Mac is already on the right track....

by shunter160 on Sep 30, 2007 3:18 PM PDT Comment 17 comments

"I am an old-school guy and would like to see our [starting] pitchers go 120 to 125 pitches," manager John McLaren said. "Among other things, that would save our bullpen."

Hmmm...Washburn DIES at around 84 pitches, and barely anyone throws that much. Well you would be saving the bullpen...but killing the starters. I hope that is just a joke.

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I hate this guy...

I just read the article and came on here to see how much crap he would get for saying this. Why is it so clear to everybody on LL and USSM that Mac is a total idiot, yet management can't bring themselves to just find a new manager? 120-125 pitches a game? Really??

I had to laugh about the bullpen...maybe they did get tired down the stretch, I don't know, but it seemed to me as though that was one of the big strengths of the club for most of the season. I think Mac should be more worried about the M's finding decent starters in general - even if they can "only" go 90 pitches. Maybe if we didn't have Ho-Ram's wonderful 4-5 innings a game, the bullpen would have had a bit more in the gas tank. How many starts did Weaver get pulled from in the first 4-5 innings of the game?

ARRRRGGGGGHHHHH

Sorry, I had to let that one out.

by rambozo on Sep 30, 2007 3:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Raffy Chaves doesn't agree with Mac, thankfully

"Pitching coach Rafael Chaves believes pitch counts will come down if the pitchers "are more aggressive in the strike zone, work ahead in the count, pitch to contact and find a way to put hitters away."

"Another way would be to increase the pitch count, but for me that would be the second way." "

by mariners124m on Sep 30, 2007 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

What I've learned in my days

is that it's always best to evaluate managers by what they do, rather than by what they say.

And while a lot of what McLaren has to say is dumb, when you really focus on how he manages, you'll see that...he...um...

by Jeff on Sep 30, 2007 3:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't really care anymore this year

I'm going to give him another shot next year. With all the crazyness this year people tend to forget that he's only managed a half a season in his life.

He just wasn't a Major League manager this year. His priority when he took over was clearly to keep everything intact as much as possible.

I'd feel better with a manager who's "been through wars" next year but I'm not going to lose any sleep over McLaren running things. We gotta get through the offseason without making anymore HoRam/Vidro type moves first.

by ThundaPC on Sep 30, 2007 4:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

That's the ironic thing

the one guy we needed to have been through wars was our manager.

by Jeff on Sep 30, 2007 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

While on the topic

...why aren't there modern Warren Spahn's? Obviously, the current dogma dictates that you don't work a pitcher that much, but is there even anyone out there capable of that kind of output? Any Walter Johnson's? It seems like all the Kerry Wood's blow out an elbow, or a shoulder, while on a much lighter workload. What was it about those historical pitchers that allowed them to pitch so much? I'm not ignoring the Smoky Joe Wood's. Sorry if my question is ambiguous.

This guy is an asshole if he wants Felix to throw that much. It doesn't even make much sense tactically. Why push your pitchers past the point of efficacy when you've got specialists in the bullpen, waiting to shut down pitchers? I love the badass nature of the old game, but we want to win games, not bring back some long dead spirit. How absurd.

Willie is ours, and you can't have him

by spittle8 on Sep 30, 2007 8:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

FWIW

IIRC Spahn pitched through pain a lot. Plus, the talent level was thinner then, and the parks were bigger and somewhat more pitcher friendly.

Rare is the durable pitcher who's also good. Rare is the good pitcher who remains durable through a heavy workload. That's why Spahn is a Hall of Famer.

by Gomez on Sep 30, 2007 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks

Randy Johnson must be Lord.

Willie is ours, and you can't have him

by spittle8 on Sep 30, 2007 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

From my recollection

McLaren was responding to comments made by Miguel Batista.

Batista said he was happy to throw 125 pitches the other day and said he'd like to do it more often.

by Patrick517 on Sep 30, 2007 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Still ugh.

I'm far from convinced that anything above 115 pitches is wise, even on an occasional basis.

by rtang on Sep 30, 2007 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

all depends on the pitcher

Batitsta takes so damn long out there that for him 125 is probably more like 115 for a normal pitcher.

by Matthew on Sep 30, 2007 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Could be...

...but is your typical manager (let alone McLaren) smart enough to realize this?

by rtang on Sep 30, 2007 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pitch counts are horrible

If a pitcher is throwing well, I see no reason to invent a reason to pull him early. A pitcher will let you know by the way he's throwing the ball whether or not he needs to be pulled or not.

In Everett at the LL, USSM get together Bob Fontaine talked about how todays game doesn't have the great throwing arms that the game used to have 50 years ago. The reason he gave was that players started throwing to the cut off man rather than the base.

I believe that the same goes for pitchers. Lots of current major leaguers could throw 120-150 pitches a night but since baseball has decided that they shouldn't the stamina to throw those pitches isn't necessary. The result is 12 to 13 man pitching staffs.

by etowncoug on Sep 30, 2007 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

what I always found curious

is the insane amount of pre-game throwing pitchers do. and all the warmup tosses before each inning.

Considering that those workouts probably vary quite a bit pitcher to pitch, it seems odd to me that the pitch count at which starts fatigue seems to be fairly narrow around 105.

When I used to pitch, I always limited my warmup pitches between each inning to 3 or fewer while most people were taking 5-8. I also never threw nearly as much as everyone else did pre-game. I could routinely toss 150 pitches without much arm fatigue.

by Matthew on Sep 30, 2007 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

I also find puzzling the emphasis on pitch counts... while ignoring the 100 or so warm up pitches before the game and then the 5-8 pitches inbetween innings, not to mention any throwing on off days. I don't think most pitchers are totally fresh at pitch #1.

by Gomez on Oct 1, 2007 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just a point

Relievers tend to pitch better than (tired) starters. Managers in MLB seem to have been aware of this for some time now.

That, probably, has been as big a cause of 12 to 13 man pitching staffs, as pitch counts.

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Oct 2, 2007 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Because the mound is

a hell of a lot lower. Top of the rubber now is 10inches. Before 1969 (when the mound was lowered) the mound could be 15inches and some teams may have had it closer to 20inches.

That's a huge difference, and my guess as one of the biggest reasons you don't see a huge amount of innings pitched.

by kingkip on Oct 2, 2007 7:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs