soon.
Like, before the end of May. This belief is quite terrifying.
Support local music.
Why did we draft Clement if we weren't looking to use him?
Clement was drafted on a needs-based purpose, when usually you draft the best talent available in baseball. Ryan Braun would look real good in LF or RF at the moment. But hey, he wouldn’t have been called up yet anyway.
Yes he was.
Clement was not considered the top talent available when we drafted him. But he fit perfectly for what this organization was looking for.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050607&content_id=1079469&vkey=news_sea&fext=.jsp&c_id=sea
He was a left handed power bat at catcher, which is why he was drafted when he was
He was not picked because we thought we’d need a catcher 4 years from the draft.
by Graham MacAree on Apr 25, 2008 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, not 4 years down the road, but immediately, yes.
“Miguel Olivo, designated as the organization’s catcher of the present and future in Spring Training, has struggled so much this season that he was sent to the Minor Leagues two weeks ago. Furthermore, there isn’t another catcher in the system ready to step in and give the Mariners what they need—run production.”
There is no way denying Clement wasn’t a needs-based pick. Kenji Johjima just happened to be available in the offseason to give Clement more time in the minors. Look how far we have come. :-/
This is silly
Catchers are notoriously slow to develop, and nobody in their right mind thought Clement would be able to make an immediate impact (especially with concerns about defence). The fact that MLB.com thinks the pick was made because Miguel Olivo is just indicative of the fact that have no idea what they’re talking about.
by Graham MacAree on Apr 25, 2008 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Jim Street was the Mariners beat reporter. We know he wasn't the greatest, but there are plenty of other quotes from the Mariners FO in that article that proves my point.
I am not trying to antagonize you, but stop denying it. Clement was drafted out of college. His development was far-and-above high school talent and was expected to make the leap within a short period of time (1-2 years).
Catchers are notorious for being slow to develop and quick to decline
This isn’t something I’ve made up.
by Graham MacAree on Apr 25, 2008 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions
It doesn't mean Clement wasn't a needs-based pick.
There was clearly better talent available for the 3rd overall pick, but the Mariners decided to go another direction and find their catcher of the future.
Are we debating two different things here or are we on the same page?
I don't accept that there was clearly better talent
Leading up to the 2005 draft, there were two picks head and shoulders above the rest – Justin Upton and Alex Gordon. Below them were guys like Clement, Tulo, Braun, Zimmerman, Maybin, etc, but arguments could have been made to take any one of them based on talent.
Now the way the draft turned out, a lot of the players picked immediately after Clement have turned out awesome, but at the time of the draft Clement was a defensible 3rd pick just based on talent (which of course includes his ability to play catcher), signability, and ballpark fit. I think calling him a needs-based pick is overstating things, especially with everyone and their mother predicting the Johjima signing that year.
by Graham MacAree on Apr 25, 2008 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Pujols would look go at first, we should have picked him too.
by JI on Apr 25, 2008 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Also, are we ever going to find out Pujols' real age.
I expect this now that Tejada (coughTejedacough) has been exposed.
He's 19
he just looks really haggard.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
Alright, if we're abandoning Jeff Clement the Catcher
can we at least get him up here and sit Vidro on the bench?
If we're guaranteed to not move Raul out of LF then yes we flipping better
by Jeff Sullivan on Apr 25, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm convinced that Raul will be in left field all year.
Might as well embrace Clement the DH.
Would a one year deal for Johjima been fine?
With Clement splitting time between catcher and DH?
Cheeseburgers are delicious.
I'm not celebrating. I would have been fine with a one year deal for him, though.
Cheeseburgers are delicious.
fine is a loaded word
It would have been much less sucky, but likely still unneeded.
Again
IF this move means they’re abandoning Clement-for-C, then yeah, it’s immensely stupid.
But we don’t KNOW this yet. Yeah, it seems like a hell of a commitment in time and money for a back-up/part time catcher, but if that’s what it is, I’ll take it.
Joh gets on well with a number of pitchers, including Felix and Putz. He doesn’t get along with Washburn. All of this makes me like him more.
If the idea is to bring Clement up now to play some DH, to watch Joh/Burke catch and to catch the odd game, great. Burke’s gone, Sexson’s gone, (pleasepleaseplease) Vidro’ll be gone – then you can have Clement/Johjima split time at C, and have Ibanez/Clement split time at DH. This is not so bad.
It would be an overpay, but a defensible one.
I agree
I think the key line is:
“This extension allows us to feel very comfortable with our catching depth for the foreseeable future.”
Depth = if Clement’s ready, great, if not, we have a backup plan other than Burke
You assume the M's will run a productive platoon.
Quite the assumption.
by JI on Apr 25, 2008 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah, I know
I didn’t say it was terribly likely, but seriously – this would be HARD to screw up if you were a team with any intelligence.
Hey, this guy hits lefty, this guy hits righty. How about that?
If it were any other team
I don’t think we’d gone apeshit over this.
by JI on Apr 25, 2008 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Jimmy Fallon taking over for Conan when he moves to Leno's spot
now this is a bad move
It's been in the works for a long time, actually
I don’t know, I guess I could see Fallon being all right in that role. I’m more worried that Conan is going to start sucking when he takes over the Tonight Show.
Yeah, Conan being forced to be more PC will suck
Its better when he’s being
no more masturbating bear :(
Or fights with Colbert and Jon Stewart
No matter how bad Wilkerson is, We can always remember the Jeff Manto suckfest.
by PhilKenSebben on Apr 25, 2008 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions
At least it's not Carson Daly like I feared.
And at least Jimmy Fallon will have a job where he’s actually encouraged to always keep eye contact with the camera instead of doing it anyway.
Hmm... Needs more Bonds.
Agreed..Carson Daly is terrible
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on Apr 25, 2008 11:46 PM PDT up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL2UsAbI1hg
...and now I'm here
And Bavasi says
“I would guess that at some point along the way, because of Jeff’s bat - and asusming Kenji plays the way he can - Jeff’s going to get exposed to another position at some point,’’ Bavasi said. “But we have not given up on him as a catcher. A lefthanded hitting catcher with power, those are real tough to find. So, this doesn’t change Jeff’s track to the big leagues much at all. Because his track to the big leagues is with his bat more than his glove anyway.’‘
Thank you Geoff Baker for asking him about it, since most other beat writes would not take the time to bother.
Go Fo Broke!
And thank you Bavasi
for giving an answer that both contradicts itself and doesn’t answer the question.
...and now I'm here
I'm guessing
That we won’t see Clement in a big league uniform until right around the trading deadline, if at all this year.
Midnight Baseball - No Lights - Only in Alaska!
unless there's an injury.
Midnight Baseball - No Lights - Only in Alaska!
by MfaninAlaska on Apr 25, 2008 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Is it just me
or have we lost the upcoming game preview section that was docked on the right and above the new threads?
Baker's got notes from the conference:
http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mariners/2008/04/johjima_press_conference.html
Bavasi via Baker:
“I would guess that at some point along the way, because of Jeff’s bat - and asusming Kenji plays the way he can - Jeff’s going to get exposed to another position at some point,’’ Bavasi said. “But we have not given up on him as a catcher. A lefthanded hitting catcher with power, those are real tough to find. So, this doesn’t change Jeff’s track to the big leagues much at all. Because his track to the big leagues is with his bat more than his glove anyway.’‘
And thank you Bavasi
for giving an answer that both contradicts itself and doesn’t answer the question.
...and now I'm here
Baker talked to Bavasi, by the way
You should see what he had to say, kind of skirted the issue and contradicted himself…
I'm not sure it's contradictory
... I think it says Clement won’t be around after this year and maybe after July. Having built a decent farm system, Bavasi is now blowing it up. Does that mean he gets credit for building it in the first place?
Good work Librocrat and thank you so much!
I just read your two comments as I was drinking my coffee. It has been too long since someone made me laugh like that around here.
The user formerly known as Sec 108.
knowing the M's they'll give him the Morse treatment
and throw him out in the outfield where he’ll be awful defensively so they’ll be able to justify keeping him in Tacoma to “refine” his defense.
Midnight Baseball - No Lights - Only in Alaska!
by MfaninAlaska on Apr 25, 2008 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Clement in the outfield would be unthinkably awesome
by Jeff Sullivan on Apr 25, 2008 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Yuni's getting too fat
and how often can you get a LH power bat out of your SS?
I think the timing of it
is the most hilarious part…..
Bavasi must have really missed the boat on how to spin things…. here’s a catcher hitting .200/.268/.246. I’ve just made a deal on an extension so, lets announce it right now, instead of sitting on it for another month to see if his numbers go up.
Midnight Baseball - No Lights - Only in Alaska!
Mariners Philosophy.
“If a player is going to fall off the cliff he’s going to do so under OUR watch, guaranteed!”
More Bavasi Brilliance:
“There is nothing in Kenji’s game that would indicate there is a downturn in his game,” Bavasi said. “These guys have jobs to do and Jeff’s job is to chase him and [Kenji’s] job is to keep Jeff in the Minor Leagues. That being said, we will let the players decide what’s going to happen.”
...and now I'm here
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