Community Projection: Yuniesky Betancourt
The fourth in a non-alphabetical and irregularly updated series of review pieces for each(?) of the players we predicted last spring.
LL/USSM Community: .291/.321/.424
Actual Line: .279/.300/.392
Popular opinion of Yuniesky Betancourt, 2005: This guy's going to be a hell of a player. A franchise cornerstone.
Popular opinion of Yuniesky Betancourt, 2006: Building block. There might not be 25 other players in baseball for whom I'd trade this guy tomorrow.
Popular opinion of Yuniesky Betancourt, 2007: A good player, and a good value. Useful regular to have on the team.
Popular opinion of Yuniesky Betancourt, 2008: trade trade trade trade trade trade trade
There is no more compelling evidence that people are beginning to understand how important it is to be good in the field than the fans' total 180 on Betancourt over the past couple seasons. Yuni came up as an exciting sparkplug of a shortstop who was beloved by casual fans and statheads alike, but despite remaining the same offensive player he's always been, slowly but surely people have turned against him, because the wizard who was once capable of turning any groundball into an easy play has morphed into a fat sack of crap in a pointy hat with stars and moons on it.
It's difficult to overstate just how significant an impact Yuni's defensive decline has had on his local reputation, because again, seriously, his hitting hasn't changed. I know last year's .691 OPS looks a lot worse than 2007's .725, and that his wOBA* has bounced around between .301 and .335, but his skillset's pretty much exactly the same as it was when he first came up as a rookie. Yuni swings. At everything. Then he runs. Some of the time he gets to first base. He's an aggressive hacker who always makes contact and rarely hits the ball into the seats. His swing rate has changed a little bit over the years, and the same goes for his groundball rate as well, but these aren't really significant, and altogether we get the sort of hitter who's mighty easy to project. .280-.300 BA, a handful of walks, and a handful of homers. Bam. Done. For years, Dave's been talking about how Betancourt's skillset gives him a low offensive ceiling, and that's exactly what we're dealing with. The Yuni we've seen at the plate is about as good as we're ever going to see him, and there's not really anything anyone can do about it.
Oh, people thought something was up in 2008. When Yuni's OPS flirted with .600 a few times over the course of the season, there was mounting concern that he had just all-around suffered a total collapse. But at least offensively, those concerns were unwarranted, as Yuni rode a hot 200 at bats down the stretch to end up within his established range. His triple slash line drop was driven almost exclusively by BABIP, and that's just the nature of the beast when you put the ball in play as often as Yuni does. There wasn't anything wrong with his bat in 2008 anymore than there was anything wrong with his bat in 2007, and going forward, I don't see any reason to believe that things will be different in 2009.
But the defense. Cursed defense.
| 2006 | 2007 | 2008 | |
| +/- | -3 plays | -10 | -19 |
| UZR | -6 runs | -3 | -31* |
| PMR | +9 plays | -4 | -14 |
| RZR | -4 plays | -18 | -30 |
* - projection as of early June; final number not posted
It's easy to argue with one metric. UZR and I, for example, seem to disagree on Ichiro, and given that the other metrics back me up, that argument is as yet unresolved. But when pretty much all of the big players when it comes to defensive quantitation come together to hold a big flashing neon sign that says THIS GUY IS FALLING APART it's way more difficult to maintain that they're wrong. UZR thinks Yuni collapsed. Plus/minus thinks Yuni collapsed. PMR thinks Yuni collapsed. RZR thinks Yuni collapsed. If you're a Betancourt supporter, what're you supposed to do? How is anyone supposed to look at this data, combine it with visual observation, and come away thinking that Yuni's any better than a mess in the field?
It's borderline unfathomable to consider that Yuni got this bad this quick, but here we are, and this is our reality. If we apply a smoothing curve, over the past four seasons Yuni's gone from great to average to bad to terrible. Four seasons. He did that in four seasons. Between 23-26 Yuni's aged like twice as hard as Omar Vizquel in one-fifth as long. He appears to the naked eye to be visibly larger than he was back in the day, and while some of that is muscle, some of it isn't, and it's not hard to imagine that this has had a negative effect on his range. Range that is an entirely different kind of jaw-dropping now than it was when Yuni first came up.
In 2008, Yuniesky Betancourt was a disaster of a defensive shortstop, and combined with below-average defense, the overall package was a replacement-level player. Replacement-level players aren't assets. They are, by definition, easily replaceable. The magician around whom we thought this team would be building back in 2005 took four years to turn into the sort of guy you can pick up for free, and were I to compose a list of the biggest Mariner-related letdowns since I started blogging, Yuni's career would be somewhere near the top. We basically just lost a blue-chipper for nothing. It's like we packed a suitcase for vacation then mistakenly picked up the wrong bag from the carousel on the other end. It's hard to enjoy vacation when instead of clothing and a camera you have to make do with documents and corn.
Projecting Betancourt now is an exercise in disappointment. The ~.320-.330 wOBA* is about what we always expected, but having to put a minus in front of the 10 in the Defense column invariably evokes a deep, heavy sigh. If you think Yuni's a -10 defender, he's a 0.5-1.0 WAR shortstop. If you think he's a -5 defender, he's a 0.9-1.4 WAR shortstop. If you think he climbs all the way back up to average, he's a 1.3-1.8 WAR shortstop. But that's as good as it gets. And considering that last year he was more like -15, it's all but impossible to be optimistic. Even given that he started to look more energetic in the field down the stretch, I can't imagine that he'll ever be able to climb back out of the negatives. No matter what was wrong with him in 2008, I'm afraid that the magnitude of Yuni's defensive decline is such that the process is essentially irreversible. While he may recover some, he'll never recover it all, and he will therefore never be the player we thought he could be.
The time is now to say goodbye and trade Yuni before his reputation around the league catches up to his reputation around here. Make no mistake: there are still a lot of front offices that love him as a player. People who don't have to watch him everyday assume he's still one of the top gloves at his position, and a recent player survey called Yuni one of the top defensive infielders in the American League. People who think Yuni is a good player are wrong, and people who are wrong and have things to trade are good people to call on the phone. I mean, the Dodgers are sniffing around Jack Wilson. The Tigers are sniffing around Julio Lugo and Alex Cora. The Giants are sniffing around Edgar Renteria. The Royals have coveted Yuni for as long as I can remember. Teams need shortstops, and teams like Yuni. This is a good combination. And perhaps now that we have a new front office in town, we'll finally be able to remove the "untouchable" tag from Yuni that Bavasi inextricably affixed and move him in return for more than he's worth. Because at this point, there's nothing to gain by letting him stick around. Yuni may be able to get a little better going forward as he regresses to the mean, but his career ceiling - which was already modest - now appears wholly unreachable, and he's not in line to be an important part of the next contending team in Seattle. Move him. Move him for the value that I'm almost certain would be offered. It doesn't count as selling low if the buyer isn't aware of the low in the first place, and I can think of few things more exciting for this team looking ahead than the opportunity to rebuild up the middle.
Do it. Do it and don't look back.
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But really people think Yuni is a defense wizard?
BOOYA! You got Slurved!
by Slurvey on
Nov 28, 2008 3:00 PM PST
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Yep...
gone at any price. If Oswaldo Navarro is a 0 < +5 defensive SS I’m not entirely sure the team isn’t better off with him than Yuni.*
*Yes, I know that might be a bit of an exaggeration, but not by too much.
by slamcactus on
Nov 28, 2008 3:50 PM PST
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Navarro posted a .287 wOBA
In Tacoma. In the majors, he’s probably a .260 wOBA guy, which translates to -37 runs below an average hitter. Betancourt’s more like -5 to -10 runs below an average hitter. There’s no chance that Navarro is 30 runs better with the glove.
by davidcameron on
Nov 28, 2008 8:31 PM PST
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Yes...
it was an exaggeration based on frustration with Yuni, not an attempt at quantitative analysis.
by slamcactus on
Nov 28, 2008 9:27 PM PST
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I would be content to see Yuniesky Betancourt wearing the hat of another team
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Washingtonhighways.org
by I'm NOT Corco on
Nov 28, 2008 3:53 PM PST
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Thanks for writing this, Jeff.
This Thanksgiving lull was really starting to get to me.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on
Nov 28, 2008 3:55 PM PST
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Is there any word on what these other teams believe would be a "fair" trade for Yuni?
I mean, how high can we even hope?
Btw, Jeff really well written post. No matter how sad it was read.
by mark sobba on
Nov 28, 2008 4:48 PM PST
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Do we have anybody who can play an average defensive shortstop?
Giving Morse another chance…. Tug? Navarro?
by Edgar for Pres on
Nov 28, 2008 5:04 PM PST
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I imagine GMZ could find a AAAA SS without too much trouble
and without spending more than a minor league reliever/$10^6 or so. Average defenders who wOBA in the .300-.320 range is I think the definition of a replacement level player. An average glove at SS may be a bit harder to come by but not by that much.
by Bearskin Rugburn on
Nov 28, 2008 5:46 PM PST
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Adam Everett
Adam Everett is a free agent, and would cost very little in terms of money and years.
He is an out-machine, but he is a fantastic defensive player. If nothing else, he could hold down the fort until the M’s get a long-term solution.
Cesar Izturis should also come relatively cheap. He doesn’t have quite the glove of Everett, but he is a pretty solid defensive player who should hit a bit more. He is also a switch hitter, and, at 29, should have some good seasons left.
Those are just two guys who could be had for next to nothing.
by Jerry on
Nov 28, 2008 6:11 PM PST
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The difference between the two offensively is pretty negligible
And Everett is only useful if he is who he used to be with the glove, at 32 and coming off an injury it’s not a sure thing.
Furcal
by JI on
Nov 28, 2008 8:42 PM PST
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But that will keep his price down.
What’s the downside? We get another year of bad SS for a low price?
I’ll take that risk.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on
Nov 29, 2008 1:54 PM PST
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Everett and Izturis will be cheap.
they are equivilent to Yuni on offense and much better defensively.
by Flamefox111 on
Nov 29, 2008 6:28 PM PST
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The best we can do is either (A) Navarro, who can't hit, or (B) Valbuena, who might be in over his head at SS
Shortstop is a giant black hole in the system. But since we’re rebuilding, that’s not really a concern of mine. I’d rather trade Yuni and deal with filling the position later. There’s always someone.
by Jeff on
Nov 28, 2008 8:13 PM PST
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Is there any chance of him getting back to Old Yuni?
As in “you weigh too goddamn much, we’re going to give you a bonus of a thousand bucks for each pound you lose” type of contract restructuring?
by craig3410 on
Nov 28, 2008 6:52 PM PST
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From Tango's Fan's Scouting Report
Which was filled out predominantly by LL readers, since I didn’t publicize it on USSM this year.
Betancourt: 39 overall, 39 instincts, 39 first step, 50 speed, 38 hands, 29 release, 60 strength, 8 accuracy
Lopez: 36 overall, 36 instincts, 36 first step, 43 speed, 28 hands, 38 release, 44 strength, 46 accuracy
Just curious – how many of you guys believe that Lopez is a better defensive player than Betancourt? Not performed better relative to position or anything like that. Just straight up, better defender. You think that if the M’s stuck Lopez at short and Betancourt at second the team would be better defensively. Anyone?
by davidcameron on
Nov 28, 2008 8:28 PM PST
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My feeling is that Lopez doesn't throw very well at all
While Betancourt is OK. Lopez would have to have significantly more range for that to make sense.
Furcal
by JI on
Nov 28, 2008 8:44 PM PST
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He's a better defender than Lopez, sure,
I doubt anyone will contest that. But it’s his bat that becomes more of a problem then; Yuni’s wOBA (which actually has bounced between .285 and .310, so let’s call it .300) would make him 39th out of 41 2B who saw more than 300 PA last year. And unlike Lopez, who still has untapped potential (though it may be deeply buried) Yuni can only get worse. His slowing down on the field is certain to translate into his BA, and I would not be surprised if his BABIP keeps on slowly ticking down.
I think I recall you mentioning here and again that Yuni could be more valuable than Lopez at 2B, and you may well be right. But what happens when you factor trade value into the equation? Lopez has a reputation as a busted prospect and a space cadet. Yuni is thought of as one of the best defenders in the league. There are a half dozen teams looking for a defensively minded SS that I’ve heard of, and I can only think of a couple of teams that might be interested in Lopez. It seems like Yuni is at once the less valuable of the two and the one more likely to bring a good return.
Really, I’d like to see both playing somewhere else come 2010.
by Bearskin Rugburn on
Nov 28, 2008 11:58 PM PST
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It doesn't really matter if his bat can stick at 2B
since our former 2B would be at SS. It would only matter if we were to have another SS.
by Mariner John on
Nov 29, 2008 1:09 PM PST
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Yuni has better raw skills.
However, from my seats you can see that Lopez makes a better first step and a better effort every time. Yes he makes occasional brain farts, but he does try.
The reason I hate Yuni is as a defender is that he does not try on every play. There is a small chance Lopez would outperform him just because he goes harder to the ball.
by Sec 108 on
Nov 29, 2008 9:29 AM PST
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I'd rank Lopez significantly higher on Throwing Accuracy and First Step
but that’s it. Yuni’s better at everything else. Release might be a push.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on
Nov 29, 2008 1:57 PM PST
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This is basically my point
No one really believes Lopez is a better defender than Betancourt. However, that’s the underlying assumption we have to assume is true if we’re going to accept the sum of Jeff’s last two posts – that Lopez is a league average-ish asset and Betancourt is a +1 WAR scrub. It can only be true if you think that Lopez is a significantly better defender than Betancourt, though.
In the WAR calculations Jeff is using, he’s calling Betancourt a -2.5 defender compared to a position neutral league average (-10 at SS, 7.5 position adjustment). He’s also calling Lopez a +2.5 defender (0 at 2B, +2.5 position adjustment). Does anyone really think that Betancourt is worse than half of the position players in MLB at defense and that Lopez is 5 runs better than Yuni with the glove?
There’s no way. A five run gap between SS and 2B as a position adjustment just isn’t large enough. I love Tango’s work, but I can’t accept that – it fails to pass the smell test.
by davidcameron on
Nov 29, 2008 7:43 PM PST
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Deal 'em both
and hope Zduriencik can pull Nelson and Hardy off his former team; pick somebody up to cover the gap at 2B until Valbuena’s ready. That’s what I’d hope to see.
That said, I think the underlying thought behind Jeff’s posts here, and others who make dealing Yuni a higher priority than moving Lopez, is that there’s no
reason for hope with Yuni, so the best thing to do is ship him off before the rest of the league gets wise, while you can at least make the argument that Lopez will get better. You don’t have to buy it, to be sure, but I think that’s the reasoning.
by The Ancient Mariner on
Nov 30, 2008 2:48 PM PST
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Lopez is only a league average-ish asset if he carries over a lot of his 2008
If he regresses back to his Marcel projection, then neither of them really serve any purpose.
by Jeff on
Nov 30, 2008 4:03 PM PST
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I'm livin on a prayer for this one.
BOOYA! You got Slurved!
by Slurvey on
Nov 28, 2008 10:01 PM PST
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No faith in the Ibanez training regimine that helped Lopez last year?
by Robert on
Nov 29, 2008 1:24 PM PST
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Hopefully Yuni really learns to Take Pride In His Defense
In seriousness, if Yuni was in 1/2 the shape Raul is in, he’d be quite a bit better. Cuban defectors have something of a reputation for not adjusting well to American food.
If nothing else we can hope he learns some professional work ethic and discipline from Ibanez.
"It's reassuring to know that in your life, you can have no more than 32 root canals."
-T. McCarver
by Big Jared on
Nov 29, 2008 4:18 PM PST
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The Twins...
are reported to be shopping Delmon Young around for someone who plays on the left side of the infield. Betancourt still has a reputation for defense that his skills don’t support. Dare to dream……
by slamcactus on
Nov 29, 2008 5:34 PM PST
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the twins arent that dumb
they know Delmon Young is better than Yuni. Span might be a possibility though.
by Flamefox111 on
Nov 29, 2008 6:33 PM PST
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True, but
maybe we could give them Yuni + somebody? Not sure what somebody they’d want, but I’d ask.
by The Ancient Mariner on
Nov 29, 2008 7:07 PM PST
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Span...
isn’t a possibility. They’re trying to trade Young to open up an OF spot for Span. They like him more, and at this point, they may be right.
by slamcactus on
Nov 30, 2008 10:20 AM PST
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Probably more like a Beltre for Delmon Young + others
Gardenhire loves Beltre and apparently the Twins were asking about his availability during the trade deadline last season. But if we were to do that trade, I’d want more than just Young.
by JLC on
Nov 30, 2008 5:05 PM PST
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Baltimore's looking for a SS
Baltimore is looking for a shortstop. Baltimore also just signed Wayne Krivsky, so clearly their front office still leaves a lot to be desired. Sure they robbed Bavasi blind, but that doesn’t mean they know what they are doing. Let’s see if Z can repair some of the damage from the Bedard trade. He’ll never get Jones back, but maybe he can get Tillman back. Although, I agree that Minnesota has more to offer and they proved with the Garza trade last year that they can be taken advantage of by a smart GM, as well.
by uneasy rider on
Nov 30, 2008 3:06 AM PST
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I highly doubt Baltimore would trade us back Tillman
by Fogel on
Nov 30, 2008 3:21 PM PST
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Yup...
Maybe a live arm like Radhemes Liz, though.
by slamcactus on
Nov 30, 2008 3:44 PM PST
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Maybe my opinion is being skewed by the Bedard-Jones trade,
but MacPhail seems too smart to give up his best pitching prospect for Yuni. His enthusiasm for AJ last winter seems to indicate that he understands defense fairly well, and if that’s true, he knows as well as we do that Yuni sucks ass.
by Teej on
Nov 30, 2008 11:11 PM PST
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