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Two Things

I liked this article by Baker that went up this morning. There's lots of interesting stuff in there throughout the whole piece. It seems like, as we've put more distance between ourselves and last season, when it comes to points of intra-blogosphere disagreement we've been able to raise the level of dialogue and reduce the amount of snark and dismissiveness of which we were all guilty, and that can only be good for everyone. Because who wants to feud with a beat writer who actually has the stones to ask Raul Ibanez about his defense?

Anyway, Baker raised two particular points that I want to talk about a little bit. The first concerns Raul's ability to produce at the plate while being an everyday player in the field. There are a few different directions you can go with this, but as for the main one, it's true - Raul deserves some credit for being able to play almost every day. Since 2005, he's only missed 16 games. Durability matters, because the more playing time you get out of your starters, the less you have to get out of your inferior backups. It's helpful to have a guy who can play the outfield every day without getting worn down and requiring a weekly breather.

In the end, though, while durability is good, it doesn't really provide you with that much of a boost. Let's take a hypothetical team that has two players: LF A, who's a 3-win player, and LF B, who's a 0.5-win player. LF A is the starter, and LF B is the backup. How does left field's contribution to the team change as you decrease LF A's projected playing time?

LF A, 160 games: +3 wins
LF A, 150 games: +2.8
LF A, 140 games: +2.7
LF A, 130 games: +2.5
LF A, 120 games: +2.4
LF A, 110 games: +2.2
LF A, 100 games: +2.0

For every additional ten games, you're talking about a small fraction of a win.

It's good that Raul is durable. The last step in the WAR calculation is a multiplier for playing time, and the more playing time you expect a guy to get, the higher his WAR ends up being. But, statistically, a guy who plays a full season is only a few runs more valuable than a guy who misses a little time. It's something, but it's only a very minor selling point.

Maybe this isn't what Baker was talking about when he extolled Raul's ability to be an everyday player. That part was a little unclear to me. If he was referring to the fact that Raul can produce at a moderately high level while patrolling the outfield, then that should show up in the numbers, because he's compared against his peers, and if his peers have more of a tendency to wear down, then that'll make them look worse. But Raul doesn't really stand out from the pack in that regard. So I dunno. Maybe I'm missing something.

The second point I wanted to address was Baker's assertion that offensive statistics are much more accurate and precise than defensive statistics. He's right, obviously. Our measures of how a guy performed at the plate right now are nearly perfect, whereas our measures of how the same guy performed in the field leave a little something to be desired. This is why we can, say, refer to a player as having been worth X runs at the plate but worth Y < Z < (Y + 10) runs with the glove. You can only narrow defense down by so much before you run into trouble.

But with rare exception, we can get those ranges down to a reasonable magnitude. We might as well take Raul as an example. UZR, PMR, and +/- combine to project him as a ~ -15 run defensive LF. They're all in pretty good agreement with each other. And if they're calling him -15, then that means we can say with a reasonable degree of confidence that he's really somewhere between -10 and -20. All things considered, that's a pretty narrow range. Over a full season, it's less than one win.

Because of the error inherent in evaluating a guy's defense, front offices should absolutely put more weight on his bat. They'd be stupid not to. But they also need to keep the guy's defense in mind. You can't just pay a player without thinking much about his glove, because that's a legitimate concern that demands a lot of attention. Teams should always be conservative in their defensive evaluation - that'll keep them from overvaluing defense, as Baker warns against - but they still need to consider a player's estimated defensive ability and factor it into the decisions they make, because not doing so undervalues defense, and that's just as big of a problem. Defensive evaluation is still in its infancy, but it's the teams that do it and the teams that understand it that really have an edge.

0 recs | Comment 27 comments

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It seems to me that

forward-thinking teams always find undervalued attributes and exploit them to their gain.

Maybe 5-10 years ago, it was stats like OBP and SLG that were being used by forward-thinking teams over AVG, HR, RBI, SB, etc by the more conventional teams.

Now, or at least recently, it appears that the focus is more and more on defense (probably because of developments like FIP, UZR, BABIP) and various other attributes like replacement-level, leverage, etc.

It gives me great hope and endless joy that it appears we can now count ourselves as a forward-thinking team.

Yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph.

by JordanB on Dec 19, 2008 2:52 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Of course, if Raul had taken himself out of the lineup when he was hurt in 2007,

his rate numbers would have ended up better and his playing time worse, but the team would have been much better off. So I’m not sure durability, when it ends up in a fashion such as that, is such a virtue.

by Matthew on Dec 19, 2008 2:57 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're definitely right

but outside of that, it seems like Raul’s been remarkably good about staying pretty healthy. Might as well give him what credit we can.

by Jeff on Dec 19, 2008 3:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think its important to note...

That Raul does have value. League avg players do have value. League avg players who can play everday have more value than a league avg players who doesn’t have value. That being said, the phillies are the only organization that thought Raul is worth 3/30mil and had an opening for him.

by coasty141 on Dec 19, 2008 3:01 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Am I doing it right?

Ibanez

Offense:.369 wOBA*
Defense: -13.33 (repeating), 3 yr average
Position: -0.75

=1.74 WAR

Or change the defense to a 2yr average (-17.45)

=1.36 WAR

by JI on Dec 19, 2008 3:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pretty much

and even if one were to call Raul a -10 defender instead, it’s worth mentioning that Marcel projects an offensive decline. The man is old, after all.

by Jeff on Dec 19, 2008 3:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey, and if you factor in a trip to the DL

or him being semi-platooned you can knock off a tenth or two of a win

by JI on Dec 19, 2008 3:24 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

error

*. League avg players who can play everday have more value than a league avg players who doesn’t have value. - should be league avg player who can play everyday have more value than a league avg player who cannot play every day.

by coasty141 on Dec 19, 2008 3:03 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

isn't the value of an everyday player measured by better bench, rather than better position?

As you said, durability is about not having to run out an inferior player to that position. But it’s also about possibly not needing to carry that specific inferior player in the first place.

Your bench can then be constructed more on the basis of who you want to see – good pinch hitters, your prospects up for a cup of coffee – rather than on who you need to platoon with someone to shore up specific weaknesses.

Kind of like the ripple effect that a starter has on the bullpen, when the starter can’t go more than 5ish innings due to injury or lack of endurance. Long relief pitchers, or guys up from AAA, or guys-with-roles-pitching-longer-than-normal-because-they’re-the-only-fresh-arms, don’t have to be in as much if the starter goes 7+ innings consistently.

by Spoomeister on Dec 19, 2008 3:48 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is there a grey area where I can say Ibanez is a good defender in theory

but just really really slow?

Like he knows what he is doing and takes good routes but just can’t get to balls because he is slow. Would this make him a bad defender or a poor athlete?

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 19, 2008 4:08 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well Raul isn't the best example

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 19, 2008 4:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

numbers reminds me

Steve Phillips was on ESPN late last night, opining that Boston was smart to not get sucked in by Boras, as he thought Tex wasn’t worth the money/years. He thought that you could get the same performance out of Youklis, and you wouldn’t pay Youk that kind of money, would you?

by msb on Dec 19, 2008 4:53 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The stats may be in their infancy...

Defensive evaluation is still in its infancy, but it’s the teams that do it and the teams that understand it that really have an edge.

Trying to quantify it may still be a work in progress, but it’s not like they ignored it in the past, in fact it was perhaps overvalued for certain positions. One good objective scout who watches 20 or 30 games has probably only double or triple the margin of error of a single defensive stat (a guess). Unless there’s something misleading about a player (see Reed’s defense during that first call up), if you get enough eyes together you probably have a reasonable approximation of what the stats can tell you today as how a guy compares to his peers.

I think the big difference is that there wasn’t a good way to quantify offense and defense in the past. Good and bad were obvious, but how much bad on one side could be offset on the other?

by Sidi on Dec 19, 2008 11:57 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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