Deconstructing WHIP
WHIP sucks.
What's wrong with it? Let me give you a list.
1) Assumes hits given up are entirely under the pitcher's control.
Did you know that defence isn't entirely static? Funny that. Hits don't occur at the same rate in front of different fielders and in different ballparks, and the variation in defence/park effect far outstrips any variation in hit prevention skill amongst ML calbire pitching.
2) Assumes innings pitched are entirely under the pitcher's control.
Sort of the same as point one but so crucial I decided to mention it twice. Outs are determined by pitcher skill, defence, and park effects. Pretending that the latter two don't exist when trying to measure pitcher effectiveness is a bad idea.
3) Improper mapping of different types of hits to different run values.
WHIP values a single the same as as a home run. At least ERA doesn't have this problem.
The problem with throwing together a set of numbers that look vaguely similar and calling them statistics is that generally the result means, in layman's terms, sweet bugger all. For all intents and purposes, WHIP is ERA except worse. At least ERA tries to measure runs, while all WHIP does is... measure walks and hits per inning pitched.
It's crap like this that gives real analysis a bad name. Fantasy baseball has a lot to answer for.
113 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
While you shouldn't use WHIP ever
Isn’t it a bit better than ERA, because it at least tried to measure on-base percentage, as opposed to runs scored?
Furcal
Runs scored against is a better measure of run prevention than pseudo-OBP
by Graham MacAree on Dec 2, 2008 10:42 PM PST up reply actions
Measuring runs scored against is still the ideal of pitcher valuation
ERA happens to suck at it, but at least it’s trying.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 2, 2008 11:11 PM PST up reply actions
Nope
It’s perhaps interesting, but certainly less important.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 2, 2008 11:31 PM PST up reply actions
WHIP is my favorite math-phobic journalist's mocked statistic
WHUP, WHOP, FLOP, FLIP, SHIP, WHAT, WHIN, et cetera. I made all of those up, but they all seem like plausible variations of dumb acronyms created by stat-blind, Moneyball-bashing “baseball analysts”, who somehow still manage to retain their jobs despite churning out articles full of misinformation and back-handed swipes at people who use math to describe things.
But the hilarious part is that no one who knows a thing about baseball analysis believes WHIP is even marginally worthy.
I never heard of WHIP in my life until I started playing fantasy baeball.
Then when I looked up just what the hell this stat meant, the first thing that came to mind was, “wow, that’s pretty retarded. They really use this to determine fantasy champions and cash prizes?”
I haven’t played fantasy baseball in two years. Coincidentally, that’s around the same time I discovered sabermetrics.
Every day I hear about Seattle sports' failures. Every night I fall asleep to the sound of my own tears.
WHIP
more useless than even OPS?
Adopted Giant: Aaron King
Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat
Doesn't OPS correlate well with runs scored on a team level?
I remember a 2006 or 2005 article from THT about this and it being comparable to RC and Base Runs in that regard.
by Fez on Dec 3, 2008 1:15 AM PST up reply actions
It's got an R^2 of .989
from 1967-2007 for the AL.
Just to clarify:
This relationship is between teams runs scored and team OPS?
by FlaskInSafeco on Dec 3, 2008 9:26 AM PST up reply actions
The THT article that Fez linked to above
found an R2 correlation of .9128 between team OPS and team runs scored for all teams from 2000-2004, which is in line with the correlations if seen calculated for this in other places. I find it hard to believe that there was an R2 of .989 between runs scored and any other offensive statistic. That’s a pretty ridiculously high correlation. The nice thing about OPS is that it predicts runs scored on the team level nearly as well as more advanced offensive stats and it’s much simpler to calculate.
by FlaskInSafeco on Dec 3, 2008 9:57 AM PST up reply actions
That .989 correlation is for OPS to Runs per Game for the entire AL (not any individual teams) 1967-2007
I did that as part of a mini-project for a basic stats class. Using R/G probably decreases some of the variation due to different amounts of games played. I know .989 is really high, but that’s what the numbers say.
Oh, OK for the entire league.
That certainly makes it more believable. I buy it. If that’s the case I wonder if the more sophisticated stats do better when regressed over the entire league. I mean, from .989 there’s really not much room for improvement.
by FlaskInSafeco on Dec 3, 2008 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
How well does WHIP correlate to RA?
I bet its pretty good.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 3, 2008 9:36 AM PST up reply actions
OPS is OK.
It doesn’t weight things properly, but it’s at least measuring the two most important things a hitter can do — get on base and hit for power.
In Moneyball they mentioned that OBP is roughly three times as important as SLG,
which is something I hear repeated all over the place. How do you suppose the Oakland guys figured this? I suppose they might have created a formula for a stat we could call “adjusted OPS (aOPS)” and say that aOPS = c*(OBP) + (SLG), where c is some constant. Then if you ran a bunch of regressions of team aOPS vs. team Runs Scored for different values of c, you could find an optimal c that gave you the best correlation, and the Oakland guys might have found that c ~= 3. Maybe I’m doing this wrong. Thoughts, anyone?
If you did something like this, I’d be curious to see how much the constant fluctuated over different seasons (i.e. is OBP more or less important in relation to SLG during higher or lower run-scoring environments?). Also, if we are fairly confident that using 3*OBP + SLG will give you a better predicter of runs scored than just OPS, why isnt this stat used more often? It’s not that much more difficult to calculate. I also wonder how a stat like that would stack up against some of the more sophisticated offensive measurements, like runs created.
by FlaskInSafeco on Dec 3, 2008 10:11 AM PST up reply actions
GPA is what you're after
Matthew wrote about it a while ago here
by Graham MacAree on Dec 3, 2008 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
Thanks. I always thought saying OBP was 3 times as important as SLG seemed a bit much.
Any idea of how GPA stacks up against BaseRuns or some of the other more sophisticated offensive metrics in terms of predicting runs scored? Also, it seems like in this study GPA was regressed against BaseRuns, and not runs scored. Any particular reason for this? I would think that you would want to be aiming to predict actual runs scored.
by FlaskInSafeco on Dec 3, 2008 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
i was talking more about on an individual level
but i guess i’ll keep OPS around for occasional use
Adopted Giant: Aaron King
Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat
As flawed as WHIP is, its rise gives me hope.
When I first started hearing about it in the early 90’s most people ignored it. Now it is commonly accepted.
Keep pimping tRA and in a decade it may make its way into the common culture.
But by the time tRA is commonly accepted, robots that are controlled by stat geeks will rule the baseball diamond.
from their mom's basement.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on Dec 3, 2008 9:45 AM PST up reply actions
Not just the baseball diamond.
I dream of the day when robots controlled by stat geeks rule the judicial system.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
The first one is always fine as they create a comfort level.
The second one is where the trouble starts.
It's funny to me when I read random internet comments deriding tRA for being a made up stat
and the comment then uses WHIP to show how tRA is flawed.
WHIP is exactly the sort of statistic these people should be yelling against. It’s arbitrary and backed up by no useful analysis. It is a stat for stat’s sake. WHIP is what’s ruining baseball.
Ruining baseball?
That’s a bit hyperbolic. WHIP has one single use – fantasy baseball. It works in that context. To steal Graham’s phrase, fantasy baseball means sweet bugger all in the context of actual baseball; let the WHIPheads have it in their fantasy leagues, and leave it at that.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on Dec 3, 2008 8:03 AM PST up reply actions
I get what Matthew is saying though.
I know a lot of people who are heavy into fantasy baseball, and the statistics that their leagues use are the only statistics they give a crap about. So when you try and tell them that Player X isn’t very good, they use Player X’s fantasy value to point out how wrong you are. It’s immensely frustrating.
by Aaron Campeau on Dec 3, 2008 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, I get that too
but if a person’s baseball experience/conversational knowledge is limited to a player’s fantasy baseball usefulness, I tend to not listen to them very much in the first place.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
There's no defense in fantasy baseball.
You could start Albert Pujols at second
Furcal
by JI on Dec 3, 2008 10:17 AM PST up reply actions
I run a fantasy league, and it's definitely a challenge to separate the two.
I look at stupid stats because I have to, but you have to keep them out of your real-baseball evaluation.
ah, got it
I’m a bit slow today. I ruined the internet.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
I will never understand how 'WHIP' became associated with sabermetrics
and how dumb writers mock sabermetrics by saying all they care about is WHIP. Bizarre.
I also don’t get how it became such a fad in fantasy leagues. Why? What’s the point of it? The only thing that makes sense to me is trying to have a stat that you can draft around, but still includes sweet, sweet volatility. I don’t know why RA doesn’t provide that, but there you go.
The more you look at it, the more hilarious it gets. It’s not even a useful shorthand for anything. OK fine, it maps -sort of – to OBP. But….OBP doesn’t need to be shortened. It’s short! Just fucking use it! As cobbled-together and sort of messed up as OPS is, it works and DOES highlight two components of run scoring that mean more (esp. combined) than the ubiquitous batting average. WHIP obscures far more than it illuminates, and really needs to go away.
Why? What’s the point of it?
To measure how often pitchers allow baserunners. If your league is awarding points for best OBP, it makes sense to award points for preventing baserunners.
Furcal
by JI on Dec 3, 2008 10:19 AM PST up reply actions
Right, but fantasy baseball points have precious little revelence to wins/losses in real baseball
by Graham MacAree on Dec 3, 2008 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
I need to turn on subject line spell check at work
Fucking dsylexia
by Graham MacAree on Dec 3, 2008 10:50 AM PST up reply actions
I've only played fantasy baseball once -- last year.
Like most fantasy games, the stats used in our league had little bearing on winning actual baseball games: sb (but not cs), avg, hr, rbi, runs, era, whip, saves, wins, and strikeouts. You were awarded a “win” or “loss” for each statistical category over the course of a week in a head-to-head matchup with another team.
While I would definitely agree that the usage of these sorts of stats in fantasy games contributes to the ignorance of the average sports fan, I would argue that these stats made the fantasy league more interesting from a gaming standpoint. I mean, could you imagine a fantasy league where the offensive categories were wOBA, Eqa, OPS, BaseRuns, and VORP? While this might be a better measure of baseball knowledge, it would probably be pretty boring. Good players would be generally good in all categories, and bad players would generally suck in all categories. In the dumber version of fantasy, you have to think about how to game it to pick up the bullshit categories like sb and saves.
Anyway, all that said, I really try to avoid fantasy sports. It takes up time with really irrelevent stuff, and I hate even the slightest possibility of feeling conflicted while watching a game because of fantasy reasons.
by FlaskInSafeco on Dec 3, 2008 10:43 AM PST up reply actions
I don't mind fantasy sports, but don't play it much
I was in an AL-only, very sabr-friendly league that used Tango’s run values for events (1b, 2b, k, HR, etc.). A lot of fun, I suppose, but it’s a hell of a lot of work to update line-ups every day.
also, I got my ass kicked, so that was less cool. Injuries. Damned injuries.
We subbed out BA for OBP in my league, and it's awesome.
But the rest of the 5×5 categories don’t have easy replacements like that, unfortunately.
I'm not sure what the point of this FanPost was, to be honest
you’re pretty much preaching to the choir here
Something to link to.
I love posts like this because Graham is better at explaining these things than I am, so I can just say “read this” when I get into arguments.
by Aaron Campeau on Dec 3, 2008 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
Heh, just saying
the Triumvirate has us all conditioned to the point where when we see a pitching metric the first thing we do is ask “does it include hits?” and if it does, consider it stupid
by seattlebruin on Dec 3, 2008 12:49 PM PST up reply actions
and yet it's the smallest letter in the acronym.
Why are you t-ist?
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on Dec 3, 2008 2:53 PM PST up reply actions
Graham's been conducting an elaborate experiment on you.
Trajan is my favorite emperor.
Have you tried the new trattoria?
I’m excited to see GMZ pull of some trades.
Where have you traveled (besides Belgium), John?
I only have one friend who could do that and not be racially insensitive
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 3, 2008 4:11 PM PST up reply actions
You're friends with Robert Downey Jr?
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on Dec 3, 2008 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
The good things about WHIP
First off, i want to state that I think WHIP is a far inferior stat to many others out there today. I do not use it and never just look it up a player’s WHIP.
That said, it is not a horrible stat. Its good points:
1) Its easy to calculate. This is an overlooked variable when we are thinking about stats. I can tell any baseball fan older than 5 yrs old what WHIP stands for and they can figure out what a pitcher’s WHIP is. It also makes a lot of intuitive sense. A game is 9 innings long. The team that wins probably is the team that gave up less hits/walks.
2) Its more accurate than you probably think. I took the data from the teams last year. Team runs allowed and WHIP correlate with an R^2 of 0.89. That’s pretty good although probably not too surprising. WHIP and OBP are almost identical and OBP is a good predictor of runs scored. It is pretty well accepted that a combination of OBP and SLG gives a good predictor of runs scored.
For example GPA is a good predictor of runs scored. GPA = 0.25*(1.8*OBP + SLG) = 0.25*[2.8*BA+1.8*(ISOpa+ISOpo)]. Since WHIP accounts for BA and OBP (although not with the perfect weights), it can still be a good indicator of runs scored even though it ignores the effect of extra base hits.
3) Also, it is able to take into account strikeouts in a nonintuitive way. If a pitcher strikes out more batters there will be less batters who have a chance to get hits because he faces less batters per inning pitched. Although its not a great way to go about taking into account the value of a strike out, its in there whether you think about it or not.
When it comes down to it, WHIP isn’t a perfect stat. Its never hidden what it tries to do (the explanation of it is in the name). It doesn’t tell you who the best pitcher is. It doesn’t predict the future. It doesn’t tell you who scored the most runs. It doesn’t take into account extra base hits or the effect a defense has on a pitcher. It only tells you how many baserunners a pitcher allows per inning he pitches. Its extremely easy and wraps hits allowed and walks into an intuitive package. That’s the main reason why its used in fantasy baseball and every now and then quoted in the mainstream media. For fantasy owners, predicting WHIP requires a fair amount of skill because so many factors affect it and I think its a totally reasonable fantasy stat.
Should WHIP be entirely abandoned? I don’t think so. Its basically OBP for a pitcher and I think that WHIP is easier to calculate since its on an IP basis. I want to repeat that I think the simplicity of WHIP should not be overlooked. I know it doesn’t really do much that’s useful by itself but web pages are big and I think there is always a place somewhere on that page to put WHIP.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 3, 2008 8:26 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Caring about pitcher OBP to model runs scored against is stupid.
Here is why: Offensive OBP is a model for runs scored, since individual batters rely on their teammates to score runs. Guess what?
You don’t need to model runs scored against for a pitcher because we already have runs scored against. ERA is better than WHIP in every single way. And ERA sucks.
For fantasy owners, predicting WHIP requires a fair amount of skill because so many factors affect it and I think its a totally reasonable fantasy stat.
Fantasy baseball needs to die. In it’s current state, it is detrimental to the advancement of knowledge.
I know it doesn’t really do much that’s useful by itself but web pages are big and I think there is always a place somewhere on that page to put WHIP.
I could also put R/PA for batters on a website. It doesn’t make it any less stupid.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 3, 2008 9:35 PM PST up reply actions
We have tRA, xFIP, and FIP.
Should we get rid of xFIP and FIP because tRA is better. Isn’t tRA better in ever way?
I also didn’t want to make the point that WHIP should be used to model runs scored. I was trying to say that WHIP provides information that can be useful/interesting. Do you think OBP for pitchers is a totally irrelevant stat? I don’t (although I realize its problems).
I think the reason I’m trying to stand up for WHIP is when I look at a pitcher’s line for a game usually I subconsciously compute something analogous to WHIP in my mind to see how he did by looking at BB+H, K, HR, and IP. Usually that’s the minimum info you need to know how a pitcher did.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 3, 2008 10:01 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, I think OBP for pitchers is completely irrelevant.
You could try looking at runs against to see how a pitcher did.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 3, 2008 10:08 PM PST up reply actions
Just to be clear
I never use WHIP. When I do look at it, it is not to try to figure out how good a pitcher is.
WHIP and OBP only tell me of the history of a pitcher.
Its a lot like reading the stats on the back of a baseball card. The number of hits a pitcher give up isn’t neccasarily an indicator of his true talent without more information which isn’t usually provided. That doesn’t mean its not interesting to look at.
For example…
In 2007, Jeff Weaver gave up 50 hits and 7 walks in 22 IP. That’s a WHIP of 2.59.
That fact tells us next to nothing about Jeff Weaver’s true talent level. It does tell us he had a shitty couple months.
Stats don’t always need to enlighten us about the truths in the world. Sometimes they can tell us stories about the past.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 3, 2008 10:18 PM PST up reply actions
Stats for their own sake are completely meaningless.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 3, 2008 10:27 PM PST up reply actions
I think his point was that WHIP is easy to calculate, unlike FIP, xFIP or any of the tRA variations, and that gives it some intuitive value
rather than a stat where you need a spreadsheet to figure it out. Like he said, it’s not perfect by any stretch, or really even very good, but the fact that it’s a very simple statistic makes it somewhat helpful
by seattlebruin on Dec 3, 2008 10:59 PM PST up reply actions
Simplicity for its own sake isn't a good thing.
Sometimes simple is good, but this isn’t a simple thing.
by Aaron Campeau on Dec 3, 2008 11:01 PM PST up reply actions
WHIP makes more intuitive sense than a tRA or FIP
and that’s a good thing. And no, I’m not advocating WHIP or ERA. Not by a long shot.
It doesn't "mean" anything
but it tells about what happened. Sometimes I just want to know what happened and I don’t want to know how good somebody is. Not all stats need to be about talent evaluation or indicators of individual contributions.
If you look at a box score, how do you tell if a pitcher did well? You look at his K, BB, HR, and H rates. Not looking at his hit rate is just being ignorant in your evaluation of how a pitcher performed. It may be a fluke but it actually happened and if you want to see what happened its an important indicator of how the game played out.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 4, 2008 11:33 AM PST up reply actions
No, looking at hits allowed in a box score
and attributing that to your evaluation of the pitcher is misguided and wrong.
I'm not evaluating a pitcher's talent
I’m trying to figure out if he got shelled or not.
For example, none of us would enjoy watching a pitcher give up 10 hits even if tRA says he should have pitched a perfect game. How did you feel watching Jeff Weaver get rocked back in 2007 even though all indicators pointed to him not being as bad as he was (although still bad).
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 4, 2008 1:00 PM PST up reply actions
but in fantasy baseball that's irrelevant
which is what I think EfP’s point is.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on Dec 4, 2008 1:11 PM PST up reply actions
I think we all agree on that though.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.
by pdb on Dec 4, 2008 1:19 PM PST up reply actions
Seriously how the fuck can you say with a straight face that the first thing you do is look at WHIP
It’s ERA but worse because it doesn’t actually correlate with runs.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 4, 2008 1:25 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not saying I look at WHIP first
I’m just saying it gives you other info than just ERA. If you look at one game though, getting the most info you can in the shortest amount of time is the most efficent way to figure out what happened in the game. Looking at earned runs tells very little. If you expand what you look at to look at all peripherals availible including hits then you gain more information. I completely understand the caveats of taking into account hits but ignoring that information would be counterproductive. Discounting the value of hits is totally acceptable though I think.
I guess I should focus my arguement and say that I’m not trying to use this as a fantasy owner. Its just one of the things I kinda compute in my head when I look at a box score. I don’t use it to predict or understand talent or player contribution. I’m not basing any future beliefs on it. I just use it to understand what happened in the game.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 4, 2008 1:50 PM PST up reply actions
"If you expand what you look at to look at all peripherals availible including hits then you gain more information."
By which you mean ‘looking at walks and hits’?
by Graham MacAree on Dec 4, 2008 2:27 PM PST up reply actions
Do you think no-hitters should be kept track of?
They are based on a misguided notion that these games are much better but really pitching a no hitter requires a lot of luck.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 4, 2008 1:02 PM PST up reply actions
No, I don't put much care in no-hitters
unless I see one in person.
I don't disagree that it's intuitive, but sometimes intuition leads to incorrect conclusions.
by Aaron Campeau on Dec 4, 2008 9:26 AM PST up reply actions
Don't blame a stat
Blame the people who don’t know what they are doing.
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 4, 2008 11:29 AM PST up reply actions
ERA is better than WHIP though
And it’s easier to calculate so really why the hell are you using WHIP?
by Graham MacAree on Dec 3, 2008 11:17 PM PST up reply actions














