Rosenthal: M's Kicking the Tires on Frank Fucking Thomas
by JI on Apr 22, 2008 9:17 AM PDT
128 comments
The Mariners, getting little production from DH Jose Vidro, have said they will consider signing Frank Thomas. The A's, short on right-handed power, plan to at least discuss him.
So here's the question: Is Thomas finished? "He looked like he was on rollerblades, sliding all over the box," says a scout who saw him recently. "His balance was poor. His bat speed was poor. His approach was poor. He was only hitting changeups — that was the only ball he could get to."
Still, scouts were saying much the same thing about Thomas, who turns 40 on May 27, in the early parts of each of the past two seasons. One GM says he finds it difficult to believe that Thomas no longer could contribute coming off a 26-homer, 95-RBI season.
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Well
He’s better than Vidro. That’s about all I can say, though.
I’d rather have Bonds, but we all know that’s not going to happen. Realistically, I’d rather have Reed in left, Raul at DH.
by BrianL on Apr 22, 2008 9:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
One GM says he finds it difficult to believe that Thomas no longer could contribute coming off a 26-homer, 95-RBI season.
Thank you to contributing to the discussion, Mr Sabean, now please sit the fuck down and enjoy your 90 loss season.
the artist formerly known as Mere Tantalisers.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Apr 22, 2008 9:47 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why the growing Reed love? How did it come to this?
Yes, he will improve defence. But his bat won’t help much. People are assuming that he would come in and Raul would go to DH. Have the organisation got the balls to move The Face Of The Franchise to DH? Would Raul allow this?
I’d rather see Kenny Fucking Loften replace Wilkerson – because I doubt that Raul will move out of LF until he physically cannot throw anymore [he already cannot move and this has not proven to be enough to convince the M’s that he is a cockpunch in the field].
Beware of the GTE.
by EnglishMariner on Apr 22, 2008 9:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, think of it this way.
At the worst, Reed sucks it up at the plate as much as Vidro does. However, Vidro adds nothing to the club defensively. Reed is one of the few people in the organization with the range to play left field. A more likely scenario is that Reed hits marginally to moderately better than Vidro does, and doesn’t clog up the basepaths when he does get on board.
Someone mentioned in another thread that Raul was expecting (and sounds like he was hoping) to be moved to DH this season. He’ll do it, and probably won’t complain too much about it.
by BrianL on Apr 22, 2008 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I read somewhere that Raul was OK with DHing - perhaps on USSM, or even here
or there’s also chance that I dreamed this. I’ll try to find the link
by seattlebruin on Apr 22, 2008 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Raul wants to DH, as Matthew said plus he was the primary starting DH in 2005...
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on Apr 22, 2008 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So let me get this straight...
Raul wants to DH.
Raul sucks in LF.
Our DH sucks.
WELL THEN WHY THE FUCK IS RAUL IBANEZ NOT OUR EVERYDAY D FUCKING H?
Beware of the GTE.
by EnglishMariner on Apr 22, 2008 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Howie, Chuck, and Billy
just want what’s best for Raul.
And by that I mean they want his legs to fall off by July.
by BrianL on Apr 22, 2008 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why not move the face of the franchise to DH?
The M’s did it with Edgar, and it extended his franchise saving career by years.
by Kevman22 on Apr 22, 2008 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beat me by a second.
Your favorite meme is dead
by Edanger6 on Apr 22, 2008 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys think there is any chance
Raul gets moved to DH this year? I really can’t see it happening, especially in the middle of the season. Even if Bavasi/McLaren are aware he is a problem, I can’t see them wanting to upset their fan favorite/stand-up guy/professional hitter.
With that in mind, go get Thomas, please.
by ack on Apr 22, 2008 9:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Raul I think realizes
that he physically can’t handle an every day outfield assignment for an entire season. If Vidro is jettisoned, I think Raul might suggest moving himself into the DH hole.
by BrianL on Apr 22, 2008 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Raul was the starting DH in 2005
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on Apr 22, 2008 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I'm saying is the organization IS willing to make Raul the DH
So all the talk about the org not wanting to move their “Fan Favorite” to DH is bullshit.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on Apr 22, 2008 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No I agree that times have changed
and Raul was much less of a fan favorite back then, I’m just saying that this revelation that he would like to DH is new to most people and they aren’t all up to speed. Actually I think the move to DH would make him more popular because Raul = New Edgar(!).
by JI on Apr 22, 2008 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That potential PR spin
just caused the front office to collectively wet themselves.
by BrianL on Apr 22, 2008 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah i had no idea
For the millionth fucking time, how fucking stupid was it to tie up the DH position for 1-2 years with a guy who can’t hit for power, can’t play defense, and forces us to play the worst defensive outfielder in baseball in left field.
by ack on Apr 22, 2008 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vidro's probably the worse deal.
With both HoRam and Heathcliff, the team was trading for something they thought they needed. Soriano wasn’t a starter, and the team didn’t think he could become one, so they traded him for HoRam. And Heathcliff was traded for prospects (both of whom turned out pretty well).
Both bad deals, no question, but to acquire Vidro, an aging, injury-prone, powerless, and expensive DH, we traded away a young, injury-prone, power-hitting, inexpensive DH… and Fruto. There are literally zero people in the world who both qualify as vaguely intelligent and thought that was a good idea.
by Llewdor on Apr 22, 2008 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The "injury prone" part being key.
The only reason to get rid of snelling is becuase of his injuries, why would we get another person with injuries and no resemblance to a DH skillset. That was really terrible.
Though I will disagree only on one point. While you’re correct that a left handed starter was something we needed, Horacio Ramirez had a long history of failure, and there was absolutely no reason to believe he was going to be even an MLB quality back end starter. So that’s debatably as stupid. The thought was a little more correct, but the execution was terrible.
...and now I'm here
by Librocrat on Apr 22, 2008 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A few people seriously believed he was a bright young pitcher
but (my guess is) probably because he was overhyped coming through the Braves system.
by JI on Apr 22, 2008 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
UH, NO
The HoRam deal was the worst. Not only did it make the team worse, but it also opened up a hole in the bullpen that was filled by Brandon Morrow. Brandon Morrow is still in the bullpen.
by tait644 on Apr 22, 2008 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope you're being sarcastic. The Vidro deal was more emotionally damaging but not nearly as bad as HoRam
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on Apr 22, 2008 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know I'll never be able to be fully objective about it
But the Vidro trade was just so fucking stupid on so many levels, the Soriano for HoRam trade was a stupid fucking trade based on a good idea (trade an injury prone reliever for an young, pre-arb starter, with a highish ceiling), and bad talent evaluation.
by JI on Apr 22, 2008 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but Ho never had a high-ish ceiling.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on Apr 22, 2008 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They thought he did.
I remember when Ho was a highly touted prospect.
by JI on Apr 22, 2008 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vidro deal was wrong because it was the exact opposite of a sensical decision.
The Ho deal was simply a bad trade. I’m not necessarily disagreeing but I can see why it is difficult to fully judge which is actually worse.
...and now I'm here
by Librocrat on Apr 22, 2008 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't it great being a Mariner fan?
We get to argue about which trade was a bigger clusterfuck.
by BrianL on Apr 22, 2008 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a real shame that there has to be a loser
by Robert on Apr 22, 2008 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I vote Vidro for this administartion
and Kevin Mitchell for 2nd, because
A) They sold the farm for him (I want to say more than we gave up for Bedard, but I’m not sure what the consensus was on Swift/Burba/Jacko)
and
B) They only stuck with him for one year, as soon as they got rid of Mitchell he rolled of two seasons of hitting .~330 with .600 SLG.
by JI on Apr 22, 2008 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who did we give up.
I only see Norm Charlton.
...and now I'm here
by Librocrat on Apr 22, 2008 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I'm sorry, ignore this. I misread the baseball-reference thingy.
...and now I'm here
by Librocrat on Apr 22, 2008 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I voted for Thomas.
We all know Reed is not going to replace Ibanez in LF and Ibanez replace Vidro at DH. If you are going to put a stipulate about Bonds in there, then this line of thinking would also eliminate the possibility of Reed replacing Ibanez.
I want Frank because he will come cheap and add a legit threat to the lineup, even though he has so far struggled early on. This will also allow Vidro’s 2009 contract not to vest; which, ironically, is why Toronto let FT go.
by Wilder. on Apr 22, 2008 9:52 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If we sign Thomas it's an upgrade, for next year too
Not that he’ll be playing here next year, I mean Vidro’s option won’t be activated because he’ll be on the bench.
I vote yes for this move. He’ll cost like 300 grand or some crap. If he doesn’t work out they can always cut him and go back to friggin Vidro.
by marinator on Apr 22, 2008 9:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Bavasi will give like seven million or something
that’s my greatest fear. Seven million dollars worth of Frank Fucking Thomas
by seattlebruin on Apr 22, 2008 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, if it's only a one year contract
I can live with that. Stupid financially, but not crippling in the long-term.
by BrianL on Apr 22, 2008 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would Bavasi do that?
Thomas won’t care, he just wants to play somewhere and he’s already getting paid from the Blue Jays.
Seems like there is minimal interest right now in Thomas so signing him to the minimum doesn’t seem far fetched.
Of course this is Fumblebum Bavasi we’re talking about, so point noted.
by marinator on Apr 22, 2008 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thomas gets the same amount of money regardless of how big the contract is (or whether there is one).
As such, money can’t persuade him to play anywhere.
by Llewdor on Apr 22, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who cares about $7M? This isn't football...
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
by Phildopip on Apr 22, 2008 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If management lets Vidro's contract vest
That will be unforgivable.
by cwel87 on Apr 22, 2008 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
More Lefties Please...
Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum
by PositivePaul on Apr 22, 2008 10:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This year?
I’d leave Raul in LF… bring up Clement to replace Vidro at DH…. give Clement a couple starts a week at catcher. He’d provide the biggest improvement to this team with his left handed power, even though it leaves Raul in LF with his subpar defense.
Midnight Baseball - No Lights - Only in Alaska!
by MfaninAlaska on Apr 22, 2008 10:33 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm still not in favor of having Clement play DH.
I voiced this over in Baker’s blog as well.
I’m not even going to address the “Clement needs to work on being a catcher” argument. That’s been done to death. Rather, I really want to see Raul at DH, and not just to keep him out of the outfield.
Raul is a pretty good hitter who seems to be tailor-made to hit at Safeco Field. I worry that playing in the outfield every day is going to take a toll on his body by mid-season. Hell, even Raul realizes that he’s not an every-day outfielder anymore. In order to maximize his production, he needs to be a designated hitter.
by BrianL on Apr 22, 2008 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is
by bringing up Clement to DH, and using him at catcher 2 or 3 times a week, you are giving Raul the opportunity to be a DH 2 or 3 times a week giving his body a chance to rest…. you’re also maximizing your youth by getting Clement experience at this level so you can see if he’ll be able to take over full time for Kenji. You are also maximizing the effects of Safeco by adding another power hitting Left handed batter.
Midnight Baseball - No Lights - Only in Alaska!
by MfaninAlaska on Apr 22, 2008 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But is that really what's best for Clement and the ML club?
Any mistakes Clement makes behind the dish while on a big-league club that’s trying to fight for a playoff spot are going to be magnified. That could prove to be catastrophic for his development. This is a club that might see him at catcher in major league games and decide that he’s not cut out for it and move him to DH, where he goes from being potentially one of the better players in the league at his position to decidedly league-average.
It would be the non-pitching equivalent of what the club has done to Morrow.
by BrianL on Apr 22, 2008 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't think
Clement’s going to be atroscious behind the plate, but I guess there is always the concern that he could struggle defensively. Even though, I think what he brings offensively vs. Thomas or Reed is going to greatly enhance the M’s offensively to the point where his defense won’t be as big of an issue 2 or 3 games a week. It’s not like Kenji is the best defensive catcher in the league.
Midnight Baseball - No Lights - Only in Alaska!
by MfaninAlaska on Apr 22, 2008 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about...
Bronson Kiheimahanaomauiakeo Sardinha
by dkulich on Apr 22, 2008 10:43 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Too busy playing golf.
Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum
by PositivePaul on Apr 22, 2008 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was released.
I don’t know why exactly, but he was on the suspended list briefly before that.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/milb-mariners/
by JY on Apr 22, 2008 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh wow yeah...
just noticed he hasn’t played in a while. Glad the new Rainiers website shows us that information. He’s still listed on their roster.
by dkulich on Apr 22, 2008 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting development, that
With Charlton Jimerson coming in, I figured they just purged him to make room and keep Brent Johnson, but I didn’t know he was on the suspended list.
by Gomez on Apr 22, 2008 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm wondering why Reed is winning over Lofton.
I have the impression Kenny has a more capable bat, and they’re both good outfielders. Is it a financial thing?
Formerly Alaskan, until Alaska showed up at the SB Nation switch. Thanks for nothing, Alaska!
by The Alaskan on Apr 22, 2008 10:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Has Kenny lost a step, or is Reed just that good?
Formerly Alaskan, until Alaska showed up at the SB Nation switch. Thanks for nothing, Alaska!
by The Alaskan on Apr 22, 2008 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reed's an average glove for CF
Lofton is above average in LF, but well below average in CF. Therefore, the average CF will be better in LF.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on Apr 22, 2008 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lofton sucks at throwning
and comes with Veteran Entitlement Privileges
by JI on Apr 22, 2008 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lofton's the better hitter by a far amount, though.
I voted Lofton.
by Llewdor on Apr 22, 2008 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh what? Why is he for sure the better hitter?
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on Apr 22, 2008 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where do people get the idea that Jeremy Reed is a good MLB hitter?
I honestly don’t get it.
by Gomez on Apr 22, 2008 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was wondering the same thing
Someone above said that hes ~Vidro at the plate… Vidro isn’t a great hitter, but Reed is bad and has proven as such
by thenatural on Apr 22, 2008 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reed is better than he showed in his MLB injury year.
Which is better than Vidro IMO, but that’s not saying much.
I like midgets more than I should.
by Thingray on Apr 22, 2008 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's gotta be at least a .720 OPS
That’s not even good but who says Lofton can do that now?
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on Apr 22, 2008 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did last year.
We don't negotiate with terrorists.
by Mariner John on Apr 22, 2008 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Reed is about a .720 OPS (hard to believe he wouldn't be)
And has a better glove than Lofton, and is free, why not just do that?
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on Apr 22, 2008 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Lofton had a .781 OPS last year
I dont know how significant the difference is, but .781 isnt not that bad
by Karma Police on Apr 22, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we have the money, what are we saving it for?
If Lofton would be slightly better and no long-term commitment is required, why not pay for him? Are we going to spend the money somewhere else? (That’s an honest question – if you can think of somewhere else the M’s could spend it, I’d like to hear it.)
Now if it’s a toss-up, than of course you go with the guy you own.
Formerly Alaskan, until Alaska showed up at the SB Nation switch. Thanks for nothing, Alaska!
by The Alaskan on Apr 22, 2008 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Give it to me
I wouldn’t turn down $2.5M. It would make up for that abortion of a game on Saturday.
by seattlebruin on Apr 22, 2008 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Mariners are racist
Traded Jones. Let Cameron go. Won’t sign Lofton, Bonds or Thomas.
/crazy conspiracy theory
We don't negotiate with terrorists.
by Mariner John on Apr 22, 2008 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are we sure about the better defense?
I have no idea but I do remember Lofton being the death of a lot of well-hit balls last year for the Mariners.
I also think Lofton wouldn’t cost more than a Mil.
by hcoguy on Apr 22, 2008 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knew this would happen
Thomas seems like exactly the kind of player the M’s would go after, the minute he was cut I figured we would sign him.
by OlSalty on Apr 22, 2008 11:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If it mean's Turbo's option doesn't vest
I guess I can live with it.
by BrianL on Apr 22, 2008 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, The Big Hurt is AWESOME
Wait. Whaddya mean it’s not 1993?!?
by seattlebruin on Apr 22, 2008 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I picked Lofton
Reed had a halfway decent year after a hot September, then made a swing adjustment and his power disappeared. Plus he is overrated as a defender.
Lofton still has some speed, can still cover serious range in the OF and can still hit with some consistency.
by Gomez on Apr 22, 2008 11:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I picked Lofton too
because Lofton’s a better hitter, but his defense is just OK, and anyone that age has collapse potential.
by JI on Apr 22, 2008 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"The lineup is fine and dandy the way it is thank you" 1% - 1 vote
who let Bavasi have an account?
although i do want FFT, i agree that Kenny Fucking Lofton is a “bigger” upgrade.
by lemonverbena on Apr 22, 2008 11:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Late to the party, but the scout is wrong
“His balance was poor. His bat speed was poor. His approach was poor. He was only hitting changeups — that was the only ball he could get to.”
Thomas has only swung at 14 changeups all season, all three of his homers have come on fastballs, and his contact rate is way up from where it was last season.
by Jeff on Apr 22, 2008 11:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I figured
I don’t know if it’s extreme hyperbole or what, but just off the top of my head, not every pitcher throws a change.
by JI on Apr 22, 2008 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another reason
I could live with a Thomas signing, even though it’s not my first choice.
by BrianL on Apr 22, 2008 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I watched a lot of Frank's games.
His problem wasn’t bat speed, it was pitch recognition. He seemed to be having trouble seeing the ball.
It could well be a function of the way the light hits SkyDome in April – he started last year just as badly.
by Llewdor on Apr 22, 2008 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't Safeco's backdrop visibility also a relative challenge?
by Gomez on Apr 22, 2008 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haven't heard many complaints
since that black space-material crap was installed.
by BrianL on Apr 22, 2008 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I haven't heard any complaints since Boone and Cammy left.
I like midgets more than I should.
by Thingray on Apr 22, 2008 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too actually. They were one of the few things in the stadium that said "NW" to me.
I like midgets more than I should.
by Thingray on Apr 22, 2008 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IIRC K's were still higher than average at Safeco
The backdrop helped but didn’t completely remedy the problem.
by Gomez on Apr 22, 2008 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
strikeouts being higher
doesn’t mean the batting eye is tough
by Matthew on Apr 22, 2008 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
perfect!
we need more people without a clue as to what pitch is coming.
by Matthew on Apr 22, 2008 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miguel Cairo
The cause and solution to all of these little problems
by Robert on Apr 22, 2008 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So FT FTW?
At this point, unless the team indicates even in hint or jest that they will either move Raul to DH or sign Bonds, I’m going to throw my support behind a Thomas signing – even though I already voted for Reed above.
...and now I'm here
by Librocrat on Apr 22, 2008 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I personally would like to see
a defensive alignment of
Sexson/Morse/Ibanez
Lopez/Cairo/Vidro/FFT
Bloomquist
just for the entertainment value
PUT ALL THOSE EXCESS DHs TO USE
by JI on Apr 22, 2008 12:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh...oh the humanity...
That has got to be a violation of the Geneva Convention or something.
by BrianL on Apr 22, 2008 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please don't joke about this.
You might give Bavasi and McLaren ideas.
by Wilder. on Apr 22, 2008 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The firs draft had Frank Thomas in centerfield
but I had to keep it real.
by JI on Apr 22, 2008 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I expect a lot of Dickey and "Big Hurt" jokes if we do this.
Don’t let me down guys.
...and now I'm here
by Librocrat on Apr 22, 2008 1:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thomas needs to be playing at 1B
for this to be effective.
by BrianL on Apr 22, 2008 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would he actually be worse with the glove than Richie?
by AZSEAfan on Apr 22, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My only memory of Thomas fielding
is a foul ball that Ichiro hit which he dove for.
He tore his triceps as a result.
by BrianL on Apr 22, 2008 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ho's still available, last I heard...
Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum
by PositivePaul on Apr 22, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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