Bench and Bullpen
by Graham on Mar 29, 2008 12:49 PM PDT
in Bad News
80 comments
Roster looks to have been finalised.
The team is going with a 6 man bullpen and a 5 man bench, which is neat. Let's find out who made it.
Pen: Putz, EOF, Green, Lowe, RRS, Baek.
Not in the pen: Morrow, Dickey, Rhodes, Reitsma, Anderson Garcia.
R.A. Dickey loses out to Baek's option status, but remains in the organisation as the Mariners traded C Jair Fernandez (i.e. a warm body) to the Twins for the rights to his contract. He'll start the year in Tacoma.
I had completely forgotten that we'd acquired Anderson Garcia. So had the Mariners.
Morrow, as many of you know, will begin the year in AA West Tennessee. As far as I can make out he'll be relieving there as he'll be on a throwing program that will see him pitch in back-to-back games. Yes, that is indeed hilarious. Hahahahahafuck.
Lowe's the one filling in for him as our right-handed setup guy, and as long as he's fully healthy (and he's looked it) he should be awesome.
On to the bench...
Bench: Bloomquist, Cairo, Burke, Morse, Jimerson(?!)
Not on the Bench: Norton, anyone useful.
Riiiiiiight. So the big news of today is that Mike Morse will be platooning with Wilkerson in right field. Some of you appear to be happy about this. Three things, however, make this arrangement suboptimal.
1) Brad Wilkerson doesn't need platooning. Seriously. Go look at his splits. Raul Ibanez needs platooning, but we're not going to platoon our #3 hitter because that's how we roll. Awesome.
2) Our outfield defense was a problem last year. Removing Guillen for Wilkerson was a small, but significant, defensive upgrade. One which is completely negated by running Mike Morse out there every time this team faces a left handed starting pitcher. This team is so incompetent at evaluating defense that it beggars belief.
3) Mike Morse is not a good hitter. His career OPS in the minor leagues is .720 over the course of 8 years. The Mariners are gambling that 2007 represents Morse's true talent level. Um.
Bloomquist and Burke were always locks, Cairo gets in because he does a Bloomquist impression, only older and worse. No surprise there.
Jimerson makes the bench over Norton, because the Mariners value... uh. Not having a left handed power bat on the bench I DON'T KNOW.
NB: It's been pointed out in the comments, and I totally agree, that Jimerson (who is out of options) makes at least some sense, whereas Cairo makes none. But seriously, was anyone ever expecting them to ditch Miguel Cairo?
Bullpen Summary: Not too bad. I'd have liked to see Dickey there, but that's mainly because I love watching knuckleballers, and at least we kept him in the organisation. Injury worries aside, this is a pretty strong unit.
Bench Summary: What in the name of all that's holy is wrong with John McLaren's brain?
Matthew's Note: There were three players on the Mariners roster entering this Spring who were out of options: Mike Morse, Cha Seung Baek and Charlton Jimerson. The Mariners don't care about defense, but they clearly care about this.
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Idiocy....
I feel bad for any of our starters if the other team is rolling out a lefty. The outfield defense is going to be comically bad.
by PLU Tim on Mar 29, 2008 12:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I still think Baek gets traded early
possibly with Reed or Morse and then Dickey or Morrow will get called back up.
by Matthew on Mar 29, 2008 12:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Morse thing is incredibly stupid
but I'm actually more pissed at the Jimerson/Willie/Cairo trifecta. What does Cairo add here? Dump Cairo, keep Norton.
by Matthew on Mar 29, 2008 12:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I wasted most of my rage on Morse
Before I knew Norton wasn't making the team.
by Graham on Mar 29, 2008 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can see the rationale for keeping Jimerson
They probably want him to be this year's Ellison.
The problem I have is keeping Cairo at the expense of Norton. All the bench players have their specific "skill," but Bloomquist and Cairo are completely redundant and no one on the bench offers anything similar to Norton.
by discovolante on Mar 29, 2008 12:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
But is Jimerson willing to throw down with Joe Blanton?
by ubelmann on Mar 29, 2008 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe when they're playing Oakland
Jimerson can "accidentally" let go of the bat on one of his strikeouts and watch sail at Blanton's fat head.
by discovolante on Mar 29, 2008 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was going to rage at Jimerson making it,
but he actually makes some sense. They need an actual OF defensive replacement on the bench. You're right on Cairo. He adds zilch.
by Matthew on Mar 29, 2008 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
worst bench ever
Wilerson being platooned with Morse? The M's finally realize what a platoon is and they platoon the wrong guy!
I don't mind Jimerson making the team, but Cairo making the team is disgusting.
I hope they give Ichiro a day off against lefties so we can see a Ibanez-Willie-Morse outfield.
The bullpen looks good.
by MFAN on Mar 29, 2008 1:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Jimerson was a surprise
I figured he was an good as gone to AAA. Maybe he'd have to pass through waivers to get there, and since he does have speed and power, the M's figured he wasn't going to slip through. His speed off the bench has value, and you could send worse reserve bats to the plate than a power/speed guy who swings at so much that Vlad Guerrero is like, "Dude, take a pitch."
Guys like Norton are a dime a dozen, really. Morse isn't much with the glove at any position, but he gives McLaren more options with the bench than Norton did, and ultimately, modularity is what you want from a bench. Plus, park adjust Norton's stats and you'll find he's not much of a power bat at all. The marginal utility of a marginally better bat isn't greater than the utility of a guy being able to play multiple positions in a pinch over a 1B/RF loafer.
Cairo's presence so McLaren can use WFB in the 7th makes me ill but McLaren's utility scrapper fetish ensured Cairo was going to be there no matter what. Nothing we can do about that.
by Gomez on Mar 29, 2008 1:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Good year to go with 6-man bullpen
I think almost all the starters (Washburn the least, I'd imagine) can go deep into ballgames and lighten the load on the pen. However, the bench...fuck me.
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on Mar 29, 2008 1:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's to hoping April showers will bring May flowers...
...and cairo DFA'ed for dickey/norton
by dirka dirka on Mar 29, 2008 1:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Mike Morse, ML career: .374 BABIP
batting line if you regress to .300: .244/.313/.340
by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 29, 2008 1:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey I guys I heard
that Raul Ibanez died for our sins - at least very least, he can turn fly outs into hits.
by Jordan of Boise on Mar 29, 2008 1:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If all we're bitching about is our bench
I'd say we're in decent shape.
It's McLaren. None of these guys are gonna see time anyway.
by Garces on Mar 29, 2008 1:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
unless they're serious about the platoon.
by Matthew on Mar 29, 2008 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My hope would be that Morse is on a short leash
not being a veteran and all.
by discovolante on Mar 29, 2008 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure they are
But Mac seems more open to change than he was last year.
I haven't seen Morse play a lot of OF, so I'll wait and see.
by Garces on Mar 29, 2008 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
From the few games I saw Morse in the OF
I can tell you that it's going to be ugly.
by BrianL on Mar 29, 2008 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Morse truly looks horrible
McLaren will scrap it ASAP. Morse is not a veteran that has seen sufficient wars. Never fear.
by Gomez on Mar 29, 2008 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh
Except Morse is platooningwith Wilkerson.
And there's lot of other stuff to complain about. This is just new.
by Graham on Mar 29, 2008 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you were apparently already aware of this
"None of these guys are gonna see time anyway." is a pretty ridiculous comment to make, no?
by Graham on Mar 29, 2008 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was obviously excluding Morse
But I'll be more specific for you next time.
by Garces on Mar 29, 2008 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pardon me for assuming 'none'
did not in fact mean 'everyone except Morse'.
by Graham on Mar 29, 2008 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Greg Norton doesn't fit in with "the weapons"
we have on the current bench...according to Bavasi!
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on Mar 29, 2008 1:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Becouse we all know Cairo
is a nuke off the bench. Too bad he's one that is being pointed in the wrong direction.
by IceStormV1 on Mar 29, 2008 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cairo costs the Mariners an extra bullpen spot
Bavasi continues to make yet another bad choice in keeping "I can't believe it's not Bloomquist".
by Fin on Mar 29, 2008 1:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
From Bavasi
Sounds like RRS is a bullpen arm for life.
And we all see Morrow's path as the same.
We traded Butler and Tillman...I see a trend.
We are going to have relievers only in the next few years and everyone will pitch 2 innings a game.
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on Mar 29, 2008 1:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hearing Bavasi Just Then
It sounds like they are taking Brandon Morrow's high potential and flushing it right down the toilet.
Another failure.
by marinator on Mar 29, 2008 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My take on the bench is, basically: Norton blows, so we didn't have a lefty power bat anyway. Come the middle of the season, I would expect Clement to get called up and Jose Vidro to take over the lefty PH role (to keep his option from vesting).
Jimerson I was rooting for because he can actually play center and I wouldn't put it past him to outhit Norton whether he's a lefty or not... Those of you who are big on OF defense should love this move. He'll likely be taking over for corner outfielder X in the later innings of a lot of games, giving us a nice range boost when the game may be on the line.
Cairo. Feh. Release him. The Morse thing is odd. But, as long as he doesn't block Balentien, I don't care. He'll play one or two games a week.
by chaney on Mar 29, 2008 1:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yea, but then why pass on Reed Johnson
if this team wanted a RH OF that could play defense? Jimerson can play defense, sure, but he was a 28 year old in AA last year. I don't think we really had to worry about Jimerson being picked up on waivers. Tons of players like that in the minors.
I think what they wanted is speed off the bench and good OF defense. But then it doesn't make sense for them to platoon Wilkerson with Morse when Ibanez is much worse on defense. Maybe Jimerson can rake vs. lefties. I dunno. If he can, then great.
Previously NoNameX -- Go M's!
by JLC on Mar 29, 2008 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are not a ton of speed/power OFers on the wire
We already have Jimerson but would have to pay to acquire Reed Johnson and would have to bump somebody off the 40 man. Meanwhile, we already have Charlton Jimerson. Is Reed Johnson that much better that he justifies that effort?
Plus, Jimerson's purpose will be to spell OF regulars in the 9th inning, pinch run and make a few starts here and there. To quibble is to quibble over a handful of innings and appearances. Jimerson would have to be useless and embarassingly bad to justify such a move, and while he has his issues, he is far from that bad.
by Gomez on Mar 29, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it really such a long, onerous process
to acquire Reed Johnson? Just kick Jimerson off the 40-man and pay Reed Johnson some pocket change. If we can afford to give 48 million to Carlos freakin' Silva, we can afford a 1 year 1.5 mil deal to Johnson.
The point of picking up a Johnson or Murton type is that it would give us a legit 4th outfielder than won't kill us on offense or defense on a platoon. If Jimerson's purpose is to only pinch run and be a late-inning defensive replacement, why not just let Willie Ballgame do it? Jimerson is completely unnecessary with Willie and Cairo on the bench, but Johnson would at least add a threat.
Previously NoNameX -- Go M's!
by JLC on Mar 29, 2008 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is this necessary?
Exactly how much better does Reed Johnson make this team?
And how do we know Reed Johnson wants to come here in the first place?
Maybe the team passed on Reed Johnson because he honestly doesn't add that much over anyone in house.
by Gomez on Mar 29, 2008 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to Wilkerson's splits
he hits lefties better than righties...
Morse has no legit reason to be platooning with Wilkerson
Jimerson's should only be on the team to be Morse's defensive replacement..
by greg08 on Mar 29, 2008 2:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I still don't know why we traded Blowers for cairo
Maybe we can package Cairo with Risley and get some arms like those studs Menhart and Hurtado.
The user formerly known as Sec 108.
by Sec 108 on Mar 29, 2008 3:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
To all the people who think that
Morse getting playing time is a good thing, or want to take a "wait and see" approach...
You can suck my balls
This is fucking stupid, and makes me way less excited for opening day than I was yesterday.
by thenatural on Mar 29, 2008 3:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Obviously I'm not the only person taking issue with this...
but thanks
by thenatural on Mar 29, 2008 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Morse playing every few days is hardly this team's biggest problem
It's not a good logisitcal move until you realize how injury prone Wilkerson has been. You probably don't want him playing everyday in RF given that history, because he doesn't help the M's at all on the DL. In terms of giving Wilkerson a day off every few days, it actually makes some sense, even if platooning him so he sits vs LHPs doesn't.
by Gomez on Mar 29, 2008 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jimerson is more valuable as a 4th outfielder than Morse
by Graham on Mar 29, 2008 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point exactly...
I agree that Wilkerson is injury-prone, and a platoon might not be a complete trainwreck of a situation... I am talking about using Mike Morse. Mainly because its fodder for all of the people who have argued over the past week about how he is going to be a star because he's had a monster ST. I can't stand that those people feel validated when they are clearly wrong.
by thenatural on Mar 29, 2008 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Morse isn't really a 4th OF so much as a corner relief guy
Both roles have their differences.
by Gomez on Mar 29, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but 'corner relief guy'
Shouldn't really be the one spelling your outfielders.
by Graham on Mar 29, 2008 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW because it may not be clear
Corner relief guy means 1B/3B/LF/RF.
by Gomez on Mar 29, 2008 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would bench moves and a platoon
Make you "hate" something?
I think it's vacation time.
by Garces on Mar 29, 2008 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trading for HoRam
Now there's reasonable motive.
by Garces on Mar 29, 2008 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously I'm exaggerating
But they screw up such simple things. It's not this. It's so many small (and sometimes big) stupid things. I think this team can compete this year but cmon get the little things right.
by phil333 on Mar 29, 2008 7:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A reminder:
Ronny Paulino, ST 2007: .500 BA, .848 SLG
Ronny Paulino, RS 2007: .263, .389
Casey Kotchman, ST 2006: .407, .678
Casey Kotchman, RS 2006: .152, .215
Pablo Ozuna, ST 2005: .527, .655
Pablo Ozuna, RS 2005: .276, .330
Gary Bennett, ST 2004: .538, .692
Gary Bennett, RS 2004: .224, .329
Garrett Atkins, ST 2003: .525, .775
Garrett Atkins, RS 2003: .159, .188
Greg Norton, ST 2002: .512, .930
Greg Norton, RS 2002: .220, .405
Jorge Toca, ST 2001: .424, .593
Jorge Toca, RS 2001: .176, .176
John Roskos, ST 2000: .458, .875
John Roskos, RS 2000: .037, .133
by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 29, 2008 4:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
So what you're saying is
that spring training is a definitive barometer of how a player will perform in the regular season. Thank goodness we have spring training.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on Mar 29, 2008 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, of all things this team has done,
this thing bothers me the absolute least. I like Morse, even if he's worthless, and the rest seem interchangeable enough that I don't really care. If they start games with both Ballgame and Cairo, then I'll be upset.
...and now I'm here
by CapSea on Mar 29, 2008 4:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I figure these two things are on the horizon
Lopez is on a short leash... if he blows, WFB or Cairo takes over as everyday 2nd baseman.
Richie is on a short leash... if he blows Ibanez/Wilkerson/Morse swap in and maybe we get a defensive upgrade at a corner OF spot.
Morrow doesn't have a 2nd pitch. He's not likely to get time as a starter unless he develops more weapons. In the meantime, he can be an effective reliever... and possibly groomed as JJ's successor with just his nasty fastball.
by johnbai on Mar 29, 2008 4:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I guess that's 3 things
thank god for this preview button... it really cuts down on mistakes. NOT.
/Borat
by johnbai on Mar 29, 2008 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Morrow could be okay in theory with just a fastball
but he'd still have to get quite a bit better with it.
by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 29, 2008 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or to be more elaborate
JJ's fastball was straight... even if it touched 100mph. Eventually people would tee off on it. I think his improved ability to locate the fastball helped as much as his split.
Rivera's, like Morrow's has nasty movement... this makes it possible to thrive with just a single great pitch.
by johnbai on Mar 29, 2008 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except he has little control over his fastball
So any possibility of him being an effective 1 pitch pitcher in relief is out the window until he spends some time in the minors and y'know, works on that. In the meantime he's just gonna be walking people like crazy when he's not getting taken yard.
Even if they're not going to stretch him into a starter, he really needs to be in the minors this year, otherwise they're just squandering his talents. So here's hoping Lowe starts off strong and they forget about him down there...
by OlSalty on Mar 30, 2008 3:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We never actually had a chance to get
Reed Johnson did we? He went through waivers and the Cubs had a worse record so they got first choice.
by Edgar for Pres on Mar 29, 2008 4:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No, the M's could've signed him
He was released, and the Cubs signed him as a free agent.
by abelard on Mar 29, 2008 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
whew....
just got back and was able to see the M's moves..... thank god they did what they did otherwise this season might actually have some positives to it.... thank god Bavasi even screwed the bench up.
Midnight Baseball - No Lights - Only in Alaska!
by MfaninAlaska on Mar 29, 2008 5:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd blame this on McLaren
I think the manager usually gets more of the choice when it comes to bench filler
by I'm NOT Corco on Mar 29, 2008 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just one thing...
I don't care who the fuck is pitching for the opponent, Morse better not be in RF when Washburn pitches unless Wilkerson is in LF.
by discovolante on Mar 29, 2008 5:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Meh
The Morse/Wilkerson platoon doesn't bother me. This is only because Morse was hot in SP and probably won't last long once he cools off (if it even translates into the regular season). And it's Wilkerson probably because he's new, while Raul is of course "Mr. Mariner".
by ThundaPC on Mar 29, 2008 5:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Fans of Mike Morse are ...
in for a rude awakening once his lack of power and shitty defense starting hurting the M's.
by AK1984 on Mar 29, 2008 6:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Fans of Mike Morse know this.
And don't care.
...and now I'm here
by CapSea on Mar 29, 2008 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He worked out with Raul all winter
He is soon to become a fan favorite.
The user formerly known as Sec 108.
by Sec 108 on Mar 29, 2008 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What a douchebag comment
Noting Mike Morse's positive qualities doesn't mean we're fans of his. Greg Norton is not a better bench player than Mike Morse.
by Gomez on Mar 29, 2008 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm confused by this comment.
Seeing as I am a fan of Mike Morse, and I don't care.
...and now I'm here
by CapSea on Mar 29, 2008 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, that makes more sense. Cool.
It seemed like an accusation of bias.
by Gomez on Mar 29, 2008 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
And while I am, in fact, a douchebag, you should probably save that type of invective for someone that either...
a) isn't responding to AK1984 or
b) doesn't write excessively long condescending sermons to respond to insults.
I don't care how much Morse sucks, I enjoy watching him play. And since I'm probably more pessimistic about this season that most people seem to be, knowing I will enjoy something is a plus for me.
...and now I'm here
by CapSea on Mar 29, 2008 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that never stopped the fans of Willie Bloomquist.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on Mar 29, 2008 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jimerson? Seriously?
and here I was thinking that Cairo allowed us to free up Bloomquist to be our fourth OF...
The only reason the M's would keep Jimerson around is that they're afraid of losing him. Afraid of losing a hitter who, over the course of last season, struck out in over a third of his at-bats and walking in only 8% of his plate appearances. If he started this year in the minors, he would be a prime candidate to regress sharply. Plus, he's in his physical prime, so it's not like he's getting any better or something you'll plan on using a few years down the road.
I don't get it. Rather have Norton. Rather have someone other than a fifth or sixth outfielder.
by JY on Mar 29, 2008 8:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Graham has his own section.
There's something pretty cool about that. I don't know why.
...and now I'm here
by CapSea on Mar 29, 2008 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
People getting a little touchy in this thread
the M's bench must be on of those hot button issues like abortion or the war in Iraq.
Anyways...our bench has been bad since '01. And it hasn't stopped us from getting into the playoffs...er...nevermind.
Interesting that they chose to platoon Morse instead of Balentien. It seems like the final three moves were definately made to keep those guys around, rather then what was best for the major league team.
Someone say something witty.
by Omerta on Mar 30, 2008 10:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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