Charlton, McLaren accuse Hargrove of "padding win total"

by ryanhealy on Jan 25, 2008 7:08 AM PST Comment 80 comments

From Baker's article this morning comes this:

The Seattle rotation was a prime topic of discussion Thursday when it came to its impact on a bullpen that collapsed last August. Newly hired bullpen coach Norm Charlton, a minor-league coach for the team last season, suggested former manager Mike Hargrove might have inflamed the problem by overworking the relievers in April, May and June in order to pad his win total and save his job.
Current manager John McLaren, the bench coach last season before replacing Hargrove as manager on July 2, was asked whether there was any validity to what Charlton suspected.
"Yes," McLaren said.

Yeah, the bullpen was used a lot last year but what did you expect when you had HoRam, Weaver, et. al. going 3+ innings a start? Was Hargrove supposed to give up and leave those guys in?

Well, at least we know that McLaren won't be trying to "pad his win total" in 2008.

This reminds me of how Mike Schooler lost his job with the Mariners. He was pretty upset with Piniella over his demotion from the closer's role and said to a reporter about Lou, "He's focused too much on winning." The next day he was released.

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Banging head on keyboard

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Alright, I feel better now

by andrewgolfsalot on Jan 25, 2008 7:18 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

They're gonna blow Felix's arm out this year. :(

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

by Phildopip on Jan 25, 2008 7:26 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Another word out of this Charlton fella

and I nominate him for the Ken Hamlin Special.

by Jordan of Boise on Jan 25, 2008 7:33 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Smart

Grover was insane with his over use of the bullpen. Overworking the pen in April, May and June does no good if your pen gets lit up on August and September because they are gassed. This was a disturbing trend under Hargrove.

Hardball Review Because we need another blog about the Mariners.

by etowncoug on Jan 25, 2008 8:19 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

There's a certain amount of sense to this...

...and I think it's a credible argument to make that it DOES take some time to figure out how to use your bullpen effectively over a season. There's a fine touch in trying to get as much out of your starter as you can while not screwing yourself over.

Unfortunately, given last year's performance, it still looks like McLaren has a ways to go before he can even START to consider these issues intelligently...

by rtang on Jan 25, 2008 8:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

McLaren

actually said in the conference that the one thing he learned is the usage of the pen is probably the most difficult part of being manager and he's going to rely alot more on Stottlemeyer and Charlton to make that better.

by MfaninAlaska on Jan 25, 2008 8:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh goodie!

Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum

by PositivePaul on Jan 25, 2008 9:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

BUT

Hargrove did what he had to do to win. And winning is everything...if you lose your going no where to begin with. Plus say we lost games that our pen won early in the season and replace losses later in the year that our bullpen blew....we would still be about the same. So, it isn't that bad.

After the game that we lost i don't think an interview with the press would go like this:
"Tough loss tonight Grover. Any regrets about leaving Washburn in after the 7th?"
"No, because I saved my pen for August and September."

Funk for '08!

by shunter160 on Jan 25, 2008 8:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But is it, you know, true?

Was the M's bullpen more overworked than others, or, more accurately, were certain M's pitchers more overworked than their peers?

No one on the M's had the innings of such 'pen immortals as Mike Wuertz, Heath Bell, Manny Corpas, Chad Qualls, Dave Borkowski, Doug Brocail, Saul Rivera, Jon Rauch, etc.

The Padres alone had three guys who had more innings pitched from the pen than anyone on the M's....and that was one of the best bullpens in years.

Do you have any data (or does Normy) that the M's big 4-5 guys (Putz, Sherrill, Green, Morrow sometimes EOF) were overworked? Compared to whom?

by marc w on Jan 25, 2008 8:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure

but I don't think you can look at just innings pitched.... middle relievers are typically going to throw more innings then back end relievers .. so you also have to look at appearances in games, and then there's the unquantifiable data of how many times you got a pitcher up to warm up and not get him in the game right away. Which is something Norm actually talked about addressing in ST with the bullpen guys, along with how many pitches they throw in the pen once they are warm to stay loose.

by MfaninAlaska on Jan 25, 2008 9:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I think ppl4life posted GS52's

stats for times warmed up vs. times entered a game. I'd consider that pretty reliable data.

IIRC, he pitched in a game about 1/2 the time he was up and ready. I think you're right that it is important and probably overlooked because the info isn't readily available. I'm not sure how to quantify the number of times warmed up in relation to the number of innings pitched.

by Jed MC on Jan 25, 2008 9:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Again though

Do we have any data to suggest that Seattle relievers had more 'ready-but-not-brought-in' games? Do we have any data to suggest that appearances in games were more concentrated on the M's than other teams?

I just think it was some sort of truism about the M's bullpen that it was exceptionally overworked and that they 'broke down' near the end of the year. Maybe there's data supporting that claim, but I've never seen it.

by marc w on Jan 25, 2008 9:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The whole conference

is available on the M's website.... there's alot more insight into things there then you get from the synopsis Baker did.

You even get the chance to listen to Bob Fontaine talk a little bit.

by MfaninAlaska on Jan 25, 2008 8:23 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

one of the things

McLaren touched on in regards to the pitching inside sequence was that the staff really struggled putting hitters away when they got them into an 0-2 account. Said that last year something like 80 hits were given up when hitters were down 0-2 to the pitching staff... so they needed to do a better job, and Felix gave up 18 basehits having hitters down 0-2, and for a guy with his stuff that just shouldn't happen.

by MfaninAlaska on Jan 25, 2008 8:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I get the Felix thing

but I don't think this was a team-wide problem. .181 BA/.260 SLG on 0-2 counts last year, vs. a .167/.235 league average. That's not too bad.

Maybe they should try finding guys with out pitches instead of finding guys like Carlos Silva.

by Jeff on Jan 25, 2008 11:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

And by "out pitch"

I hope you don't mean the Suck Pitch. That doesn't suffice.

by jtopps on Jan 25, 2008 11:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

well, suck pitches usually result in outs

and by outs I mean hits out of the park.

by Matthew on Jan 25, 2008 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey look!

We both made corny jokes! Must be Friday.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 11:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The Suck Pitch

does get the batter "out" of the batter's box, but last I checked that wasn't the outcome we're really looking for.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 11:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

FIRST!!~!

haha u suckz lol

by Matthew on Jan 25, 2008 11:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

(creeps away with his head down)

(plans on drinking heavily tonight)

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 11:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

drinking heavily

is different then any other night how exactly? heh

by MfaninAlaska on Jan 25, 2008 11:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No repercussions at work tomorrow morning

since it's Friday night.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Jan 25, 2008 11:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, it is Friday so you are pretty much right.

But in general, I try to avoid serious benders on weekdays. I'm not as young as I once was, and the honchos at work tend not to like employees showing up with raging hangovers to do accounting.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 11:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Although in a pinch,

Zip-Fizz works pretty well as a hangover remedy.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 11:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm as young as I once was.

It's awesome.

by The Alaskan on Jan 25, 2008 11:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It doesn't last I'm sorry to say.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 11:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm sorry

Were you saying something? Or were you just taking up space with your oldness? Get out my way! The world is my oyster, and I'm going to live forever!!

by The Alaskan on Jan 25, 2008 11:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

GET OFF MY LAWN!!

Damn kids.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 11:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Raul?

Is that you?
Getting ready for the season, huh?

by The Alaskan on Jan 25, 2008 11:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Check back in when you cross 30

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Jan 25, 2008 11:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Crossing 30 is for losers.

by The Alaskan on Jan 25, 2008 11:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If you do it right

you won't live that long.

Babies hate me.

by Librocrat on Jan 25, 2008 12:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Trust me,

being over 30 ain't that bad. I'm no longer invincible, but the intelligence gained is worth it.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Speak for yourself!

Why the heck do ya think I hang out on a baseball blog with a bunch of 20-somethings? I'm trying to counterbalance the effects of assimilating into an environment of people mostly old enough to be my parents.

;-)

Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum

by PositivePaul on Jan 25, 2008 1:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL!!

I thought you just liked being the "elder statesman"!

I dunno. I still party, play sports and do all that stuff. But I sure don't miss the days when I was paying too much for car insurance, my cupboards were full of Ramen and Mac n' Cheese, and going to the ATM was like playing roulette.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well yeah,

I guess if my 20s were like yours, I'd be glad to be 30, too.

On a serious note, I'm not 30 yet, but my lifestyle is that of a 40 y.o. I never partied much, myself - I just kind of skipped all that.

by The Alaskan on Jan 25, 2008 1:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Then enjoy your youth.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 1:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, yeah...

And being around a bunch of old people all the time combined with the fact, like I've said before, that I pretty much got all the debauchery/party-ness out of my system BEFORE high school, and it makes me feel THAT MUCH OLDER.

//weeps at the fact that his wife wouldn't let him buy his midlife crisis car last summer...

Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum

by PositivePaul on Jan 25, 2008 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Pull up your pants,

and take off the skirt man!!! Buy whatever car you want! Just kidding. I know how that stuff can go.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 1:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah.

We bought something w/wheels, pedals and keys and a removable top. It's brand (Mason & Hamlin) even starts with the same letter as the car I wanted (Mercedes SL 500), so, close but no cigar...

Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum

by PositivePaul on Jan 25, 2008 1:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

A piano I'm guessing?

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 1:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

+10!

Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum

by PositivePaul on Jan 25, 2008 1:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice piano.

The "removable top" thing almost threw me off.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 1:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Baby grand...

Now we just need to find a bigger house to put it in.

Well, okay, we found the house, but found out today that my wife's raise wasn't anywhere close to where it was supposed to be. So, we're not going to be able to put in our offer. Shame, too, 'coz it would've been a f'in' FANTASTIC place to host LL House Party 1...

Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum

by PositivePaul on Jan 25, 2008 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That sucks.

Similar thing just happened to me and my GF, she took a new job with a new company and got a nice raise, but it turns out that after increased costs for the commute, her insurance and other expenses, it's a much smaller raise than we thought.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 2:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

well shit man

take 15 minutes and call Geico

by Matthew on Jan 25, 2008 1:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

speaking of which

My car is probably totaled now, and the lady i hit was arrested for suspicion of DUI. Good thing i had the right of way. Lady must have forgot you have to stop at those octagonal red signs.

by marinerschas2 on Jan 25, 2008 1:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

but really?

who drinks at 11am on a friday morning?

by marinerschas2 on Jan 25, 2008 1:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Alcoholics

by patsfan on Jan 25, 2008 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

oh well

its a nice way to pocket probably $2500-3000 for a car i've been desparatly trying to sell and couldnt even get 1600 for

by marinerschas2 on Jan 25, 2008 1:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Now you need to claim whiplash

by patsfan on Jan 25, 2008 1:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i got

lower back pain. and they know it

by marinerschas2 on Jan 25, 2008 2:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If you really hurt your back,

I hope you get your medical expenses covered. No amount of money is worth ongoing back issues.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 2:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

im going to a chiropractor right now.

almost the same accident happened back in march. They totalled my car, covered all my medical (since i dont have insurance) and i ended up getting pain and suffering as well.

by marinerschas2 on Jan 25, 2008 2:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Good luck.

Whenever I hear "back pain" it always worries me a bit.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 2:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hobos.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

They didn't have Geico when I was that age.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

always an excuse with you isn't it?

In my day, if a cost savings company didn't exist, I didn't cry about it by gummit, I went out, built a time machine and got my savings that way!

by Matthew on Jan 25, 2008 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Jesus.

Did they have television?
Internal combustion engines?

by The Alaskan on Jan 25, 2008 1:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

AM Radio?

by marinerschas2 on Jan 25, 2008 1:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm too old to remember!

All I know is that it was uphill to get to and from school, there was always 3 feet of snow, and I was THANKFUL.

Prospects are under-valued.

by Thingray on Jan 25, 2008 1:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

pishay

i thought i did it right an still hit 30

I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.

by wadswerth on Jan 26, 2008 6:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Then you were obviously mistaken.

Which is a clear sign that you did not do it right, as those that do are never wrong. That's what happens when you bring those old player skills to the table.

Babies hate me.

by Librocrat on Jan 26, 2008 1:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

Babies hate me.

by Librocrat on Jan 25, 2008 11:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Speaking of this

Guess who is actually consuming decent beer tonight?

Washington Highways

by I'm NOT Corco on Jan 25, 2008 7:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

It's better than the crap you normally drink. Splurge, for you, I s'pose...

The crappy cell phone doesn't do it justice, and the presentation certainly needs work. But I'm tired, and lazy, having spent an hour cooking my Schwabische Rostbraten and Kartoffel Salat. Picked the right beer to accomany it:

Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum

by PositivePaul on Jan 25, 2008 7:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It was on sale at Safeway

so I got a couple six packs of that and Red Hook ESB whch was also on sale...and a 30 of Nasty Light ($13.99), but what can you do?

Washington Highways

by I'm NOT Corco on Jan 25, 2008 7:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Does that include the relievers?

because the pitching inside and majority of the conversation was based upon starting pitching only because relievers are prepped to pitch differently to avoid the "pull homerun" late in games.

by MfaninAlaska on Jan 25, 2008 11:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The nerve!

Trying to win ballgames!

by Gomez on Jan 25, 2008 9:02 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Fun Charlton Fact:

For years I thought he was Australian. I just couldn't see how a guy with that name and that hair couldn't be an Aussie.

by Slozbury Stouvre on Jan 25, 2008 9:18 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I can see why you'd want to avoid

overworking your pen, but as pointed out earlier, if your starters are consistently giving up 7 runs every three innings, what are you supposed to do without a swingman on the staff?

Where's Mark Eichhorn when we need him?

by Llewdor on Jan 25, 2008 9:43 AM PST reply actions 0 recs