Lookout Landing: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: MLB Hot Stove: blogging the rumors, trades, signings Bar-right-arrows



Those motherfuckers.

Seattle city attorneys have found the smoking gun re: the Sonics owners and their supposed "good faith effort."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004339103_sonicsheds.html

In emails dating back to April of last year:

"Is there any way to move here [Oklahoma City] for next season or are we doomed to have another lame duck season in Seattle?" Ward wrote.

Bennett replied: "I am a man possessed! Will do everything we can. Thanks for hanging with me boys, the game is getting started!"

Ward: "That's the spirit!! I am willing to help any way I can to watch ball here [in Oklahoma City] next year.

Look, I know a lot of you could care less about bouncy-ball and the fact that our 19-year-old phenom just posted a better shooting percentage last month than either LeBron, Kobe, or Brandon Roy did in any month this season. This isn't about that. This about being outraged at sports owners transparently swindling cities – our city – and the fans being powerless to stop it. What a fucking joke.

0 recs | Comment 83 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

You're not really surprised by this, are you?

Everyone and their mother knew that Bennett wasn't going to keep the team in Seattle. It's time you start accepting the fact that the Sonics are property of Oklahoma now.

by BrianL on Apr 10, 2008 12:32 PM PDT   0 recs

No, I'm not surprised.

No one can really be surprised by this. The thing is, before this, accusations of carpetbagging were deniable for lack of evidence (save McClendon's slip up in the paper late last year). Here we have irrefutable, unvarnished proof, straight from Bennett's mouth. Oddly, it's a bit satisfying now that I think about it; I've long come to terms with the fact that the Supes are leaving town (if not this year than after 2010), but I want to tar and feather this slimy fucker as much as possible on his way out.

by sammy on Apr 10, 2008 12:40 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I said this about 358 times when they bought the team

They totally intended to move this team from day one. People didn't listen. When Clay told the media he intended to keep the team here, people believed him.

Uh huh.

by Gomez on Apr 10, 2008 12:32 PM PDT   0 recs

This is the story

Look, we all know that KJR is a font of unadulterated idiocy, but I heard that some of their personalities were actively championing the Clay Bennett line. I remember them having Clay Bennett on and talking about how if only Seattle fans could understand the depth of his commitment to keep the team local, and how the only problem is these damned local politicians....
I'm just shocked you can be THAT WRONG about a sports issue this big and...i don't know, stay alive. There's zero credibility anymore, and people still frequent them. They, and some other media outlets, acted as Bennett's cup bearer.

by marc w on Apr 10, 2008 1:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This is a surprise...how?

Sports are a business. Always have been, always will be. Business does not equal loyalty. Whether this is right or wrong is not really the issue - it's happening.

And as for the swindling? Seattleites have been swindled twice before - Safeco and Qwest - and they have finally said ENOUGH. Good for them. The city of Seattle will have a brand-new team in 4-5 years, and they'll even be called the Sonics again.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Apr 10, 2008 12:39 PM PDT   0 recs

You were right on until the last sentence

David Stern has stated time and again that there will be no more domestic expansion teams, and that Seattle's not on the list of new sites if any team decides to move.

Once the Sonics are gone, the NBA is gone from Seattle.

by Gomez on Apr 10, 2008 12:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Absolutely.

Its such a long way down/Maybe I should try a floor below
A softer landing might just ease the pain
Being a coward is such a drag

by acblue on Apr 10, 2008 12:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You're technically right

The NBA is gone from Seattle - but only because a new arena will be eventually built somewhere else. Which it will be, but it'll be Renton/Kent/Tukwila's problem at that point.

On another note, the team is crapulent, attendance is plummeting, and there's competition from the new neighbors - how long until the Orioles demand a new stadium? Camden Yards is 16 years old, which is just a little younger than the Kingdome was when people started agitating for its demise, after all.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Apr 10, 2008 12:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

They'll play at Key Arena.

Something HAS to be done with the Center, and a Key Arena remodel will be part of it. The now defunct plan to privately fund a Key Arena revamp as part of a publicly funded overhaul of the Center was a great idea. Because it didn't work out, the taxpayers will, once again, be cajoled into paying for another stadium. I have nothing to go off of other than my knowledge of how these things have historically happened in Seattle.

Its such a long way down/Maybe I should try a floor below
A softer landing might just ease the pain
Being a coward is such a drag

by acblue on Apr 10, 2008 12:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The US is out of viable markets

and the NBA's having a hard time maintaining numbers with the markets they already have.

If they expand, it will be overseas.

by Gomez on Apr 10, 2008 11:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Definitely posturing

but you're right about the Sonics being gone. That asshole can keep the name for all I care, because the moment those guys leave town, the Sonics are dead.

by discovolante on Apr 10, 2008 12:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

More the reason to be outraged.

I know sports are a business, and I know what's happening and happened to cities all across the country. That there's a flaw in the system that allows this shit to happen doesn't mean we shouldn't be pissed off when it happens. That was a really poorly constructed sentence, but you understand my meaning? City's that shell out hundreds of mil for their sports teams should have some sense of ownership in that team, some sense of security in the team's future place in the city.

by sammy on Apr 10, 2008 12:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I understand your meaning completely

but how is a team's relocation "a flaw in the system"? It's capitalism, it's business, functioning exactly as it's supposed to. What most people don't seem to want to process, and I'm not picking on you specifically here, is that the relationship between a city and its sports team is ALWAYS and ONLY a one-way street. The team itself doesn't care where it plays, the players could care less where they are; the fans, obviously, get attached to their team, but teams don't attach themselves to cities. Teams attach themselves to bank accounts.

The Brooklyn Dodgers, the New York Giants, the Minneapolis Lakers, the St. Louis Football Cardinals - this has been going on since the dawn of American sports, and there's no reason it won't continue until people stop paying to watch live sporting events.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Apr 10, 2008 12:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No, it's not

the one thing that I'd say is that US pro sports are the antithesis of capitalism. You want capitalism in sports, head to Europe.

I think so much of the outrage in this case has to do with the blatant collusion involved. There's NO capitalist case to be made for relocating a team from Seattle to Oklahoma City. None. The only way it can happen is with bizarre interventions from the league. Same with LA and NY having no pro football teams (no, Jersey doesn't count).

Baseball is the least capitalist sport in the world. Forget revenue sharing, the franchise system and the anti-trust exemption make it some bizarre government-sponsored guild. I love it, but it's a weird system.

by marc w on Apr 10, 2008 1:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That comment was basically the total opposite of correct

Oklahoma City has a sizable arena and drew nearly sold out crowds for 2 seasons for a temporary team

Seattle couldn't sell all their seats in an undersized facility when they were winning. And though many fans here want the team to stay, there are also many in the city would rather see them go. And the city has essentially stated through a public vote and several hearings that they do not want to fiscally support the team anymore.

Yes, there is a case for moving the team there. There can be a case made the other way too, but there is a case. Don't get so deluded that you ignore facts.

And baseball, with its lack of a salary cap or serious restrictions on team revenue (outside of token revenue sharing), is far more capitalist than any other major sports league in the country.

by Gomez on Apr 10, 2008 11:13 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Daaamn

Who pissed in your cornflakes this morning?

First of all, you appear to have mistaken my premise - that there is no *capitalist* case to move to OKC. There may be a way for it to pencil out, with the arena you mentioned and the 'bump' in attendance from having a new team in a new area. But the point is, none of this *works* without OKC building an NBA arena. The city built it with a sales tax increase; private enterprise had nothing to do with it.
The OKC media market is the 50th largest media market and only the 44st largest metro area. If it's not working in Memphis, there's gotta be a reason for this to be totally different. TV revenue matters a hell of a lot, and OKC can't compete. There's no way that poor attendance (and the team's attendance recently hasn't been that bad considering their place in the standings) outweighs that. I'd also point out that even now, with ownership trying to move the team, Seattle outdraws Memphis. The point here is that a case can be made to move to OKC, but ONLY when you use PUBLIC financing and support. If OKC's package of taxpayer support outweighs SEA's package of taxpayer support (and it might not; Seattle spent more on Key Arena than OKC did on the Ford center), there's a business case. But that's a separate (and still debatable) issue.

I'd also like to point out that it's kind of hilarious that your argument against my statement that 'capitalism has nothing to do with it' includes this phrase: "the city has essentially stated through a public vote and several hearings that they do not want to fiscally support the team anymore."

On baseball, you're arguing that a league that restricts entry, where 30 owners decide who gets to participate, where TV revenue is shared, with a luxury tax on player salaries, is capitalist? You're telling me that a league where Albert Pujols 2003 salary was less than $1m, or where Felix made $420,000 last year and with an arbitration system for players is based on 'what the market will bear?' Really?

Compare this to Europe, without revenue sharing, with promotion/relegation and without even restrictions on the size of the roster. Does this mean the rich get richer and the poor go bankrupt? Yes. The US system is totally different, and that's the *whole point of my comment*. Saying that baseball's lack of a salary cap (they have the luxury tax; same basic deal) invalidates my point or makes it 'the total opposite of correct' is... not accurate.

by marc w on Apr 11, 2008 12:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's a flaw because

when fans pay for a team's facilities and cities devote huge amounts of resources into providing a suitable playing environment for a team, I believe the fans and cities should have a stake in what happens to that team's future.

Also, what marc said. This isn't capitalism. This isn't Bennett and Co caving to market demands. This is rich men playing with their money and buying their hometown a basketball team.

by sammy on Apr 10, 2008 1:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The reason I called it capitalism

is because the owners are the only ones that profit. The public puts up money in the form of favorable land deals, unrealistically crazy stadium deals, and tickets; if that supply dries up, the owners will go with whoever promises them more of the same.

It's not Bennett and Co caving to market demands, but it's Bennett and Co soliciting new markets for an existing product. Which they are well within their rights to do. Note that I do not agree they SHOULD do it, but I also can't really work up a lot of outrage when they do, because it's their toy - if they want to take their toy elsewhere, they can.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Apr 10, 2008 1:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes, but

they're only able to do this in the bizarre, carefully-controlled, franchise system of the NBA (or other pro sports here). It's that system that enables them to profit from what is, at heart, a *terrible business decision* in any sort of market system.

You're right pdb, they bought it, they can do what they want. But the whole thing works only because capitalism is excised from the entire system.

by marc w on Apr 10, 2008 1:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

True enough.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Apr 10, 2008 1:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I get your point.

By the rules of the game, billionaires have every right to purchase a franchise in a major market and move it wherever they want, be it OKC, Cle Elum, WA, or Homer, Alaska, so long as the NBA Board of Governors approves the move. But that just feeds right back into my initial point: thems some fucked up rules. Legally and systemically, fans who have successfully supported a franchise for decades by buying gear, tickets, and arenas have no right to demand to be paid back in kind through loyalty to the consumers that made the business what it is. The owners have every right to fuck these fans over on a whim. This indicates, to me, a flaw in the system.

by sammy on Apr 10, 2008 1:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sports franchises don't exist for your enjoyment.

They exist to create money for someone who is not you. The sooner you come to grips with this, the better off you'll be.

by BrianL on Apr 10, 2008 1:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

read over this whole thread again, then come back to me.

How is OKC the better business decision again?

by sammy on Apr 10, 2008 1:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

In the short term, Bennett is hemmoraging money by being in Seattle.

He thinks he can make money in OKC. Therefore, the team moves to OKC to make him money.

He's an idiot for thinking this way, but that's the line of reasoning.

by BrianL on Apr 10, 2008 2:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He's not an idiot, really

as was stated above, he's not playing on a level business playing field, so he's absolutely making the right decision for now. "Right decision", remember, has nothing to do with sports. In 8 years, when OKC proves to be no longer profitable, this whole thing will happen again, and a whole-nother fan base can be aggrieved with no recourse. Isn't sports great?

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Apr 10, 2008 2:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You know,

I don't have any problem (or at least a much smaller problem) with an owner moving franchises if it is determined that the current market is not profitable. I think it's the blatant homerism and carpetbagging of this specific move that enrages me the most.

by sammy on Apr 10, 2008 2:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

But this is a carbon copy

of every sports team move ever, anywhere, in any sport. Don't fool yourself into thinking Seattle's harder done by than other cities in this regard - ask Baltimore about the Colts, for instance.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Apr 10, 2008 2:17 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I was actually thinking of

New Orleans impending move after next season (although, I don't know, since the AS break that's looking less and less likely what with NO having the best record in the west and the fans finally paying attention).

Old Baltimore fans have every right to want to rip their eyes out every time they see a Colts jersey.

by sammy on Apr 10, 2008 2:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

We have no idea what the puts and takes are

Pro sports accounting is like regular accounting, only without rules.
Owners crying poor *always* gets my bullshit detector redlining.

He says he's hemorrhaging money here, but we don't know that. Sort of odd given that payroll's been slashed and the TV deal was signed a long time ago, but even so, the only thing that makes this pencil out is publically-financed luxury boxes? Really?

I would tend to think that a cable deal in Seattle vs. OKC would more than make up for that difference, but who knows. But I do know that I shouldn't trust one word out of Bennett's mouth.

Besides, if it were really about money, he'd have gone into a market that really might be hemorrhaging cash, like New Orleans or Charlotte or Memphis. That they didn't proves the dollars-and-cents argument is a red herring; they bought the team because it was for sale at that time and they thought they could buy out the lease cheaply. The profitability/unprofitability of the franchise had nothing to do with it.

by marc w on Apr 10, 2008 2:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sorry I'll be more clear.

He's an idiot for thinking that OKC is a more profitable market than Seattle long-term.

by BrianL on Apr 10, 2008 2:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Did you read the original article I linked to?

Specifically this email from Aubrey McClendon to Bennett immediately following the sale:

"the OKLAHOMA CITY SONIC BOOM (or maybe SONIC BOOMERS!) baby!!!!!!!!!!"

You're saying that the move is motivated primarily by business interests and not, say, carpetbagging an NBA team for the hometown so they can finally "watch ball here [in Oklahoma City] next year"?

This is all besides the point anyhow. I was never arguing that sports franchises exist for my enjoyment. I was arguing that massive civic investments into a sports franchise should purchase some commitment from the franchise to the city, so long as the city remains a profitable market.

by sammy on Apr 10, 2008 2:12 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

But that gets into the thorny issue

of what constitutes "profit", which no professional sports team will EVER talk about. And in the case of most professional sports teams, carpetbagging = business interests.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Apr 10, 2008 2:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

pdb - didn't know which comment of yours to reply to

But this move has nothing to do with economic interests.

"We didn't buy the team to keep it in Seattle, we hoped to come here. We know it's a little more difficult financially here in Oklahoma City, but we think it's great for the community and if we could break even we'd be thrilled." That was Aubrey McLendon, co-owner, last August.

by Nick S on Apr 10, 2008 2:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

But it does have to do with economic interests.

Specifically, Bennett's. His is the only economic interest being considered (or that matters) here. He will make a ton of money in OKC, regardless of what is said - and consider the source of that quote, by the way. The co-owner has every incentive to play down the financial benefits of a move, because it makes them both sound like they're just the tiniest bit apprehensive about moving, which I can almost guarantee you they're not.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Apr 10, 2008 2:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think you're deluding yourself

if you think this deal had more to do with making money than with bringing home a team for the townies.

by sammy on Apr 10, 2008 2:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't blame Bennett for wating to take the team to his hometown.

I blame him for lying about it, and I blamce Howard Shultz for selling it to him. Fuck you Starbucks!

I'm pretty sure I'm not retarded.

by Thingray on Apr 10, 2008 2:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Bennett's no more a philanthropist than I am.

He says he wanted to bring a team to his hometown, which makes good press, but do you honestly think that he'd do it if there wasn't money to be made there?

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Apr 10, 2008 2:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You know,

I actually do believe McClendon that they would be perfectly happy to break even.

by sammy on Apr 10, 2008 2:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

If he "breaks even"

he's still making a shitload of money whenever he sells the team. Franchise values very seldom go down.

I'm pretty sure I'm not retarded.

by Thingray on Apr 10, 2008 3:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

On what basis?

I don't mean that as an accusation, I'm genuinely curious.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Apr 10, 2008 3:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Well Thingray kinda beat me to it

the money made from ownership is almost always from the sale of the team, at least in the NBA. I think Bennett specifically is pretty much good as far as money's concerned... what he stands to gain in OKC is hero status more than anything.

by Nick S on Apr 10, 2008 3:05 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Does the NBA work like MLB's new parks

in that all dollars spent at the stadium go to the team and not the city/county?

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Apr 10, 2008 3:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Uhhhh yes I think so

but I'm really fuzzy on all that noise. By and large, yes. I believe the Sonics lease with the Key didn't make much money for the city/county at all. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

by Nick S on Apr 10, 2008 3:12 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Can't speak for Nick,

But in my experience with very very successful businessmen (I've known more than a few; my dad's one), they are extremely prideful creatures. Proud of their wealth, their heritage, their families, and their hometowns. It does make a whole lot of sense to me that a bunch of OKC townies who love sports and love their town saw how the Hornets revitalized the city during the Katrina-interim, and said "Hey, let's get together and make this happen for the city. It'll be fun! And it's not like we're gonna lose any money in the long run. Let's see, what teams are for sale..."

by sammy on Apr 10, 2008 3:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah I'd agree

I mean, look at this Ballmer thing. You think he's looking to make a profit by dropping 75 mil for a stadium AND buying the team back? Hell no, it's all about giving back to the city.

by Nick S on Apr 10, 2008 3:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You're stupid

They wouldn't move an NBA team to Homer, Alaska. Geez.

by AZSEAfan on Apr 10, 2008 1:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I was swindled when I paid money for a light rail

In 1996 that is still not running. And then we paid again 3 years later. And then we paid again 4 years later. And we are paying yet again now. I was swindled when I paid for a Monorail that will never be built. I was swindled when we paid millions of dollars to "straighten" the S curves.

When I go to Qwest and Safeco I am always amazed this lame, do nothing community, actually produced two top notch buildings. I do not feel swindled.

However, the NBA is boring and Clay Bennett is an idiot for paying $350 million for that team.

The user formerly known as Sec 108.

by Sec 108 on Apr 10, 2008 1:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

But they were built after the taxpayers said no.

On the list of things I'm pissed at local governments for, Safeco and Qwest rank fairly low, but I think the point stands.

Its such a long way down/Maybe I should try a floor below
A softer landing might just ease the pain
Being a coward is such a drag

by acblue on Apr 10, 2008 1:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Qwest was not voted down. It passed a general election.

Safeco was, so the state found a different funding mechanism. I understand that it may make people unhappy that Safeco was built anyway, but at least the DID something. This state consistently takes my money for things I vote for and then never completes them.

The user formerly known as Sec 108.

by Sec 108 on Apr 11, 2008 9:59 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Go get Nick Horn and Greg Nickels

They actively did what they could to covertly kill the monorail dead... though Cogswell and Falkenberry didn't help matters by insisting on a planned line through West Seattle and Ballard that serviced relatively few people while costing a shit-ton to build, all because they had deluded visions of someday tearing down the viaduct.

I think the moral of the story is that Seattle's civic leaders are all a bunch of imbeciles.

by Gomez on Apr 10, 2008 11:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

What's amazing is that the winner of all this chicanery

are guys like George Steinbrenner and Mark Cuban - guys who are certifiable idiots, but feel the loyalty to the fan base and care enough about winning to invest huge sums of money into the team.

That and they're both bright enough to realize that you have to spend money to make money, with winning being a nice little side bonus.

by seattlebruin on Apr 10, 2008 1:14 PM PDT   0 recs

don't forget Paul Allen.

Thank the lord for Paul Allen.

by sammy on Apr 10, 2008 1:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Paul Allen can suck it.

I have to drive through the Mercer Mess every day. His SLUT made my driver ten times worse.

by BrianL on Apr 10, 2008 1:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Damn

what did his SLUT do to your driver? You know, next gen antibiotics can take care of a lot of problems...

cool that you have a driver, though.

by marc w on Apr 10, 2008 1:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Fuck.

Drive. I meant to say drive.

Okay I fail at typing today. I'll try again in the morning.

by BrianL on Apr 10, 2008 1:39 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It also eats 25% of Metro's operating budget.

Its such a long way down/Maybe I should try a floor below
A softer landing might just ease the pain
Being a coward is such a drag

by acblue on Apr 10, 2008 1:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No way that's true.

I'm pretty sure I'm not retarded.

by Thingray on Apr 10, 2008 2:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Okay, I misinterpreted the figure. Badly. My mistake.

It's actually 20% of annual funding from the Transit Now initiative.

Link

...the South Lake Union Trolley, which costs about $1.7 million a year to operate. That may not sound like much, but it accounts for about 20 percent of new Metro service dollars.

That's still a lot of money. But I feel dumb now for quoting a figure that was that far off.

Its such a long way down/Maybe I should try a floor below
A softer landing might just ease the pain
Being a coward is such a drag

by acblue on Apr 10, 2008 3:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And, in retrospect...

I can't believe that such an obviously huge number like that didn't cause me to re-read the article in the first place.

Its such a long way down/Maybe I should try a floor below
A softer landing might just ease the pain
Being a coward is such a drag

by acblue on Apr 10, 2008 3:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's actually worse that way

because 20% of new dollars means less new bus routes/frequent service buses.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Apr 10, 2008 3:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, Metro actually had to cut service after the initiative was approved.

And raise fares as well. Awesome.

Its such a long way down/Maybe I should try a floor below
A softer landing might just ease the pain
Being a coward is such a drag

by acblue on Apr 10, 2008 3:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Still sucks. That's a lot of money to be spent on something that serves such a small area.

I suppose I'd feel different if I lived or worked in SLU.

I'm pretty sure I'm not retarded.

by Thingray on Apr 10, 2008 3:51 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, if you were opposed to walking a mile and a half.

Or catching a bus.

Seriously, I'm a HUGE fan of rail, light or otherwise, but that thing is a joke.

Its such a long way down/Maybe I should try a floor below
A softer landing might just ease the pain
Being a coward is such a drag

by acblue on Apr 10, 2008 3:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Like oh, I dunno', a streetcar DOWNTOWN?

Or on Capitol Hill? Or places people who might be inclined to use a streetcar over the bus actually go?

Its such a long way down/Maybe I should try a floor below
A softer landing might just ease the pain
Being a coward is such a drag