What if they're all on the juice?

by esoteric on Sep 7, 2007 3:31 PM PDT Comment 35 comments

The Mitchell investigation, sham though it pretty much is, has received a bunch of names from Kirk Radomski. The current leaks - first, Ankiel, now Glaus, who knows who next? - seem to be at least partially related to that. I have the sense that sports reporters have been sitting on all sorts of rumors that are now being finally reported.

My question: what if they're all on the juice?

Not all of them literally, but what if our favorites turn out be PED users? Imagine the inconceivable: Ichiro linked to HGH, Adam Jones receiving stanozolol shipments, WILLIE BALLGAME'S UNQUANTIFIABLE HUSTLE A PRODUCT OF 'TEH JOOCE.'

What then? Some here have affected a jaundiced or indifferent attitude to steroid allegations, but I doubt they're in the majority. We knock on Jo-El, Franklin and Cust all the time by referring to their juicing, whether proven or rumored. Ichiro's like the nearest thing to a baseball god to me...what on earth would I do if he was revealed to be a user of PEDs? Or maybe Putz? I'm not saying there's any reason to think either one is. But then who would've pegged Joel fucking Piniero as a juicer? Most educated fans realize by now that PEDs are used by players more for stamina and injury-recovery purposes than for building huge muscles and swatting homers.

Why am I even floating these ghastly scenarios? Especially when there's no reason to think anyone on the team was involved with PEDs (except...ummm, those rumors that swirled around AB several years ago)? Because I'm coming to the unsettling conclusion that anybody could get pegged next. If anyone's seen John Carpenter's remake of The Thing that's exactly how I'm feeling right now: you might look normal, you might LOOK clean, but how can I really know?

I guess all I'm saying is that suddenly I find it hard to trust, hard to believe. In an intellectual sense I'm not naive; I understand the way the game works, the incentive structure ballplayers are faced with, the competitive spirit...I cynically tell myself that anything's possible, and I should probably just expect the worst.

But emotionally? Like most guys, my attachment to baseball started as a kid, and is still defined by a childlike belief in dreams, hopes, inspiring stories, all those silly naive boyhood things that you picked up from listening to your dad talk about The Mick or Teddy Ballgame or Spahn & Sain and Pray For Rain. And that part of me is in danger of collapsing from this scandal. I'll admit it. I believe in the magic of baseball. Kirk Gibson's walk-off homer. 1995. Curt Schilling's bloody sock. The 2001 World Series. If I start believing that those moments are all tainted by what I firmly believe is genuine cheating...then a lot of the fun will have gone out of baseball.

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In the end

Looking at this big blue/green/white/black/whatever planet, I cant help but ask...aren't we all on juice, really?

by Slica on Sep 7, 2007 3:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

We know that most of our old NFL heros

were on steroids, and that doesn't change how I feel about them. I don't agree with their choice, but I still look back at their careers just the same.

Every era had something that people were doing to try to get an edge, and every future era will have one too.

I don't see the steroids edge as any different than the advances in medical technology, training techniques, or for that matter (if you go back far enough) segregation in baseball.

They are all things that happened, some good, some bad, some horrible, but the players still had to play. It doesn't matter how many roids, greenies, suppositories, or grams of coke you take, you still have to have the skills to be great, because they don't automatically make you into Babe Ruth, Willie Mays and Ken Griffey Jr combined..

"Send lawyers, guns and money. The s**t has hit the fan"

by Thingray on Sep 7, 2007 3:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

Let's also keep in mind... nostalgia tends to edit out a lot of the negatives. Most of our heroes had a dark side.

by Gomez on Sep 7, 2007 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sure, Williams and DiMaggio were assholes..

Mantle was a drunk. Cobb and Hornsby were horrible racists. Carlton and Frank Robinson were surly jerks. Hell, Bill "Spaceman" Lee was from another planet.

But the validity of their achievements on the field was never in doubt. I don't even mind the presence of "greenies" or uppers in baseball...being more alert and hopped-up, to me at least, is a significant difference between chemical enhancement of muscles and bones and eyesight. But HGH, steroids, PEDs in general...that crosses the line. I spit the bit on that.

by esoteric on Sep 7, 2007 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

So where do you draw the line?

Maddux had laser eye surgery to correct his vision, should his achievements be less important?

Schilling had an experimental procedure done to put in parts from a cadaver so he could pitch in the WS, should we take away his ring (even though I no everyone here hates him)?

I'm just asking where you draw the line.

I don't hate Bonds because he took roids or HGH (because I beleive the percentage of use is high), I hate him because he's an asshole.

"Send lawyers, guns and money. The s**t has hit the fan"

by Thingray on Sep 7, 2007 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Big difference...

those surgical procedures are both legal.

by basebliman on Sep 7, 2007 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree,

but I was using that as a rebuttal to the post above that said "being more alert and hopped-up, to me at least, is a significant difference between chemical enhancement of muscles and bones and eyesight"

"Send lawyers, guns and money. The s**t has hit the fan"

by Thingray on Sep 7, 2007 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Legality is an easy way out

The moral indignation about this issue ISN'T about taking illegal substances. People call it "cheating", not "breaking the law".

I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not...

by TIF on Sep 7, 2007 7:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

What about legality vis-a-vis the rules

of the game? Until very recently, steroids and HGH weren't prohibited by baseball, so taking them wasn't cheating.

People vilify Mark McGwire for juicing, but he RETIRED before the rules took effect, so he could not possibly have been violating them.

This moral indignation can't have to do with cheating. It has to do with fairness, which is silly, because no one involved in the discussion can come up with even a vaguely coherent definition of fairness.

Everyone has always played under the same rules. Under those rules, they compete. That's fair.

This steroid/HGH hysteria is absurd. I cannot for the life of me imagine why anyone is even remotely interested in whether the players took the drugs.

by Llewdor on Sep 7, 2007 11:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

And I agree 100%

I don't care that players have juiced up. I think it's fascinating that steroids have taken quasi-AAAA players and turned them into useful teammates. I find it fascinating how it has prolonged careers or, in some cases like Caminiti, given a player new life. I find it fascinating that you can't even use it to help recover, which is mostly what steroids are for.

And, most fascinating of all, is the moral indignation. Fascinating, and funny as hell.

I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not...

by TIF on Sep 8, 2007 3:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

So what?

What does that prove? Alcohol is legal and pot is illegal. Alright?

The more I think about it, the more I want EVERYONE on steroids, were it legal. Have it monitored and run by MLB. Assign a doctor to each team to handle the dosages and cycles. It's not going to kill the guys, and it'll improve their performance. Why not? Atleast then we won't have to guess. Honestly, I think this seems pretty reasonable.

Willie is ours, and you can't have him

by spittle8 on Sep 8, 2007 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Even measured usage can have an adverse

long term effect on your health. Your heart enlarges, your organs bloat, it strains your bone structure and it warps your genetic code. It's not natural and it's certainly not healthy.

by Gomez on Sep 8, 2007 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, you're right

But alcohol can destroy your liver, or just damage it. Alcohol damages muscle fiber and it's a toxin that your body works hard to purge. A diet high in cholesterol can kill you and will have an adverse effect on your health. Steroids actually provide a benefit. I don't see what the big deal is. A drunk might decide to kill you. A dude cycling on steroids might get a bit of roid-rage, but other than that, he's just improving his body.

Willie is ours, and you can't have him

by spittle8 on Sep 9, 2007 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Shit, I wish that more present-day athletes ...

possessed avant-garde, countercultural viewpoints like ol'-timers such as Bill "Spaceman" Lee.

Hell, I advocate the political ideology of libertarian minarchism, the economic principles of anarcho-capitalism, the foreign policy of isolationism, and the philosophical perspective of individualism; plus, I'm an atheist. I, therefore, can appreciate fellow radicals.

Indeed, there needs to be more crazy, off-the-wall intellectuals in professional sports.

by AK1984 on Sep 7, 2007 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

What of Hank Aaron?

Until recently the holder of the sacred HR record. He used amphetamines. IIRC, he has gone on record stating that he used amphetamines.

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Sep 8, 2007 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Did you simply gloss over the part where I wrote..

...that I was less upset about the use of greenies/uppers? That's amphetamines. I even explained the reason I drew such a distinction.

In my mind, it is utterly farcical to compare Aaron's use of amphetamines with Bonds' reshaping of his body via chemical enhancement.

by esoteric on Sep 8, 2007 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why?

Amphetamines served just as much purpose, cheating-wise, as steroids. Greenies are a source of energy, and this time of year, after 140 nearly-daily games, energy's at a premium, so it would stand to reason that greenies were just as much a "cheat" as steroids are.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Sep 8, 2007 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry about that

I missed it.

However, why is it farcical?

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Sep 8, 2007 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Amphetamines are amazing

The Wehrmacht conquered France on amphetamines. Anyone who has ever been on them will agree with me, they are the wonder drug. That actually disappoints me significantly.

Willie is ours, and you can't have him

by spittle8 on Sep 8, 2007 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Are you going to tell me next

that professional athletes are as imperfect and do as many bad things than the rest of us?

I can't imagine that young, rich, empowered, entitled, and famous men would take drugs, especially drugs that would help them stay rich, empowered, entitled, and famous. I'm shocked! I'm even more shocked that people take drugs so they can get rich, etc. Seriously though, everyone I've met has done something that would scream across the AP headlines if they were famous in some sort of way.

This whole steriod/HGH stuff is going to lead to mandatory steriod use in blurnsball. It is about time for the M's to shuffle in a one-eyed sewer mutant to fill in that RHP long relief role and I don't feel like seeing any clown fundamentals at 2B tonight.

by Jed MC on Sep 7, 2007 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I bet you this guy wasn't on any PED's:

"Send lawyers, guns and money. The s**t has hit the fan"

by Thingray on Sep 7, 2007 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Um guys

I'm not exactly poo-pooing or criticizing anything. I'm in agreement with Thingray: our heroes aren't perfect but that doesn't make their accomplishments inadmirable.

by Gomez on Sep 7, 2007 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You and I are saying pretty much the same thing,

I think you just said it more eloquently and succinctly.

"Send lawyers, guns and money. The s**t has hit the fan"

by Thingray on Sep 7, 2007 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you both.

I find the outrage about athlete steroid use to be a little comical. We demand big, strong, and healthy people to be our athletes and then reward them with $$$$ when they succeed. Then we get surprised and angry when they take substances to make them better.

It reminds me of the Bill Hicks "if you don't think drugs have done good things for society, do me a favor. Go home, take all your albums, tapes and cd's and burn them. Because all of those artists who have enhanced your lives through the years ... real fucking high on drugs (not perfect quote)" idea, but applied to sports.

We pour love on McGuire during the home run chase, then years later get pissed at him for doing steriods and lying about it to Congress. But really, who tells the truth to Congress anymore? McGuire was just a trendsetter for the Bush administration that way. We even knew McGuire had andro in his locker and had more zits on his backs than an high school Knowledge Bowl team.

I'm all for admiring their athletic accomplishments, but like all people, athletes are imperfect.

by Jed MC on Sep 7, 2007 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Amen, Amen.

"Send lawyers, guns and money. The s**t has hit the fan"

by Thingray on Sep 7, 2007 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The question is.

Is it better we know who has done what, or would it of been best if we never knew this stuff was happening?

Either way, its gonna fuck up kids if it doesnt stop.

by Slica on Sep 7, 2007 5:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I think we need to start punishing people who

HAVEN'T been on the juice.

Hell, it'll save time.

These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Sep 7, 2007 7:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

They punish themselves

By not overcoming their genetic inferiorities enough to get 10 million dollar / year contracts. The juicers will eventually get their due, so I really don't understand the need to punish them more.

Oh, it's for the kids. I forgot.

I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not...

by TIF on Sep 8, 2007 3:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Regarding HGH

Am I the only person who remembers it being advertised on Art Bell's Coast to Coast AM show?

Dude used to swear by "Ultimate HGH", if I recall correctly. Looks like those Sci-Fi wackos aint so dumb.

I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not...

by TIF on Sep 8, 2007 3:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Then it's a unfortunate evolution of the game

It sucks but we will learn to deal with it in time

by Robert on Sep 8, 2007 8:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

The bottom line is that you still

have to be able to play the game. If I start taking HGH and steroids Im not going to all of a sudden become some awesome athlete. You have to be able to play the game.

Why do people look at me funny when I tell them Carl Everett did more for the M's than Griffey ever did?

by RED29 on Sep 8, 2007 12:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs