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Coco Crisp and Ramon Ramirez

I don't get it.

I mean, I get it from Boston's perspective - Crisp was a superfluous role player who's been on the market for years, and Epstein was able to deal him for a cheap, young righty whose only two full seasons in the bigs have been excellent. Even if you allow for some home run regression for Ramirez, you're still talking about a guy whose tRA* ranked 24th out of 218 qualified relievers last year. Which puts him ahead of Bobby Jenks and Brandon Morrow and essentially ties him with Joakim Soria and Jose Valverde. That's good. Ramon Ramirez is good. He throws in the mid-90s, he has a dynamite slider, and his changeup is good enough to keep lefties from going crazy. And he's under team control for another four years. His addition gives Boston both flexibility and the luxury of dependable middle relief, which was one of the only things Sox fans had left to complain about.

But for the Royals...okay, look, I like Crisp. He's a slightly below-average bat with an above-average glove in center field, a combination that makes him a 1.5-2 win player. Bringing him in makes it easier for Dayton Moore to trade Mark Teahen (or Jose Guillen if anyone's feeling particularly retarded) and slide David DeJesus into left, where he becomes an asset less because of his bat and more because of his defense. Or it makes it easier for him to trade David DeJesus and keep Teahen in a corner. Or whatever. It's flexibility, and for the time being it improves the outfield's range, which is always a positive. But then what? Crisp has a $5.75m salary in 2009 and an $8m option for 2010. He's a short-term addition that only makes sense if the Royals plan on winning, and I don't think they're set up to do that. They were a ~75 win true talent team a year ago, and as good as some of their young players look, that's an uphill battle they're fighting. They're not the best team in the Central. They're not particularly close. And they're going to need a lot more help if they plan to get there within the next two years.

I don't know. I guess they could surprise some people. And I guess they could always get a pick or two when Crisp goes away. But no matter how optimistic Dayton Moore may be, and no matter how easy it is to find decent relievers, I have trouble believing that this was the best thing they could have done with Ramirez. Why not explore the market to see if anyone's offering anything better? Why not trade DeJesus or Teahen first and see where that leaves you? Why not keep Ramirez and sign Juan Rivera or Endy Chavez or Mark Kotsay or someone for cheap? For all we know, Ramirez could have made an easy move to closing, freeing up Soria to start. But now we'll probably never know, because Dayton Moore is in a hurry to build whatever it is he's trying to build.

It's not an awful move for KC, and I suppose there's a little upside in there if you squint hard enough. I just don't understand it. Which can be a good thing for Billy Beane, but Moore hasn't exactly earned the benefit of the doubt.

Boston looks amazing.

Star-divide

Crispcameo3_medium

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What makes it even more bizarre

is that if the Royals are truly rebuilding they should trying to get Fort Knox in exchange for Soria, and then slide Ramirez into the closer’s role.

Yeah, this doesn’t make much sense unless the Royals are planning on Texieria, Furcal, Lowe, and CC being in Royals blue next year.

Furcal

by JI on Nov 19, 2008 11:21 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

David Glass

found half a billion dollars under his pillow so that should help.

by MartinVanBuren on Nov 19, 2008 11:22 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like this deal for KC

Relievers have a very short shelf life – it’s about as likely that Boston gets four good years out of Ramon Ramirez as it is that Crisp hits 30 home runs next year. The Royals pick a nearly league average center fielder for a fungible relief arm. They’ll get more in return for dealing Teahen, who people still think is good, so Crisp + Stuff For Teahen > Teahen + Ramirez.

by davidcameron on Nov 19, 2008 11:41 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sure, but you still need an OF

and KC doesn’t really have the money to lure a league average OF, so they’d have to trade for The Guy Who Isn’t Crisp. And if that guy has any kind of value, he’d probably cost at least Ramon Ramirez in trade.

I’m guessing you think Ramirez is better than I do, so you see him as a valuable lost piece. I see him as an average-ish reliever who got flipped for a better player.

by davidcameron on Nov 19, 2008 12:03 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Endy Chavez is probably 0.5-1 win worse than Crisp and he won't cost anything

They could probably grab Jeremy Reed for free. Mitch Maier’s already in the organization. Scott Podsednik is available. And so on and so forth. Just how important is that extra ~win to the Royals? So important that it’s not worth, say, finding out if Ramirez can close and Soria can start?

by Jeff on Nov 19, 2008 12:12 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Chavez isn't a free agent

I made that mistake earlier this winter. Unless the Mets put him on waivers, I don’t think we can assume they’ll just give him away for nothing.

You really think Zduriencik would just give Reed away? Why? If you’re the M’s and the Royals called about Reed, wouldn’t a guy like Ramon Ramirez be exactly what you would be looking for in return?

Mitch Maier is the same bat without any glove. Podsednik is like 400 years old. These guys aren’t legitimate Crisp-like answers.

And if we’re going to assume they could trade Teahen without a ready replacement, why assume they can’t move Soria to the rotation now that they’ve traded Ramirez?

by davidcameron on Nov 19, 2008 12:29 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not presenting guys who're on Crisp's level

I’m presenting guys who’re a win or so worse than him, guys who are almost freely available. Todd Linden? Val Pascucci? The list goes on.

What makes that one win so important to the Royals? They can still try Soria as a starter, but I think we all know this makes that far less likely.

by Jeff on Nov 19, 2008 12:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Crisp is 1.75 WAR...

Then Todd Linden/Val Pascucci are two wins worse than Crisp.

What makes Ramon Ramirez so valuable that you’d pass on a two win upgrade for $5.75 million and a reasonable option for 2010?

As far as the Soria-to-the-rotation thing, I don’t think this makes it any less likely. This is an indication that it was never likely at all.

by davidcameron on Nov 19, 2008 12:40 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I guess I just don't see the point

I understand that it’s always worth getting better if you can get better, but I feel like Ramirez had more potential to help the Royals in the long term than Crisp does.

by Jeff on Nov 19, 2008 12:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well,

ultimately, long term, and even short term, the Royals’ fate is going to depend on guys like Gordon and Butler fulfilling initial expectations. That, or unearthing (many) more guys like Soria, maybe Aviles. These1 win here, 2 wins there, improvements are, I guess, being made with the idea that they can contend if Gordon and Butler start fulfilling initial expectations.

If not, they’re probably looking at blowing up the roster and trading the valuable guys like Greinke, Meche, Soria, DDJ.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Nov 20, 2008 1:07 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Meche has value.

Ow.

Also, I would give my left nut for DDJ and both of them for Greinke.

by acblue on Nov 20, 2008 1:48 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Royals

What you have to remember is that we got over 279 ABs of .254/.311/.275 (not a mistype on slugging) from this character:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gathrjo01.shtml

So now the Royals replace that with Teahen as the fourth outfielder or (more like) trade Teahen for prospects. Can’t do either without this trade.

by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 19, 2008 1:06 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Royals team building is like an 8 year old solving a rubik's cube

there’s no overall strategy, they just work on one facet at a time without considering what will happen in the future.

Last year, they had a very solid bullpen. “One face finished, great!” they thought, and promptly set about breaking it up to fix the outfield side of things.

by Bearskin Rugburn on Nov 19, 2008 1:21 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wait

There’s strategy involved in solving a Rubik’s cube?

by Mariner John on Nov 19, 2008 4:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But isn't this putting too much weight

on Ramirez’s 2008 season being a non-fluke?

He had a solid season in the COL bullpen in 2006. 2007 was a lost cause for him. 2008 he spent some time as a starter and did so well, but he made over 100 appearances over three levels.

Maybe the Royals realize he might suffer from over-use next season?

Who am I kidding, the Red Sox got a good reliever for a player they didn’t want anymore AND found a way to shed salary at the same time. Sigh.

"I got my pregnant wife (the Yankee fan) with me. Hoping my kid learns to kick her everytime the Mets score." -Schifftis-

by future on Nov 19, 2008 5:30 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I need to see what Rany says about this.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Nov 20, 2008 9:36 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Royals fan living in Seattle

Several of you guys have mentioned moving Soria to the rotation. Believe me, there are many, many of us Royal fans on all the boards calling for that for a long time. But, what many of you might not know is that Moore made a big point out of quashing that whole idea about a month or two ago. He specifically stated to the media that he would not do that. So, we all gave up on it.

by kabrink on Nov 22, 2008 5:20 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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