What to do with Morrow

by InSpokane on Feb 12, 2008 12:34 PM PST Comment 91 comments

Rotoworld reported that the M's will put him in the bull pen. Is that his best his use or should they continue with the starter training?

Also are there any other young right handers that would fit in the setup roll?

I wanted to see what the folks who know more than me are thinking about the bull pen. Screwed or we going to be ok?

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He should be in AAA until 2009.

...and now I'm here

by Librocrat on Feb 12, 2008 12:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I only wanted to hear from people smarter than me.

by InSpokane on Feb 12, 2008 12:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Sometimes you are hilarious.

Sadly...

...and now I'm here

by Librocrat on Feb 12, 2008 12:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

sadley it's

only sometimes.

by InSpokane on Feb 12, 2008 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Honestly

the Ramirez/Soriano trade gives in so many ways.

Will Morrow be the highest-drafted reliever ever?

by tait644 on Feb 12, 2008 2:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No

by Matthew on Feb 12, 2008 2:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No... AND...

this comment betrays ignorance of how many first round draft picks never even make it to the majors... let alone have the chance to contribute to a big league bullpen.

That said... I would prefer it if he started 08 in Tacoma. I know Bavasi wants to win now, but we could always bring him up if our bullpen struggles.

by johnbai on Feb 12, 2008 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I believe the answer to that question is...

Matt Anderson. I guess there are the ones who also never made it.

I did however remember him as a recent #1 pick who got taken deep by David Bell to win it in the 9th inning in 2001 IIRC.

As you can see he never started a game.

by Sec 108 on Feb 12, 2008 5:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Should be in Tacoma

by Jeff on Feb 12, 2008 12:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I dunno, it would obviously be best for his development to drop him in AAA for a while to learn to start, but even then we don't have any holes opening up in our rotation until after 2009, so he's not going to be particularly useful for a while. He's not a great reliever, either, so why not flip him to someone for a bat?

by Graham on Feb 12, 2008 12:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

How about Adam Jones?

by Matthew on Feb 12, 2008 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Morrow and Wlad for Jones?

by Graham on Feb 12, 2008 12:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No way

I'd love to, but Jones is way too good. Even a stupid team like Baltimore would know better than to trade him.

Yesterday's Pants

by Katal LM on Feb 12, 2008 1:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If only there was a team dumb enough...

by Robert on Feb 12, 2008 1:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

for just a bat?

don't you think we could get a player in return? Is he really only worth a bat? Why did we trade AJ instead of him???

Yeah, I'm an All-Star.

by MarinerintheDistrict on Feb 12, 2008 12:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But it would be an ALUMINUM bat

MTV Cribs justifies most illegal music downloading.

by Brick on Feb 12, 2008 1:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm ok with this ONLY...

If Sexson and Vidro are both allowed to use it.

Yeah, I'm an All-Star.

by MarinerintheDistrict on Feb 12, 2008 2:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

sexson

has to actually hit the ball to advantage of the aluminum bat

by InSpokane on Feb 12, 2008 3:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

There you are being funny again.

That was cool last year when they showed the guys hitting with an aluminum bat. Richie hit one to the WAYY upper deck....*sigh, would like to see it with a wood stick, DURING A GAME.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Feb 13, 2008 8:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I just want to see him hit

by InSpokane on Feb 13, 2008 8:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

...with a car?

by jtopps on Feb 14, 2008 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I endorse this comment

by Matthew on Feb 14, 2008 12:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I've been hit with a car.

It's not as bad as you'd think.

by Llewdor on Feb 14, 2008 3:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd be down for a trade

Morrow for someone like DeJesus.

LET WLAD BAT!!!!

by MFAN on Feb 12, 2008 12:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

what about the

the rest of the bull pen.

Potatoes
Hyphen
Rhodes
White
Green
Dickey
Lowe

Confident in about a third of these guys. I'm not argueing that marrow will make it better. Just seeing if you guys can me feel better about it.

by InSpokane on Feb 12, 2008 12:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Leave him in the pen.

Looks like a one pitch pitcher with longer than he's got needed to make him a halfway decent starter. I know I'm in the minority here, but I think it's clear the Mariners spent too high of a pick on essentially a borderline setup man. No reason to continue the folly by pretending that he's going to develop into a TOR starter one day. Keep him in the pen, hope he develops a second pitch, hope that he wasn't just very lucky last year. I'm not nearly as baseball savvy as many who visit this site, but I've never understood why a pitcher with one plus pitch, his fastball, who loses essential velocity on that pitch when he must pitch more than an inning or so is thought to have any potential as a starter.

You can ching ching ching cash in on this tragedy.

by John Morgan on Feb 12, 2008 1:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

That's actually a good point.

No one really has that high hopes for him, even as a properly trained starter. May as well train a good reliever.

...and now I'm here

by Librocrat on Feb 12, 2008 2:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I do

and I know there's others.

by Matthew on Feb 12, 2008 2:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

DOV

...and now I'm here

by Librocrat on Feb 12, 2008 2:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

DOV "knows" he's a good starter now;

I have hope that with a year in the minors, he could be at least serviceable.

by Matthew on Feb 12, 2008 2:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh come on, Matthew

Morrow threw 62 changeups last year. He's as polished as tuxedo shoes.

by Grizz11 on Feb 12, 2008 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Tuxedo's have their own shoes?

by Matthew on Feb 12, 2008 2:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

He can still be a viable starter

Just not for us. His value to other teams is greater (as a possible starter, and he's probably only a year off) than his value as a setup guy for the Mariners until we lose Washburn and Bedard in a couple of years.

That screams 'trade' to me.

by Graham on Feb 12, 2008 4:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Did you see his SP stats from winter league?

Sure its winter league, but there was some encouraging signs there.
Our best hope would be for Wash or Batista to get a blister or funny hangnail (nothing serious) but early in the year where Brandon might get a shot for 2-3 starts. See what he can do in the bigs. He's not devoid of secondary pitches, but because they aren't + pitches either, so he needs to learn how to mix pitches better to be successful.
Let him be wild and hard throwing; it makes batters flinch, and if/when he does wrangle his off-speed stuff, the flinching will only help him.
I suppose we disagree on where morrow should fine tune his stuff. I swore I just read someone writing morrow off as NEVER to be a competent starter though, and that scares me. It seems a little early to proclaim anything really about the guy, except that he has a great fastball, great mechanics, marginal offspeed stuff, and marginal/bad command (although winter stats were MUCH better in the command dept.). It's really a good starting point for someone w/ 1yr MLB experience. Lots of pitchers have started a career w/ 1-2 in the pen and have gone on to have good MLB SP careers. Let's 'try' to be more patient than '1 and done'.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Feb 13, 2008 9:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Those pitchers who began in the pen

started games in the minors.

by Jeff on Feb 13, 2008 10:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, didn't Morrow start in college for 2 years?

I know Pac 10 isn't AA or AAA a, but with metal bats, it has to be at least comparable to A ball maybe a little higher.
He HAS started before. In fact, he was '2006 - Pacific 10 Conference All-Star SP'. Again, its not everything, but when he IS a starter he's not horrible.

I still haven't seen enough EITHER way, good or bad. He does have the Verlander heat and showed, most recently in winter ball, he can be an effective starter. It's NOT brand new to him.
Tacoma IS the best place for him to refine his stuff/stretch him out. The m's don't care, he WILL be in the bullpen. My only hope is that if/when someone gets hurt, the m's give him some starts rather than Baek or Fier.
Although Dickey HAS to make this team too...:) Long man over horam.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Feb 13, 2008 11:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

He started 14 games in college, two years ago

That helps him very little at this point.

by Jeff on Feb 13, 2008 11:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not only that...

But he didn't start a ton of games in his college career, either (24 games in 3 years, per BaseballCube). Even if you consider Pac-10 baseball to be A-ball equivalent, and add in his post-draft starts, ~30 starts in 4 years just doesn't scream "MLB-Ready STARTER!!!!" to me...

Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum

by PositivePaul on Feb 13, 2008 12:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Fair enough

he needs more seasoning as a starter. Hopefully, being a bullpen guy teaches him something about getting people out. HA!

How long does it take to stretch someone out? 2 weeks, a year, 2 years? Let's say he has 35 IP at the all star break, so he would concievably be 'warmed up'. Could you then send him to AAA, give him 3 starts and bring him back up? Or would he need a month?

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Feb 13, 2008 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It takes a couple months

but I think Morrow's problem is less about endurance and more about needing a lot more development.

by Jeff on Feb 13, 2008 1:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

VWL stats were encouraging

But I'll never forget 2005 when I was convinced that Clint Nageotte was finally healthy and that he'd reinvented himself as a GB-throwing control artist after his 30:3 K:BB ration in the Arizona Fall League. The next year, he put up his worst season for BB/9, H/9 etc. (min. 50 IP).

We just don't know yet what to make of those stats. It's...odd to me that he looks like a totally different pitcher. Much lower Ks, drastically reduced BB, GBs? Uh, is this the same guy?

I'm not writing him off, I just want to see him start against advanced hitters for a bit (AAA). Then we'll know.

by marc w on Feb 13, 2008 1:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Something I'm REAL curious about...

...w/r/t VWL stats. Aren't the hitters a bit more hack-friendly, and therefore much less willing/able to take a walk? I've been meaning to ask or research this, but keep forgetting to...

Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum

by PositivePaul on Feb 13, 2008 1:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Good question!

And probably.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Feb 13, 2008 1:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Ratio = ration

I thought I was the only one prone to that typo.

by Graham on Feb 13, 2008 1:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Damn it.

Apparently you aren't the only one, Graham.

You're in good company, though.

by marc w on Feb 13, 2008 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Flip him and Willie to STL for Albert Pujols

Duh.

I'm Gomez and I write about many things.

by Gomez on Feb 12, 2008 1:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

It really depends on what you think he can do

If the mariners look at him and think he will never develop well into a SP then you might as well keep him in the bullpen.

If you think he ever becomes a SP then you send him to AAA with no questions asked because he needs to develop his secondary pitches and improve his control.

Right now, he has the skills to become a very useful RP. He's got one good/great pitch and a couple others that are passable. As a RP you don't need much more. If you think over his career he will be more valuable as a RP vs a SP then you keep him with the big club and use him in the bullpen. The M's might look at him right now and be perfectly happy to see him as a RP. I wouldn't be surprised to see him and Sean Green sharing the role of setup man. I could also see Morrow as a future closer in a post-Putz era. Morrow as a closer has some value and if you are betting the farm by the M's making the playoffs in the next two years you might as well keep him in the majors.

by Edgar for Pres on Feb 12, 2008 1:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Draft Lincecum

I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on Feb 12, 2008 1:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'm with Morgan...

His upside while he's still in this organization is Putz's heir-apparent. No way he can develop into an effective starter now, especially since the rotation spots are pretty much locked until 2009.

I'd still try to trade Washburn to an NL team (since no team in the AL West would take him, even though I'd LOVE to see the M's tee off on him several times a year) and move Morrow into his rotation spot. But there's no way the M's do that right now.

And, heh, I'm two-for-three on my "Reasons to be concerned" prediction for Morrow a few days after the draft. That draft f'd us up in so many ways. Had they drafted Miller or Lincecum (who were both clearly more MLB-ready than Morrow, and could handle a rotation spot acceptably) instead of Morrow, it's entirely possible that the Soriano-Ho deal doesn't happen (since TL/Miller would've been more ready for the rotation).

Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum

by PositivePaul on Feb 12, 2008 1:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

flip him

for Brad Lillibridge. I mean Brent Lidge. I mean a bat. oh hell.

by Mere Tantalisers on Feb 12, 2008 1:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

It's tough

On one hand, once you've traded for Bedard, you've committed yourself to winning and you need to assemble the best 25-man roster possible.

On the other, Washburn has a pretty good chance to start sucking total ass one of these next two years. If you put Morrow in Tacoma you at least have a #6 starting pitcher. But this probably doesn't happen unless Lowe is absolutely brutal in ST.

I'm torn.

by chaney on Feb 12, 2008 2:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

As is Lowe.

...and now I'm here

by Librocrat on Feb 12, 2008 2:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh Snap!

as went his elbow

I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on Feb 12, 2008 2:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Bam!

Like Soriano's face.

Yeah, I'm an All-Star.

by MarinerintheDistrict on Feb 12, 2008 2:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

aww :(

...and now I'm here

by Librocrat on Feb 12, 2008 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It was more like his dome

by chaney on Feb 12, 2008 4:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Ouch!

Stings like Josias Manzanillo's nut.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by thejew4u on Feb 13, 2008 11:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Keep him in the pen,

Move him to the rotation after somebody's injured (probably Bedard), watch him collapse, and then trade him for scrap.

by Liebkartoffel on Feb 12, 2008 2:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Oh, I'm sorry.

I forgot we were supposed to be positive. Keep him in the pen! Move him to the rotation after somebody's injured (probably Bedard!)! Watch him collapse! Trade him for scrap!

by Liebkartoffel on Feb 12, 2008 2:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Crap

We are so screwed. We lost out on the Livan Hernandez sweepstakes to the Twins. Someone tell Goose that AZ finally gets it sandwich pick.

You scratch our backs, we'll scratch yours. Well Jules, the funny thing about my back is that it's located on my $#%&.

by AZSEAfan on Feb 12, 2008 3:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Haha really?

Johan who?

I'm Gomez and I write about many things.

by Gomez on Feb 12, 2008 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

5 million for one year

Considering the numbers that were being bandied about for Livan, that's not such a bad signing. Compared to, just to pull a completely random example out of nowhere, Silva.

MLS Seattle

by Nick S on Feb 12, 2008 4:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Livan Hernandez is the worst pitcher in baseball

by Graham on Feb 12, 2008 4:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

He can throw 260 innings.

Badly.

I'm Gomez and I write about many things.

by Gomez on Feb 12, 2008 4:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

worst than Ho Ram

I'll take your word for it, but this really hard for me to picture.

by InSpokane on Feb 12, 2008 4:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

They're close to the same

In terms of how much damage they do when they pitch, but Livan pitches more. And now he's moving to the more difficult league.

by Graham on Feb 12, 2008 4:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

pick your poison

Ho Ram's 2005(NL) his last fully healthy year is pretty much equal, if not better than Livan was last season.

LET WLAD BAT!!!!

by MFAN on Feb 12, 2008 4:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Come on

48/4 for Silva or 5/1 for Hernandez?

MLS Seattle

by Nick S on Feb 12, 2008 5:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Silva, unless you're not trying to contend.

by Graham on Feb 12, 2008 5:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Realistically, the Twins aren't this year

I probably phrased that badly. I didn't mean 'which would have been better for us,' just which is the overall better deal. Silva's gonna suck. Livan is gonna suck, probably more.

The advantage for the Twins? They get a dude to mentor Baker, Bonser, and whoever, as well as a name guy to give fans excitement. And he's cheap. So it makes enough sense. Our advantage? Uh, we get a tiny improvement over Cha Cha Baek/Hyphen/Morrow/whoever, and use a ton of salary. I'm just not seeing it.

MLS Seattle

by Nick S on Feb 12, 2008 5:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Silva's a league average pitcher

He's something on the order of 35 runs better than Livan Hernandez.

by Graham on Feb 12, 2008 5:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

...yeah, didn't realise the gap was that big

I had just been scanning their superficial stats which are actually pretty similar. Mah. I suppose this is why I write about soccer instead of pretending to know stuff about baseball.

OTOH, you will never ever convince me that Livan is worse than HoRam.

MLS Seattle

by Nick S on Feb 12, 2008 10:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Silva doesn't suck

His contract does.

I'm Gomez and I write about many things.

by Gomez on Feb 12, 2008 7:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

$5M for Livan

another $2.4M for Little Nicky Punto, another $4M for Craig Monroe, $3M or so for Mike Lamb.

All of these "cheap" deals add up.

The Twins just traded Johan because they would not pay him a contract that amounts to $120M / 6.

A couple years ago, Brian Sabean famously said this:

shaundarbie: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?

Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Jim] Brower, [Scott] Eyre, [Matt] Herges, [Dustin] Hermanson, [Brett] Tomko, [A.J.] Pierzynski, Feliz, [J.T.] Snow, [Jeffrey] Hammonds, [Dustan] Mohr and Tucker -- obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Feb 13, 2008 11:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

My first concern is not increasing the IP

from 07 to 08 too dramatically. I don't think it would be wise to try and have Morrow pitch much more than 120 innings and even that would be pushing it. I think that was the biggest problem with having Morrow be in the pen last year - it is going to take a few years before his body can handle pitching 200 innings in a year.

IF Morrow can continue to improve, I'd try to keep him fresh for Washburn's 90 pitch starts. He can come in in the 5th - 7th innings and build up his arm strength by pitching a few innings at a time. If he can improve his secondary pitches this year with 100 - 120 innings or so, I'd prepare him to pitch 160-180 innings or so in 09 at the back of the rotation.

I'd try do the same thing with Roland-Smith with the hopes I could trade at least one of the Bautista/Washburn duo near the '09 trading deadline for prospects or help with the '09 pennant.

That said, I have my doubts of Morrow becoming an effective SP because of his secondary stuff. Of course, I'm no scout. I'm only going on what I didn't see last year and what the LL/USSM blog-o-sphere has to offer.

by Jed MC on Feb 12, 2008 3:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Morrow

Jed: that as good an idea as I've heard if they're not going to send him to the minors. Long relief and perhaps the occasional spot start because of injury or to rest a starter.

This is the way the season ends, season ends, season ends. This is the way the season ends--not with a swing but a called strike.

by Celadus on Feb 12, 2008 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

But you'd think we'd be hearing about the Morrow Rules -- similar to the Joba rules or before that the Felix rules -- if this was the actual plan. Sounds like more of a blind upside that the M's haven't been considering or planning for.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by thejew4u on Feb 13, 2008 11:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

What happens to Morrow

its probably 100% dependent on what happens to Lowe.

If Lowe comes back healthy like during his first callup and can be relied upon the need for Morrow at the back end is lessened so they can use him for longer relief, especially if Green picks up where he left off.

If Lowe doesn't come back.... Morrow is your 7th and 8th inning guy.

by MfaninAlaska on Feb 12, 2008 4:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Question

Is there any difference in how were grooming Morrow and how the Yankees are grooming Joba to become a Starter? Granted Joba actually had starts in the minors.

Sounds like Joba is starting this year in the pen.

Shop smart......Shop s-mart...... YOU GOT THAT!!!!

by Scruffy Lefty on Feb 12, 2008 5:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

by marc w on Feb 12, 2008 5:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

er..

Granted Joba actually had starts in the minors.

I think this is a pretty big one. Also, I think Joba has more/better pitches - much like the way hyphen is closer to being ready to start than Morrow. But I'll let experts tell you differently.

...and now I'm here

by Librocrat on Feb 12, 2008 5:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs