Pitching Coach On The Way

by Jeff on Nov 26, 2008 11:21 AM PST in Regular News Comment 62 comments

...An entirely new coaching staff will be around next season from the one that began the 2008 campaign. But for some, the coaches coming to Seattle are not new at all. The folks in Dallas know Don Wakamatsu well from his five-year stint as a Rangers coach.

It is all but certain that Wakamatsu's entire staff of pitching coaches will be coming out of Arlington as well. Dom Chiti was the bullpen coach for the Rangers (until being fired in August) and will be the new Mariners pitching coach once the holidays are over.

Last summer, Chiti was fired by a team with lousy pitching. So we're left with three possibilities:

1) The Rangers were right; Chiti isn't a very helpful coach, and deserved to be fired
2) The Rangers were wrong; Chiti is a helpful coach, and deserves a promotion
3) Wakamatsu thinks pitching coaches are irrelevant and Dom Chiti has a bitchin moustache

I don't know anything about Dom Chiti, so all I'll say is at least he's not Mel Stottlemyre, and anyone who can watch Josh Rupe and Jamey Wright warm up every other day without going wacko should be more than qualified to handle the whole Carlos Silva experience. New blood!

Also, Norm Charlton's surly air of antiquated disapproval is going away. I have organized a support group to help deal with the grief.

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With the firing of Fountaine I highly doubt this organization takes bitchin mustaches into account anymore

by Robert on Nov 26, 2008 11:26 AM PST reply actions 3 recs

Perhaps this demonstrates an understanding of replacement-level moustaches

by Jeff on Nov 26, 2008 11:37 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs

thought it was interesting

that Frank Wren had just hired Chiti for the FO

by msb on Nov 26, 2008 11:27 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

But Rick Peterson...

>:(

Furcal

by JI on Nov 26, 2008 11:32 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

So we got a Don. And a Dom.

Let’s hope they’re not dum.

by Goose on Nov 26, 2008 11:43 AM PST reply actions 1 recs

Dumb is spelled with a b.

Furcal

by JI on Nov 26, 2008 11:50 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs

Let's hope they're not dim

by Bearskin Rugburn on Nov 26, 2008 12:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

And now I'm done

by Bearskin Rugburn on Nov 26, 2008 12:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Rec'd for irony...

This signature space for rent.

by PositivePaul on Nov 26, 2008 12:17 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

Congratulations!

It appears you got the joke!

by Gomez on Nov 26, 2008 7:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

When I see the name Dom..

All I can think of is.. “PETER.. Whats happening! (back slap)..” “Yeah, you see we’re putting the new coversheets on all TPS reports now BEFORE they go out…”

by seamariners85 on Nov 26, 2008 12:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice tid bit from that post

regarding van Burkleo (bench coach):

"It seemed like he was into some of the technology with breaking swings down on computers and had some impressive statistical numbers he did on some of his hitters with the Angels. He hit on all the things that we work on here.

so that’s something too. Although I’m leery of this whole ‘he doesn’t cringe at the word statistics so he must be a SABR master’ thing. It’s one thing to look at and use stats and a wholly different thing to look at the right ones in the right way.

by Bearskin Rugburn on Nov 26, 2008 12:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I miss Bryan Price

who somehow managed to coax a full season of solidity out of Freddy, Joel, Tough Luck Franklin, Jamie, and the epic of GilgaMeche. Then again, with a defense of Oley, Boone, Guillen*, Winn, Ichiro, and Cameron, even the Baconator might look good.

I have omitted Jeff Cirillo. F** Jeff Cirillo

Can't wait for Ruskell to knock this one out of the park.

by abender20 on Nov 26, 2008 12:31 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

The Carlos Silva Experience

Seriously, the worst record I ever bought. :|

by section331 on Nov 26, 2008 12:51 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Funny.

by mark sobba on Nov 26, 2008 7:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Norm.

I am actually pretty disappointed about Norm’s firing. I liked the clubhouse and front office clean sweeps, but in the case of the Bullpen Coach, how much does it really matter (like any coach).

His responsibilities:
1. Help the starter with pre-game warmups (also done with the Pitching Coach).
2. Answer the phone.
3. Tell people to get up.
4. Tell people to sit down.
5. Answer questions about how pitchers are feeling on the phone.
6. Tell pitchers to get in the game.

I think Norm was qualified to do the above responsibilities and a pretty cool guy. Change for the sake of change is silly; so is blatant cronyism. I dunno. It doesn’t really matter, but I did enjoy watching Norm from the fence in the Bullpen Market.

by batura on Nov 26, 2008 2:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

He also has retarded ideas about pitch counts and establishing the fastball.

Cool guy or not, he shouldn’t be anywhere near the pitchers.

by acblue on Nov 26, 2008 2:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

He's a bullpen coach, he doesn't tell the pitchers anything about pitching philosophy.

He may have retarded pitching philosophies, but it’s not his job to tell the pitchers what he thinks. I’m not against letting him go, but a Bullpen coach pretty much does absolutely nothing but get paid to sit around and watch major league baseball with relief pitchers.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Nov 26, 2008 2:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

And you don't think he talks to the pitchers?

And you don’t think young pitchers might be inclined to listen to him?

by acblue on Nov 26, 2008 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Why would he, and why would they be inclined to listen?

He’s like pitching coach’s sidekick. The pitching coach is the one who imparts his knowledge on the pitchers. The bullpen coach is a job that you or I could do.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Nov 26, 2008 2:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Why would he?

He’s a coach. A coach that handles pitchers.

why would they be inclined to listen?

Players are supposed to listen to coaches.

Furcal

by JI on Nov 26, 2008 2:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, they're supposed to. Doesn't mean they do.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Nov 26, 2008 4:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

On the off chance that they do, shouldn't we have people that aren't wrong in coaching positions?

by acblue on Nov 26, 2008 4:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Where does this perception that professional athletes

don’t listen to their coaches come from? This perception is not just wrong, it’s stupid.

Just because someone plays a sport doesn’t mean they are stupid enough to believe they don’t need outside help. Here is how it works. If a player has a coach that he respects, be it track record, style, philosophies, integrity or whatever, they will listen to their coach. Certainly there are players who won’t listen to their coaches, but those players are few and far between. To reach the highest levels of any sport requires more than just yourself. There are too many people trying to get there for someone to be able to do it alone.

If players don’t respect their coaches, if they think the coach is phony, out-dated, or just plain dim then yeah, they won’t listen to them. But for the most part, players will listen to their coaches.

by brayden04 on Nov 27, 2008 1:32 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs

A bullpen coach doesn't discuss pitching philosophy with relievers?

I find that hard to believe.

by Teej on Nov 26, 2008 2:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The duties of the bullpen coach

Basically saying “Hey, skip wants you to warm up.” or “You ready yet? Yeah skip, he’s ready.”

It might be hyperbole to say he doesn’t discuss anything, when was the last time you saw a bullpen coach actually talking to his pitcher while warming up? They’re basically the “phone answerer” in the bullpen.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Nov 26, 2008 2:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

, when was the last time you saw a bullpen coach actually talking to his pitcher while warming up?

He can talk to them offscreen as well.

Furcal

by JI on Nov 26, 2008 2:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

And there's practice, the locker room, etc etc etc.

This organization’s philosophy has been absolutely toxic for the past five years, and a big part of that has been the org’s approach to pitchers. Even if Charlton’s influence on the pitchers was small, if he believes in those same failed philosophies, he needs to go.

by acblue on Nov 26, 2008 2:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

and just ask Norm about talking to his pitchers.

by msb on Nov 26, 2008 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

oh, and he's been a roving pitching coach in the organization

he’s talked to most of these guys as they ’ve come up in the last 5 years….

by msb on Nov 26, 2008 2:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Whatever he says during the day to day, he specified on several occasions there would be an emphasis on pitching inside.

Don’t know if there was a noticeable change in hbp numbers this year.

by dpseadv on Nov 26, 2008 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought Stottlemyre was the pitch inside guy.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Nov 26, 2008 4:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You got me on that one.

In charge of the pitchers this season is former Yankees pitching coach Mel Stottlemyre. He replaces Rafael Chavez. Stottlemyre says he will be urging his charges to pitch inside, “You have to pitch inside to be successful outside.”
Quote from here on Batter’s Box article. Only a quick search. I heard Norm talk about it a bunch during the season, maybe he was picking it up from Mel.

by dpseadv on Nov 26, 2008 5:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Dang it, what was supposed to be block quotes, not bold text.

by dpseadv on Nov 26, 2008 5:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Meh, of every game I went to this year, I never saw a coach talking to a reliever warming up.

Only the pitching coach with the starter pre-game

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Nov 26, 2008 4:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2008/11/26/673632/pitching-coach-on-the-way#10287864

Furcal

by JI on Nov 27, 2008 12:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It's kind of hard to be off screen when you're at the game.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Nov 27, 2008 9:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So your argument is that Norm Charlton could not possibly have had any negative effect on the pitchers

because you personally never saw/heard him give bad advice to a pitcher?

by acblue on Nov 27, 2008 10:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I was wondering this myself.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Nov 27, 2008 10:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Here's my reasoning for disliking Norm and wanting him to have nothing to do with our pitching staff:

Even though I have no idea what (if anything) Norm says to the pitching staff, he needs to go because of this:

Charlton also expects to see the “throwing inside” doctrine preached to Felix Hernandez. He can’t understand why Hernandez abandoned his fastball in favor of breaking pitches as often as he did last season and is determined to find out why by the first week of camp.

Per Baker, 1/24/08

That’s stupid and I don’t want anyone who thinks that way to be working any sort of a coaching job with this club.

by BrianL on Nov 27, 2008 10:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I just don't think a bullpen coach can have any real noticeable effect on any pitcher, positive or negative.

They’re the friggin’ bullpen coach. It’s not like I have to see Charlton give bad advice to a pitcher. Sure, it may of happened, but he is the freaking Bullpen Coach. There’s no reason to argue over this even if I am wrong. Which I could be. But the point remains—we’re arguing about the bullpen coach. Probably the most insignificant part of any major league organization.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Nov 27, 2008 11:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not really arguing about the bullpen coach, though.

I’m trying to make the point that in order to change a wrongheaded organizational approach, anyone that buys into that approach even a little bit needs to go. Everyone needs to be on the same page with these sorts of things.

by acblue on Nov 28, 2008 12:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I personally don't care if Charlton goes, honestly. I see the point.

I guess I just don’t see Charlton as a guy with deeply ingrained pitching philosophies. As a bullpen coach, he’s basically the pitching coach’s sidekick, and does what the pitching coach wants him to. I guess I feel a good pitching coach=a good bullpen coach. I’m not mad that Charlton is leaving or anything, I just don’t think he’s really a problem. I think us wanting the organization to be totally overhauled is a good thought, but when we disagree on things like this, it’s just searching too hard to find something to complain about. I mean he’s gone. But him staying likely wouldn’t change how the new regime teaches it’s pitchers.

I agree they should be on the same page but for a role as inconsequential as bullpen coach he can probably be told what to tell the relievers…he can be put on the same page. I guess I feel the role of bullpen coach is kind of just a puppet position, where he does what his higher ups tell him to.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Nov 28, 2008 2:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

As I understand it ...

aside from their daily duty of getting the relievers ready (balancing getting them ready really fast, or tamping them back so they aren’t gassed before they get in the game), and relaying the scouting reports on the upcoming hitters & talking strategy, the bullpen coach is a second pair of eyes on the pitchers, watching their mechanics. It is easy to find examples of pitchers citing the bullpen coach for spotting a delivery problem, and working with them on the fix.

Some bullpen coaches are former catchers; they’ll often catch the relievers, and usually they also act as the catchers’ coach — and some of them are en-route to becoming a field manager themselves.

Most are former pitchers, and in many cases are also former pitching coaches— and often the one to get promoted when a pitching coach is dumped.

by msb on Nov 28, 2008 10:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So basically you're saying that

never talked to any pitcher besides the about pitching before, after, or during games, and that the starter ignored what he had to say when he was talked to.

That’s fucking retarded.

Furcal

by JI on Nov 27, 2008 10:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It's fucking retarded that we're arguing about a bullpen coach.

Yeah, I may be wrong and hyperbolizing how little a Bullpen coach matters, but really what is the difference between the best bullpen coach in the world and the worst bullpen coach in the world? 10 runs by his relievers over the course of the season? At most?

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Nov 28, 2008 12:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, and you are the one who started it.

Furcal

by JI on Nov 28, 2008 8:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, technically, ac started this argument in response to a comment Brett made about the bullpen coach's role

From here… if we’re gonna sink to that sophomoric level of ‘Who started it’… which is trivial given it takes at least two to have an argument.

by Gomez on Nov 28, 2008 9:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

whoosh

Furcal

by JI on Nov 28, 2008 9:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Make your jokes funnier

by Gomez on Nov 28, 2008 3:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't follow.

Furcal

by JI on Nov 28, 2008 4:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Frankly, I was just tired of Norm Charlton in general.

I didn’t like him on this team as a player. He kept showing up again and again, despite the fact that he sucked, just to please Lou.

Good riddance.

by Goose on Nov 26, 2008 2:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

if he's willing to rove and/or broadcast, I'm guessing he isn't going far

by msb on Nov 26, 2008 2:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Better than

Bobby Ayala or Jose Paniagua

by PascoJoe on Nov 27, 2008 6:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Have no idea about Charlton

…for all we know, he may be the reason behind the recent ability for the club to develop middle relievers cheaply.

by rtang on Nov 26, 2008 5:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Crotch adjusting was up 11% in 2008.

by waldo rojas on Nov 26, 2008 7:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Fun fact: Dom Chiti is the son of Harry Chiti, who was once traded for himself

The Indians traded Harry Chiti to the expansion Mets in 1962 for a PTBNL… which, it turned out two months later, was Harry Chiti himself. And his rather crappy MLB career ended after that.

by Gomez on Nov 26, 2008 7:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

i think that mel stottlemyre would make a hell of a bullpen coach

all they throw in there is fastballs anyways…..

by Woodinville_12thMan on Nov 26, 2008 9:59 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Interesting..

..are there two Dom Chiti’s?

Because he was just hired by the Braves at the beginning of November as a Assistant to Braves GM Frank Wren.

Rain Delay - Two Teams, Two Coasts - One Obsession

You can also check out my stuff at Baseball Digest Daily

by RainDelay on Nov 29, 2008 9:16 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Same guy.

by marc w on Nov 29, 2008 10:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah..

…I’m slightly retarded. It wasn’t until I actually read the Baker article that it was explained to me. I should go back to my corner now.

Rain Delay - Two Teams, Two Coasts - One Obsession

You can also check out my stuff at Baseball Digest Daily

by RainDelay on Nov 30, 2008 8:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Couple points

First off, I don’t know anything about Chiti — aside from Peterson, I would like to have seen them bring Jim Slaton back — but the fact that he’s bringing Rick Adair along as bullpen coach is, imho, one of the justifications for hiring him. Not that I think the bullpen coach’s responsibilities are huge, but bringing Adair into the organization is a plus from what I know of him.

Second, has anyone asked Jamey Newberg for his opinion on these guys?

by The Ancient Mariner on Nov 29, 2008 3:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs