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First Speculation Opportunity Of The Winter

Tiny by Jeff on in Regular News Comment 251 comments

About damn time.

Baker:

Also, Zduriencik has had conversations about another free-agent and may have an answer in 48 hours.

LaRue:

As the coaches were being introduced, GM Jack Zduriencik said he had one contract offer on the table to an unnamed free agent...

Hickey:

GM Jack Zduriencik said in a conference call Monday afternoon that he has one offer out to a free agent. He wouldn't say who it would be, but did say he hoped to have an answer ''in the next 24-48 hours.''

The free agent is:

-a position player
-not Mark Teixeira
-not Griffey
-not Manny Ramirez
-not Barry Bonds

...which leaves us with but several dozen possibilities.

If it turns out to be Ben Broussard my heart will melt.

0 recs  |  Comment 251 comments

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HOW COULD YOU LEAVE THIS OUT
Mariners GM Jack Zduriencik said moments ago that he has had a conversation with the agent for outfielder Ken Griffey

Furcal

by JI on Dec 1, 2008 4:16 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Not interesting

and 95% odds Goldberg initiated

by Jeff on Dec 1, 2008 4:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Does Goldberg have any other clients?

I am no longer in Spokane, but I think I'll keep the name anyway.

by InSpokane on Dec 1, 2008 4:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I was trying to narrow options for speculations

I am no longer in Spokane, but I think I'll keep the name anyway.

by InSpokane on Dec 1, 2008 4:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OK, I understand not being interested in Griffey

But what’s with all the active hate? I mean, I hope that they don’t go anywhere NEAR him, but why are so many people here so hostile?

by Karma Police on Dec 1, 2008 4:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Because it's a terrible baseball decision

and many (otherwise smart) people are blind to that because they can’t separate their personal feelings from business.

Furcal

by JI on Dec 1, 2008 4:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think I've seen irrational Griffey love since his like May 2008

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 1, 2008 5:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I irrationally love Griffey and would buy M's tickets if he were to come back

then of course I’d buy the tickets either way but…

If we’re going to suck, I’m totally OK with the nostalgia trip while we’re at it

by seattlebruin on Dec 1, 2008 5:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm, I wonder if he can get to 3,000

2,680 right now. He might have a shot if he plays for AL teams and plays DH for the next two years…

by seattlebruin on Dec 1, 2008 5:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Because some of us aren't infatuated with Griffey

And don’t want 4 years of nauseating Griffey circle jerks to make us hate this team anymore than we already do.

by Robert on Dec 1, 2008 6:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Four years?

That’s optimistically pessimistic.

by Matthew on Dec 1, 2008 6:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Furcal

by JI on Dec 1, 2008 4:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Only midly racist?

How the fuck are my eyes able to see that?

by edddgar on Dec 1, 2008 5:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Amazing, I was able to see it instantly as well.

The human brain is the shiz when it comes to pattern recognition.

Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism

by esoteric on Dec 3, 2008 2:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I invite "Mr. X" to come around here and try to defend these bullshit comments
DMZ is your typical, bargain basement liberal. He looks at Ichiro Suzuki, and sees his race first. Then the makes the dramatic leap that other people who share Ichiro’s race would feel threatened here as well. These people are race-obsessed, and can’t see anything beyond it. Unless every player from Japan shares Ichiro’s unique character traits (trying to be nice here), I don’t know why they would have anything to worry about.

Fucking wow.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Dec 1, 2008 5:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This makes lots of sense

I can tell you for one that growing up Japanese in Seattle was very hard on me because of racist assholes like DMZ.

Uh…. seriously? That was one of the weirdest comments of all time, especially how he blamed Derek for being race obsessed

by seattlebruin on Dec 1, 2008 5:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

P.S.
Why does everyone assume that since he is from Japan that he is going to be good. The guy wasn’t even drafted for the Japanese professional leagues and he was playing amateur ball last year. Sure he throws 95 but so do a lot of highschool and and college players who never crack the big leagues. Giving 3 million to an unproven amateur palyer would be stupid and I say good for the M’s for not offering him the moon.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but Tazawa was the one that asked the pros not to draft him so he could go play in America, right?

by seattlebruin on Dec 1, 2008 5:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I take offense with that

if only because I use “Mr. X” as a bowling nickname. I wish to not be associated with the above quote.

by Two Rs and Two Ls on Dec 1, 2008 7:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OMG DMZ IS RACIST

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Washingtonhighways.org

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 1, 2008 6:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

One of the comments had a bizarre, random swipe at Derek:

“DMZ is your typical, bargain basement liberal. He looks at Ichiro Suzuki, and sees his race first. Then the makes the dramatic leap that other people who share Ichiro’s race would feel threatened here as well. These people are race-obsessed, and can’t see anything beyond it. Unless every player from Japan shares Ichiro’s unique character traits (trying to be nice here), I don’t know why they would have anything to worry about.”

Needs more “LEAVE GEFF BAKER ALONE11!!!”

Every day I hear about Seattle sports' failures. Every night I fall asleep to the sound of my own tears.

by Benne on Dec 1, 2008 6:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Damn, Corco beat me to it.

Every day I hear about Seattle sports' failures. Every night I fall asleep to the sound of my own tears.

by Benne on Dec 1, 2008 6:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

News!

This almost makes up for the want of baseball at 10 every night

by Fogel on Dec 1, 2008 4:19 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

If Bavasi were still the President of Marineria

we could look forward to the emphatic signing of Mark Loretta for 3 years and 18 million.

Can't wait for Ruskell to knock this one out of the park.

by abender20 on Dec 1, 2008 4:21 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Rich Aurilia!

PLEASE! BE RICH AURILIA!

by Coach Owens on Dec 1, 2008 4:35 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I was just scanning the list of free-agent for really bad players.

Then I saw Aurilia and remembered how bad he was for us in 2004, how he’s a first baseman now and since he’s not a Type A or Type B free agent. And it’d be awesome if they signed him.

by Coach Owens on Dec 1, 2008 4:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...

by oc on Dec 1, 2008 4:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

How the hell is he a Type B Free Agent?

What arcane sorcery is Elias practicing?

by Frosty Raptor on Dec 1, 2008 4:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup.

Elias loves counting stats, not talent.

by Teej on Dec 1, 2008 4:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It would be a bold first step for his regime.

Bradley wants money, of course. But he also wants years.

meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...

by oc on Dec 1, 2008 6:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ivan Rodriguez!

Somebody has to “mentor” Jeff Clement. Yeah.

by Frosty Raptor on Dec 1, 2008 4:44 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Scott Podsednik

I am no longer in Spokane, but I think I'll keep the name anyway.

by InSpokane on Dec 1, 2008 4:46 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Crede, maybe?

As a cheap stop-gap replacement for Beltre?

by Coach Owens on Dec 1, 2008 4:59 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Rocco? Your mom?

BOOYA! You got Slurved!

by Slurvey on Dec 1, 2008 5:19 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Rotoworld
Alan Embree told MLB.com on Monday that his agent has received interest from 10 organizations, including the Mariners.
Mariners GM Jack Zduriencik said Monday that he has made an offer to a free agent and hopes to have a response in the next 24-48 hours. There’s no particular reason to think it’s Embree, other than that it would make sense that the offer was to a reliever.

by Goose on Dec 1, 2008 5:21 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I don't even know why Embree would want to come to Seattle

If he has really received calls from 10 orgs, and this is his last year, I’d assume he’d want to be on a team with a chance of making the playoffs, and odds are one of those 10 has a chance

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Washingtonhighways.org

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 1, 2008 6:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Odds are no, actually.

Why would a playoff-caliber team sign Alan Embree?

by Coach Owens on Dec 1, 2008 6:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah but 10 organizations have offers out or 1/3 of MLB

13 orgs finished below .500, and the AL West isn’t going to be so unbalanced this year, so Oakland could contend, Detroit and Altanta still have “brand name” value, and Colorado could still reasonably contend.

So at least 1 of those ten teams are better bets for the playoffs then the Mariners.

But then the odds that the 10 teams he got offers from are the 10 worst teams in baseball is remarkably low, as all 10 of the 10 worst teams in baseball aren’t going to be chasing aging lefty setup guys to throw guaranteed money at

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Washingtonhighways.org

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 1, 2008 6:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd take a flyer on Bonds before Griffey.

Hopefully it is someone who can play SS.

"It's reassuring to know that in your life, you can have no more than 32 root canals."
-T. McCarver

by Big Jared on Dec 1, 2008 5:30 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Maybe

We’re the mystery team in for Furcal.

BOOYA! You got Slurved!

by Slurvey on Dec 1, 2008 6:07 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Gotta be a minor hitter

and I’d wager an outfielder, so I’m guessing Edmonds as well.

by Matthew on Dec 1, 2008 6:28 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Good call Matthew.

Much as i would like the “mystery player” to be a difference maker with the bat (Bradley etc.), from a budget standpoint it is probably a “minor hitter” who costs less but has a relatively good glove, someone like Edmonds.
BB wasting big money on guys like Silva, Batista, Washburn, (past) Sexson, is costing us now.

But as JI post below, Edmonds probably can’t handle CF anymore. Another possibility for the mystery guy could be some CF with a good glove and mediocre bat (also costing less than 5 million), but I don’t have a name.

by Sam Regens on Dec 1, 2008 8:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't really assume it's a budget thing and more a, any free agent who's willing to make a signing so quickly

is either a big name getting a huge deal or a minor name getting an average deal.

by Matthew on Dec 1, 2008 9:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

damn

i thought he was. oh well. still, that catch is freaking ridiculous. plus, he’s a pretty criminally underrated ballplayer.

by Woodinville_12thMan on Dec 1, 2008 11:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm talking about endy chavez.....

and on the internets do i really have to capitalize? is it english class? or is that a LL rule….

by Woodinville_12thMan on Dec 2, 2008 2:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That is indeed a LL rule.

You might want to take a look at the LL Style Guide.

by acblue on Dec 2, 2008 3:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I THOUGHT THIS WAS AMERICA!

Seriously, though, writing like an adult is not something that should be exclusive to English class.

by Teej on Dec 3, 2008 8:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If true this would be hilarious

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Washingtonhighways.org

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 1, 2008 6:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It makes some baseball sense

But from an emotional perspective it seems like GMZ is saying “Hey! I want to be one of those cybermetric GMs too!” and then read Moneyball and decided to get the same players

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Washingtonhighways.org

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 1, 2008 6:50 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

and I'm undecided if it's hilariously awesome or not

either way it would be really cheap so there’s nothing to complain about, and a reasonably high upside, and because of all that he could be flipped at the deadline if he’s producing

So I guess it’s fine by me

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Washingtonhighways.org

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 1, 2008 6:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Roster filler.

Plus Hatteberg was decent as recently as 07, and his 08 doesn’t count as a collapse.

Furcal

by JI on Dec 1, 2008 6:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

.191 BABIP

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Washingtonhighways.org

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 1, 2008 6:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Is Brian Daubach available?

"It's reassuring to know that in your life, you can have no more than 32 root canals."
-T. McCarver

by Big Jared on Dec 1, 2008 7:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No we want Dave McCarty to be a P-1B

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Washingtonhighways.org

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 1, 2008 7:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Furcal.

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Dec 1, 2008 7:30 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Is melting good or bad?

The end of your post is very confusing.

by DAMellen on Dec 1, 2008 7:57 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Garret Anderson

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Washingtonhighways.org

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 1, 2008 8:01 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

PLZ

Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Washingtonhighways.org

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 1, 2008 9:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Adam Everett

I would be thrilled if that happened.

by aws on Dec 1, 2008 10:37 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Jeez, people...

Okay, so my vote goes to Abreu.

Raul Ibanez with good defense…

This signature space for rent.

by PositivePaul on Dec 1, 2008 10:42 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Abreu is a pretty horrible defender by most accounts I've seen.

52 plays below average over the past three years, according to Dewan.

-24 last year alone.

by Teej on Dec 2, 2008 10:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Was my second choice.

There’s a chance we could get him to DH as well.

by Wilder. on Dec 1, 2008 11:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Griffey Haters...

Griffey is the best Mariner ever. If he comes back to the mariners will you boo him? I doubt it. He is better right now than Raul Ibanez. Put him in left. or let him DH. He is an upgrade from the starting DH last year right (Vidro.). I think he has a couple good years left in him, if he can play 100 games why not.

by tbirdad on Dec 2, 2008 2:01 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I will boo him if he sucks, which all indications say that he will.

Also, there’s the consideration that once he’s on the team, management will be handcuffed into playing him until he retires or face intense fan scrutiny. Everyone is an upgrade from Vidro last year so that’s a pointless argument to make and your unsubstantiated opinion of his remaining value is worthless in the face of actual projection and performance/cost analysis that’s been done here and elsewhere.

by Matthew on Dec 2, 2008 7:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I will not boo him no matter how badly he sucks

even if all signs point to him being an utter disaster =(

by seattlebruin on Dec 2, 2008 9:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Babe Ruth was the best baseball player ever

that doesn’t mean I want his dessicated corpse on the Mariner roster. When you’re talking about building a team, nostalgia is poison – Griffey’s best days are well, well (WELL) behind him at this point and I see no reason whatsoever that he should come back to Seattle for one last go-round if he has nothing to contribute. Which he does not.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 2, 2008 8:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Best hitter of all time

but what about Mays’ defense at a premium defensive position? Bonds was never awful, but he played a less critical position for most of his career much worse than Mays played CF

by seattlebruin on Dec 2, 2008 9:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

.302/.384/.552 for Mays with 338 SBs and CF defense... .298/.444/.607 for Bonds with 514 SBs and for much of his career average of above average defense.

Factor in likely stiffer competition for Bonds and those extra .110 OPS points look that much more impressive. I mean, he had a full season with a .609 OBP.

I don’t think you can really say Mays was better, but that’s just my dumbass opinion.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 2, 2008 9:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There's an argument to be had because of Mays' defense

and that Mays played in the most oppressive offensive era in modern baseball.

Furcal

by JI on Dec 2, 2008 9:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I just remember talking with Matthew about this and we pretty much came to the conclusion that Bonds is the best, period.

But that was almost a year ago so who knows.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 2, 2008 9:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think much of the Bonds' "best ever" stuff

was a reaction to his incredible prime,. If you’re gonna talk about Bonds, you have to discuss Ted Williams.

Furcal

by JI on Dec 2, 2008 9:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That was my main argument against Bonds, but Matthew swayed me.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 2, 2008 9:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Mantle has similar career numbers and had more defensive value

but his career ended a few years too early.

Furcal

by JI on Dec 2, 2008 9:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Has anyone done a park adjustment on these numbers?

Mays played in some cavernous ballparks while Bonds was able to take advantage (both defensively and offensively) of the smaller parks.

>cough>andtakeadvantageofbettersportsmedicine>cough>

by Wilder. on Dec 2, 2008 10:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It felt somewhat implied.

Bonds could have played center OK in his youth.

Furcal

by JI on Dec 2, 2008 10:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And he was well above average in left

I was referring more to his offensive peak when he was a below average defender in LF. If we’re going to say that Bonds was the best because of his peak, we have to consider that his defense at his peak wasn’t nearly what it was when he was younger and faster.

by seattlebruin on Dec 2, 2008 10:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

At his peak 2001-04

I always though Bonds was a neutral left fielder.

Furcal

by JI on Dec 2, 2008 10:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why the fucking hell would we boo Ken Griffey Jr. if he returned to Seattle?

He’s a local legend, he’s not very good anymore, and the fanbase is divided between “let’s not bring in a bad player” and “it would be really neat to see Junior finish his career in Seattle.” There’s no mention of booing him should he return. How many times do we need to go over this?

by seattlebruin on Dec 2, 2008 9:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

God damn it we'd gone so long without an irrational Griffey love post.

Look, the Griffey hate is annoying and nonsensical these days because (generally) no one gives him irrational love anymore, but you just fueled the Griffey hatred fire, which is one of the most annoying dead memes on LL. Way to go, asshole.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 2, 2008 9:37 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I just want anything having to do with Griffey to go away.

Most of the Griffey irrational love is gone, and I guess I don’t get the hate. I understood it at the time of him returning to Safeco—yeah, a lot of dumb fans thought he was the missing piece of the puzzle and it would be sentimental and cool blah blah blah, but 95% of the fanbase seems to realize it’s a bad idea to bring him back. Everyone’s just preaching to the choir, and the jokes haven’t even changed.

I don’t want to sign him, but I’m sure there are worse things that could happen than a former icon coming back to his old team and not blocking a prospect while the team rebuilds to sell some tickets. I’m pretty damn sure we won’t sign him anyway so this doesn’t matter. I understand not wanting him to be a Mariner, I just don’t understand flat out hating the guy. Yes, he’s not good, yes, we shouldn’t sign him. But the LLemming mentality of taking Jeff’s idea that Griffey is bad then beating the dead horse to death and then a bunch of people who aren’t funny trying to make jokes (this applies to anything) is really annoying.

I just don’t understand why not wanting him to become a Mariner basically turned into “He’s terrible and fuck everything about him and his whole career.” Whose family did Griffey rape anyway?

And cue something about how I’m a god damn retard in….now.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 2, 2008 9:59 AM PST up reply actions   2 recs

The more people defend Griffey

The more outrageous the claims against him are going to get. It’s solely a reaction to those who can’t be objective about him.

Furcal

by JI on Dec 2, 2008 10:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I got to watch Griffey every day and I loved doing so

But he is one of the most overrated players on the face of the planet, and I’m tired of all the over the top descriptions of how great he was.

Furcal

by JI on Dec 2, 2008 10:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I loved him too. I and I still love the memories of young Griffey,

but I don’t want the worn out tired old Griffey who can’t hit anymore.

I am no longer in Spokane, but I think I'll keep the name anyway.

by InSpokane on Dec 2, 2008 10:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We don't actually hate Griffey

we hate what he represents.

And since Jeff expresses it in humorous ways I will welcome it until the day he retires.

Furcal

by JI on Dec 2, 2008 10:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I did not read it that way ac.

It is more of a, “Jeff hates Griffey so now I should rip on him relentlessly.”

by Sec 108 on Dec 2, 2008 3:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This.

Agreeing with Jeff is one thing, but ripping him relentlessly to say “See! I hate him too! Look at me! I agree! I can be funny about it too! Look at me, look at me, loooook at meeeeeee!” seems to happen a lot these days. Not just on the Griffey subject, but that’s a good example.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 3, 2008 9:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

People who understand the projection systems better than I do

What would be your opinions of Griffey for ’08 and maybe (but hopefully not) ’09?

Something like 95% best case, median, and 5% worst case absolute collapse. Is an .800 OPS next season reasonable given that he has good health for the entire season and is limited to say 85% DH, 5% 1B and an occasional stint in a corner? I know you could find a replacement level player to put up those kind of offensive number fairly easily, but it’s safe to say that the Jack Cust’s of the world won’t draw nearly the attention of Ken Griffey, and that might just be worth the ~$5M difference between their ’08 potential salaries.

by seattlebruin on Dec 2, 2008 9:36 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I'd say Griffey's due for a ~.325-.335 wOBA next year

as DH, that makes him a replacement-level player.

His upside is probably ~.350, and his downside is horrifying.

by Jeff on Dec 2, 2008 9:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's kind of a moot point now, but this question should have read "how far above replacement is .350," not "how far above average"

since I’m unfortunately rather aware that Ken Griffey won’t even be sniffing average next season

by seattlebruin on Dec 2, 2008 10:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Fortunately, he won't be sniffing glue, either

so he should still be good for a “famous ballplayer” talking-head slot somewhere.

by The Ancient Mariner on Dec 2, 2008 4:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope we trade for Khalil Greene

though if Petco got in his head that bad, I can’t imagine Safeco would be much better. At least he wouldn’t be Yuni in the field

by seattlebruin on Dec 2, 2008 10:09 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

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