A question from the ignorant

by mariners124m on Feb 24, 2008 12:04 PM PST Comment 17 comments

So pretty much everyone here knows of ESPN/th general media's incompetence when it comes to the sport of baseball. (Jeter being a good defender, etc) The fact that SABR figures seem to prove almost everything you hear broadcasted wrong sometimes.

As a huge baseball fan, and having played my whole life, including now at the college level, I understand the game enough to recognize this. However, I know relatively nothing about other sports.

My question would be, are they that bad with other sports too? When I hear guys get praised in the NFL/NBA etc, does the same level of ignorance apply?

Also, within baseball there is a huge Yankee/Red Sox bias. Living on the east coast, can't watch ESPN without finding out the color of Hank Steinbrenner's shit but I never hear anything about Seattle.

I guess I'm like the kid that finds out Santa isn't real, and now I want to know if that's true for the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy

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Bad? Yes.

As bad? Not even close. Baseball's problem is that it is so steeped in history and tradition; it makes the sport resistant to change and new ideas. Also the "old-boy" networking of baseball ensures a lot of self-replication amongst management jobs.

The typical NFL or NBA head coach was a meh college player who became an assistant at his school after graduation, became a NCAA head coach, then a pro assistant, then finally a head coach. They aren't indebted to the pro game at all and it's a lot easier to make radical change.

The typical MLB manager was a decade long pro player, likely a catcher who after retirement became a pro coach then eventually a pro manager. He's been inside the pro game for 20+ years before he becomes a manager. He's vastly motivated to avoid change.

by Matthew on Feb 24, 2008 12:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Not really true

NBA coaches that played in the pros:
Mike Woodson, Doc Rivers, Sam Vincent, George Karl, Avery Johnson, Don Nelson, Rick Adelman, Mike Dunleavy, Phil Jackson, Marc Iavaroni, Pat Riley, Larry Kristkowiak, Randy Wittman, Byron Scott, Isiah Thomas, Maurice Cheeks, Mike D'Antoni, Nate McMillan, Reggie Theus, Sam Mitchell, Jerry Sloan, Eddie Jordan. A lot of those guys were pretty good players in the NBA who played for several years.

I think there are lot more guys like you describe that are head coaches in the NFL though.

by BaltimoreMarinersFan on Feb 24, 2008 5:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Worth mentioning....

Jim Boylan - led Marquette to 1977 NCAA Championship, drafted 4th round NBA in 1979.

Flip Saunders - Started 101 of 103 games at U Minnesota, played next to Kevin McHale there.

Jim O'Brien - 3 year starter at St. Josephs, inducted into their Hall of Fame and the Big 5 HOF.

So what would Brian Boitano do if he were here today? I'm sure he'd kick an ass or two, that's what Brian Boitano'd do!

by MarinerintheDistrict on Feb 24, 2008 6:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Current NFL coaches who played in the NFL:

Tony Dungy
Jim Zorn
Mike Holmgren (drafted, but I don't think he played)
Dick Jauron
Gary Kubiak
Jack Del Rio
Herm Edwards
Jeff Fisher
Ken Whisenhunt
Sean Payton (replacement player during strike)
Scott Linehan (rookie free agent, injury ended career before he ever played)

Not bad, out of 32 teams 11 coaches played on or were part of NFL teams as a player.

All this optimism is bringing me down...

by Thingray on Feb 25, 2008 3:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

I think there is a tendency on the mainstream media's part to overrate effort and reputation. But in other sports, effort can actually yield more reward than in a game like baseball where you can try your ass off but, if you lack the necessary hand-eye coordination and ability/talent, it won't help much. Compare this to football, where brute force can make an impact, and basketball, where hustle and athleticism can make an impact.

I'm Gomez and I write about many things.

by Gomez on Feb 24, 2008 8:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

There's probably more to be ignorant about

in baseball than other sports, especially since its statistics are so much more evolving, in depth, and meaningful.

by Fett42 on Feb 24, 2008 12:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

That's what it seemed to me

But I never knew if there were inside statistics in football and basketball that are avoided, because as far as I'm concerned, I'll believe anyone on ESPN praising the play of a new NFL rookie

by mariners124m on Feb 24, 2008 12:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Speaking basketball-wise

There are so many more baseball statistics than basketball statistics. Every single play in baseball is recorded, unlike basketball. Part of the reason is that basketball is a much faster sport, and therefore impossible to record everything. Another major difference is statisical variance. By that I mean in baseball a pitcher can make the perfect pitch, and yet he still might give up a homer. In basketball, you make a perfect jumpshot and it's going in.

While baseball has evolved into more statistics-based evaluation, at least with some teams (the successful ones haha). In basketball, while statistics are certainly relevant, scouting a player is more about watching him play then reading into his statistics.

So what would Brian Boitano do if he were here today? I'm sure he'd kick an ass or two, that's what Brian Boitano'd do!

by MarinerintheDistrict on Feb 24, 2008 1:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes.

I would say the NBA is the least well understood. The fact that people continue to think that Zach Randolph is a good player astounds me.

All in all, I would say baseball is the best understood by average fans. Traditional stats like slugging and OBP, which anyone can understand and are commonly distributed, are actually meaningful. In the NFL, there is almost no stat that is actually meaningful. Therefore, the amount of understanding by casual fans is 0 to embarrassing. Compounding all this, the NFL is thick with former players who took too many shots to the head. I don't think any sport can compete with football when it comes to absurdly awful announcing. Joe Morgan may not know what he's talking about, but...Emmitt Smith?!? Unfortunately, these former player "analyst" construct the predominance of public opinion. And don't even get me started about the Madden (video game) effect...Inevitably I guess it comes down to how much you know about a sport, the more you know the more you're aware of other's ignorance.

by John Morgan on Feb 24, 2008 1:04 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I would like to hear more about the Madden

video game effect actually. Admitedly, I know next to nothing about football. At least, when reading your site I understand what you are saying, but would never have known it if you didn't point it out.

Emmett NEEDS to keep announcing. He got "debacled".

So what would Brian Boitano do if he were here today? I'm sure he'd kick an ass or two, that's what Brian Boitano'd do!

by MarinerintheDistrict on Feb 24, 2008 1:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Basically, because Madden misevaluates player's...

abilities, and because Madden puts a huge emphasis on tools rather than skills, it creates a really faulty portrait of the NFL. Its engine allows for a really fast guy with no other talents to be excellent. Whereas a skill player like Bobby Engram is always going to suck. It also creates the false impression that super-gifted tools guys just need to "figure it out" or whatever such nonsense, and not that they just aren't very good at football no matter how tall or how fast.

If Madden wasn't so iconic it wouldn't matter, but with millions of people playing it it has a real impact on people's interpretations of players and the game. In fact, I once read an article about Madden being a gateway to NFL fandom. That's great and all, but don't expect Chris Chambers to be unstoppable or Michael Bennett to outrun everyone to the sidelines on every sweep.

by John Morgan on Feb 25, 2008 2:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Wait

so you, the author a well-written football blog about an NFL playoff team are telling me that my Madden offense wouldn't work in real life???

You're saying that if I can't trade three picks for Randy Moss and then just get a really strong armed QB and throw streaks for the whole game and count on Randy scoring five touchdowns to win??? This is entirely new information!!!!

In all seriousness, I think one of the hugest differences between being the ability to evaluate baseball and football talents is the line play on both sides. Because offensive lineman have no meaningful mainstream stats besides sacks allowed (a negative stat) and defensive lineman have very few (sacks, hurries, tackles) etc, it's much harder to determine the impact of an individual player on a game. Agree/disagree?

by seattlebruin on Feb 26, 2008 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Who the hell thinks Zazh Randolph is good?

If you're referring to Isiah, I'd say his opinion doesn't count for too much right now lol.

by seattlebruin on Feb 24, 2008 1:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Isiah runs the Knicks like a GM on crack

I'm Gomez and I write about many things.

by Gomez on Feb 24, 2008 8:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Cocaine's a hell of a drug

So what would Brian Boitano do if he were here today? I'm sure he'd kick an ass or two, that's what Brian Boitano'd do!

by MarinerintheDistrict on Feb 25, 2008 2:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not even close

the NBA and NFL styles have evolved so fast that conventional wisdom has barely caught up. Most of this is probably because pro basketball and football are so much younger than pro baseball.

by Edgar for Pres on Feb 24, 2008 1:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Well

If you believe Football Outsiders (the leading "sabermetrics" football people, then the NFL as a whole is much more receptive to statistical analysis than baseball, in part because the league has always been about evolving strategy in a way that baseball hasn't...remember, most baseball strategy is a century old.

Kickass Sports Writing - Sportszilla and the Jabber Jocks - www.sportszillablog.com

by Sportszilla on Feb 24, 2008 2:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs